$15 minimum wage

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  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,663
    cincybearcat said:
    my2hands said:
    cincybearcat said:
    my2hands said:

    speaking of no knowledge of economics.... minimum wage, no matter the amount, has zero to do with automation and AI

    it would be happening if labor was $1 per hour, nice try though

    Ummmmm how does it have nothing to do with wage? There comes a point where the cost of automation becomes affordable compared to the cost of wages. If wages are lower than the cost of automation, companies won’t install machines.  
    Automation is coming no matter what, in many forms, faster than most think... eventually it will be the more affordable option no matter how low wages are

    I don't get paid to drive my car, but that will be automated soon enough


    Well that is true for some automation. But it does take time AND humans provide flexibility as well. But yes automation is coming to basically everything.... eventually.
    Many, that's for sure.

    Things I don't want a machine to do for me:

    -Make the music I want to listen to.
    -Write the books I want to read.
    -Create the artwork I want to admire in a museum.
    -Be my counselor should I need one again.
    -Wait on my table when I eat out.
    -Check my prostate ("Oops, sorry, I was programmed to go deep.")
    -Stand over me and try to comfort me as I'm dying.

    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,674
    edited July 2018
    cincybearcat said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    cincybearcat said:
    my2hands said:

    speaking of no knowledge of economics.... minimum wage, no matter the amount, has zero to do with automation and AI

    it would be happening if labor was $1 per hour, nice try though

    Ummmmm how does it have nothing to do with wage? There comes a point where the cost of automation becomes affordable compared to the cost of wages. If wages are lower than the cost of automation, companies won’t install machines.  
    There is not really any such thing as automation that costs more than paying wages and benefits to human workers who necessarily have hour limits though, and who have to be hired, fired, managed, etc. Not in the long run.
    I guess it depends on how you are looking at it. But I work for a major manufacturer and there are many projects cancelled when it doesn’t pay out vs human labor. And many that do.  You say “long run” but lots of big companies require a 3 year payback. Another way to look at it is to put in a machine, you need to identify roughly 50% if the cost in savings for every 12 month period.
    It's not happening overnight of course. I'm talking long term in general. The major manufacturer you work for hasn't gotten there yet because they haven't yet found the right system with the right price point, and it's likely that all of those other companies that your company has ties to haven't either. That system may not even exist yet. It is going to be more like a chain reaction thing, really. Companies will eventually be forced to switch over simply to be competitive and to jive with the rest of the industry. But it most likely will eventually. And of course that doesn't mean that zero human labour will be needed at some point. The estimates are up to 50% of the work force getting replaced by AI and/or automation eventually, over time. That is why more and more government are starting to take a truly serious look at universal income strategies.

    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,836
    Yes - and why I suggest to my 10 year old to go into electrical engineering and focus on power controls and information systems :)
    hippiemom = goodness
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,663
    cincybearcat said:
    Yes - and why I suggest to my 10 year old to go into electrical engineering and focus on power controls and information systems :)
    Good choice. 

    At one point I would have suggested to young adults or older kids to look into some kind of work in a medical field.  Right now there are about 65 million baby boomers are at near retirement age (not me, the government screwed up my DL and birth certificate which indicate I'm almost 67 when I'm actually  only 35).  When they get into their 70's, 80's and older, they will be flooding the health care field.  Will automation take care of their needs? 

    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • unsung
    unsung I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
    PJ_Soul said:
    Minimum wage should be based on local economics only. Each local government should be determining it within their city/municipal lines, and they should HAVE to base it on a set cost of living calculation that is determined and enforced by the provincial (or state) government, and based on local economic statistics. That is really the only truly fair system that I can think of.
    I agree.

    Now what if it was set to $1/hr?  Or none at all?
  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    unsung said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Minimum wage should be based on local economics only. Each local government should be determining it within their city/municipal lines, and they should HAVE to base it on a set cost of living calculation that is determined and enforced by the provincial (or state) government, and based on local economic statistics. That is really the only truly fair system that I can think of.
    I agree.

    Now what if it was set to $1/hr?  Or none at all?

    I guess that would be fine, if local economics were such that everything was free.
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 42,235
    oftenreading said:
    unsung said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Minimum wage should be based on local economics only. Each local government should be determining it within their city/municipal lines, and they should HAVE to base it on a set cost of living calculation that is determined and enforced by the provincial (or state) government, and based on local economic statistics. That is really the only truly fair system that I can think of.
    I agree.

    Now what if it was set to $1/hr?  Or none at all?

