Joining this conversation a little late. I have been in education in a few different areas. First San Diego then South Central LA, and now Colorado. I can agree that the average teacher contract is about 190 days. Just comparing to other public services (since teaching is a public service and paid by the government), they too get many holidays and as much as 4 weeks vacation and sick leave per year. Summers off is a perk, what's wrong with that? Its a perk because in every school I've worked it is expected to put in 9-10 hours a day on a regular basis, sometimes as many as 12-15 hours in a single day (typically about once a month we'll pull a 15 hour day for conferences, open house, etc). I have never received overtime pay in 10 years of teaching. Very few teacher can put in an 8-hour work day and complete all of the tasks expected of them (lesson planning, grading, calling parents, endless meetings, etc). The teachers who can accomplish that in 8 hours have a special name, we call them P.E. teachers (just kidding). I know lots of people in other areas of public service and all get compensated very well for every minute over 8 hours that they work. So we are essentially trading 8 hour work days for 10 hour works days and getting the summer off in return, and it pretty much evens out. But then as pointed out multiple times, our pay only reflects that of someone who actually only works 9 months of the year. On top of our 190 contract days many teachers are forced to attend mutli-day or week conferences in the summer without pay. Some teachers at my current school are enrolled in 2 weeks of conferences in the summer.
It was mentioned earlier that better pay doesn't make better teachers. Maybe true, but in hard to fill subjects (math and science) the teacher hired is often the only one who applied. Imagine if we paid a decent wage and got to choose from a list of qualified candidates? Especially in those subject areas where most students struggle. Instead the trend is qualified people are taking much higher paying jobs elsewhere. If you're just out of school with a science degree and in debt, you can work 8 hours a day with holidays and 4 weeks off a year and make triple what a teacher makes (and In a few years a lot more) who works 10 hours a day and gets 2 months off in the summer. Wouldn't you want the people in charge of educating your children making a decent wage and getting the best? I mentioned where I worked because teachers are sometimes the first to blame. In some schools the majority of students speak little or no English, are behind several years in multiple subjects, sometimes even being placed in high school after not attending school for several years, and then the teachers get blamed for low test scores in those schools.
Before you point out the timing of this post as proof there must be nothing to do, I just came from the doctor with stitches in my head.
so are you willing to have your local taxes raised by 2-3% to pay these additional salaries?
If you're asking me if I'd be willing to raise tax on everyone by 2-3% so I can have a 20% pay raise, then yes.
Using common core to judge teacher performance is a terrible and unfair practice.
I already said that, I find it interesting that we're talking about teaching and education and I'm the only one bringing up Common core. The teachers are not.
It's a whole other topic of discussion.
You've spent the majority of your previous efforts trying to establish that teachers are underworked and overpaid. What are you trying to get at here?
Your disdain for teachers is obvious (in the event you weren't making it obvious): even here... you seem to imply that because no teachers have run with this change of discourse... that teachers are... what? Uncaring? Greedy? Lazy? Not on par with you when it comes to educational issues?
Using common core to judge teacher performance is a terrible and unfair practice.
I already said that, I find it interesting that we're talking about teaching and education and I'm the only one bringing up Common core. The teachers are not.
It's a whole other topic of discussion.
You've spent the majority of your previous efforts trying to establish that teachers are underworked and overpaid. What are you trying to get at here?
Your disdain for teachers is obvious (in the event you weren't making it obvious): even here... you seem to imply that because no teachers have run with this change of discourse... that teachers are... what? Uncaring? Greedy? Lazy? Not on par with you when it comes to educational issues?
It is not a whole entire different discussion we were talking about teacher pay an education. Give me a break.
Free, do you actually want to know why no teachers are discussing common core? It is because they are too busy defending themselves against your assertion that their careers are one big perkfest.
Using common core to judge teacher performance is a terrible and unfair practice.
I already said that, I find it interesting that we're talking about teaching and education and I'm the only one bringing up Common core. The teachers are not.
It's a whole other topic of discussion.
You've spent the majority of your previous efforts trying to establish that teachers are underworked and overpaid. What are you trying to get at here?
