Police abuse

dignin

So we have reached the point where some here think the Tamir Rice shooting was justified. That's crazy town, and one of the reasons I don't participate in this thread very much anymore.

PJ_Soul

mcgruff10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

I wonder how the gun rights champions would feel about fake guns being outlawed, in an effort to save kids from being shot for carrying one, and to save them from mixing the idea of guns and toys into one dangerous combo, and also save cops from shooting a kid with one? Would gun nuts oppose this because it would disturb their precious gun culture? 

How are fake guns a part of gun culture when they are um, fake?
i m pretty sure it s a federal law that requires all fake guns to have their tips painted bright orange in order to differiantitate from real guns. The problem is morons like to paint over the orange so it looks real.  

Fake guns are a part of gun culture because they teach kids that guns are fun to use and it also encourages games that involve pretending to use guns and to kill people, etc., and normalizes the presence of firearms in a kid's mind. I think that seems pretty obvious. 

tbergs

dignin said:

So we have reached the point where some here think the Tamir Rice shooting was justified. That's crazy town, and one of the reasons I don't participate in this thread very much anymore.

It does feel pretty worthless to go back and forth on some of these topics. Our world and current societal climate have created these situations so I get hung up on the fact that we are labeling something as an abuse of power that is a culturally created system. People fear cops because they carry guns and can shoot you if they fear for their safety and cops fear people because they can carry guns and shoot them. This problem is never going away because we're focusing on the wrong root cause; human judgment. Our judgment is flawed and we are prone to make mistakes. No amount of training will fix that to a 100% perfection. Cops, dispatchers, witnesses, etc., will always fail on some level. Firing or jailing those making these errors is only a situational sanction that will not prevent it from happening again. It's as dumb as those arguing the death penalty is a deterrent or harsher sentencing will reduce crime. These aren't planned out acts of abuse, at least none of the one's I've heard about are. 

rgambs

tbergs said:

dignin said:

So we have reached the point where some here think the Tamir Rice shooting was justified. That's crazy town, and one of the reasons I don't participate in this thread very much anymore.

It does feel pretty worthless to go back and forth on some of these topics. Our world and current societal climate have created these situations so I get hung up on the fact that we are labeling something as an abuse of power that is a culturally created system. People fear cops because they carry guns and can shoot you if they fear for their safety and cops fear people because they can carry guns and shoot them. This problem is never going away because we're focusing on the wrong root cause; human judgment. Our judgment is flawed and we are prone to make mistakes. No amount of training will fix that to a 100% perfection. Cops, dispatchers, witnesses, etc., will always fail on some level. Firing or jailing those making these errors is only a situational sanction that will not prevent it from happening again. It's as dumb as those arguing the death penalty is a deterrent or harsher sentencing will reduce crime. These aren't planned out acts of abuse, at least none of the one's I've heard about are. 

If you take that statement and apply it to any other career does it not sound foolish?
Should we have that tolerance and low standard for medicine, law, economics??
Absolutely not.  If there is a problem with judgement, you work to fix it and come as close as you can to elimination.
It really is that simple.

tbergs

rgambs said:

tbergs said:

rgambs said:

mace1229 said:

I just refreshed my memory of Tamir. I won't argue it was a tragedy, and incredibly sad.
Unfortunately, there are parts i this country where 12 and 13 year olds are in gangs and have a gun. SO what do you want the police to do? Wait until someone gets shot?
It is a sad story, but I place zero fault on the police in that situation. It was a toy gu where the orange tip had been removed, he had been pointing it at people, reached for it in his waistband when police arrived. Seriously, what do they need to do, wait until shots are fired before they intervene?  I certainly don't expect that.
I have seen bad examples of police work, I dont argue that they don't exist. I argue that it seems like far too many police shootings now are claimed to be "abuse" when they are not.  I wouldn't give those cops a medal for great police work, but I can't fault them for what happened either, given the information available to them and the circumstances. It was a tragedy, and I'mm sure those cops think about it every day.

The standard for shooting is "posed an immediate threat" and not "had a weapon" as you suggested. Someone reaching for a gun in their waistband is an IMMEDIATE threat.

