So the Co-Pilot...

rr165892 said:

rgambs said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

oftenreading said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Even if the pilot had gotten into the cockpit, what was he going to do?

It's cramped in there and the controls were set for the ground. He would have needed to incapacitate the idiot and correct the crash- not easy to do.

I recognize it was this plane's only hope outside of a change of heart, but I think we can agree that it was hardly the solution.

Would he have fought? God knows (can I even say that on here? ). Maybe he would have just sat there blankly as he seems to have done during the whole process. But you have a point, so perhaps I should have said that exact same situation with the pilot being locked out would not have occurred, whether or not he could have halted the dive when he got in there.

Who knows?

I think the only thing relatively safe to say is that the idiot felt secure doing what he did locked away from everyone. He made himself oblivious to the pleas and screams from the other side of the door by locking himself into his little happy place.

Completely worthless individual.

It's not that we excuse his behavior it's just that we chafe at phrases like "his little happy place" and "completely worthless individual"
You don't think he was valued by his mother and father, family and friends? He had worth, all humans do. It is a terrible tragedy that he took so many lives, and there is no excusing murder, but that doesn't mean his whole life is worthless.
You pass incredibly heavy, extremely emotional judgements on these boards regularly, you shouldn't be surprised that level heads counter you with rational responses.

No,no,no Gambsy.
Every ounce of good will this clown built up in his lifetime is washed away and irrelevant the minute he chose to end the lives of everyone on board.Dont you think the people who were murdered were valued by their loved ones?Lots of grieving Moms,Dads,siblings,children.What of their worth.Wont you also consider advocating for them?

Thirty and I agree on most of these issues,and this is no different.The judgement He is passing is correct and warranted.He is no doubt a man of exceptional thinking.:)

The "level Heads" need to wake the fuck up and quit justifying the reasons that lead to mass murder.The Co pilot erased any worth he had in this world upon his decision to mountain side the plane.

So how do you think we as a society can help try to stop similar events in the future? By trying to understand why it happened by examining the perpetrator, or just sit and calling him names to make yourself feel good about your own moral outrage?

HughFreakingDillon said:

rr165892 said:

rgambs said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

oftenreading said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Even if the pilot had gotten into the cockpit, what was he going to do?

It's cramped in there and the controls were set for the ground. He would have needed to incapacitate the idiot and correct the crash- not easy to do.

I recognize it was this plane's only hope outside of a change of heart, but I think we can agree that it was hardly the solution.

Would he have fought? God knows (can I even say that on here? ). Maybe he would have just sat there blankly as he seems to have done during the whole process. But you have a point, so perhaps I should have said that exact same situation with the pilot being locked out would not have occurred, whether or not he could have halted the dive when he got in there.

Who knows?

I think the only thing relatively safe to say is that the idiot felt secure doing what he did locked away from everyone. He made himself oblivious to the pleas and screams from the other side of the door by locking himself into his little happy place.

Completely worthless individual.

It's not that we excuse his behavior it's just that we chafe at phrases like "his little happy place" and "completely worthless individual"
You don't think he was valued by his mother and father, family and friends? He had worth, all humans do. It is a terrible tragedy that he took so many lives, and there is no excusing murder, but that doesn't mean his whole life is worthless.
You pass incredibly heavy, extremely emotional judgements on these boards regularly, you shouldn't be surprised that level heads counter you with rational responses.

No,no,no Gambsy.
Every ounce of good will this clown built up in his lifetime is washed away and irrelevant the minute he chose to end the lives of everyone on board.Dont you think the people who were murdered were valued by their loved ones?Lots of grieving Moms,Dads,siblings,children.What of their worth.Wont you also consider advocating for them?

Thirty and I agree on most of these issues,and this is no different.The judgement He is passing is correct and warranted.He is no doubt a man of exceptional thinking.:)

The "level Heads" need to wake the fuck up and quit justifying the reasons that lead to mass murder.The Co pilot erased any worth he had in this world upon his decision to mountain side the plane.

So how do you think we as a society can help try to stop similar events in the future? By trying to understand why it happened by examining the perpetrator, or just sit and calling him names to make yourself feel good about your own moral outrage?

"Sit and call him names to make yourself feel good about your own moral outrage."

What a ridiculous thing to say or suggest (not to mention arrogant).