Your disdain for teachers is obvious (in the event you weren't making it obvious): even here... you seem to imply that because no teachers have run with this change of discourse... that teachers are... what? Uncaring? Greedy? Lazy? Not on par with you when it comes to educational issues?
It is not a whole entire different discussion we were talking about teacher pay an education. Give me a break.
Brian changed the thread topic so I can see where you might have become confused.
I'll give you a break though- seeing as you're asking for one.
summer vacation is not a bad thing. I can't imagine being in school for 18 years without a fucking break. that would suck balls. I feel bad enough as it is that my kids have to spend some time in daycare (as awesome as it is-it's like a camp), because I never did as a kid. Had 2 months at home with friends. I'm really looking forward to when they are old enough to stay home alone.
Using common core to judge teacher performance is a terrible and unfair practice.
I already said that, I find it interesting that we're talking about teaching and education and I'm the only one bringing up Common core. The teachers are not.
Oh for God's sakes, Free, quit playing your Savior game with us. "I'm the only one talking about Common Core." According to you in every thread, you're "the only one . . ."
Start another thread if you want to talk about Common Core. We'll meet you over there.
And kids need time to be kids. You adults need to shake your heads if you think kids should be in school over the summer.
Were your childhoods that disappointing? Yikes.
I remember and still see today that summers are very enriching for kids. The idea of taking that time away from them is disturbing and sad. I think many parents say this just because they find summer child care to be a pain in the ass.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
summer vacation is not a bad thing. I can't imagine being in school for 18 years without a fucking break. that would suck balls. I feel bad enough as it is that my kids have to spend some time in daycare (as awesome as it is-it's like a camp), because I never did as a kid. Had 2 months at home with friends. I'm really looking forward to when they are old enough to stay home alone.
Free, do you actually want to know why no teachers are discussing common core? It is because they are too busy defending themselves against your assertion that their careers are one big perkfest.
Please explain how a week or more for Christmas break, bank holidays, thanksgiving, spring break, winter break, Snow days, and summer break are not perks. Anyone working in a professional Field don't get half of that off. Hawks and I are simply pointing that fact out with many people excusing it while also pointing out that it is a full-time job. With all that time off, and the full-time pay, pension and tenure the teachers in my state get at least, it deserves attention. In other states were teachers get low pay, I am not saying they should, but comparing the time and days worked, the pay might be more in line.
Again, why is tenure not offered to any other profession? Teachers unions were organized and necessary back when my grandmother was a teacher in the early to mid 20th century. And some states apparently need it now. But states like New York have proven that teachers no longer need the union here. This idea is nothing new here, people complain about it more than you think. Teacher unions do not help students they are only to protect the teachers.
In the middle of the teaching argument there are students who lose out big time. Too much finger-pointing and common core that fail our kids. And that should be the focus, not teacher pay and how great teachers are in general (many are fantastic especially special Ed.) but how are the students benefiting and learning. It's what's getting lost in the conversation.
A lot of professions offer "tenure" in one form or another. It's just not called tenure.
As I mentioned already, that time off for teachers is needed. Otherwise the system would be stuffed with way overstressed teachers who would be rendered ineffective. That kind of work can't be maintained at a reasonable level constantly for the entire year. They'd start having mental breakdowns, stress leave would skyrocket. You try spending 5 days a week stuck in a room with 30+ of other people's kids and see how you feel.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I'm really surprised the teachers are still answering questions after all this. THANK YOU for all the input!
You know what? Thank you. And I want to thank everyone else on here that, surprisingly to be honest, have rushed to the defence of the profession. It's been encouraging.
You're always going to get the critics of the world that are, I don't know, say... 'challenged' to see things from a multi-directional perspective, but I've seen some quality people (based on what I have come to understand of them from ther posting history) come into this thread and support teaching in a very strong way.
For the record as well, I don't "admit Summer's are a perk" (Free ^^^) because they are not. How is an unpaid vacation a perk? It's a forced layoff!!