Under your system you also have 2 dead cops.

So if reaching for a gun isn't an immediate threat, what is? When he points it at you? When he fires the first round? When the first person get shot? WHat someone actually dies? When, in your opinion, is an armed person an immediate threat? 

That is not a correct summary of the Tamir Rice case as supported by evidence.  You have accepted the official police version which has elements omitted and details which are not corroborated by the evidence available.

The video is inconclusive as to whether he was reaching for the weapon, and the only thing that is truly definitive is that the officer assumed the citizen to be an immediate threat prior to actually assessing him.

If we're going to talk about Rice, then lets make sure to point out how badly the dispatcher messed up. A costly mistake for sure and I'm sure they feel horrible about it. Mistakes happen isn't acceptable in the LE world, but they are going to happen because people make mistakes, so what is the solution? Rice is not an abuse of power situation either. It would be really nice if we were like Australia and guns were not an option, but until then, incidents like this will continue to happen.

The solution is to hold people responsible for their mistakes.  Duh.
The solution is to screen, train, and compensate people better so that they make fewer mistakes.  

Should the officer and dispatching be in jail?  Probably not, but they sure as shit shouldn't be in the field any more!

I guess I'll entertain you one more time, but I don't know why I bother. You seem to always be on a higher ground in every conversation on these boards.

To your first response, obviously. Who isn't being held responsible? Just because someone isn't fired doesn't mean they aren't held responsible.

To your second point, again, obviously, but what does that even mean. These position are screened and rigorously trained. Standards have increased nationwide in the last 30 years, but I agree that some states still lag behind in the requirements. Nobody under 21 should be allowed to be a cop. In MN there are strict requirements to even be eligible for a license and before hiring the agency will still make you go through an initial written test, several interviews, a physical, physical skills test, psychological exams (both in person and written) and then once hired, you will go through all that department's training (policies, defensive tactics, use of force, defensive driving, etc.) and then work with multiple Field Training Officers for the first several months, during which time you will be graded daily on your performance and in most cases go before a review board monthly before you are cleared to be on your own, all while still being on a year of probation and required to obtain at least 40 CE's every 3 years and go through firearms training multiple times a year. Maybe there are still Mayberry style departments out there and if so, that needs to change, but if you were to look at the training file on any of the officers involved in a shooting, it's not like it's being neglected or lacking.

As for your last point, should they be out of the field? That depends on the circumstances and outcome of the investigation in to the incident. If based on all the evidence the shooting is ruled unjustified, then yes. As for the dispatcher, maybe. You'll have a hard time firing anyone in a union if there are no other disciplinary records.

The problem is that we want perfect people to do these jobs, but anyone who seems perfect is only one decision away from that mistake that could alter someone's life forever.

tbergs

rgambs said:

tbergs said:

rgambs said:

mace1229 said:

I just refreshed my memory of Tamir. I won't argue it was a tragedy, and incredibly sad.
Unfortunately, there are parts i this country where 12 and 13 year olds are in gangs and have a gun. SO what do you want the police to do? Wait until someone gets shot?
It is a sad story, but I place zero fault on the police in that situation. It was a toy gu where the orange tip had been removed, he had been pointing it at people, reached for it in his waistband when police arrived. Seriously, what do they need to do, wait until shots are fired before they intervene?  I certainly don't expect that.
I have seen bad examples of police work, I dont argue that they don't exist. I argue that it seems like far too many police shootings now are claimed to be "abuse" when they are not.  I wouldn't give those cops a medal for great police work, but I can't fault them for what happened either, given the information available to them and the circumstances. It was a tragedy, and I'mm sure those cops think about it every day.

The standard for shooting is "posed an immediate threat" and not "had a weapon" as you suggested. Someone reaching for a gun in their waistband is an IMMEDIATE threat.

Under your system you also have 2 dead cops.

So if reaching for a gun isn't an immediate threat, what is? When he points it at you? When he fires the first round? When the first person get shot? WHat someone actually dies? When, in your opinion, is an armed person an immediate threat? 

