You guys can try to prove me wrong on the part-time job aspect all you want. I have family in teaching, I work in a school, I know. My sisters hate it when I tell them they have a part-time job toO, yet they gloat about all the time off they have.
Lol.
Stupid me. I've been arguing with an expert who has formulated her opinions from her sisters expressing joy on their time off. Who the hell likes time off to be a human being?
Even though I was likely high as fuck, I can distinctly remember my buddy and I ordering a pizza on a Friday night after our high school football game and opening the door to Mr. Newsome (our English teacher) delivering that pizza.
That was the day I decided not to be a high school English teacher. Up until that night, it was my career goal.
And kids need time to be kids. You adults need to shake your heads if you think kids should be in school over the summer.
Were your childhoods that disappointing? Yikes.
no one has advocated that. it's really not this hard to follow the discussion. teachers work less and get paid less but apparently pointing that out is somehow wrong.
And kids need time to be kids. You adults need to shake your heads if you think kids should be in school over the summer.
Were your childhoods that disappointing? Yikes.
no one has advocated that. it's really not this hard to follow the discussion. teachers work less and get paid less but apparently pointing that out is somehow wrong.
Free, do you actually want to know why no teachers are discussing common core? It is because they are too busy defending themselves against your assertion that their careers are one big perkfest.
Please explain how a week or more for Christmas break, bank holidays, thanksgiving, spring break, winter break, Snow days, and summer break are not perks. Anyone working in a professional Field don't get half of that off. Hawks and I are simply pointing that fact out with many people excusing it while also pointing out that it is a full-time job. With all that time off, and the full-time pay, pension and tenure the teachers in my state get at least, it deserves speculation. In other states were teachers get low pay, I am not saying they should, but comparing the time and days worked, the pay might be more in line.
Yup. Correct. You... and one other person- pjhawks (who seems more moderate) are continuing with this assertion.
I posted a model of comparison for you. I posted- twice now- the pay structures and typical work schedules- for teachers and nurses in a side by side format.
You both have ignored the comparison which clearly shows nurses work the same amount of days and get paid more (much more in fact).
As expressed, I am not begrudging nurses of anything- they deserve all they get and more. I posted it to squash your biased claim.
you are in Canada. I know nothing about work rules or what goes on in Canada so i can't make any comment on nurses vs. teachers in Canda.
A lot of professions offer "tenure" in one form or another. It's just not called tenure.
As I mentioned already, that time off for teachers is needed. Otherwise the system would be stuffed with way overstressed teachers who would be rendered ineffective. That kind of work can't be maintained at a reasonable level constantly for the entire year. They'd start having mental breakdowns, stress leave would skyrocket. You try spending 5 days a week stuck in a room with 30+ of other people's kids and see how you feel.
So teaching is the only overly stressed job is that what you're saying? Because anyone working long hours 50+ or more is prone to burn out. I've been there and I worked in marketing.
Please tell me which professions offer tenure other than teaching.
Why would you think that's what I'm saying?? I never hinted that that is what I was saying, what a strange leap for you to take. But teaching is the only profession where someone spend the whole day with so many kids. Working 50 hours at a desk isn't not in any way comparable to spending days with a room full of children and trying to actually teach them things and trying to make them decent people (often against all odds given their home lives). I don't know why you keep comparing office jobs with teaching. It makes no sense.... Add to that the unbelievable burden that parents have been allowed to become on teachers.... I'd take 50+ hours a week in marketing any day. I barely know how teachers do it.
Uh, ever heard of seniority??? It amounts to the same thing in many industries.
seniority vs. tenure is not close the same thing. once you have tenure as a teacher it is almost impossible to get fired. i know many people in 'senior' positions in business who lost their jobs. not equivalent...try again.
And kids need time to be kids. You adults need to shake your heads if you think kids should be in school over the summer.
Were your childhoods that disappointing? Yikes.
no one has advocated that. it's really not this hard to follow the discussion. teachers work less and get paid less but apparently pointing that out is somehow wrong.
Still waiting, Hawks.
You're fraudulent in this discussion.
well my response is above but ill repeat it as maybe the internet doesn't connect as fast up north. your example was in canada. I know nothing about Canadian business or how things work up there other than you have great hockery and great beer. i don't feel i can comment on Canadian teachers vs. nurses.
A lot of professions offer "tenure" in one form or another. It's just not called tenure.
As I mentioned already, that time off for teachers is needed. Otherwise the system would be stuffed with way overstressed teachers who would be rendered ineffective. That kind of work can't be maintained at a reasonable level constantly for the entire year. They'd start having mental breakdowns, stress leave would skyrocket. You try spending 5 days a week stuck in a room with 30+ of other people's kids and see how you feel.
So teaching is the only overly stressed job is that what you're saying? Because anyone working long hours 50+ or more is prone to burn out. I've been there and I worked in marketing.
Please tell me which professions offer tenure other than teaching.
Why would you think that's what I'm saying?? I never hinted that that is what I was saying, what a strange leap for you to take. But teaching is the only profession where someone spend the whole day with so many kids. Working 50 hours at a desk isn't not in any way comparable to spending days with a room full of children and trying to actually teach them things and trying to make them decent people (often against all odds given their home lives). I don't know why you keep comparing office jobs with teaching. It makes no sense.... Add to that the unbelievable burden that parents have been allowed to become on teachers.... I'd take 50+ hours a week in marketing any day. I barely know how teachers do it.
