Police abuse

PJ_Soul said:

I wonder how the gun rights champions would feel about fake guns being outlawed, in an effort to save kids from being shot for carrying one, and to save them from mixing the idea of guns and toys into one dangerous combo, and also save cops from shooting a kid with one? Would gun nuts oppose this because it would disturb their precious gun culture? 

How are fake guns a part of gun culture when they are um, fake?
i m pretty sure it s a federal law that requires all fake guns to have their tips painted bright orange in order to differiantitate from real guns. The problem is morons like to paint over the orange so it looks real.  

That's good advice, but you might not have time to comply at all, let alone comply with simultaneous commands to get on the ground, put your hands up, and drop the weapon.

Yeah, the police have to make split second decisions and take lightning fast actions, but police apologists refuse to acknowledge that so do citizens, and without any training.

I believe in due process.  Labeling everyone who comes into contact with police as a criminal or suspect creates an unfair burden on citizens to prove their innocence and encourages police to disregard people's rights as citizens and humans.

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

rgambs said:

I believe in due process.  Labeling everyone who comes into contact with police as a criminal or suspect creates an unfair burden on citizens to prove their innocence and encourages police to disregard people's rights as citizens and humans.

Even when they are waving a gun and threatening police? Remember, we haven't been talking of 'everyone who comes into contact with police'... we've been talking of people armed and potentially dangerous.

It depends, do we have evidence beyond the word of police officers?  That word isn't worth any more than the credit you give it.
Was Tamir Rice waving a gun around and threatening police?  What about that guy laying on his back with his hands in the air?
How many times does this need to play out before we start seriously documenting police interactions?

Lives have been lost and changed, cities destroyed for generations by bad police and the pro-cop attitude.  
Now is the time that we should dramatically increase the standards for police work in here in every way.

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

rgambs said:

Lives have been lost and changed, cities destroyed for generations by bad police and the pro-cop attitude.  
Now is the time that we should dramatically increase the standards for police work in here in every way.

Agreed, but let's at least discern what good police work is and what bad police work is.

To the cop basher (such a stud yourself)... everytime a criminal gets shot wielding a weapon and defying the police... it's bad police work. That's simply not the case.

We disagree.  
The standard for shooting a citizen to death should be "posed an immediate threat" and not "had a weapon, didn't comply".
Under your system, Tamir Rice is a case of good police work.  Under my system, he is a living teenager.

I just refreshed my memory of Tamir. I won't argue it was a tragedy, and incredibly sad.
Unfortunately, there are parts i this country where 12 and 13 year olds are in gangs and have a gun. SO what do you want the police to do? Wait until someone gets shot?
It is a sad story, but I place zero fault on the police in that situation. It was a toy gu where the orange tip had been removed, he had been pointing it at people, reached for it in his waistband when police arrived. Seriously, what do they need to do, wait until shots are fired before they intervene?  I certainly don't expect that.
I have seen bad examples of police work, I dont argue that they don't exist. I argue that it seems like far too many police shootings now are claimed to be "abuse" when they are not.  I wouldn't give those cops a medal for great police work, but I can't fault them for what happened either, given the information available to them and the circumstances. It was a tragedy, and I'mm sure those cops think about it every day.

The standard for shooting is "posed an immediate threat" and not "had a weapon" as you suggested. Someone reaching for a gun in their waistband is an IMMEDIATE threat.

Under your system you also have 2 dead cops.

So if reaching for a gun isn't an immediate threat, what is? When he points it at you? When he fires the first round? When the first person get shot? WHat someone actually dies? When, in your opinion, is an armed person an immediate threat? 

rgambs said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

rgambs said:

Lives have been lost and changed, cities destroyed for generations by bad police and the pro-cop attitude.  
Now is the time that we should dramatically increase the standards for police work in here in every way.

Agreed, but let's at least discern what good police work is and what bad police work is.

To the cop basher (such a stud yourself)... everytime a criminal gets shot wielding a weapon and defying the police... it's bad police work. That's simply not the case.

We disagree.  
The standard for shooting a citizen to death should be "posed an immediate threat" and not "had a weapon, didn't comply".
Under your system, Tamir Rice is a case of good police work.  Under my system, he is a living teenager.

It's not that black and white and never will be. There always needs to be a high standard when it comes to police officers because they can immediately take a life or have their own taken. You mentioned above how confusing a citizen can feel during one of these situations because they are not trained and are being given multiple commands. Ok, I understand the multiple commands thing, which is for the police officers to make clear. They are trained to run that situation the same every time so if they are giving conflicting orders that's an issue that should be corrected and hammered home. The only statement police should be making to an armed individual is to put down/drop the weapon if they are holding it or to put up their hands if it is not in their control. Telling someone to put up their hands while holding a weapon will result in an issue so that's on the cop and they should be held accountable if they shoot in that situation. Other than that, I really don't know what citizens need to be trained on. Parents should be telling their kids what to do in the event they are stopped by the police or encountered in public. You keep your hands out, don't make any sudden moves and listen to what they ask. Have people been shot under those circumstance, absolutely, but those are the exception where the cop was wrong, that doesn't mean you judge every interaction you have that way.