That is not a correct summary of the Tamir Rice case as supported by evidence.  You have accepted the official police version which has elements omitted and details which are not corroborated by the evidence available.

The video is inconclusive as to whether he was reaching for the weapon, and the only thing that is truly definitive is that the officer assumed the citizen to be an immediate threat prior to actually assessing him.

If we're going to talk about Rice, then lets make sure to point out how badly the dispatcher messed up. A costly mistake for sure and I'm sure they feel horrible about it. Mistakes happen isn't acceptable in the LE world, but they are going to happen because people make mistakes, so what is the solution? Rice is not an abuse of power situation either. It would be really nice if we were like Australia and guns were not an option, but until then, incidents like this will continue to happen.

Rice wasn't breaking the law, he was 12 years old playing in a park, and he was shot dead 2 fucking seconds after police rolled onto the scene.

I'd like to see you tell his family to their faces that it wasn't​ an abuse of power to shoot him without giving him a second to comply and leave him laying on his face to bleed to death without assistance.

I guess this is my last response to you

Looking in hindsight, nope, not breaking any laws. Just waving a toy gun around that no one knew wasn't real. That would be a tough conversation with the parents. As a parent, I would be the one who would feel like I was at fault though. If my son went out with a toy gun and behaved in that manner, I would be devastated. It's not the police who are abusing power, it's the fucking industry for turning a weapon of death in to a child's play thing. We chastise police officers for shooting people carrying toy guns, but when will anyone ever step up and address the real problem? The fact that toy guns are promoted, sold and profited on to the millions is disgusting. If you want to get down to the real issue, then you'd be on here demanding that toy guns be banned as well.

PJ_Soul

I didn't think the Rice shooting was an abuse of power. I thought it was a display of poor police training and the systemic lack of patience in police forces though. I agree that the cops in the case failed to take the time that they could have and should have taken to assess the situation properly. I thought that the very first time I saw that video, and still think it. I think that despite the fact that the 12 year old shouldn't have been waving a toy gun around... a toy gun that shouldn't even be allowed to exist in the first place IMO.

tbergs

PJ_Soul said:

I didn't think the Rice shooting was an abuse of power. I thought it was a display of poor police training and the systemic lack of patience in police forces though. I agree that the cops in the case failed to take the time that they could have and should have taken to assess the situation properly. I thought that the very first time I saw that video, and still think it. I think that despite the fact that the 12 year old shouldn't have been waving a toy gun around... a toy gun that shouldn't even be allowed to exist in the first place IMO.

A thorough background would have prevented that shooting. There's a lot of chance factors involved that all came together on that fateful day. Heartbreaking, frustrating and angering all in one. A lot of people played a part in order for that moment in time to happen just the way it did.

PJ_Soul

tbergs said:

PJ_Soul said:

I didn't think the Rice shooting was an abuse of power. I thought it was a display of poor police training and the systemic lack of patience in police forces though. I agree that the cops in the case failed to take the time that they could have and should have taken to assess the situation properly. I thought that the very first time I saw that video, and still think it. I think that despite the fact that the 12 year old shouldn't have been waving a toy gun around... a toy gun that shouldn't even be allowed to exist in the first place IMO.

A thorough background would have prevented that shooting. There's a lot of chance factors involved that all came together on that fateful day. Heartbreaking, frustrating and angering all in one. A lot of people played a part in order for that moment in time to happen just the way it did.

True. The fact that the witness/caller specifically said that it might be a toy gun and that that info wasn't adequately considered or relayed is one of the things I find especially infuriating.

dignin

Sheriff Sandra Hutchens And Cronies Breathe Sigh Of Relief While Deputies Take The Fifth

Sheriff Sandra Hutchens claims the veteran officers were unaware they were required to testify honestly during prior court appearances for the death penalty case marred by astonishing degrees of government cheating.



http://www.ocweekly.com/news/orange-county-sheriffs-deputies-refuse-to-testify-under-oath-in-jailhouse-snitch-scandal-8139758

tbergs

dignin said:

Sheriff Sandra Hutchens And Cronies Breathe Sigh Of Relief While Deputies Take The Fifth

Sheriff Sandra Hutchens claims the veteran officers were unaware they were required to testify honestly during prior court appearances for the death penalty case marred by astonishing degrees of government cheating.



http://www.ocweekly.com/news/orange-county-sheriffs-deputies-refuse-to-testify-under-oath-in-jailhouse-snitch-scandal-8139758

Now there's some dishonest and unfit officers of law. Fire them all. Willfully and purposely lying deserves no leniency.