If I were queen of the world, there would be no summer vacation. They're bad for kids and they're a pain in the ass for working parents. All the research shows that poor, minority students lose on average 1/3 of what they gain over a school year. We should be extending the number of days kids are in school.
But you know why we never will? Because it would mean we'd have to pay teachers more, and that will never happen. People hate paying us for our days as it is.
I swear, if the profession were 80% male, we would not be having this discussion. Men would never put up with this shit.
Then you admit it's a part-time job. Just saying. In my state w/ the 2nd highest paid teachers, getting their pay and leisure is quite the luxury.
Free, if you are the person in real life that you are here . . . Thank God you don't work in my building. In fact, you would never get hired in my building because my principal would never tolerate your negativity, which she would sense as soon as you opened your mouth. The faculty would hate every minute being around you, and you'd be driven out if you even made it past the interview because we needed a warm body to serve in our aide position.
How dare you reduce my job (and your child's teachers' jobs) to a part time job. Thank God also that I don't teach your child. What hell it would be dealing with you everyday, criticizing and interfering all day long. I'm sure your child's teachers take a deep breath when they see you coming and let it go when you're gone.
And you love being that person. That's what gets me. You wear your negativity as a badge of honor. You love telling people how much more you know, how you're the only one who can fix anything, how without you directing the crusade, nothing even gets talked about.
How sad to live such a controlling life. I feel really sorry for the people in your circle, but I am so, so glad I'm not in it.
When entering this professing I didn't consider much. I was single, just out of school, wasn't too worried about the pay. Now with a family it is a decision I've questioned based purely on financial reasons. With 10 years experience, we don't qualify for WIC by only $200. To me that seems a little pathetic that we hold so much blame, trust and responsibility on a profession, but still pay at a rate that flirts with the poverty level (a teacher with 8 or 9 years experience in my district would actually qualify for WIC).
Another point I haven't seen brought up is health care. To make salaries appear more competitive, some schools pay very little towards health care (nearly all in my area-southern Colorado). I haven't seen a report, but from personal experience and others I know in public service have a much higher employer paid health benefits so they actually get to see the majority of their salary. About 25% of my paycheck goes straight just to health insurance. Which stinks because if my school paid me less but covered more in health care we'd actually qualify for assistance like WIC, even though my gross pay would be the same.
A lot of professions offer "tenure" in one form or another. It's just not called tenure.
As I mentioned already, that time off for teachers is needed. Otherwise the system would be stuffed with way overstressed teachers who would be rendered ineffective. That kind of work can't be maintained at a reasonable level constantly for the entire year. They'd start having mental breakdowns, stress leave would skyrocket. You try spending 5 days a week stuck in a room with 30+ of other people's kids and see how you feel.
So teaching is the only overly stressed job is that what you're saying? Because anyone working long hours 50+ or more is prone to burn out. I've been there and I worked in marketing.
Please tell me which professions offer tenure other than teaching.
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
Free, if you are the person in real life that you are here . . . Thank God you don't work in my building. In fact, you would never get hired in my building because my principal would never tolerate your negativity, which she would sense as soon as you opened your mouth. The faculty would hate every minute being around you, and you'd be driven out if you even made it past the interview because we needed a warm body to serve in our aide position.
How dare you reduce my job (and your child's teachers' jobs) to a part time job. Thank God also that I don't teach your child. What hell it would be dealing with you everyday, criticizing and interfering all day long. I'm sure your child's teachers take a deep breath when they see you coming and let it go when you're gone.
And you love being that person. That's what gets me. You wear your negativity as a badge of honor. You love telling people how much more you know, how you're the only one who can fix anything, how without you directing the crusade, nothing even gets talked about.
How sad to live such a controlling life. I feel really sorry for the people in your circle, but I am so, so glad I'm not in it.
Many of the people who complain about teachers and their days off are the same people who can't wait for summer to end so they can throw their child, along with 30 other kids, into a classroom presided over by a teacher.
And yeah, individually bargained contracts. And since you say, what dreams, you have no Union where you are yet you have a contract about how long you work and that you can't work past 240 in the afternoon, etc. who's contract is it then.