Uh, ever heard of seniority??? It amounts to the same thing in many industries.
seniority vs. tenure is not close the same thing. once you have tenure as a teacher it is almost impossible to get fired. i know many people in 'senior' positions in business who lost their jobs. not equivalent...try again.
Having a senior position and having seniority is not the same thing. It's almost impossible to get fired in any union without very good cause and only through progressive discipline, just like with teachers (some teachers unions are better than others). A lot of unions around in a lot of industries. Try again. I am pro-union btw, but not pro-bad-union. I think ensuring that workers are only fired for just cause is a great thing, and many unions ensure that. But I don't support those unions that really make it impossible to fire completely incompetent employees.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
A lot of professions offer "tenure" in one form or another. It's just not called tenure.
As I mentioned already, that time off for teachers is needed. Otherwise the system would be stuffed with way overstressed teachers who would be rendered ineffective. That kind of work can't be maintained at a reasonable level constantly for the entire year. They'd start having mental breakdowns, stress leave would skyrocket. You try spending 5 days a week stuck in a room with 30+ of other people's kids and see how you feel.
So teaching is the only overly stressed job is that what you're saying? Because anyone working long hours 50+ or more is prone to burn out. I've been there and I worked in marketing.
Please tell me which professions offer tenure other than teaching.
Why would you think that's what I'm saying?? I never hinted that that is what I was saying, what a strange leap for you to take. But teaching is the only profession where someone spend the whole day with so many kids. Working 50 hours at a desk isn't not in any way comparable to spending days with a room full of children and trying to actually teach them things and trying to make them decent people (often against all odds given their home lives). I don't know why you keep comparing office jobs with teaching. It makes no sense.... Add to that the unbelievable burden that parents have been allowed to become on teachers.... I'd take 50+ hours a week in marketing any day. I barely know how teachers do it.
Uh, ever heard of seniority??? It amounts to the same thing in many industries.
seniority vs. tenure is not close the same thing. once you have tenure as a teacher it is almost impossible to get fired. i know many people in 'senior' positions in business who lost their jobs. not equivalent...try again.
Having a senior position and having seniority is not the same thing. It's almost impossible to get fired in any union without very good cause and only through progressive discipline, just like with teachers. A lot of unions around.
not a lot of professions with college degrees are unionized (again back to the original study presented in the OP). almost none in business positions. try again.
A lot of professions offer "tenure" in one form or another. It's just not called tenure.
As I mentioned already, that time off for teachers is needed. Otherwise the system would be stuffed with way overstressed teachers who would be rendered ineffective. That kind of work can't be maintained at a reasonable level constantly for the entire year. They'd start having mental breakdowns, stress leave would skyrocket. You try spending 5 days a week stuck in a room with 30+ of other people's kids and see how you feel.
So teaching is the only overly stressed job is that what you're saying? Because anyone working long hours 50+ or more is prone to burn out. I've been there and I worked in marketing.
Please tell me which professions offer tenure other than teaching.
Why would you think that's what I'm saying?? I never hinted that that is what I was saying, what a strange leap for you to take. But teaching is the only profession where someone spend the whole day with so many kids. Working 50 hours at a desk isn't not in any way comparable to spending days with a room full of children and trying to actually teach them things and trying to make them decent people (often against all odds given their home lives). I don't know why you keep comparing office jobs with teaching. It makes no sense.... Add to that the unbelievable burden that parents have been allowed to become on teachers.... I'd take 50+ hours a week in marketing any day. I barely know how teachers do it.
Uh, ever heard of seniority??? It amounts to the same thing in many industries.
seniority vs. tenure is not close the same thing. once you have tenure as a teacher it is almost impossible to get fired. i know many people in 'senior' positions in business who lost their jobs. not equivalent...try again.
Having a senior position and having seniority is not the same thing. It's almost impossible to get fired in any union without very good cause and only through progressive discipline, just like with teachers. A lot of unions around.
not a lot of professions with college degrees are unionized (again back to the original study presented in the OP). almost none in business positions. try again.
Do you know how idiotic that "try again" thing is? Anyway, TONS of professions that require degrees are unionized. Ever heard of universities? This university educated person who works at one has. I'm union and so is every single administrator and professor and teaching assistant in every university in Canada. And so are teachers. All university educated. And so are engineers, city administrators, and so on and so and so on. I am aware that private businesses are not union.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
A lot of professions offer "tenure" in one form or another. It's just not called tenure.
As I mentioned already, that time off for teachers is needed. Otherwise the system would be stuffed with way overstressed teachers who would be rendered ineffective. That kind of work can't be maintained at a reasonable level constantly for the entire year. They'd start having mental breakdowns, stress leave would skyrocket. You try spending 5 days a week stuck in a room with 30+ of other people's kids and see how you feel.
So teaching is the only overly stressed job is that what you're saying? Because anyone working long hours 50+ or more is prone to burn out. I've been there and I worked in marketing.
Please tell me which professions offer tenure other than teaching.
Why would you think that's what I'm saying?? I never hinted that that is what I was saying, what a strange leap for you to take. But teaching is the only profession where someone spend the whole day with so many kids. Working 50 hours at a desk isn't not in any way comparable to spending days with a room full of children and trying to actually teach them things and trying to make them decent people (often against all odds given their home lives). I don't know why you keep comparing office jobs with teaching. It makes no sense.... Add to that the unbelievable burden that parents have been allowed to become on teachers.... I'd take 50+ hours a week in marketing any day. I barely know how teachers do it.