On a side note, that article would have been easier to read without the excessive beach wear ads surrounding the page. Talk about poor choice to go along with that story.

dignin

tbergs said:

dignin said:

Sheriff Sandra Hutchens And Cronies Breathe Sigh Of Relief While Deputies Take The Fifth

Sheriff Sandra Hutchens claims the veteran officers were unaware they were required to testify honestly during prior court appearances for the death penalty case marred by astonishing degrees of government cheating.



http://www.ocweekly.com/news/orange-county-sheriffs-deputies-refuse-to-testify-under-oath-in-jailhouse-snitch-scandal-8139758

Now there's some dishonest and unfit officers of law. Fire them all. Willfully and purposely lying deserves no leniency.

On a side note, that article would have been easier to read without the excessive beach wear ads surrounding the page. Talk about poor choice to go along with that story.

Sorry about that. I have adblock so I didn't see those ads. Adblock is a must.

Edit: Also, those are targeted ads, so the internet must think you are in need of some good beach wear.

tbergs

dignin said:

tbergs said:

dignin said:

Sheriff Sandra Hutchens And Cronies Breathe Sigh Of Relief While Deputies Take The Fifth

Sheriff Sandra Hutchens claims the veteran officers were unaware they were required to testify honestly during prior court appearances for the death penalty case marred by astonishing degrees of government cheating.



http://www.ocweekly.com/news/orange-county-sheriffs-deputies-refuse-to-testify-under-oath-in-jailhouse-snitch-scandal-8139758

Now there's some dishonest and unfit officers of law. Fire them all. Willfully and purposely lying deserves no leniency.

On a side note, that article would have been easier to read without the excessive beach wear ads surrounding the page. Talk about poor choice to go along with that story.

Sorry about that. I have adblock so I didn't see those ads. Adblock is a must.

Edit: Also, those are targeted ads, so the internet must think you are in need of some good beach wear.

Haha! I went back to see what specifically was being promoted and it was an ad to win tickets to Summer Fest out in the OC. Apparently I want to go to that

rgambs

tbergs said:

rgambs said:

tbergs said:

rgambs said:

mace1229 said:

I just refreshed my memory of Tamir. I won't argue it was a tragedy, and incredibly sad.
Unfortunately, there are parts i this country where 12 and 13 year olds are in gangs and have a gun. SO what do you want the police to do? Wait until someone gets shot?
It is a sad story, but I place zero fault on the police in that situation. It was a toy gu where the orange tip had been removed, he had been pointing it at people, reached for it in his waistband when police arrived. Seriously, what do they need to do, wait until shots are fired before they intervene?  I certainly don't expect that.
I have seen bad examples of police work, I dont argue that they don't exist. I argue that it seems like far too many police shootings now are claimed to be "abuse" when they are not.  I wouldn't give those cops a medal for great police work, but I can't fault them for what happened either, given the information available to them and the circumstances. It was a tragedy, and I'mm sure those cops think about it every day.

The standard for shooting is "posed an immediate threat" and not "had a weapon" as you suggested. Someone reaching for a gun in their waistband is an IMMEDIATE threat.

Under your system you also have 2 dead cops.

So if reaching for a gun isn't an immediate threat, what is? When he points it at you? When he fires the first round? When the first person get shot? WHat someone actually dies? When, in your opinion, is an armed person an immediate threat? 

That is not a correct summary of the Tamir Rice case as supported by evidence.  You have accepted the official police version which has elements omitted and details which are not corroborated by the evidence available.

The video is inconclusive as to whether he was reaching for the weapon, and the only thing that is truly definitive is that the officer assumed the citizen to be an immediate threat prior to actually assessing him.