Jesus F-ING Christ. I didn't say I CAN'T work past 2:40. I said anything I do past 2:40 is free labor, so I'm very judicious about what I do for free. For someone whose handle is Free, you can't understand free? Do you know anything about contract law? My district's lawyers write ours. A contract can be written by anyone. Doesn't take a union. I know as a teacher's aide you probably don't have one, so I can sort of see why you're confused????
Free, do you actually want to know why no teachers are discussing common core? It is because they are too busy defending themselves against your assertion that their careers are one big perkfest.
Please explain how a week or more for Christmas break, bank holidays, thanksgiving, spring break, winter break, Snow days, and summer break are not perks. Anyone working in a professional Field don't get half of that off. Hawks and I are simply pointing that fact out with many people excusing it while also pointing out that it is a full-time job. With all that time off, and the full-time pay, pension and tenure the teachers in my state get at least, it deserves speculation. In other states were teachers get low pay, I am not saying they should, but comparing the time and days worked, the pay might be more in line.
Yup. Correct. You... and one other person- pjhawks (who seems more moderate) are continuing with this assertion.
I posted a model of comparison for you. I posted- twice now- the pay structures and typical work schedules- for teachers and nurses in a side by side format.
You both have ignored the comparison which clearly shows nurses work the same amount of days and get paid more (much more in fact).
As expressed, I am not begrudging nurses of anything- they deserve all they get and more. I posted it to squash your biased claim.
A lot of professions offer "tenure" in one form or another. It's just not called tenure.
As I mentioned already, that time off for teachers is needed. Otherwise the system would be stuffed with way overstressed teachers who would be rendered ineffective. That kind of work can't be maintained at a reasonable level constantly for the entire year. They'd start having mental breakdowns, stress leave would skyrocket. You try spending 5 days a week stuck in a room with 30+ of other people's kids and see how you feel.
So teaching is the only overly stressed job is that what you're saying? Because anyone working long hours 50+ or more is prone to burn out. I've been there and I worked in marketing.
Please tell me which professions offer tenure other than teaching.
Why would you think that's what I'm saying?? I never hinted that that is what I was saying, what a strange leap for you to take. But teaching is the only profession where someone spend the whole day with so many kids. Working 50 hours at a desk isn't not in any way comparable to spending days with a room full of children and trying to actually teach them things and trying to make them decent people (often against all odds given their home lives). I don't know why you keep comparing office jobs with teaching. It makes no sense.... Add to that the unbelievable burden that parents have been allowed to become on teachers.... I'd take 50+ hours a week in marketing any day. I barely know how teachers do it.
Uh, ever heard of seniority??? It amounts to the same thing in many industries.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
You guys can try to prove me wrong on the part-time job aspect all you want. I have family in teaching, I work in a school, I know. My sisters hate it when I tell them they have a part-time job toO, yet they gloat about all the time off they have.
Many of the people who complain about teachers and their days off are the same people who can't wait for summer to end so they can throw their child, along with 30 other kids, into a classroom presided over by a teacher.
One here has already stated she wants her kid back in the classroom instead of at the house for summer break.
You guys can try to prove me wrong on the part-time job aspect all you want. I have family in teaching, I work in a school, I know. My sisters hate it when I tell them they have a part-time job toO, yet they gloat about all the time off they have.
Maybe if your attitude towards them was different they wouldn't gloat.
Many of the people who complain about teachers and their days off are the same people who can't wait for summer to end so they can throw their child, along with 30 other kids, into a classroom presided over by a teacher.
One here has already stated she wants her kid back in the classroom instead of at the house for summer break.
Not sure if you are talking about me, I don't really care. I have a special needs student who needs daily practice. There's nobody in my house waiting for school to start because it's year-round at our house.
You guys can try to prove me wrong on the part-time job aspect all you want. I have family in teaching, I work in a school, I know. My sisters hate it when I tell them they have a part-time job toO, yet they gloat about all the time off they have.
Maybe if your attitude towards them was different they wouldn't gloat.