    I guess that would be fine, if local economics were such that everything was free.
    And if you were comfortable trading your daughter for a goat.
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  • mace1229
    mace1229 Posts: 9,831
    edited July 2018
    brianlux said:
    A straight across the board minimum wage proposition is a classic example of limited, uncreative, wall eyed thinking.   It boggles my mind that some much more reasonable factors are not considered--  all of which should be geared toward providing a living wage for all full-time main breadwinner workers.  Two such considerations immediately come to my mind:

    Scaling living wages to the cost of living in different areas.  $15 an hours is not a living wage in San Francisco.  It is a living wage in Placerville, California.  A nationwide minimum wage makes absolutely no sense.

    Why not have different minimum wages for full-time workers who are the main bread winners for a family and a lower minimum wage for people like the elderly who are trying to supplement their meager post-career income, or for students who are trying to help pay for their schooling, or for high school students who just want to gain some work experience?  My wife hires just those kinds of people at her bookstore (I'm my own boss and I get paid really damn poorly any more but I'm also semi-retired, so it's my choice).  She cannot afford to pay a part-time employee who cleans books $15 an hour.  She and here business partner will either have to work harder and longer (not a good choice as they are both over 65) or decrease the quality of their inventory (not a good choice in a type of business that is struggling enough as it is).  Small businesses should be able to hire part-time workers like students or retirees  without having to pay $15 an hour. 

    Small minded, short-term and illogical thinking.  Way to go, America.


    I agree, except it seems impossible to enforce the second, different minimum wages for “breadwinners.”
    in theory that sounds great, but wouldn’t everyone just hire 2 part-time employees at $10/hr instead of 1 “breadwinner” at $15? That would just be pricing the breadwinners out of a job.
    i like that idea, because just about everyone against a higher min wage, like myself, just can’t picture paying some part time high school student $15/hr to flip burgers and mop floors. So the idea of different tiers for mimimum wage sounds great to me, I just can’t imagine it working out well.
    i guess it may work if there was a required ratio of employees, have to hire 1 “breadwinner” for every 3 or 4 part timers or something.
    Post edited by mace1229 on
  • Meltdown99
    Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739
    PJ_Soul said:
    Meltdown99 said:
    my2hands said:
    cincybearcat said:
    my2hands said:

    speaking of no knowledge of economics.... minimum wage, no matter the amount, has zero to do with automation and AI

    it would be happening if labor was $1 per hour, nice try though

    Ummmmm how does it have nothing to do with wage? There comes a point where the cost of automation becomes affordable compared to the cost of wages. If wages are lower than the cost of automation, companies won’t install machines.  
    Automation is coming no matter what, in many forms, faster than most think... eventually it will be the more affordable option no matter how low wages are

    I don't get paid to drive my car, but that will be automated soon enough


    I doubt it. ... I was told back in the 70's I'd have my own personnel jet pack ... I'm still waiting.
    Oh yeah? Who told you that? A 70s authority on jet pack development? :lol:
    Automation is obviously happening already and actual reality informs us that it's moving forward - it's not an opinion but a fact..... Come on now, you didn't actually have any kind of real point in that comment, right? Just a joke, yeah? 
    I took the talk of jetpacks about as serious as I do driverless.  They'll never be made for the masses, they mostly appeal to lazy people or bad drivers...

     
    Give Peas A Chance…
  • Meltdown99
    Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739
    If you are living in one of these ridiculously expensive cities only making 12-15 an hour, maybe they could be offered assistance to re-locate to more affordable locations...$15 an hour in some of these large cities barely pays your bills...
    Give Peas A Chance…
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,663
    Meltdown99 said:
    If you are living in one of these ridiculously expensive cities only making 12-15 an hour, maybe they could be offered assistance to re-locate to more affordable locations...$15 an hour in some of these large cities barely pays your bills...
    A little off topic, but this reminds me of how incredibly sad it is for me to know that only the very wealthy can afford to live in a place like San Francisco any more.  I lived there from 1969 to 1973 working minimum wage jobs (which was $1.60 an hour back then).  I shared a three bedroom flat with a couple of guys in the Upper Haight with an awesome view, with sole use of the garage and roof top deck.  I could not afford to rent a dog house there today.  The tech industry ruined my beloved city.  
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • Meltdown99
    Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739
    brianlux said:
    Meltdown99 said:
    If you are living in one of these ridiculously expensive cities only making 12-15 an hour, maybe they could be offered assistance to re-locate to more affordable locations...$15 an hour in some of these large cities barely pays your bills...
    A little off topic, but this reminds me of how incredibly sad it is for me to know that only the very wealthy can afford to live in a place like San Francisco any more.  I lived there from 1969 to 1973 working minimum wage jobs (which was $1.60 an hour back then).  I shared a three bedroom flat with a couple of guys in the Upper Haight with an awesome view, with sole use of the garage and roof top deck.  I could not afford to rent a dog house there today.  The tech industry ruined my beloved city.  
    I remember reading an article about how expensive San Francisco is.  People struggle just to find a room to rent.  Life is getting less affordable everyday.  Where I live, 5 years ago houses on my street houses were selling 130-140, now I'm listing at 239 and will generate a bidding war.  Believe me, I never thought I would see the day real estate in my area would cause a bidding.  3 main factors, lack of availability, its still affordable, and our housing prices were long over due to shoot up.  I do love real estate...

