So the Co-Pilot...

Drowned Out

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Drowned Out said:

This conversation with Thirty comes up every few weeks. It's mentioned frequently and by multiple posters (I can think of five off the top of my head). To his accusers, these fantasies about harsh justice, whether vigilante or by the state, are more disturbing than whatever spin he tries to put on an attempt at prevention thru understanding, to make his detractors out to be bad people for 'justifying' mass murder (talk about a ridiculous, arrogant, judgemental thing to say). And yes, that's the point here. Examining the environments and psychological states associated with people snapping and committing these acts, in order to identify those at risk for such breaks, and prevent them from snapping. And yes rr, this is the same as looking at cause and effect in foreign policy, race relations, and other volatile issues in our society. Amazing to me that people argue against that.

'A reactionary is a somnambulist walking backwards' - FDR

What are you suggesting here?

Are you saying that my presence on these boards has served its time? I'm a one trick pony and without much to offer other than grating on those that hold a differing point of view than mine?

Of course not...your contributions here are as valuable as anyone's. Well...ok...I admit there have been a few past and present posters who I feel bring the level of discourse down a notch or two, but I don't count you among them.

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

It's La-la-land to think we can sit on a rock band's website and solve the problem of violence with a heightened and enlightened attitude- not that I really have a problem with people thinking they can (they are hardly the problem and, despite what you have said, I don't try to make them out as 'bad').

Regardless of how some think we can look to the causal factors of each new incident that presents itself until we die and afterwards... it's more helpful, in my mind, to deplore the acts and express remorse for the fallen.

So is that what you think this place is about? Bitching about current events? No, we will not solve the world's problems on a PJ forum. Sounds apathetic; this attitude defeats the purpose of discussing politics at all, and could be said about any topic. This is about awareness and education and seeing different points of view. I don't see how everyone saying in unison 'fuck that worthless waste of skin shitbird' accomplishes any of those things. Considering causation and discussing it may point someone toward valuable information to be used in their own lives, or lead them down a path in which the topic becomes a passion, and could eventually effect positive change.
Even if none of this happens, at the very least it makes us think a little.
Expressing outrage, while cathartic to the individual, does very little for the whole.

rr165892

Drowned Out said:

This conversation with Thirty comes up every few weeks. It's mentioned frequently and by multiple posters (I can think of five off the top of my head). To his accusers, these fantasies about harsh justice, whether vigilante or by the state, are more disturbing than whatever spin he tries to put on an attempt at prevention thru understanding, to make his detractors out to be bad people for 'justifying' mass murder (talk about a ridiculous, arrogant, judgemental thing to say). And yes, that's the point here. Examining the environments and psychological states associated with people snapping and committing these acts, in order to identify those at risk for such breaks, and prevent them from snapping. And yes rr, this is the same as looking at cause and effect in foreign policy, race relations, and other volatile issues in our society. Amazing to me that people argue against that.

'A reactionary is a somnambulist walking backwards' - FDR

Now,now Drowned.Those other hot button issues are a bit more textured and layered.Not quit as cut and dry as this.Its premeditated Murder.Plain and simple.Cause is irrelevant at this point.
I understand why you ,Hugh and others want to be able to wrap these issues up nice and tight with a bow and put it in a labeled box.I get it.I respect it.

But in trying to explain the "why" I think some good old fashioned anger and outrage get shelved and pushed aside.That has an effect on the victims,who although want to know why,they also seek justice and retribution and closure.We as a society also need to see justice served.

In years following these events I think that's when you big brained Academic types can explain the why and give suggestions to help recognize the precursors to these actions and events.

scurtis

People want justice for the innocent, hence the outrage against the co-pilot.

Frankly, he had it all planned out. He encouraged the pilot to leave, he took steps to ensure he couldn't get back in, he set the autopilot for a controlled decent etc...

Like any mass murderer he was clearly deeply troubled and wanted to end his life and the lives of others.

You can't take human nature out with a policy or a procedure. He likely lied about his state of mind, or hid it for a long time. I don't know that you can ever have a perfect record when screening for mental illness with pilots or other people who have this level of control for other people's lives.