Setting the standard that a police officer cannot use deadly force until deadly force is attempted against them is ridiculous. You want "citizens" to be given the chance to show they won't use the gun. Most of the videos where cops are brutally killed because they failed to use deadly force are because they kept waiting and were unsure if they could/should shoot. Police abuse is one thing to discuss that covers a lot of areas, but when it comes to police shootings there is very rarely a time where an officer has intentionally shot someone knowing they didn't need to. That's an abuse. Shooting someone who is presenting a threat to the public or their own safety, is not abuse of power. You may want to call it poor judgment if a reasonable person wouldn't/shouldn't have felt threatened, but unless they had the intention of shooting/killing someone for no reason, it's not an abuse.

I've said this before and I'll say it again, I get a kick out of the fact that a whole thread is dedicated to police abuse, but we ignore the abuses of the rest of the working world. Yep, I get it, a cop can kill you with a gun, but you know what, every aspect of that incident will be made public, is usually recorded and will be scrutinized by every Joe blow in the country. Yet, a doctor can fuck up medication dosages, operations, diagnoses, etc. which lead to long term suffering and death, but since it doesn't happen instantly most times and isn't open to the public to know, it goes unnoticed. Same with corporations, lawyers, politicians, bankers, etc. They all have abuse of power that is ultimately leading to the suffering and deaths of millions, but lets only focus on the police officers because they're an easy target.
 

rgambs said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

rgambs said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

rgambs said:

Lives have been lost and changed, cities destroyed for generations by bad police and the pro-cop attitude.  
Now is the time that we should dramatically increase the standards for police work in here in every way.

Agreed, but let's at least discern what good police work is and what bad police work is.

To the cop basher (such a stud yourself)... everytime a criminal gets shot wielding a weapon and defying the police... it's bad police work. That's simply not the case.

We disagree.  
The standard for shooting a citizen to death should be "posed an immediate threat" and not "had a weapon, didn't comply".
Under your system, Tamir Rice is a case of good police work.  Under my system, he is a living teenager.

I knew we would disagree. You're too far gone to see any middle ground.

No... Tamir was not a good case of
police work.

Under your rule... the cops who defended themselves against the knife wielding maniac (and never retreated to their car... drove away... and let the guy cool down) would lose their badges and face criminal charges.

You are incapable of discussing this topic in a mature way.

Give me a break.

That is exactly what you said in the moment when that case came up. I keep referring to it because it so clearly demonstrates how ridiculous you are approaching this material.

You've never once sided with police on any of the cases discussed at length on these boards. You've claimed abuse every single time. So... don't speak to anyone's limitations on this topic.

rgambs said:

mace1229 said:

I just refreshed my memory of Tamir. I won't argue it was a tragedy, and incredibly sad.
Unfortunately, there are parts i this country where 12 and 13 year olds are in gangs and have a gun. SO what do you want the police to do? Wait until someone gets shot?
It is a sad story, but I place zero fault on the police in that situation. It was a toy gu where the orange tip had been removed, he had been pointing it at people, reached for it in his waistband when police arrived. Seriously, what do they need to do, wait until shots are fired before they intervene?  I certainly don't expect that.
I have seen bad examples of police work, I dont argue that they don't exist. I argue that it seems like far too many police shootings now are claimed to be "abuse" when they are not.  I wouldn't give those cops a medal for great police work, but I can't fault them for what happened either, given the information available to them and the circumstances. It was a tragedy, and I'mm sure those cops think about it every day.

The standard for shooting is "posed an immediate threat" and not "had a weapon" as you suggested. Someone reaching for a gun in their waistband is an IMMEDIATE threat.

Under your system you also have 2 dead cops.

So if reaching for a gun isn't an immediate threat, what is? When he points it at you? When he fires the first round? When the first person get shot? WHat someone actually dies? When, in your opinion, is an armed person an immediate threat? 

That is not a correct summary of the Tamir Rice case as supported by evidence.  You have accepted the official police version which has elements omitted and details which are not corroborated by the evidence available.

The video is inconclusive as to whether he was reaching for the weapon, and the only thing that is truly definitive is that the officer assumed the citizen to be an immediate threat prior to actually assessing him.

If we're going to talk about Rice, then lets make sure to point out how badly the dispatcher messed up. A costly mistake for sure and I'm sure they feel horrible about it. Mistakes happen isn't acceptable in the LE world, but they are going to happen because people make mistakes, so what is the solution? Rice is not an abuse of power situation either. It would be really nice if we were like Australia and guns were not an option, but until then, incidents like this will continue to happen.