Uh, ever heard of seniority??? It amounts to the same thing in many industries.
seniority vs. tenure is not close the same thing. once you have tenure as a teacher it is almost impossible to get fired. i know many people in 'senior' positions in business who lost their jobs. not equivalent...try again.
I think tenure, while often abused, is necessary in teaching. Since you are comparing teaching to other jobs then I cannot think of another job that gets as many complaints brought against them as teachers. When you have roughly 150+ students a year with 150-300 parents involved we all know the outcome. If that many complaints happened in another profession you would be fired.
A lot of professions offer "tenure" in one form or another. It's just not called tenure.
As I mentioned already, that time off for teachers is needed. Otherwise the system would be stuffed with way overstressed teachers who would be rendered ineffective. That kind of work can't be maintained at a reasonable level constantly for the entire year. They'd start having mental breakdowns, stress leave would skyrocket. You try spending 5 days a week stuck in a room with 30+ of other people's kids and see how you feel.
So teaching is the only overly stressed job is that what you're saying? Because anyone working long hours 50+ or more is prone to burn out. I've been there and I worked in marketing.
Please tell me which professions offer tenure other than teaching.
Why would you think that's what I'm saying?? I never hinted that that is what I was saying, what a strange leap for you to take. But teaching is the only profession where someone spend the whole day with so many kids. Working 50 hours at a desk isn't not in any way comparable to spending days with a room full of children and trying to actually teach them things and trying to make them decent people (often against all odds given their home lives). I don't know why you keep comparing office jobs with teaching. It makes no sense.... Add to that the unbelievable burden that parents have been allowed to become on teachers.... I'd take 50+ hours a week in marketing any day. I barely know how teachers do it.
Uh, ever heard of seniority??? It amounts to the same thing in many industries.
seniority vs. tenure is not close the same thing. once you have tenure as a teacher it is almost impossible to get fired. i know many people in 'senior' positions in business who lost their jobs. not equivalent...try again.
Having a senior position and having seniority is not the same thing. It's almost impossible to get fired in any union without very good cause and only through progressive discipline, just like with teachers. A lot of unions around.
not a lot of professions with college degrees are unionized (again back to the original study presented in the OP). almost none in business positions. try again.
Do you know how idiotic that "try again" thing is? Anyway, TONS of professions that require degrees are unionized. Ever heard of universities? This university educated person who works at one has. I'm union and so is every single administrator and professor in every university in Canada. And so are teachers. All university educated. And so are engineers, city administrators, and so on and so and so on. I am aware that private businesses are not union.
as i stated above i have no idea how it works in Canada. Here in the U.S. teachers and nurses are the only people i know who have college degrees who work in their field of study and are in unions. i'm sure i'm missing others but no one i know of.
and the original study posted in the original post refers to teachers vs. other professionals in America. thanks for staying on topic though.
me saying try again is just to encourage you and others to keep trying to discredit the facts i've presented in regards to the original study presented in the op. no one has been able to do it yet.
A lot of professions offer "tenure" in one form or another. It's just not called tenure.
As I mentioned already, that time off for teachers is needed. Otherwise the system would be stuffed with way overstressed teachers who would be rendered ineffective. That kind of work can't be maintained at a reasonable level constantly for the entire year. They'd start having mental breakdowns, stress leave would skyrocket. You try spending 5 days a week stuck in a room with 30+ of other people's kids and see how you feel.
So teaching is the only overly stressed job is that what you're saying? Because anyone working long hours 50+ or more is prone to burn out. I've been there and I worked in marketing.
Please tell me which professions offer tenure other than teaching.
Why would you think that's what I'm saying?? I never hinted that that is what I was saying, what a strange leap for you to take. But teaching is the only profession where someone spend the whole day with so many kids. Working 50 hours at a desk isn't not in any way comparable to spending days with a room full of children and trying to actually teach them things and trying to make them decent people (often against all odds given their home lives). I don't know why you keep comparing office jobs with teaching. It makes no sense.... Add to that the unbelievable burden that parents have been allowed to become on teachers.... I'd take 50+ hours a week in marketing any day. I barely know how teachers do it.
Uh, ever heard of seniority??? It amounts to the same thing in many industries.
seniority vs. tenure is not close the same thing. once you have tenure as a teacher it is almost impossible to get fired. i know many people in 'senior' positions in business who lost their jobs. not equivalent...try again.
Having a senior position and having seniority is not the same thing. It's almost impossible to get fired in any union without very good cause and only through progressive discipline, just like with teachers. A lot of unions around.
not a lot of professions with college degrees are unionized (again back to the original study presented in the OP). almost none in business positions. try again.
Do you know how idiotic that "try again" thing is? Anyway, TONS of professions that require degrees are unionized. Ever heard of universities? This university educated person who works at one has. I'm union and so is every single administrator and professor in every university in Canada. And so are teachers. All university educated. And so are engineers, city administrators, and so on and so and so on. I am aware that private businesses are not union.
as i stated above i have no idea how it works in Canada. Here in the U.S. teachers and nurses are the only people i know who have college degrees who work in their field of study and are in unions. i'm sure i'm missing others but no one i know of.
and the original study posted in the original post refers to teachers vs. other professionals in America. thanks for staying on topic though.
me saying try again is just to encourage you and others to keep trying to discredit the facts i've presented in regards to the original study presented in the op. no one has been able to do it yet.
so just for you...try again
Many American public universities have unions, and there are plenty of educated people working in other public sectors under unions. Many industry union jobs require education now too.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Thirty Bills is right. It is heartening to see the support.