What they probably can change is the culture of trust around leaving someone at the controls by him or herself. Airlines can put policies in but that still doesn't stop a pilot from getting up to use the washroom and leaving someone alone, they will still implicitly trust the other pilot unless that culture is changed.

It's like a crash years and years ago where the pilot culture was like the military, you never questioned a senior pilot. In that instances a senior pilot was clearly making a mistake but no one said anything because of the culture of never questioning a senior pilot and he crashed the plane. I think it was an Air India crash.

Anyway, in the end, hopefully they can learn something.

rr165892

scurtis said:

People want justice for the innocent, hence the outrage against the co-pilot.

Frankly, he had it all planned out. He encouraged the pilot to leave, he took steps to ensure he couldn't get back in, he set the autopilot for a controlled decent etc...

Like any mass murderer he was clearly deeply troubled and wanted to end his life and the lives of others.

You can't take human nature out with a policy or a procedure. He likely lied about his state of mind, or hid it for a long time. I don't know that you can ever have a perfect record when screening for mental illness with pilots or other people who have this level of control for other people's lives.

What they probably can change is the culture of trust around leaving someone at the controls by him or herself. Airlines can put policies in but that still doesn't stop a pilot from getting up to use the washroom and leaving someone alone, they will still implicitly trust the other pilot unless that culture is changed.

It's like a crash years and years ago where the pilot culture was like the military, you never questioned a senior pilot. In that instances a senior pilot was clearly making a mistake but no one said anything because of the culture of never questioning a senior pilot and he crashed the plane. I think it was an Air India crash.

Anyway, in the end, hopefully they can learn something.

Well done post Scurt.

Drowned Out

rr165892 said:

Drowned Out said:

This conversation with Thirty comes up every few weeks. It's mentioned frequently and by multiple posters (I can think of five off the top of my head). To his accusers, these fantasies about harsh justice, whether vigilante or by the state, are more disturbing than whatever spin he tries to put on an attempt at prevention thru understanding, to make his detractors out to be bad people for 'justifying' mass murder (talk about a ridiculous, arrogant, judgemental thing to say). And yes, that's the point here. Examining the environments and psychological states associated with people snapping and committing these acts, in order to identify those at risk for such breaks, and prevent them from snapping. And yes rr, this is the same as looking at cause and effect in foreign policy, race relations, and other volatile issues in our society. Amazing to me that people argue against that.

'A reactionary is a somnambulist walking backwards' - FDR

Now,now Drowned.Those other hot button issues are a bit more textured and layered.Not quit as cut and dry as this.Its premeditated Murder.Plain and simple.Cause is irrelevant at this point.
I understand why you ,Hugh and others want to be able to wrap these issues up nice and tight with a bow and put it in a labeled box.I get it.I respect it.

But in trying to explain the "why" I think some good old fashioned anger and outrage get shelved and pushed aside.That has an effect on the victims,who although want to know why,they also seek justice and retribution and closure.We as a society also need to see justice served.

In years following these events I think that's when you big brained Academic types can explain the why and give suggestions to help recognize the precursors to these actions and events.

A few things:
1. You're the one who brought other topics into this in relation to causation.
2. If you think cause is irrelevant at this point, you're missing our point. There were signs that were missed with this pilot; discussing his life, his actions, his treatment or lack thereof, could identify ways to prevent something similar from happening in the future.
3. By looking into these things, we are not putting this in a neatly labelled box. By calling it 'murder. Plain and simple', you are the one doing that.
4. Anger should not be a part of serving justice. And just what justice are you going to get in this case? None. But I guess we can let you angry types determine the appropriate time to dig into prevention .
5. the facetious 'big brained academic types' comment....remember: I'm a dropout and I work in construction. still stuck on the word scholarly from a few months back, eh?

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Drowned Out said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Drowned Out said:

This conversation with Thirty comes up every few weeks. It's mentioned frequently and by multiple posters (I can think of five off the top of my head). To his accusers, these fantasies about harsh justice, whether vigilante or by the state, are more disturbing than whatever spin he tries to put on an attempt at prevention thru understanding, to make his detractors out to be bad people for 'justifying' mass murder (talk about a ridiculous, arrogant, judgemental thing to say). And yes, that's the point here. Examining the environments and psychological states associated with people snapping and committing these acts, in order to identify those at risk for such breaks, and prevent them from snapping. And yes rr, this is the same as looking at cause and effect in foreign policy, race relations, and other volatile issues in our society. Amazing to me that people argue against that.