     I'm not saying force people to leave, but give them assistance if they want to re-locate somewhere more affordable.
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  • flywallyfly
    flywallyfly Posts: 1,453
    my2hands said:

    minimum wage, no matter the amount, has zero to do with automation and AI

    nice try though

    Might wanna edit the entire thing or brush up on economics.
  • Meltdown99
    Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739
    flywallyfly said:
    my2hands said:

    minimum wage, no matter the amount, has zero to do with automation and AI

    nice try though

    Might wanna edit the entire thing or brush up on economics.
    It has everything to do with economics...because it sure as hell has nothing to do with customer service,,,what's funny is that business don't learn their lesson.  Banks at one time were pushing people to the ATM machines by reduced hours and poor service ... now they many banks offer increased hours (Saturday and Sunday) and much better customer service.
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  • my2hands
    my2hands Posts: 17,117
    Meltdown99 said:
    flywallyfly said:
    my2hands said:

    minimum wage, no matter the amount, has zero to do with automation and AI

    nice try though

    Might wanna edit the entire thing or brush up on economics.
    It has everything to do with economics...because it sure as hell has nothing to do with customer service,,,what's funny is that business don't learn their lesson.  Banks at one time were pushing people to the ATM machines by reduced hours and poor service ... now they many banks offer increased hours (Saturday and Sunday) and much better customer service.
    And I've used a bank teller once in the last 5 years
  • my2hands
    my2hands Posts: 17,117
    flywallyfly said:
    my2hands said:

    minimum wage, no matter the amount, has zero to do with automation and AI

    nice try though

    Might wanna edit the entire thing or brush up on economics.
    No need to brush up, I'm not an economic expert, but I don't need to be one to know the future of automation has nothing to do with the minimum wage. It's a nice attempt by the right wing business interests to create a false narrative/talking point to try and combat the push for higher minimum wages though, I'll give them that. Some people are obviously running with it ;)

    I edited my original comment to he nicer, not change my point
  • Meltdown99
    Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739
    So only right leaning business  people want automation ... got ya.
    Give Peas A Chance…
  • my2hands
    my2hands Posts: 17,117
    Meltdown99 said:
    So only right leaning business  people want automation ... got ya.
    Yeah, sure, that's what I said

    Lol, read it again 

    Automation is a talking point being used to discredit minimum wage increases... its been floated out and some people are running with it, I've seen the same argument against minimum wage increases in a few places now.
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,836
    my2hands said:
    Meltdown99 said:
    So only right leaning business  people want automation ... got ya.
    Yeah, sure, that's what I said

    Lol, read it again 

    Automation is a talking point being used to discredit minimum wage increases... its been floated out and some people are running with it, I've seen the same argument against minimum wage increases in a few places now.
    I'm still not sure I understand you.  Business take into account all the cost of a person (wages, benefits, etc) and the cost of a machine.  They require a specific return on investment (each company will be different) and if buying the machine results in a savings that equals their required return on investment, they go with the automation.  Wages/Benefits play right into the equation.  

    The reality is that as machines/tech gets cheaper, there are a lot of low skilled jobs today that will eventually be taken over by automation, but an increase in labor costs will certainly speed that up.  

    Taking out whether or not you want or don't want a raise in the minimum wage, those are the facts.  So what are you saying exactly when you say wages/benefits don't matter?
    hippiemom = goodness
  • Meltdown99
    Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739
    my2hands said:
    Meltdown99 said:
    So only right leaning business  people want automation ... got ya.
    Yeah, sure, that's what I said

    Lol, read it again 

    Automation is a talking point being used to discredit minimum wage increases... its been floated out and some people are running with it, I've seen the same argument against minimum wage increases in a few places now.
    I'm not really sure if your serious or not ...
    Give Peas A Chance…

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