I just stepped away to take a breath. I'm only back to let you know I'm leaving the thread to bask in the luxury of my final four days of glorious summer vacation. I'm not going to ruin it by continuing to expose myself to one single jack ass in between all the niceties. Someone clearly should *stop* ignoring all the criticism hurled at him/her and become a more self-reflective person, but that just ain't gonna happen.
Wish I were spending my final weekend at Wrigley, but I couldn't afford it. I blew my money in April instead, and now I eat mac and cheese . . . Hahaha. Maybe I will see some of you in the setlist thread later. Bye!!
A lot of professions offer "tenure" in one form or another. It's just not called tenure.
As I mentioned already, that time off for teachers is needed. Otherwise the system would be stuffed with way overstressed teachers who would be rendered ineffective. That kind of work can't be maintained at a reasonable level constantly for the entire year. They'd start having mental breakdowns, stress leave would skyrocket. You try spending 5 days a week stuck in a room with 30+ of other people's kids and see how you feel.
So teaching is the only overly stressed job is that what you're saying? Because anyone working long hours 50+ or more is prone to burn out. I've been there and I worked in marketing.
Please tell me which professions offer tenure other than teaching.
Why would you think that's what I'm saying?? I never hinted that that is what I was saying, what a strange leap for you to take. But teaching is the only profession where someone spend the whole day with so many kids. Working 50 hours at a desk isn't not in any way comparable to spending days with a room full of children and trying to actually teach them things and trying to make them decent people (often against all odds given their home lives). I don't know why you keep comparing office jobs with teaching. It makes no sense.... Add to that the unbelievable burden that parents have been allowed to become on teachers.... I'd take 50+ hours a week in marketing any day. I barely know how teachers do it.
Uh, ever heard of seniority??? It amounts to the same thing in many industries.
seniority vs. tenure is not close the same thing. once you have tenure as a teacher it is almost impossible to get fired. i know many people in 'senior' positions in business who lost their jobs. not equivalent...try again.
Having a senior position and having seniority is not the same thing. It's almost impossible to get fired in any union without very good cause and only through progressive discipline, just like with teachers. A lot of unions around.
not a lot of professions with college degrees are unionized (again back to the original study presented in the OP). almost none in business positions. try again.
Do you know how idiotic that "try again" thing is? Anyway, TONS of professions that require degrees are unionized. Ever heard of universities? This university educated person who works at one has. I'm union and so is every single administrator and professor in every university in Canada. And so are teachers. All university educated. And so are engineers, city administrators, and so on and so and so on. I am aware that private businesses are not union.
as i stated above i have no idea how it works in Canada. Here in the U.S. teachers and nurses are the only people i know who have college degrees who work in their field of study and are in unions. i'm sure i'm missing others but no one i know of.
and the original study posted in the original post refers to teachers vs. other professionals in America. thanks for staying on topic though.
me saying try again is just to encourage you and others to keep trying to discredit the facts i've presented in regards to the original study presented in the op. no one has been able to do it yet.
so just for you...try again
Since the aviation industry is big in my area I'll name one - SPEEA (Society of Professional Engineering Employees in Aerospace). They are a local union affiliated with the international aerospace union called IFPTE (International Federation of Professional and Technical Engineers). College educated and degreed aerospace engineers.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
Thank you. This is obviously veering off-topic now, but just want to mention that it is always disheartening to see that a lot of people still have an old-fashioned view of unions that seem to have been built sometime between 1950 and 1985.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
A lot of professions offer "tenure" in one form or another. It's just not called tenure.
As I mentioned already, that time off for teachers is needed. Otherwise the system would be stuffed with way overstressed teachers who would be rendered ineffective. That kind of work can't be maintained at a reasonable level constantly for the entire year. They'd start having mental breakdowns, stress leave would skyrocket. You try spending 5 days a week stuck in a room with 30+ of other people's kids and see how you feel.
So teaching is the only overly stressed job is that what you're saying? Because anyone working long hours 50+ or more is prone to burn out. I've been there and I worked in marketing.
Please tell me which professions offer tenure other than teaching.
Why would you think that's what I'm saying?? I never hinted that that is what I was saying, what a strange leap for you to take. But teaching is the only profession where someone spend the whole day with so many kids. Working 50 hours at a desk isn't not in any way comparable to spending days with a room full of children and trying to actually teach them things and trying to make them decent people (often against all odds given their home lives). I don't know why you keep comparing office jobs with teaching. It makes no sense.... Add to that the unbelievable burden that parents have been allowed to become on teachers.... I'd take 50+ hours a week in marketing any day. I barely know how teachers do it.
Uh, ever heard of seniority??? It amounts to the same thing in many industries.
seniority vs. tenure is not close the same thing. once you have tenure as a teacher it is almost impossible to get fired. i know many people in 'senior' positions in business who lost their jobs. not equivalent...try again.
Having a senior position and having seniority is not the same thing. It's almost impossible to get fired in any union without very good cause and only through progressive discipline, just like with teachers. A lot of unions around.
not a lot of professions with college degrees are unionized (again back to the original study presented in the OP). almost none in business positions. try again.