If we're going to talk about Rice, then lets make sure to point out how badly the dispatcher messed up. A costly mistake for sure and I'm sure they feel horrible about it. Mistakes happen isn't acceptable in the LE world, but they are going to happen because people make mistakes, so what is the solution? Rice is not an abuse of power situation either. It would be really nice if we were like Australia and guns were not an option, but until then, incidents like this will continue to happen.

The solution is to hold people responsible for their mistakes.  Duh.
The solution is to screen, train, and compensate people better so that they make fewer mistakes.  

Should the officer and dispatching be in jail?  Probably not, but they sure as shit shouldn't be in the field any more!

I guess I'll entertain you one more time, but I don't know why I bother. You seem to always be on a higher ground in every conversation on these boards.

To your first response, obviously. Who isn't being held responsible? Just because someone isn't fired doesn't mean they aren't held responsible.

To your second point, again, obviously, but what does that even mean. These position are screened and rigorously trained. Standards have increased nationwide in the last 30 years, but I agree that some states still lag behind in the requirements. Nobody under 21 should be allowed to be a cop. In MN there are strict requirements to even be eligible for a license and before hiring the agency will still make you go through an initial written test, several interviews, a physical, physical skills test, psychological exams (both in person and written) and then once hired, you will go through all that department's training (policies, defensive tactics, use of force, defensive driving, etc.) and then work with multiple Field Training Officers for the first several months, during which time you will be graded daily on your performance and in most cases go before a review board monthly before you are cleared to be on your own, all while still being on a year of probation and required to obtain at least 40 CE's every 3 years and go through firearms training multiple times a year. Maybe there are still Mayberry style departments out there and if so, that needs to change, but if you were to look at the training file on any of the officers involved in a shooting, it's not like it's being neglected or lacking.

As for your last point, should they be out of the field? That depends on the circumstances and outcome of the investigation in to the incident. If based on all the evidence the shooting is ruled unjustified, then yes. As for the dispatcher, maybe. You'll have a hard time firing anyone in a union if there are no other disciplinary records.

The problem is that we want perfect people to do these jobs, but anyone who seems perfect is only one decision away from that mistake that could alter someone's life forever.

Well the cop who shot Tamir Rice was just fired because he falsified his application and was not rigorously screened.
I'm not sure if you know this, but the average length of police academy training is 19 weeks.  Less than 5 months.
It takes a minimum of 8months to become a cosmetologist.
2 years to be a nursing assistant.
6 months to 2 years to be an EMT.

I don't want perfection, I don't get that from a surgeon who trains for 10 to 12 years.
I just want standards and compensation that reflect the gravity of the job.

rgambs

tbergs said:

rgambs said:

tbergs said:

rgambs said:

mace1229 said:

I just refreshed my memory of Tamir. I won't argue it was a tragedy, and incredibly sad.
Unfortunately, there are parts i this country where 12 and 13 year olds are in gangs and have a gun. SO what do you want the police to do? Wait until someone gets shot?
It is a sad story, but I place zero fault on the police in that situation. It was a toy gu where the orange tip had been removed, he had been pointing it at people, reached for it in his waistband when police arrived. Seriously, what do they need to do, wait until shots are fired before they intervene?  I certainly don't expect that.
I have seen bad examples of police work, I dont argue that they don't exist. I argue that it seems like far too many police shootings now are claimed to be "abuse" when they are not.  I wouldn't give those cops a medal for great police work, but I can't fault them for what happened either, given the information available to them and the circumstances. It was a tragedy, and I'mm sure those cops think about it every day.

The standard for shooting is "posed an immediate threat" and not "had a weapon" as you suggested. Someone reaching for a gun in their waistband is an IMMEDIATE threat.

Under your system you also have 2 dead cops.

So if reaching for a gun isn't an immediate threat, what is? When he points it at you? When he fires the first round? When the first person get shot? WHat someone actually dies? When, in your opinion, is an armed person an immediate threat? 

That is not a correct summary of the Tamir Rice case as supported by evidence.  You have accepted the official police version which has elements omitted and details which are not corroborated by the evidence available.

