THE DEBATES 2016

Godfather. said:

josevolution said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

BS44325 said:

Kat said:

BS44325 said:

Kat said:

I've forgiven some Presidents' bad mistakes but with Bush it's different. Every time I hear his name, I think about the almost 4,500 military people and the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis who died in the Iraq war and are still dying. It's not forgivable with me. :(

Yet you forgive Hillary for being on board with the decision.

She wasn't exactly on board with the decision as it went down but Slate did a story that I'm linking to so you can see why. Many people were lied to and many people died. The liars are responsible for the dead. It's worth watching Senator Clinton's speech on the Senate floor before the vote was cast to see the entire context. Have a great evening.

"...an explanation for her vote, something she has rarely done in the past. President Bush, she told the audience, had made a “very explicit appeal” that “getting this vote would be a strong piece of leverage in order to finish the inspections.” In other words, a resolution to use force would prod Saddam Hussein into readmitting U.N. inspectors, so they could continue their mission of verifying whether or not he had destroyed his chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons sites."

(snip)

She went on to say that there was “no perfect approach to this thorny dilemma” and that “people of good faith and high intelligence can reach diametrically opposing conclusions.” But, she concluded, “I believe the best course is to go to the United Nations for a strong resolution” that calls “for complete, unlimited inspections with cooperation expected and demanded” from Saddam.

“If we get the resolution the president seeks, and Saddam complies,” Clinton added, “disarmament can proceed and the threat can be eliminated. … If we get the resolution and Saddam does not comply, we can attack him with far more support and legitimacy than we would have otherwise.” This international support is “crucial,” she added, because, “after shots are fired and bombs are dropped, not all consequences are predictable.”

Then came, from today’s vantage, the key passage: “Even though the resolution before the Senate is not as strong as I would like in requiring the diplomatic route first … I take the president at his word that he will try hard to pass a United Nations resolution and seek to avoid war, if possible. Because bipartisan support for this resolution makes success in the United Nations more likely and war less likely—and because a good faith effort by the United States, even if it fails, will bring more allies and legitimacy to our cause—I have concluded, after careful and serious consideration, that a vote for the resolution best serves the security of our nation. If we were to defeat this resolution or pass it with only a few Democrats, I am concerned that those who want to pretend this problem will go away with delay will oppose any United Nations resolution calling for unrestricted inspections.”


http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/war_stories/2016/02/hillary_clinton_told_the_truth_about_her_iraq_war_vote.html

That is called having your cake and eating it too. She was fully on board just like Senator Leiberman but lacked the courage of her convictions and jumped ship when Obama went to her left. I'm sorry but nobody believed that senate chamber spin when she ran against Obama and nobody is believing it now. She is complicit in the Iraq war you hate and doesn't get to wash her hands of her vote. If you are truly unable to forgive George W Bush then you should be honest and recognize that she can't be forgiven as well.

Sorry, but this is all on GWB. It was a war of choice, an unnecessary war, a war congress approved but GWB didn't have to execute. Him and Cheney should both rot in hell and I really wonder how either of them sleep at night. You neocons can say it was right, blame it on Hillary or still believe there's WMDs in Iraq but it doesn't change the facts. GWB made a colossal mistake, one we're still paying for and will be paying for for generations.

http://m.motherjones.com/politics/2011/12/leadup-iraq-war-timeline

Totally agree !!

all most 8 years and you guy's still blame Bush ? wtf has Obama done in office besides fuck thing up ?

Godfather.

Cliffy6745 said:

cutz said:

Cliffy6745 said:

cutz said:

Undecided voter here, and after last night's debate: i'm still undecided. Neither one did anything for me, one way or the other. Lets see how the next debates go.

You seriously can't be an undecided voter between Trump and Hillary at this point, right? You're kidding, right?

So, you think i'm the only voter who is still undecided right now? You're kidding right?

Like i said: still more debates to go, though i'm not entirely basing my decision solely on them.

I guess I don't understand how someone can still be deciding between two people who have completely different views of the world and country...

I can get folks would are thinking 3rd party or Hillary but can't comprehend Hillary/Trump

Cliffy6745 said:

PP193448 said:

Cliffy6745 said:

cutz said:

Cliffy6745 said:

cutz said:

Undecided voter here, and after last night's debate: i'm still undecided. Neither one did anything for me, one way or the other. Lets see how the next debates go.