So tell me... who on this forum is going to examine the perpetrator in such a way that we might be able to stop something like this in the future? I mean, in such a way that we don't regurgitate what we are fed by those feeding us?

Nobody right? In the meantime, at a bare minimum, let the cave people cuss this guy out without being too judgmental yourself.

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

deadendp said:

rr165892 said:

Wow,this site and its apologists never seem to quit amazing me.
We prop up terrorists,Criminals,Mass Murderers.Always finding the excuse why they did what they did.Shit John McCain is a more hated villian around here,then someone who offs hundreds.

What about the victims?Whos going to bat for them?What if it was your spouse or child on that plane?
I totally get mental Illness.I know it's real and debilitating.I know some see suicide as their only way out.Sure they shit on their kids and family and of course fuck them up mentally for life when they kill themselves.But I'll give you that one solo death ,ok.
But taking 300 people with you? FUCK YOU murdering bastard.I don't care what your problem is.No excuse for murder.
Damn you would think some of you bleeding hearts would be crying for justice as hundreds of women and young children were vaporized because a Co Pilot had a bad day or daddy issues.

Just because I was explaining that I understand mental illness does not make me an apologist. I don't defend what he did. I don't find it excusable. Mental illness, as I said, was an explanation, but not an excuse.

I understand from the front lines what mental illness does. It fucking sucks when you have to go hunt down a family member almost every night for months and months at a time to see if they are still alive. My brother's mental illness threw him into the need to self medicate, which also threw him into the pool of potential overdose. I had to drive around in some nasty neighborhoods with some pretty unsavory people to try to help my brother.

7 years in college didn't kill my innocent look at life-- dealing with my brother and his mental illness did.

Just because there are people here who can understand mental illness being debilitating doesn't mean that we say that flying a plane full of people into a mountainside is okay.

It's not.

It never will be.

Many around here don't understand the difference between explanation and excuse. It's maddening.

To be fair, many around here don't do a very good job ensuring their posts are clear on the fact they are not excusing something.

It seems like a pretty strange conclusion to jump to though. Clear or not, why would anyone think that a single person on here would be trying to make excuses for killing a bunch of people? I think we can just assume that isn't what anyone thinks and go from there.

This comment was made in response to a comment made about people unable to distinguish an explanation from an excuse.

We can make the assumption you ask of people, but let's make another one too: let's also assume people obviously understand underlying factors have contributed to some idiot's actions... however they don't give a shit. Nothing can justify or account for something like this.

HughFreakingDillon said:

rr165892 said:

rgambs said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

oftenreading said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Even if the pilot had gotten into the cockpit, what was he going to do?

It's cramped in there and the controls were set for the ground. He would have needed to incapacitate the idiot and correct the crash- not easy to do.

I recognize it was this plane's only hope outside of a change of heart, but I think we can agree that it was hardly the solution.

Would he have fought? God knows (can I even say that on here? ). Maybe he would have just sat there blankly as he seems to have done during the whole process. But you have a point, so perhaps I should have said that exact same situation with the pilot being locked out would not have occurred, whether or not he could have halted the dive when he got in there.

Who knows?

I think the only thing relatively safe to say is that the idiot felt secure doing what he did locked away from everyone. He made himself oblivious to the pleas and screams from the other side of the door by locking himself into his little happy place.

Completely worthless individual.

It's not that we excuse his behavior it's just that we chafe at phrases like "his little happy place" and "completely worthless individual"
You don't think he was valued by his mother and father, family and friends? He had worth, all humans do. It is a terrible tragedy that he took so many lives, and there is no excusing murder, but that doesn't mean his whole life is worthless.
You pass incredibly heavy, extremely emotional judgements on these boards regularly, you shouldn't be surprised that level heads counter you with rational responses.

No,no,no Gambsy.
Every ounce of good will this clown built up in his lifetime is washed away and irrelevant the minute he chose to end the lives of everyone on board.Dont you think the people who were murdered were valued by their loved ones?Lots of grieving Moms,Dads,siblings,children.What of their worth.Wont you also consider advocating for them?

Thirty and I agree on most of these issues,and this is no different.The judgement He is passing is correct and warranted.He is no doubt a man of exceptional thinking.:)

The "level Heads" need to wake the fuck up and quit justifying the reasons that lead to mass murder.The Co pilot erased any worth he had in this world upon his decision to mountain side the plane.