No, especially at Christmas, my sisters love to rub it in that they don't have to go back to work the next day or the next day or the next.
You guys can try to prove me wrong on the part-time job aspect all you want. I have family in teaching, I work in a school, I know. My sisters hate it when I tell them they have a part-time job toO, yet they gloat about all the time off they have.
Yeah, we know. You know everything and you're smarter and more insightful than the rest of us put together. You know more about teaching than teachers even! Certainly more than me whose parents were both educators (mom a teacher, dad a principal). Very impressive.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Comments
You've spent the majority of your previous efforts trying to establish that teachers are underworked and overpaid. What are you trying to get at here?
Your disdain for teachers is obvious (in the event you weren't making it obvious): even here... you seem to imply that because no teachers have run with this change of discourse... that teachers are... what? Uncaring? Greedy? Lazy? Not on par with you when it comes to educational issues?
Were your childhoods that disappointing? Yikes.
I'll give you a break though- seeing as you're asking for one.
And mow the freaking lawn.
Cheers,
HFD
Start another thread if you want to talk about Common Core. We'll meet you over there.
Good luck with the last sentence.
In the middle of the teaching argument there are students who lose out big time. Too much finger-pointing and common core that fail our kids. And that should be the focus, not teacher pay and how great teachers are in general (many are fantastic especially special Ed.) but how are the students benefiting and learning. It's what's getting lost in the conversation.
As I mentioned already, that time off for teachers is needed. Otherwise the system would be stuffed with way overstressed teachers who would be rendered ineffective. That kind of work can't be maintained at a reasonable level constantly for the entire year. They'd start having mental breakdowns, stress leave would skyrocket. You try spending 5 days a week stuck in a room with 30+ of other people's kids and see how you feel.
You're always going to get the critics of the world that are, I don't know, say... 'challenged' to see things from a multi-directional perspective, but I've seen some quality people (based on what I have come to understand of them from ther posting history) come into this thread and support teaching in a very strong way.
As I said before, it's really encouraging.
Free, if you are the person in real life that you are here . . . Thank God you don't work in my building. In fact, you would never get hired in my building because my principal would never tolerate your negativity, which she would sense as soon as you opened your mouth. The faculty would hate every minute being around you, and you'd be driven out if you even made it past the interview because we needed a warm body to serve in our aide position.
How dare you reduce my job (and your child's teachers' jobs) to a part time job. Thank God also that I don't teach your child. What hell it would be dealing with you everyday, criticizing and interfering all day long. I'm sure your child's teachers take a deep breath when they see you coming and let it go when you're gone.
And you love being that person. That's what gets me. You wear your negativity as a badge of honor. You love telling people how much more you know, how you're the only one who can fix anything, how without you directing the crusade, nothing even gets talked about.
How sad to live such a controlling life. I feel really sorry for the people in your circle, but I am so, so glad I'm not in it.
Now with a family it is a decision I've questioned based purely on financial reasons. With 10 years experience, we don't qualify for WIC by only $200. To me that seems a little pathetic that we hold so much blame, trust and responsibility on a profession, but still pay at a rate that flirts with the poverty level (a teacher with 8 or 9 years experience in my district would actually qualify for WIC).
Another point I haven't seen brought up is health care. To make salaries appear more competitive, some schools pay very little towards health care (nearly all in my area-southern Colorado). I haven't seen a report, but from personal experience and others I know in public service have a much higher employer paid health benefits so they actually get to see the majority of their salary. About 25% of my paycheck goes straight just to health insurance. Which stinks because if my school paid me less but covered more in health care we'd actually qualify for assistance like WIC, even though my gross pay would be the same.
Please tell me which professions offer tenure other than teaching.
I posted a model of comparison for you. I posted- twice now- the pay structures and typical work schedules- for teachers and nurses in a side by side format.
You both have ignored the comparison which clearly shows nurses work the same amount of days and get paid more (much more in fact).
As expressed, I am not begrudging nurses of anything- they deserve all they get and more. I posted it to squash your biased claim.
Uh, ever heard of seniority??? It amounts to the same thing in many industries.