You seriously can't be an undecided voter between Trump and Hillary at this point, right? You're kidding, right?

So, you think i'm the only voter who is still undecided right now? You're kidding right?

Like i said: still more debates to go, though i'm not entirely basing my decision solely on them.

I guess I don't understand how someone can still be deciding between two people who have completely different views of the world and country...

I can get folks would are thinking 3rd party or Hillary but can't comprehend Hillary/Trump

I think lots of people vote solely on how any change personally affects them, not society and the world as a whole. People who are undecided may be conflicted about whether to stay with the same corrupt leadership process like Hillary, or go with something completely different (although likely incompetent) like Trump. Why would this surprise anyone that some people are still undecided. Some of you were already decided based on your party line prior to even knowing who the final candidates would be. I am so far undecided that I don't even know if I'm going to vote, especially since I will not vote for Trump or Hilary, and don't know anything about the independent candidates. So go ahead and bash me and other undecided people all you want...

I think there are some fair points here and like I said, I get the independent aspect of things. I just struggle with how someone could be considering Hillary and trump. I have read an article about republicans trying to find reasons to vote for trump but struggling to do so, so I guess that's an option.

Godfather. said:

PP193448 said:

Cliffy6745 said:

PP193448 said:

Cliffy6745 said:

cutz said:

Cliffy6745 said:

cutz said:

Undecided voter here, and after last night's debate: i'm still undecided. Neither one did anything for me, one way or the other. Lets see how the next debates go.

You seriously can't be an undecided voter between Trump and Hillary at this point, right? You're kidding, right?

So, you think i'm the only voter who is still undecided right now? You're kidding right?

Like i said: still more debates to go, though i'm not entirely basing my decision solely on them.

I guess I don't understand how someone can still be deciding between two people who have completely different views of the world and country...

I can get folks would are thinking 3rd party or Hillary but can't comprehend Hillary/Trump

I think lots of people vote solely on how any change personally affects them, not society and the world as a whole. People who are undecided may be conflicted about whether to stay with the same corrupt leadership process like Hillary, or go with something completely different (although likely incompetent) like Trump. Why would this surprise anyone that some people are still undecided. Some of you were already decided based on your party line prior to even knowing who the final candidates would be. I am so far undecided that I don't even know if I'm going to vote, especially since I will not vote for Trump or Hilary, and don't know anything about the independent candidates. So go ahead and bash me and other undecided people all you want...

I think there are some fair points here and like I said, I get the independent aspect of things. I just struggle with how someone could be considering Hillary and trump. I have read an article about republicans trying to find reasons to vote for trump but struggling to do so, so I guess that's an option.

I guess I could fit that. I can't find many reasons at all to vote for Trump, and still can't find overwhelming reasons to definitely vote for Clinton. So I'm not even on the fence. More like in the middle of the ocean (I wish on my own private island).

who ever you vote for is your choice and should be respected, to me it's very important to vote but letting some folks know who your voting for opens a door to criticism and debate...over your choice.

Godfather.

Gern Blansten said:

Godfather. said:

PP193448 said:

Cliffy6745 said:

PP193448 said:

Cliffy6745 said:

cutz said:

Cliffy6745 said:

cutz said:

Undecided voter here, and after last night's debate: i'm still undecided. Neither one did anything for me, one way or the other. Lets see how the next debates go.

You seriously can't be an undecided voter between Trump and Hillary at this point, right? You're kidding, right?

So, you think i'm the only voter who is still undecided right now? You're kidding right?

Like i said: still more debates to go, though i'm not entirely basing my decision solely on them.

I guess I don't understand how someone can still be deciding between two people who have completely different views of the world and country...

I can get folks would are thinking 3rd party or Hillary but can't comprehend Hillary/Trump

I think lots of people vote solely on how any change personally affects them, not society and the world as a whole. People who are undecided may be conflicted about whether to stay with the same corrupt leadership process like Hillary, or go with something completely different (although likely incompetent) like Trump. Why would this surprise anyone that some people are still undecided. Some of you were already decided based on your party line prior to even knowing who the final candidates would be. I am so far undecided that I don't even know if I'm going to vote, especially since I will not vote for Trump or Hilary, and don't know anything about the independent candidates. So go ahead and bash me and other undecided people all you want...