Do you know how idiotic that "try again" thing is? Anyway, TONS of professions that require degrees are unionized. Ever heard of universities? This university educated person who works at one has. I'm union and so is every single administrator and professor in every university in Canada. And so are teachers. All university educated. And so are engineers, city administrators, and so on and so and so on. I am aware that private businesses are not union.
as i stated above i have no idea how it works in Canada. Here in the U.S. teachers and nurses are the only people i know who have college degrees who work in their field of study and are in unions. i'm sure i'm missing others but no one i know of.
and the original study posted in the original post refers to teachers vs. other professionals in America. thanks for staying on topic though.
me saying try again is just to encourage you and others to keep trying to discredit the facts i've presented in regards to the original study presented in the op. no one has been able to do it yet.
so just for you...try again
Since the aviation industry is big in my area I'll name one - SPEEA (Society of Professional Engineering Employees in Aerospace). They are a local union affiliated with the international aerospace union called IFPTE (International Federation of Professional and Technical Engineers). College educated and degreed aerospace engineers.
Thirty Bills is right. It is heartening to see the support.
I just stepped away to take a breath. I'm only back to let you know I'm leaving the thread to bask in the luxury of my final four days of glorious summer vacation. I'm not going to ruin it by continuing to expose myself to one single jack ass in between all the niceties. Someone clearly should *stop* ignoring all the criticism hurled at him/her and become a more self-reflective person, but that just ain't gonna happen.
Wish I were spending my final weekend at Wrigley, but I couldn't afford it. I blew my money in April instead, and now I eat mac and cheese . . . Hahaha. Maybe I will see some of you in the setlist thread later. Bye!!
yes stating facts about the number of days you work is somehow not being supportive.
Lots of jobs have tenure. Pretty much every public service career will have it. Police, fire, sanitation, anything where your check comes from the city, county, or state you will essentially have to break the law to get fired, and even then its a long process. And unfortunately it is necessary. My school has a weak union and many teachers and coaches just got fired, so sons of board members could get their jobs. It happens.
A lot of professions offer "tenure" in one form or another. It's just not called tenure.
As I mentioned already, that time off for teachers is needed. Otherwise the system would be stuffed with way overstressed teachers who would be rendered ineffective. That kind of work can't be maintained at a reasonable level constantly for the entire year. They'd start having mental breakdowns, stress leave would skyrocket. You try spending 5 days a week stuck in a room with 30+ of other people's kids and see how you feel.
So teaching is the only overly stressed job is that what you're saying? Because anyone working long hours 50+ or more is prone to burn out. I've been there and I worked in marketing.
Please tell me which professions offer tenure other than teaching.
Why would you think that's what I'm saying?? I never hinted that that is what I was saying, what a strange leap for you to take. But teaching is the only profession where someone spend the whole day with so many kids. Working 50 hours at a desk isn't not in any way comparable to spending days with a room full of children and trying to actually teach them things and trying to make them decent people (often against all odds given their home lives). I don't know why you keep comparing office jobs with teaching. It makes no sense.... Add to that the unbelievable burden that parents have been allowed to become on teachers.... I'd take 50+ hours a week in marketing any day. I barely know how teachers do it.
Uh, ever heard of seniority??? It amounts to the same thing in many industries.
seniority vs. tenure is not close the same thing. once you have tenure as a teacher it is almost impossible to get fired. i know many people in 'senior' positions in business who lost their jobs. not equivalent...try again.
Having a senior position and having seniority is not the same thing. It's almost impossible to get fired in any union without very good cause and only through progressive discipline, just like with teachers. A lot of unions around.
not a lot of professions with college degrees are unionized (again back to the original study presented in the OP). almost none in business positions. try again.
Do you know how idiotic that "try again" thing is? Anyway, TONS of professions that require degrees are unionized. Ever heard of universities? This university educated person who works at one has. I'm union and so is every single administrator and professor in every university in Canada. And so are teachers. All university educated. And so are engineers, city administrators, and so on and so and so on. I am aware that private businesses are not union.
as i stated above i have no idea how it works in Canada. Here in the U.S. teachers and nurses are the only people i know who have college degrees who work in their field of study and are in unions. i'm sure i'm missing others but no one i know of.
and the original study posted in the original post refers to teachers vs. other professionals in America. thanks for staying on topic though.
me saying try again is just to encourage you and others to keep trying to discredit the facts i've presented in regards to the original study presented in the op. no one has been able to do it yet.
so just for you...try again
Since the aviation industry is big in my area I'll name one - SPEEA (Society of Professional Engineering Employees in Aerospace). They are a local union affiliated with the international aerospace union called IFPTE (International Federation of Professional and Technical Engineers). College educated and degreed aerospace engineers.
do they get up to 70 extra days off per year?
Are they stuck with 30+ kids every work day and forced to deal with horrible parents day in and day out? Are the future of our children and our society so reliant on the work they do? No. All things are not equal, and almost nothing is black and white. And it's not like teachers are getting paid for their days off. They don't earn enough for the days they do work.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
A lot of professions offer "tenure" in one form or another. It's just not called tenure.
As I mentioned already, that time off for teachers is needed. Otherwise the system would be stuffed with way overstressed teachers who would be rendered ineffective. That kind of work can't be maintained at a reasonable level constantly for the entire year. They'd start having mental breakdowns, stress leave would skyrocket. You try spending 5 days a week stuck in a room with 30+ of other people's kids and see how you feel.