'A reactionary is a somnambulist walking backwards' - FDR

What are you suggesting here?

Are you saying that my presence on these boards has served its time? I'm a one trick pony and without much to offer other than grating on those that hold a differing point of view than mine?

Of course not...your contributions here are as valuable as anyone's. Well...ok...I admit there have been a few past and present posters who I feel bring the level of discourse down a notch or two, but I don't count you among them.

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

It's La-la-land to think we can sit on a rock band's website and solve the problem of violence with a heightened and enlightened attitude- not that I really have a problem with people thinking they can (they are hardly the problem and, despite what you have said, I don't try to make them out as 'bad').

Regardless of how some think we can look to the causal factors of each new incident that presents itself until we die and afterwards... it's more helpful, in my mind, to deplore the acts and express remorse for the fallen.

So is that what you think this place is about? Bitching about current events? No, we will not solve the world's problems on a PJ forum. Sounds apathetic; this attitude defeats the purpose of discussing politics at all, and could be said about any topic. This is about awareness and education and seeing different points of view. I don't see how everyone saying in unison 'fuck that worthless waste of skin shitbird' accomplishes any of those things. Considering causation and discussing it may point someone toward valuable information to be used in their own lives, or lead them down a path in which the topic becomes a passion, and could eventually effect positive change.
Even if none of this happens, at the very least it makes us think a little.
Expressing outrage, while cathartic to the individual, does very little for the whole.

A few things:

1. Can you succinctly tell me what the topic of debate is within this thread?

You suggest that this forum is a place for this and I agree because there are several threads which have offered excellent discourse and discussion, but I'm sorry to say... this thread isn't one.

2. You have used your imagination to use an example of spoken language to illustrate what you are getting at. Allow me to do the same. I don't see how some saying "Now now people. This man was a human being and he had his reasons for doing what he did" generates the awareness and education and seeing different points of view that you feel is so significant.

It doesn't because I think these types of responses are inflammatory and on some level... they seem to demonstrate a level of insensitivity- whether by design or not.

3. As to different points of view... what possible different point of view or fresh perspective might one possess for this tragedy?

The differing point of view that is being discussed right now is how superior some feel they are speaking to the ones expressing extreme outrage and sorrow over the event. I'm not saying the ones expressing their emotions on the subject such feel worse about the incident than ones who don't... what I am saying is that becoming flippant and acting morally superior by flaunting a 'deepened sense of something bigger that some are incapable of seeing' is inflammatory as well.

4. You came at me from left field. When I asked what you meant by your attack- you know... the one where you suggested I get into it with 5 or so people every 2-3 weeks like some annoying gnat- can you be a little more clear on what it is you are trying to say?

Your veiled attempt at making me look the buffoon is a chickenshit way of doing things- especially since you ran from your words when I asked for clarification. If you have an issue with me... either come out and say it or pm me and we can discuss your issue.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Holy shit.

Look at our last two posts, Drowned.

PJfanwillneverleave1

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/11504444/Co-pilot-Andreas-Lubitz-was-in-therapy-for-suicidal-tendencies.html

So, now what direction will this thread go?

hedonist

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Holy shit.

Look at our last two posts, Drowned.

Caught that as well, Thirty. No wonder I like both of you. Perhaps of different minds, but similar in ways as well.

rr165892

Drowned Out said:

rr165892 said:

Drowned Out said:

This conversation with Thirty comes up every few weeks. It's mentioned frequently and by multiple posters (I can think of five off the top of my head). To his accusers, these fantasies about harsh justice, whether vigilante or by the state, are more disturbing than whatever spin he tries to put on an attempt at prevention thru understanding, to make his detractors out to be bad people for 'justifying' mass murder (talk about a ridiculous, arrogant, judgemental thing to say). And yes, that's the point here. Examining the environments and psychological states associated with people snapping and committing these acts, in order to identify those at risk for such breaks, and prevent them from snapping. And yes rr, this is the same as looking at cause and effect in foreign policy, race relations, and other volatile issues in our society. Amazing to me that people argue against that.