I think there are some fair points here and like I said, I get the independent aspect of things. I just struggle with how someone could be considering Hillary and trump. I have read an article about republicans trying to find reasons to vote for trump but struggling to do so, so I guess that's an option.

I guess I could fit that. I can't find many reasons at all to vote for Trump, and still can't find overwhelming reasons to definitely vote for Clinton. So I'm not even on the fence. More like in the middle of the ocean (I wish on my own private island).

who ever you vote for is your choice and should be respected, to me it's very important to vote but letting some folks know who your voting for opens a door to criticism and debate...over your choice.

Godfather.

I think the criticism relates to statements made rather than who you are voting for. If you say "I am voting for Trump" that's fine....that's your vote.

If you say "HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA that fat ass bith gawt her ass handed to her last nite" then yes you will likely be criticized.

Godfather. said:

Cliffy6745 said:

Godfather. said:

Cliffy6745 said:

Godfather. said:

josevolution said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

BS44325 said:

Kat said:

BS44325 said:

Kat said:

I've forgiven some Presidents' bad mistakes but with Bush it's different. Every time I hear his name, I think about the almost 4,500 military people and the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis who died in the Iraq war and are still dying. It's not forgivable with me. :(

Yet you forgive Hillary for being on board with the decision.

She wasn't exactly on board with the decision as it went down but Slate did a story that I'm linking to so you can see why. Many people were lied to and many people died. The liars are responsible for the dead. It's worth watching Senator Clinton's speech on the Senate floor before the vote was cast to see the entire context. Have a great evening.

"...an explanation for her vote, something she has rarely done in the past. President Bush, she told the audience, had made a “very explicit appeal” that “getting this vote would be a strong piece of leverage in order to finish the inspections.” In other words, a resolution to use force would prod Saddam Hussein into readmitting U.N. inspectors, so they could continue their mission of verifying whether or not he had destroyed his chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons sites."

(snip)

She went on to say that there was “no perfect approach to this thorny dilemma” and that “people of good faith and high intelligence can reach diametrically opposing conclusions.” But, she concluded, “I believe the best course is to go to the United Nations for a strong resolution” that calls “for complete, unlimited inspections with cooperation expected and demanded” from Saddam.

“If we get the resolution the president seeks, and Saddam complies,” Clinton added, “disarmament can proceed and the threat can be eliminated. … If we get the resolution and Saddam does not comply, we can attack him with far more support and legitimacy than we would have otherwise.” This international support is “crucial,” she added, because, “after shots are fired and bombs are dropped, not all consequences are predictable.”

Then came, from today’s vantage, the key passage: “Even though the resolution before the Senate is not as strong as I would like in requiring the diplomatic route first … I take the president at his word that he will try hard to pass a United Nations resolution and seek to avoid war, if possible. Because bipartisan support for this resolution makes success in the United Nations more likely and war less likely—and because a good faith effort by the United States, even if it fails, will bring more allies and legitimacy to our cause—I have concluded, after careful and serious consideration, that a vote for the resolution best serves the security of our nation. If we were to defeat this resolution or pass it with only a few Democrats, I am concerned that those who want to pretend this problem will go away with delay will oppose any United Nations resolution calling for unrestricted inspections.”


http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/war_stories/2016/02/hillary_clinton_told_the_truth_about_her_iraq_war_vote.html

That is called having your cake and eating it too. She was fully on board just like Senator Leiberman but lacked the courage of her convictions and jumped ship when Obama went to her left. I'm sorry but nobody believed that senate chamber spin when she ran against Obama and nobody is believing it now. She is complicit in the Iraq war you hate and doesn't get to wash her hands of her vote. If you are truly unable to forgive George W Bush then you should be honest and recognize that she can't be forgiven as well.

Sorry, but this is all on GWB. It was a war of choice, an unnecessary war, a war congress approved but GWB didn't have to execute. Him and Cheney should both rot in hell and I really wonder how either of them sleep at night. You neocons can say it was right, blame it on Hillary or still believe there's WMDs in Iraq but it doesn't change the facts. GWB made a colossal mistake, one we're still paying for and will be paying for for generations.

http://m.motherjones.com/politics/2011/12/leadup-iraq-war-timeline

Totally agree !!

all most 8 years and you guy's still blame Bush ? wtf has Obama done in office besides fuck thing up ?

