The Debate

The "dumbing down" of America is a really real thing, and I think this issue has a fair bit to do with that.

Last-12-Exit said:

Then instead of making tax payers foot the bill for millions of college kids, why not regulate college tuition at public universities?

The cons hate that just as much, they see ALL schools as liberal indoctrination centers.

Godfather. said:

I'd rather use our tax money to fund college students rather than support ilegal citizens and other countries, that's a boat load of cashiesh.

Godfather.

Agreed, and spend more on investing in us, and less in "defense contracts" which are bloated and have little to do with defense and more to do with commerce.

Last-12-Exit said:

Then instead of making tax payers foot the bill for millions of college kids, why not regulate college tuition at public universities?

What do you mean "regulate"? If they're not being subsidized, then that would just mean that the public universities wouldn't have enough money to be good schools, while the private universities would get all the good teachers and programs because they would still have all the money, making the current problem worse, not better.

Godfather. said:

I'd rather use our tax money to fund college students rather than support ilegal citizens and other countries, that's a boat load of cashiesh.

Godfather.

and bombs to blow up people.

PJ_Soul said:

Last-12-Exit said:

PJ_Soul said:

Last-12-Exit said:

PJ_Soul said:

Last-12-Exit said:

callen said:

When Hillary unveiled free college paid by me I cringed.

That makes me sick to my stomach.

It makes me sick to my stomach that education in America has been co-opted by the wealthy, further widening the gap between the rich and everyone else.

So you think it's ok to have tax money pay for college? If that ever happens, I want reimbursed for what I paid for college. Enough tax dollars are spent on welfare. We already pay for kids to go to school from kindergarten through 12th grade. It is not mandatory to have a college education. If you want it, you should have to pay for it yourself.

I don't think it should be free, but I absolutely think that post-secondary education should be subsidized so that it's affordable for regular students and so that student loans don't ruin their lives after graduation, yes. It's not like that's an outrageous concept. A lot of countries do that very successfully.

Regular students? Most of us were and are regular students. The 1% of the rich still only makes 1% of the students.

Who said anything about 1%?
$20,000+ a year for tuition alone is absolutely unacceptable IMO, as is $100,000 worth of student loans.

I think we need to be careful when we say "20,000 a year for tuition is unacceptable." Do we mean 20,000 for the tuition, or do we mean 20,000 for the whole dang package -- room and board (unlimited Wi-Fi and farm-to-table dining hall), fees (the climbing gym with attached sauna), books, parking dad's SUV, etc?

Just to keep it real, I just looked some thing up. I live five miles away from a reputable, major state university, and according to their web site I just read, their 2015-16 costs are outlined clearly for prospective students who would like to *choose* that reputable state school. It does come to about 20,000 a year -- for the whole dang package. Now, given that my whole dang package as a single working professional in the same neighborhood comes to about $50 grand a year, I would say the young stallions at that school have it made. All they have to do is wake up, go to class, live a hell of a life on campus, have no worries except to ace the calculus exam and maybe get laid on a Friday night. For 20 grand a year.

If little Junior were NOT in school, would he get all he gets AT school for less than 20,000 a year? NO! He would be humping a minimum wage job, living in his parent's basement next door to me smoking dope in between shifts, with absolutely no prospects at all (and we have plenty of those in my neighborhood). His parents would be paying more than 50,000 grand to support themselves and little Junior, and sooner or later, he will be collecting a welfare check after they finally kick him out because they've had enough of his mooching of them. If that's not the life little Junior or his parents want, then he and they need to buck up, pay for their shit, get help from the bank if they need it. But it's not my job to pay my 50 grand for me, and then subsidize a portion for Junior.

And besides, if little Junior wanted to go to that perfectly fine, reputable state school while continuing to live in his parents' basement, it would only cost him 10,000 a year, not 20. That is also Junior's CHOICE.

Clearly my philosophical stance is that people in life make choices. And then they pay for them.

PJ_Soul said:

The "dumbing down" of America is a really real thing, and I think this issue has a fair bit to do with that.

PJ-Soul, I totally respect your opinion. The average American truly is dumb. I am a public educator of 20+ years and what I have seen happen over a generation is sickening. . . .

But it is just factually incorrect to say that a lack of access to higher education has caused the dumbing down. There are more students going to college now than at any other time in American history. And if you look at the average GPA in America over the past 20 years, you will see nothing but grossly inflated grades at the same time standardized scores have plummeted. Students are admitted to college with A averages and then they take their course placement tests and we find that close to 60% of students need remedial writing and math classes in college because they were pushed into a track they should never have found themselves to begin with. People have been lying to them all their lives about what special geniuses they are, and it finally hits them when they get to college that they are not. But nobody can say, "Oh, you don't really belong in a four year academic institution" because that would just be too politically incorrect and the so-called "under-served" populations will start crying about how their lives matter too, and the white, middle class helicopter moms will pull out their claws and gauge your eyes out. The fact is, colleges and universities in America can't keep up with the demands placed on them -- and *that* has more than a fair bit to do with the reason tuition and fees are going up.

I think you said in another post that tuition should be subsidized for people who need it. Every college or university in America has a financial aid office for students who truly need it. I needed it. It's how I got hooked up to what apparently was a fantastic student loan. There are grants, work study programs, scholarships. You name it. The truth is -- anybody who wants to go to college in America can, and anybody who regrets their investment in their education probably should never have gone in the first place. To expand an already effective needs-based program to a 340 BILLION dollar entitlement for everybody is just wrong.