The video is inconclusive as to whether he was reaching for the weapon, and the only thing that is truly definitive is that the officer assumed the citizen to be an immediate threat prior to actually assessing him.

If we're going to talk about Rice, then lets make sure to point out how badly the dispatcher messed up. A costly mistake for sure and I'm sure they feel horrible about it. Mistakes happen isn't acceptable in the LE world, but they are going to happen because people make mistakes, so what is the solution? Rice is not an abuse of power situation either. It would be really nice if we were like Australia and guns were not an option, but until then, incidents like this will continue to happen.

The solution is to hold people responsible for their mistakes.  Duh.
The solution is to screen, train, and compensate people better so that they make fewer mistakes.  

Should the officer and dispatching be in jail?  Probably not, but they sure as shit shouldn't be in the field any more!

I guess I'll entertain you one more time, but I don't know why I bother. You seem to always be on a higher ground in every conversation on these boards.

To your first response, obviously. Who isn't being held responsible? Just because someone isn't fired doesn't mean they aren't held responsible.

To your second point, again, obviously, but what does that even mean. These position are screened and rigorously trained. Standards have increased nationwide in the last 30 years, but I agree that some states still lag behind in the requirements. Nobody under 21 should be allowed to be a cop. In MN there are strict requirements to even be eligible for a license and before hiring the agency will still make you go through an initial written test, several interviews, a physical, physical skills test, psychological exams (both in person and written) and then once hired, you will go through all that department's training (policies, defensive tactics, use of force, defensive driving, etc.) and then work with multiple Field Training Officers for the first several months, during which time you will be graded daily on your performance and in most cases go before a review board monthly before you are cleared to be on your own, all while still being on a year of probation and required to obtain at least 40 CE's every 3 years and go through firearms training multiple times a year. Maybe there are still Mayberry style departments out there and if so, that needs to change, but if you were to look at the training file on any of the officers involved in a shooting, it's not like it's being neglected or lacking.

As for your last point, should they be out of the field? That depends on the circumstances and outcome of the investigation in to the incident. If based on all the evidence the shooting is ruled unjustified, then yes. As for the dispatcher, maybe. You'll have a hard time firing anyone in a union if there are no other disciplinary records.

The problem is that we want perfect people to do these jobs, but anyone who seems perfect is only one decision away from that mistake that could alter someone's life forever.



I would accept that if there was an independent body to make that determination, and not the guy who hired you that you golf with on the weekends.

tbergs

rgambs said:

tbergs said:

rgambs said:

tbergs said:

rgambs said:

mace1229 said:

I just refreshed my memory of Tamir. I won't argue it was a tragedy, and incredibly sad.
Unfortunately, there are parts i this country where 12 and 13 year olds are in gangs and have a gun. SO what do you want the police to do? Wait until someone gets shot?
It is a sad story, but I place zero fault on the police in that situation. It was a toy gu where the orange tip had been removed, he had been pointing it at people, reached for it in his waistband when police arrived. Seriously, what do they need to do, wait until shots are fired before they intervene?  I certainly don't expect that.
I have seen bad examples of police work, I dont argue that they don't exist. I argue that it seems like far too many police shootings now are claimed to be "abuse" when they are not.  I wouldn't give those cops a medal for great police work, but I can't fault them for what happened either, given the information available to them and the circumstances. It was a tragedy, and I'mm sure those cops think about it every day.

The standard for shooting is "posed an immediate threat" and not "had a weapon" as you suggested. Someone reaching for a gun in their waistband is an IMMEDIATE threat.

Under your system you also have 2 dead cops.

So if reaching for a gun isn't an immediate threat, what is? When he points it at you? When he fires the first round? When the first person get shot? WHat someone actually dies? When, in your opinion, is an armed person an immediate threat? 

That is not a correct summary of the Tamir Rice case as supported by evidence.  You have accepted the official police version which has elements omitted and details which are not corroborated by the evidence available.

The video is inconclusive as to whether he was reaching for the weapon, and the only thing that is truly definitive is that the officer assumed the citizen to be an immediate threat prior to actually assessing him.