'A reactionary is a somnambulist walking backwards' - FDR

Now,now Drowned.Those other hot button issues are a bit more textured and layered.Not quit as cut and dry as this.Its premeditated Murder.Plain and simple.Cause is irrelevant at this point.
I understand why you ,Hugh and others want to be able to wrap these issues up nice and tight with a bow and put it in a labeled box.I get it.I respect it.

But in trying to explain the "why" I think some good old fashioned anger and outrage get shelved and pushed aside.That has an effect on the victims,who although want to know why,they also seek justice and retribution and closure.We as a society also need to see justice served.

In years following these events I think that's when you big brained Academic types can explain the why and give suggestions to help recognize the precursors to these actions and events.

A few things:
1. You're the one who brought other topics into this in relation to causation.
2. If you think cause is irrelevant at this point, you're missing our point. There were signs that were missed with this pilot; discussing his life, his actions, his treatment or lack thereof, could identify ways to prevent something similar from happening in the future.
3. By looking into these things, we are not putting this in a neatly labelled box. By calling it 'murder. Plain and simple', you are the one doing that.
4. Anger should not be a part of serving justice. And just what justice are you going to get in this case? None. But I guess we can let you angry types determine the appropriate time to dig into prevention .
5. the facetious 'big brained academic types' comment....remember: I'm a dropout and I work in construction. still stuck on the word scholarly from a few months back, eh?

Wasn't it "Scholarly papers" ?

rgambs

Just finished watching American History X and the last few lines really resonated with this argument.
"So I guess this is where I tell you what I learned - my conclusion, right? Well, my conclusion is: Hate is baggage. Life's too short to be pissed off all the time. It's just not worth it."

rgambs

I know what it is like to be a victim, to be the family of a victim... Hate, anger, the desire for revenge under the guise of "justice"... Those feelings are the easy way out. Moving on is hard, but it's the only path to happiness.

hedonist

gambs, I'm sorry for what you and yours have been through, but aren't those hotter emotions you mentioned also part of the path?

They were for me - not necessarily acting on them, but to experience and then release them, in so many means available? They're footsteps to feeling...clean. Like medicine, almost.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

rgambs said:

Just finished watching American History X and the last few lines really resonated with this argument.
"So I guess this is where I tell you what I learned - my conclusion, right? Well, my conclusion is: Hate is baggage. Life's too short to be pissed off all the time. It's just not worth it."

There's definitely something to be said for this.

But I think there is a fine line between passion and hate. I think it's too easy to dismiss someone as having hatred within them when they speak passionately about subjects. Everything can't be vanilla.

By the way, I remember your past you shared with us now that you've reminded us. Good for you for holding the mindset you do.

As well... great movie.

rgambs

hedonist said:

gambs, I'm sorry for what you and yours have been through, but aren't those hotter emotions you mentioned also part of the path?

They were for me - not necessarily acting on them, but to experience and then release them, in so many means available? They're footsteps to feeling...clean. Like medicine, almost.

They are certainly a part of the path, but the sooner put away, the better.
I don't have anything to say about the families and those touched by this heinous tragedy, except that I hope they find peace in whatever way they can.
Where I open my mouth is here, half a world away, where the anger and hatred serve no purpose, and give no advancement down that path to peace.
It reminds me of the zealots who are ridiculously passionate about abortion... I see them literally foaming at the mouth and I wonder how they can care so much about something which has ZERO effect on their own life. I am left with the conclusion that they are projecting rage from some other problem they have into an external issue, for whatever reason. I see some resemblance between that and issues of "justice".

rgambs

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

rgambs said:

Just finished watching American History X and the last few lines really resonated with this argument.
"So I guess this is where I tell you what I learned - my conclusion, right? Well, my conclusion is: Hate is baggage. Life's too short to be pissed off all the time. It's just not worth it."

There's definitely something to be said for this.

But I think there is a fine line between passion and hate. I think it's too easy to dismiss someone as having hatred within them when they speak passionately about subjects. Everything can't be vanilla.