Godfather.

Have you seen the economy?

where ? Michigan, Illinois, L.A or overseas ? no offense man but that question has a few answers.

Godfather.

Ah yes, there are certainly issues with different geographic areas and sectors like manufacturing but speaking of Michigan, have you compared that state to 7 years ago? Didn't think so...

no, has it improved ? I haven't been in that state since the 70's (Kalamazoo)
but I have no desire to go back either.


Godfather.

Gern Blansten said:

BS44325 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

BS44325 said:

Kat said:

BS44325 said:

Kat said:

I've forgiven some Presidents' bad mistakes but with Bush it's different. Every time I hear his name, I think about the almost 4,500 military people and the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis who died in the Iraq war and are still dying. It's not forgivable with me. :(

Yet you forgive Hillary for being on board with the decision.

She wasn't exactly on board with the decision as it went down but Slate did a story that I'm linking to so you can see why. Many people were lied to and many people died. The liars are responsible for the dead. It's worth watching Senator Clinton's speech on the Senate floor before the vote was cast to see the entire context. Have a great evening.

"...an explanation for her vote, something she has rarely done in the past. President Bush, she told the audience, had made a “very explicit appeal” that “getting this vote would be a strong piece of leverage in order to finish the inspections.” In other words, a resolution to use force would prod Saddam Hussein into readmitting U.N. inspectors, so they could continue their mission of verifying whether or not he had destroyed his chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons sites."

(snip)

She went on to say that there was “no perfect approach to this thorny dilemma” and that “people of good faith and high intelligence can reach diametrically opposing conclusions.” But, she concluded, “I believe the best course is to go to the United Nations for a strong resolution” that calls “for complete, unlimited inspections with cooperation expected and demanded” from Saddam.

“If we get the resolution the president seeks, and Saddam complies,” Clinton added, “disarmament can proceed and the threat can be eliminated. … If we get the resolution and Saddam does not comply, we can attack him with far more support and legitimacy than we would have otherwise.” This international support is “crucial,” she added, because, “after shots are fired and bombs are dropped, not all consequences are predictable.”

Then came, from today’s vantage, the key passage: “Even though the resolution before the Senate is not as strong as I would like in requiring the diplomatic route first … I take the president at his word that he will try hard to pass a United Nations resolution and seek to avoid war, if possible. Because bipartisan support for this resolution makes success in the United Nations more likely and war less likely—and because a good faith effort by the United States, even if it fails, will bring more allies and legitimacy to our cause—I have concluded, after careful and serious consideration, that a vote for the resolution best serves the security of our nation. If we were to defeat this resolution or pass it with only a few Democrats, I am concerned that those who want to pretend this problem will go away with delay will oppose any United Nations resolution calling for unrestricted inspections.”


http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/war_stories/2016/02/hillary_clinton_told_the_truth_about_her_iraq_war_vote.html

That is called having your cake and eating it too. She was fully on board just like Senator Leiberman but lacked the courage of her convictions and jumped ship when Obama went to her left. I'm sorry but nobody believed that senate chamber spin when she ran against Obama and nobody is believing it now. She is complicit in the Iraq war you hate and doesn't get to wash her hands of her vote. If you are truly unable to forgive George W Bush then you should be honest and recognize that she can't be forgiven as well.

Sorry, but this is all on GWB. It was a war of choice, an unnecessary war, a war congress approved but GWB didn't have to execute. Him and Cheney should both rot in hell and I really wonder how either of them sleep at night. You neocons can say it was right, blame it on Hillary or still believe there's WMDs in Iraq but it doesn't change the facts. GWB made a colossal mistake, one we're still paying for and will be paying for for generations.

http://m.motherjones.com/politics/2011/12/leadup-iraq-war-timeline

Nobody is "blaming" Hillary. It was W's decision and his alone. She just happened to fully endorse the decision. Anybody who sees W's invasion of Iraq as "unforgiveable" and now supports Hillary because of her great judgement is being completely and utterly dishonest. She couldn't "spin" her way out of it when she ran against Obama and she can't "spin" her way out of it. She's the neocon in this race.

Trump is blaming Hillary. He's made that pretty clear....even though he's on record for supporting the war as well.