So teaching is the only overly stressed job is that what you're saying? Because anyone working long hours 50+ or more is prone to burn out. I've been there and I worked in marketing.
Please tell me which professions offer tenure other than teaching.
Why would you think that's what I'm saying?? I never hinted that that is what I was saying, what a strange leap for you to take. But teaching is the only profession where someone spend the whole day with so many kids. Working 50 hours at a desk isn't not in any way comparable to spending days with a room full of children and trying to actually teach them things and trying to make them decent people (often against all odds given their home lives). I don't know why you keep comparing office jobs with teaching. It makes no sense.... Add to that the unbelievable burden that parents have been allowed to become on teachers.... I'd take 50+ hours a week in marketing any day. I barely know how teachers do it.
Uh, ever heard of seniority??? It amounts to the same thing in many industries.
seniority vs. tenure is not close the same thing. once you have tenure as a teacher it is almost impossible to get fired. i know many people in 'senior' positions in business who lost their jobs. not equivalent...try again.
Having a senior position and having seniority is not the same thing. It's almost impossible to get fired in any union without very good cause and only through progressive discipline, just like with teachers. A lot of unions around.
not a lot of professions with college degrees are unionized (again back to the original study presented in the OP). almost none in business positions. try again.
Do you know how idiotic that "try again" thing is? Anyway, TONS of professions that require degrees are unionized. Ever heard of universities? This university educated person who works at one has. I'm union and so is every single administrator and professor in every university in Canada. And so are teachers. All university educated. And so are engineers, city administrators, and so on and so and so on. I am aware that private businesses are not union.
as i stated above i have no idea how it works in Canada. Here in the U.S. teachers and nurses are the only people i know who have college degrees who work in their field of study and are in unions. i'm sure i'm missing others but no one i know of.
and the original study posted in the original post refers to teachers vs. other professionals in America. thanks for staying on topic though.
me saying try again is just to encourage you and others to keep trying to discredit the facts i've presented in regards to the original study presented in the op. no one has been able to do it yet.
so just for you...try again
Since the aviation industry is big in my area I'll name one - SPEEA (Society of Professional Engineering Employees in Aerospace). They are a local union affiliated with the international aerospace union called IFPTE (International Federation of Professional and Technical Engineers). College educated and degreed aerospace engineers.
do they get up to 70 extra days off per year?
I'll try some math here....
Yes teachers are contracted to 180-190 days a year which puts them at 50-70 (unpaid) days less then other professionals. However, as many teachers on here and elsewhere will tell you......they are unable to get the work done within the contractually allotted time. Therefore they put in an unpaid 10-20 hours per week. Take average of 15 unpaid hours per school week for 37 weeks means they work an extra 555 unpaid hours per school year. Divide by the average of an 8 hour work day and you get roughly 69.5 unpaid days per year. So there's your 50-70 days.
Thank you. This is obviously veering off-topic now, but just want to mention that it is always disheartening to see that a lot of people still have an old-fashioned view of unions that seem to have been built sometime between 1950 and 1985.
again maybe in Canada it is different but here in the US unions have become a lot more about protecting bad employees than doing good for good employees. It's a shame too because unions can be and are important. they've just gone too far.
A lot of professions offer "tenure" in one form or another. It's just not called tenure.
As I mentioned already, that time off for teachers is needed. Otherwise the system would be stuffed with way overstressed teachers who would be rendered ineffective. That kind of work can't be maintained at a reasonable level constantly for the entire year. They'd start having mental breakdowns, stress leave would skyrocket. You try spending 5 days a week stuck in a room with 30+ of other people's kids and see how you feel.
So teaching is the only overly stressed job is that what you're saying? Because anyone working long hours 50+ or more is prone to burn out. I've been there and I worked in marketing.
Please tell me which professions offer tenure other than teaching.
Why would you think that's what I'm saying?? I never hinted that that is what I was saying, what a strange leap for you to take. But teaching is the only profession where someone spend the whole day with so many kids. Working 50 hours at a desk isn't not in any way comparable to spending days with a room full of children and trying to actually teach them things and trying to make them decent people (often against all odds given their home lives). I don't know why you keep comparing office jobs with teaching. It makes no sense.... Add to that the unbelievable burden that parents have been allowed to become on teachers.... I'd take 50+ hours a week in marketing any day. I barely know how teachers do it.
Uh, ever heard of seniority??? It amounts to the same thing in many industries.
seniority vs. tenure is not close the same thing. once you have tenure as a teacher it is almost impossible to get fired. i know many people in 'senior' positions in business who lost their jobs. not equivalent...try again.
Having a senior position and having seniority is not the same thing. It's almost impossible to get fired in any union without very good cause and only through progressive discipline, just like with teachers. A lot of unions around.
not a lot of professions with college degrees are unionized (again back to the original study presented in the OP). almost none in business positions. try again.