If we're going to talk about Rice, then lets make sure to point out how badly the dispatcher messed up. A costly mistake for sure and I'm sure they feel horrible about it. Mistakes happen isn't acceptable in the LE world, but they are going to happen because people make mistakes, so what is the solution? Rice is not an abuse of power situation either. It would be really nice if we were like Australia and guns were not an option, but until then, incidents like this will continue to happen.

The solution is to hold people responsible for their mistakes.  Duh.
The solution is to screen, train, and compensate people better so that they make fewer mistakes.  

Should the officer and dispatching be in jail?  Probably not, but they sure as shit shouldn't be in the field any more!

I guess I'll entertain you one more time, but I don't know why I bother. You seem to always be on a higher ground in every conversation on these boards.

To your first response, obviously. Who isn't being held responsible? Just because someone isn't fired doesn't mean they aren't held responsible.

To your second point, again, obviously, but what does that even mean. These position are screened and rigorously trained. Standards have increased nationwide in the last 30 years, but I agree that some states still lag behind in the requirements. Nobody under 21 should be allowed to be a cop. In MN there are strict requirements to even be eligible for a license and before hiring the agency will still make you go through an initial written test, several interviews, a physical, physical skills test, psychological exams (both in person and written) and then once hired, you will go through all that department's training (policies, defensive tactics, use of force, defensive driving, etc.) and then work with multiple Field Training Officers for the first several months, during which time you will be graded daily on your performance and in most cases go before a review board monthly before you are cleared to be on your own, all while still being on a year of probation and required to obtain at least 40 CE's every 3 years and go through firearms training multiple times a year. Maybe there are still Mayberry style departments out there and if so, that needs to change, but if you were to look at the training file on any of the officers involved in a shooting, it's not like it's being neglected or lacking.

As for your last point, should they be out of the field? That depends on the circumstances and outcome of the investigation in to the incident. If based on all the evidence the shooting is ruled unjustified, then yes. As for the dispatcher, maybe. You'll have a hard time firing anyone in a union if there are no other disciplinary records.

The problem is that we want perfect people to do these jobs, but anyone who seems perfect is only one decision away from that mistake that could alter someone's life forever.

Well the cop who shot Tamir Rice was just fired because he falsified his application and was not rigorously screened.
I'm not sure if you know this, but the average length of police academy training is 19 weeks.  Less than 5 months.
It takes a minimum of 8months to become a cosmetologist.
2 years to be a nursing assistant.
6 months to 2 years to be an EMT.

I don't want perfection, I don't get that from a surgeon who trains for 10 to 12 years.
I just want standards and compensation that reflect the gravity of the job.

I saw the Rice finding. That falsified information was the job of the background investigator and that should be followed up on. I'd like to here how that was missed.

I'm all for more training and higher age restrictions on hiring officers. No one under 25 and a 4 year degree in a social justice/human services/psychology related field would be ideal. 

rgambs

tbergs said:

rgambs said:

tbergs said:

rgambs said:

tbergs said:

rgambs said:

mace1229 said:

I just refreshed my memory of Tamir. I won't argue it was a tragedy, and incredibly sad.
Unfortunately, there are parts i this country where 12 and 13 year olds are in gangs and have a gun. SO what do you want the police to do? Wait until someone gets shot?
It is a sad story, but I place zero fault on the police in that situation. It was a toy gu where the orange tip had been removed, he had been pointing it at people, reached for it in his waistband when police arrived. Seriously, what do they need to do, wait until shots are fired before they intervene?  I certainly don't expect that.
I have seen bad examples of police work, I dont argue that they don't exist. I argue that it seems like far too many police shootings now are claimed to be "abuse" when they are not.  I wouldn't give those cops a medal for great police work, but I can't fault them for what happened either, given the information available to them and the circumstances. It was a tragedy, and I'mm sure those cops think about it every day.

The standard for shooting is "posed an immediate threat" and not "had a weapon" as you suggested. Someone reaching for a gun in their waistband is an IMMEDIATE threat.

Under your system you also have 2 dead cops.