So how do you think we as a society can help try to stop similar events in the future? By trying to understand why it happened by examining the perpetrator, or just sit and calling him names to make yourself feel good about your own moral outrage?

First off,society can't stop shit.If someone wants to go rouge and light up a theatre,store or airplane.They will do it by whatever means they see fit.
Im not calling him names to make myself feel better about anything.im calling a spade a spade.
The reality is this guy,no matter how fucked up or sick,killed hundreds and scared thousands with his actions.
My question would be why do you give two shits about this guy.
He and his legacy are not worthy of any consideration.

rgambs said:

rr165892 said:

rgambs said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

oftenreading said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Even if the pilot had gotten into the cockpit, what was he going to do?

It's cramped in there and the controls were set for the ground. He would have needed to incapacitate the idiot and correct the crash- not easy to do.

I recognize it was this plane's only hope outside of a change of heart, but I think we can agree that it was hardly the solution.

Would he have fought? God knows (can I even say that on here? ). Maybe he would have just sat there blankly as he seems to have done during the whole process. But you have a point, so perhaps I should have said that exact same situation with the pilot being locked out would not have occurred, whether or not he could have halted the dive when he got in there.

Who knows?

I think the only thing relatively safe to say is that the idiot felt secure doing what he did locked away from everyone. He made himself oblivious to the pleas and screams from the other side of the door by locking himself into his little happy place.

Completely worthless individual.

It's not that we excuse his behavior it's just that we chafe at phrases like "his little happy place" and "completely worthless individual"
You don't think he was valued by his mother and father, family and friends? He had worth, all humans do. It is a terrible tragedy that he took so many lives, and there is no excusing murder, but that doesn't mean his whole life is worthless.
You pass incredibly heavy, extremely emotional judgements on these boards regularly, you shouldn't be surprised that level heads counter you with rational responses.

No,no,no Gambsy.
Every ounce of good will this clown built up in his lifetime is washed away and irrelevant the minute he chose to end the lives of everyone on board.Dont you think the people who were murdered were valued by their loved ones?Lots of grieving Moms,Dads,siblings,children.What of their worth.Wont you also consider advocating for them?

Thirty and I agree on most of these issues,and this is no different.The judgement He is passing is correct and warranted.He is no doubt a man of exceptional thinking.:)

The "level Heads" need to wake the fuck up and quit justifying the reasons that lead to mass murder.The Co pilot erased any worth he had in this world upon his decision to mountain side the plane.

Where do you get the idea that I don't think the people who were murdered weren't valued? Of course I do. Nobody questions that. I am not advocating for anyone, nor am I justifying his actions. Nobody here is justifying, that is absurd. Explanation is not justification by any stretch of the english language.

I'm just saying the emphasis should be on the victims value and none should be placed on the scum bag who ended their lives.
I know explanation is not justification but it is quite telling that there is a clear line in the way some 10c members view acts like this or the police/Brown issue or the ISIS issue.Some of us "seem" to lean heavily on support of the victim family view while others seem to always have a reason why an event happens.

Example-Oh ISIS beheaded 20 school children.Many would start to blame America and our interference in the region,others will blame western buisness interests,etc,etc,etc -Ahhh ,how about we blame they people who committed the acts? It is irrelevant why ,at that point.And casting blame on anyone but the criminal is being an apologist.

Example-Mike brown,poor ,poor Mike Brown.He fucking tried to take a cops gun.period end of story.He signed a death warrant right there.I don't care why.Fuck him.Dont try to take the gun /fight with cop he would still be alive.

There are too many wonderful people doing great things that deserve our attention and consideration.
Murderers,terrorists,criminals are all commiting acts against innocent people in society and don't deserve any additional attention.

HughFreakingDillon said:

rr165892 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

rr165892 said:

rgambs said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

oftenreading said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Even if the pilot had gotten into the cockpit, what was he going to do?

It's cramped in there and the controls were set for the ground. He would have needed to incapacitate the idiot and correct the crash- not easy to do.

I recognize it was this plane's only hope outside of a change of heart, but I think we can agree that it was hardly the solution.

Would he have fought? God knows (can I even say that on here? ). Maybe he would have just sat there blankly as he seems to have done during the whole process. But you have a point, so perhaps I should have said that exact same situation with the pilot being locked out would not have occurred, whether or not he could have halted the dive when he got in there.