By the way, I remember your past you shared with us now that you've reminded us. Good for you for holding the mindset you do.

As well... great movie.

You have a point here.
I definitely agree that passion is important, a fire in the belly is beyond value.

kce8

I think it´s like a psychologist says the other day: `Anger might be the only and best way for most of the victim families to get through this tragedy because there is no natural way to handle the mourning/grieving.´

Some will not find ease of mind because there is no sense in the death of the victims and maybe there will be no mortal remains for all of them to take home to bury. That´s the worst case for loving families.
So if you can´t find sense in what happened and you can´t find something to forgive it´s better to handle it with anger as to fall in a hole. Then you will not getting through it, never. You might think you did got through it till you find out (maybe many years later) that you did not!
Believe me...you need a reason like human or technical error or anger/passion to overcome this drama and find peace. But how can you forgive someone who (might) did murder your loved ones on purpose with criminal intent ?
I just can hope all who are involved can find their own way soon. But it´s sad... I disbelieve that.
Anger usually isn´t a very good companion...this is an exemption.
Then there are the parents of the pilot...don´t like to imagine how they will get through this...

rr165892

rgambs said:

Just finished watching American History X and the last few lines really resonated with this argument.
"So I guess this is where I tell you what I learned - my conclusion, right? Well, my conclusion is: Hate is baggage. Life's too short to be pissed off all the time. It's just not worth it."

True words

callen

rgambs said:

I believe in empathy (not sympathy) for everyone, empathy is one of the truly distinctive things about humans.

Empathy

Believe empathy is key to human harmony. World harmony. Plant and animal harmony.

Empathy is the enemy of the machine. Hard to motivate the masses……… if they have empathy. Hard to have workers increasing efficiency 150% and laying off your coworkers when you have Empathy.

Empathy is the enemy of wars, how can one justify the killing of women and children…..for economic security, FOR money if one has empathy.

Empathy takes away human validation Rather than understanding the plight of your fellow man…one without empathy takes comfort if feeling special, smarter, better equipped. My favorite on this board……. “Being a white male gives me no advantages, I worked hard. I had good morals. Those crack babies have same opportunity as I, they are just ……………………..lazy. NOT like I.”

then this came to mind….

“ I know now to eat….I chose the salmon filet special at lunch with the boys today during our monthly team meeting….…I didn’t get the cheeseburger…like those dumb poor people that went to McDonalds and are now fat”. Empathy “Head of lettuce is 99 Cents why don’t they eat that…its cheap vegetable” Empathy.

Empathy, putting yourself in the shoes of another…..of a teenage suicide bomber…who’s life sucks so bad…that has had idiotic beliefs drilled in their heads, they feel so desperate that they strap bombs to their bodies and are willing to exterminate themselves, obliterate themselves….not knowing how much it will indeed hurt….no future of family, kids, grandkids…all that never a thought….…………..and we call them cowards!! HOW??? If you have a smallest sliver of empathy you would realize this is the farthest thing from being a coward. Diving a plane into a mountain being a coward?!?!?! Really? This dude was sick….he flew headfirst into a mountain…..I don’t have the balls to do this….I could never commit suicide……I am a coward, but I have empathy.

Empathy understanding depression, understanding sexual drive, understanding other’s needs, wants, insecurities…….empathy. You against gays? Rub you the wrong way?. You ever think how it must suck to not be attracted to opposite sex, going against family, society..and GOD!!!!!! Fuck that must suck big time…….I can barely just imagine…just barely or maybe not at all….. Empathy

Empathy, “those damn wetbacks coming over here taking our jobs”. They risk all they have, culture, family, security, risk of life and limb, risk of imprisonment…for $5.00 an hour….empathy…..yet skip the fact that Americans hire them….they are but poor pawns…in the game of hate and votes. Empathy.

Challenge yourselves….it’s not the evil doers, its humans just like you, that have the same wants and wishes for themselves and families as you….they ARE you.

Peace.

hedonist

Good post, callen.

I have to say, though - some of these people are NOT me (I'm talking about those who take deliberate actions to harm or kill others).