Do you know how idiotic that "try again" thing is? Anyway, TONS of professions that require degrees are unionized. Ever heard of universities? This university educated person who works at one has. I'm union and so is every single administrator and professor in every university in Canada. And so are teachers. All university educated. And so are engineers, city administrators, and so on and so and so on. I am aware that private businesses are not union.
as i stated above i have no idea how it works in Canada. Here in the U.S. teachers and nurses are the only people i know who have college degrees who work in their field of study and are in unions. i'm sure i'm missing others but no one i know of.
and the original study posted in the original post refers to teachers vs. other professionals in America. thanks for staying on topic though.
me saying try again is just to encourage you and others to keep trying to discredit the facts i've presented in regards to the original study presented in the op. no one has been able to do it yet.
so just for you...try again
Since the aviation industry is big in my area I'll name one - SPEEA (Society of Professional Engineering Employees in Aerospace). They are a local union affiliated with the international aerospace union called IFPTE (International Federation of Professional and Technical Engineers). College educated and degreed aerospace engineers.
do they get up to 70 extra days off per year?
I'll try some math here....
Yes teachers are contracted to 180-190 days a year which puts them at 50-70 (unpaid) days less then other professionals. However, as many teachers on here and elsewhere will tell you......they are unable to get the work done within the contractually allotted time. Therefore they put in an unpaid 10-20 hours per week. Take average of 15 unpaid hours per school week for 37 weeks means they work an extra 555 unpaid hours per school year. Divide by the average of an 8 hour work day and you get roughly 69.5 unpaid days per year. So there's your 50-70 days.
Do the math If you can
yup cause teachers are the only ones who ever work past their regularly scheduled hours. seriously? come on dude. almost all the people i know who work in an office as a salaried employee are closer to 50 hours per week than 40. so take roughly 50 weeks (accounting for 2 weeks vacation) with an average of say 7 extra hours per week and yup those teachers are now back to 350 hours or 43.75 days short. do the math if you can and then maybe try again.
I wonder how many times people have to mention that teachers work outside of their paid hours for that fact not to be ignored?
i wonder why teachers think no one else works outside their scheduled hours before they acknowledge it. again no professional person i know on salary works only 40 hours a week. it just doesn't happen very often in today's world and economy.
My principle just announced this week that we will have regular, mandatory staff meetings that begin at the end of our contractual day. How many other professions do that? My last school did that too, only it was even worse and was about 3 times a week for a while. And when a teacher couldn't make it for any reason, including daycare costs and having to pay overtime for it, they were written up. I'd like to see any other job sign a contract for 8-4, and then discipline you for only staying an extra half hour and leaving at 4:30 for picking up your kids since they don't pay you enough to afford overtime daycare, and yet still have people fighting for the company.
My principle just announced this week that we will have regular, mandatory staff meetings that begin at the end of our contractual day. How many other professions do that? My last school did that too, only it was even worse and was about 3 times a week for a while. And when a teacher couldn't make it for any reason, including daycare costs and having to pay overtime for it, they were written up. I'd like to see any other job sign a contract for 8-4, and then discipline you for only staying an extra half hour and leaving at 4:30 for picking up your kids since they don't pay you enough to afford overtime daycare, and yet still have people fighting for the company.
lots. many have dinner meetings with clients, conferences, etc. after hours. as i stated before i know of no one who hasn't done work, asnwered emails and calls after stated work hours. it's just the way the world works today. there have been studies done about how it's not good that we are never 'off'' anymore.
My principle just announced this week that we will have regular, mandatory staff meetings that begin at the end of our contractual day. How many other professions do that? My last school did that too, only it was even worse and was about 3 times a week for a while. And when a teacher couldn't make it for any reason, including daycare costs and having to pay overtime for it, they were written up. I'd like to see any other job sign a contract for 8-4, and then discipline you for only staying an extra half hour and leaving at 4:30 for picking up your kids since they don't pay you enough to afford overtime daycare, and yet still have people fighting for the company.
lots. many have dinner meetings with clients, conferences, etc. after hours. as i stated before i know of no one who hasn't done work, asnwered emails and calls after stated work hours. it's just the way the world works today. there have been studies done about how it's not good that we are never 'off'' anymore.
So you think 100% of working people work outside of work hours?? I know that many do this, but come on. And like you said, people SHOULDN'T be doing this.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
My principle just announced this week that we will have regular, mandatory staff meetings that begin at the end of our contractual day. How many other professions do that? My last school did that too, only it was even worse and was about 3 times a week for a while. And when a teacher couldn't make it for any reason, including daycare costs and having to pay overtime for it, they were written up. I'd like to see any other job sign a contract for 8-4, and then discipline you for only staying an extra half hour and leaving at 4:30 for picking up your kids since they don't pay you enough to afford overtime daycare, and yet still have people fighting for the company.
lots. many have dinner meetings with clients, conferences, etc. after hours. as i stated before i know of no one who hasn't done work, asnwered emails and calls after stated work hours. it's just the way the world works today. there have been studies done about how it's not good that we are never 'off'' anymore.
So you think 100% of working people work outside of work hours?? I know that many do this, but come on. And like you said, people SHOULDN'T be doing this.
i couldn't get 100% of the people to say the sky is blue so i'd never say 100% for anything. In general though I think we work too many hours.
My principle just announced this week that we will have regular, mandatory staff meetings that begin at the end of our contractual day. How many other professions do that? My last school did that too, only it was even worse and was about 3 times a week for a while. And when a teacher couldn't make it for any reason, including daycare costs and having to pay overtime for it, they were written up. I'd like to see any other job sign a contract for 8-4, and then discipline you for only staying an extra half hour and leaving at 4:30 for picking up your kids since they don't pay you enough to afford overtime daycare, and yet still have people fighting for the company.
lots. many have dinner meetings with clients, conferences, etc. after hours. as i stated before i know of no one who hasn't done work, asnwered emails and calls after stated work hours. it's just the way the world works today. there have been studies done about how it's not good that we are never 'off'' anymore.