Who knows?

I think the only thing relatively safe to say is that the idiot felt secure doing what he did locked away from everyone. He made himself oblivious to the pleas and screams from the other side of the door by locking himself into his little happy place.

Completely worthless individual.

It's not that we excuse his behavior it's just that we chafe at phrases like "his little happy place" and "completely worthless individual"
You don't think he was valued by his mother and father, family and friends? He had worth, all humans do. It is a terrible tragedy that he took so many lives, and there is no excusing murder, but that doesn't mean his whole life is worthless.
You pass incredibly heavy, extremely emotional judgements on these boards regularly, you shouldn't be surprised that level heads counter you with rational responses.

No,no,no Gambsy.
Every ounce of good will this clown built up in his lifetime is washed away and irrelevant the minute he chose to end the lives of everyone on board.Dont you think the people who were murdered were valued by their loved ones?Lots of grieving Moms,Dads,siblings,children.What of their worth.Wont you also consider advocating for them?

Thirty and I agree on most of these issues,and this is no different.The judgement He is passing is correct and warranted.He is no doubt a man of exceptional thinking.:)

The "level Heads" need to wake the fuck up and quit justifying the reasons that lead to mass murder.The Co pilot erased any worth he had in this world upon his decision to mountain side the plane.

So how do you think we as a society can help try to stop similar events in the future? By trying to understand why it happened by examining the perpetrator, or just sit and calling him names to make yourself feel good about your own moral outrage?

First off,society can't stop shit.If someone wants to go rouge and light up a theatre,store or airplane.They will do it by whatever means they see fit.
Im not calling him names to make myself feel better about anything.im calling a spade a spade.
The reality is this guy,no matter how fucked up or sick,killed hundreds and scared thousands with his actions.
My question would be why do you give two shits about this guy.
He and his legacy are not worthy of any consideration.

And therein lies the problem: you (and 30) actually believe that my focus is on concern for the co pilot. Absolutely 100% the opposite. My concern is how this can be prevented in the future, by way of understanding how it happened, which in turn MAY offer some insight into said prevention.

I dont give a flying fuck about the co pilot. I think it's incredibly unfortunate that he allegedly had the illness he had, but you simply don't understand WHY I believe it to be unfortunate. And I gather you will, as 30 does, to continue to choose to misunderstand this very basic principle. Mt concern is for society as a whole. Yours is for a very select group, which does zero to help future victims.

What a crock.

You keep dismissing the notion that you "give a flying fuck about the co-pilot" and then proceed to immediately write, "I think its incredibly unfortunate that he allegedly had the illness he had..."

I mean... huh?

I'm not even going to speak to the rest of your post other than to say I'm not misunderstanding anything here. What I'm not doing is trying to turn a turd into a modern masterpiece. This was a fucking brutal act and the co-pilot can rot no matter how sad he was. It's really that simple.

HughFreakingDillon said:

rr165892 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

rr165892 said:

rgambs said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

oftenreading said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Even if the pilot had gotten into the cockpit, what was he going to do?

It's cramped in there and the controls were set for the ground. He would have needed to incapacitate the idiot and correct the crash- not easy to do.

I recognize it was this plane's only hope outside of a change of heart, but I think we can agree that it was hardly the solution.

Would he have fought? God knows (can I even say that on here? ). Maybe he would have just sat there blankly as he seems to have done during the whole process. But you have a point, so perhaps I should have said that exact same situation with the pilot being locked out would not have occurred, whether or not he could have halted the dive when he got in there.

Who knows?

I think the only thing relatively safe to say is that the idiot felt secure doing what he did locked away from everyone. He made himself oblivious to the pleas and screams from the other side of the door by locking himself into his little happy place.

Completely worthless individual.

It's not that we excuse his behavior it's just that we chafe at phrases like "his little happy place" and "completely worthless individual"
You don't think he was valued by his mother and father, family and friends? He had worth, all humans do. It is a terrible tragedy that he took so many lives, and there is no excusing murder, but that doesn't mean his whole life is worthless.
You pass incredibly heavy, extremely emotional judgements on these boards regularly, you shouldn't be surprised that level heads counter you with rational responses.