So if reaching for a gun isn't an immediate threat, what is? When he points it at you? When he fires the first round? When the first person get shot? WHat someone actually dies? When, in your opinion, is an armed person an immediate threat? 

That is not a correct summary of the Tamir Rice case as supported by evidence.  You have accepted the official police version which has elements omitted and details which are not corroborated by the evidence available.

The video is inconclusive as to whether he was reaching for the weapon, and the only thing that is truly definitive is that the officer assumed the citizen to be an immediate threat prior to actually assessing him.

If we're going to talk about Rice, then lets make sure to point out how badly the dispatcher messed up. A costly mistake for sure and I'm sure they feel horrible about it. Mistakes happen isn't acceptable in the LE world, but they are going to happen because people make mistakes, so what is the solution? Rice is not an abuse of power situation either. It would be really nice if we were like Australia and guns were not an option, but until then, incidents like this will continue to happen.

The solution is to hold people responsible for their mistakes.  Duh.
The solution is to screen, train, and compensate people better so that they make fewer mistakes.  

Should the officer and dispatching be in jail?  Probably not, but they sure as shit shouldn't be in the field any more!

I guess I'll entertain you one more time, but I don't know why I bother. You seem to always be on a higher ground in every conversation on these boards.

To your first response, obviously. Who isn't being held responsible? Just because someone isn't fired doesn't mean they aren't held responsible.

To your second point, again, obviously, but what does that even mean. These position are screened and rigorously trained. Standards have increased nationwide in the last 30 years, but I agree that some states still lag behind in the requirements. Nobody under 21 should be allowed to be a cop. In MN there are strict requirements to even be eligible for a license and before hiring the agency will still make you go through an initial written test, several interviews, a physical, physical skills test, psychological exams (both in person and written) and then once hired, you will go through all that department's training (policies, defensive tactics, use of force, defensive driving, etc.) and then work with multiple Field Training Officers for the first several months, during which time you will be graded daily on your performance and in most cases go before a review board monthly before you are cleared to be on your own, all while still being on a year of probation and required to obtain at least 40 CE's every 3 years and go through firearms training multiple times a year. Maybe there are still Mayberry style departments out there and if so, that needs to change, but if you were to look at the training file on any of the officers involved in a shooting, it's not like it's being neglected or lacking.

As for your last point, should they be out of the field? That depends on the circumstances and outcome of the investigation in to the incident. If based on all the evidence the shooting is ruled unjustified, then yes. As for the dispatcher, maybe. You'll have a hard time firing anyone in a union if there are no other disciplinary records.

The problem is that we want perfect people to do these jobs, but anyone who seems perfect is only one decision away from that mistake that could alter someone's life forever.

Well the cop who shot Tamir Rice was just fired because he falsified his application and was not rigorously screened.
I'm not sure if you know this, but the average length of police academy training is 19 weeks.  Less than 5 months.
It takes a minimum of 8months to become a cosmetologist.
2 years to be a nursing assistant.
6 months to 2 years to be an EMT.

I don't want perfection, I don't get that from a surgeon who trains for 10 to 12 years.
I just want standards and compensation that reflect the gravity of the job.

I saw the Rice finding. That falsified information was the job of the background investigator and that should be followed up on. I'd like to here how that was missed.

I'm all for more training and higher age restrictions on hiring officers. No one under 25 and a 4 year degree in a social justice/human services/psychology related field would be ideal. 

And at least double the average salary they currently make.

rgambs

In case you miss it in the other thread, @Thirty Bills Unpaid

"In one such incident, captured in a body camera video, an officer confronts a knife-wielding suspect following a traffic stop. As the man advances, the officer backs up, using his cruiser as cover ― “giving ground” in police terminology. This gives the cop time to regroup and draw his Taser. He then stuns the suspect and disarms him, before pulling out the handcuffs."

Golly, that sure does sound familiar.  You'd better start mocking the Salt Lake PD relentlessly.

tbergs

Verdict coming in Philando Castile shooting by Officer Yanez in minutes. 

tbergs

tbergs said:

Verdict coming in Philando Castile shooting by Officer Yanez in minutes. 

Not guilty on all counts.