I wish they'd serve us dinner at those meetings. I know lots of people who work in the public sector, police, fire, sanitation, city offices, city engineer, anyone I know employed by the county or city is not forced into long work weeks often, and when they do, they get time and a half pay for it. Most of my college friends who chose a business path aren't working long hours. Bank manger, loan officer, sells insurance, very few work long hours. They show up with the door opens at the posted time and leave 5 minutes after it closes, at the posted time. And most who do work long hours are getting paid into the 6 figures. Maybe our circles are very different, but that is not my experience. My family, friends, spouses of coworkers have very regular hours. The few who don't are making great money; realtor, TV show grip, special effects, and some into sales, but are making great money. I don't know anyone working 60 hours a week on a salary of 45-50k, the average teacher salary in most states. If I took 1 unpaid day a month (or had a furlough day that many schools had just a few years back) just once a month I would be under the poverty level and qualify for government assistance. And that's after teaching for 10 years, not even considering a new teacher who gets paid a lot less than me. That doesn't seem unreasonable to you that teachers are paid so little, but are responsible for your kids?
It seems to me that pjhawks has a very specific (somewhat mysterious) kind of worker in mind and isn't willing to waver from that type while discussing this.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Comments
Stupid me. I've been arguing with an expert who has formulated her opinions from her sisters expressing joy on their time off. Who the hell likes time off to be a human being?
Get back to work you lazy sisters!
Gawd, my head really hurts now.
That was the day I decided not to be a high school English teacher. Up until that night, it was my career goal.
You're fraudulent in this discussion.
I am pro-union btw, but not pro-bad-union. I think ensuring that workers are only fired for just cause is a great thing, and many unions ensure that. But I don't support those unions that really make it impossible to fire completely incompetent employees.
Anyway, TONS of professions that require degrees are unionized. Ever heard of universities? This university educated person who works at one has. I'm union and so is every single administrator and professor and teaching assistant in every university in Canada. And so are teachers. All university educated. And so are engineers, city administrators, and so on and so and so on. I am aware that private businesses are not union.
and the original study posted in the original post refers to teachers vs. other professionals in America. thanks for staying on topic though.
me saying try again is just to encourage you and others to keep trying to discredit the facts i've presented in regards to the original study presented in the op. no one has been able to do it yet.
so just for you...try again
I just stepped away to take a breath. I'm only back to let you know I'm leaving the thread to bask in the luxury of my final four days of glorious summer vacation. I'm not going to ruin it by continuing to expose myself to one single jack ass in between all the niceties. Someone clearly should *stop* ignoring all the criticism hurled at him/her and become a more self-reflective person, but that just ain't gonna happen.
Wish I were spending my final weekend at Wrigley, but I couldn't afford it. I blew my money in April instead, and now I eat mac and cheese . . . Hahaha. Maybe I will see some of you in the setlist thread later. Bye!!
This is obviously veering off-topic now, but just want to mention that it is always disheartening to see that a lot of people still have an old-fashioned view of unions that seem to have been built sometime between 1950 and 1985.
And unfortunately it is necessary. My school has a weak union and many teachers and coaches just got fired, so sons of board members could get their jobs. It happens.
Yes teachers are contracted to 180-190 days a year which puts them at 50-70 (unpaid) days less then other professionals.
However, as many teachers on here and elsewhere will tell you......they are unable to get the work done within the contractually allotted time. Therefore they put in an unpaid 10-20 hours per week. Take average of 15 unpaid hours per school week for 37 weeks means they work an extra 555 unpaid hours per school year. Divide by the average of an 8 hour work day and you get roughly 69.5 unpaid days per year.
So there's your 50-70 days.
Do the math
If you can
My last school did that too, only it was even worse and was about 3 times a week for a while. And when a teacher couldn't make it for any reason, including daycare costs and having to pay overtime for it, they were written up.
I'd like to see any other job sign a contract for 8-4, and then discipline you for only staying an extra half hour and leaving at 4:30 for picking up your kids since they don't pay you enough to afford overtime daycare, and yet still have people fighting for the company.
I know lots of people who work in the public sector, police, fire, sanitation, city offices, city engineer, anyone I know employed by the county or city is not forced into long work weeks often, and when they do, they get time and a half pay for it.
Most of my college friends who chose a business path aren't working long hours. Bank manger, loan officer, sells insurance, very few work long hours. They show up with the door opens at the posted time and leave 5 minutes after it closes, at the posted time. And most who do work long hours are getting paid into the 6 figures.
Maybe our circles are very different, but that is not my experience. My family, friends, spouses of coworkers have very regular hours. The few who don't are making great money; realtor, TV show grip, special effects, and some into sales, but are making great money. I don't know anyone working 60 hours a week on a salary of 45-50k, the average teacher salary in most states.
If I took 1 unpaid day a month (or had a furlough day that many schools had just a few years back) just once a month I would be under the poverty level and qualify for government assistance. And that's after teaching for 10 years, not even considering a new teacher who gets paid a lot less than me. That doesn't seem unreasonable to you that teachers are paid so little, but are responsible for your kids?