No,no,no Gambsy.
Every ounce of good will this clown built up in his lifetime is washed away and irrelevant the minute he chose to end the lives of everyone on board.Dont you think the people who were murdered were valued by their loved ones?Lots of grieving Moms,Dads,siblings,children.What of their worth.Wont you also consider advocating for them?

Thirty and I agree on most of these issues,and this is no different.The judgement He is passing is correct and warranted.He is no doubt a man of exceptional thinking.:)

The "level Heads" need to wake the fuck up and quit justifying the reasons that lead to mass murder.The Co pilot erased any worth he had in this world upon his decision to mountain side the plane.

So how do you think we as a society can help try to stop similar events in the future? By trying to understand why it happened by examining the perpetrator, or just sit and calling him names to make yourself feel good about your own moral outrage?

First off,society can't stop shit.If someone wants to go rouge and light up a theatre,store or airplane.They will do it by whatever means they see fit.
Im not calling him names to make myself feel better about anything.im calling a spade a spade.
The reality is this guy,no matter how fucked up or sick,killed hundreds and scared thousands with his actions.
My question would be why do you give two shits about this guy.
He and his legacy are not worthy of any consideration.

And therein lies the problem: you (and 30) actually believe that my focus is on concern for the co pilot. Absolutely 100% the opposite. My concern is how this can be prevented in the future, by way of understanding how it happened, which in turn MAY offer some insight into said prevention.

I dont give a flying fuck about the co pilot. I think it's incredibly unfortunate that he allegedly had the illness he had, but you simply don't understand WHY I believe it to be unfortunate. And I gather you will, as 30 does, to continue to choose to misunderstand this very basic principle. Mt concern is for society as a whole. Yours is for a very select group, which does zero to help future victims.

My concern is for a select group of society.You are correct.The group I choose to put my concern behind is the innocent unsuspecting victim group.
The Co pilots "illness" is irrelevant.Hes a mass murdering piece of crap.End of discussion.So you Want to prevent it from happening again? then file it in the wtf were they thinking catagory along with columbine,movie theatre shooter,Conneticut shooter etc....Why does anyone kill?Im sure all people who kill intentionally are "sick" in some way.
We can even piggy back this to your ongoing argument in the DP thread.All these people who commit these acts deserve death.They are not on the same level as the rest of us.By their actions and choices.
Illness fixed.

Jason P said:

I agree that we shouldn't have any empathy based on an "illness" causing this act of murder. Based on statements from his ex girlfriend, he had been planning this for over a year, maybe longer. It's not like he was driving a bus and decided to head into incoming traffic at a moments whim.

Yeah, the seemingly-planned aspect of this makes a mental break somewhat hard to swallow. He also "encouraged" the pilot to hit the john.

This taking-others-out-with-you business is bullshit. I get self-destructiveness, can even empathize with it. But plain destruction like this, delivering it upon innocents, no excuses.

This conversation with Thirty comes up every few weeks. It's mentioned frequently and by multiple posters (I can think of five off the top of my head). To his accusers, these fantasies about harsh justice, whether vigilante or by the state, are more disturbing than whatever spin he tries to put on an attempt at prevention thru understanding, to make his detractors out to be bad people for 'justifying' mass murder (talk about a ridiculous, arrogant, judgemental thing to say). And yes, that's the point here. Examining the environments and psychological states associated with people snapping and committing these acts, in order to identify those at risk for such breaks, and prevent them from snapping. And yes rr, this is the same as looking at cause and effect in foreign policy, race relations, and other volatile issues in our society. Amazing to me that people argue against that.

'A reactionary is a somnambulist walking backwards' - FDR

hedonist said:

Jason P said:

I agree that we shouldn't have any empathy based on an "illness" causing this act of murder. Based on statements from his ex girlfriend, he had been planning this for over a year, maybe longer. It's not like he was driving a bus and decided to head into incoming traffic at a moments whim.

Yeah, the seemingly-planned aspect of this makes a mental break somewhat hard to swallow. He also "encouraged" the pilot to hit the john.

This taking-others-out-with-you business is bullshit. I get self-destructiveness, can even empathize with it. But plain destruction like this, delivering it upon innocents, no excuses.

I haven't looked into the ex-gf's comments yet, or the encouragement of the pilot to leave the cockpit (I will get around to it at some point)...
If it does turn out to be premeditated, damn that's pretty sick to take a full load of passengers out...there had to be a shot at doing it on a deadhead flight at some point..