What the hell happened in Wisconsin?

hedonist said:

PJ_Soul said:

rr165892 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

Sometimes it's justified when cops shoot and kill people. But a lot of the time it seems like the cops are killing people just to avoid getting a scratch or a bruise or a kick to the shin rather than avoiding serious injury or death. I don't think that seems right given the nature of their jobs. What happened to cops physically restraining unarmed people instead of shooting them dead, especially when we're talking about mentally ill people? Lately I feel like some cops would shoot someone to avoid getting hang nail.

that's a tad much, don'tcha think?

Yeah,PJ I think you may be off base on this one.

I don't understand how you folks didn't pick up on the fact that I wasn't being literal. I thought the hang nail comment would make that more than obvious.
I think you get my point though? Of course I don't mean all cops. That's why I said "some" cops. And yeah, it happens pretty often! Not always shooting them, but using tasers and stuff - unjustified excessive force - and tasers actually kill more people in Canada than cop's guns do, absolutely. Happens all the time. The cops even taser people to avoid running more than 6 feet, seriously. Hell, the cops taser little kids who are throwing tantrums sometimes!

PJ, there's an irony in this - where many have decried using lethal force vs. other methods such as tasers or rubber bullets. It's sort of like damned if you (they) do or don't.

Tasering is better than shooting. Holding someone down on the ground is better than tasering. The point is that they should be using the least harmful method that reasonably possible, whatever the situation is. I don't feel like that is happening in a lot of cases.
Obviously, when discussing this issue, NONE of us are talking about all or the majority of instances or cops. But we're talking about what seems like a systemic problem within a very large system.

PJ_Soul said:

rr165892 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

Sometimes it's justified when cops shoot and kill people. But a lot of the time it seems like the cops are killing people just to avoid getting a scratch or a bruise or a kick to the shin rather than avoiding serious injury or death. I don't think that seems right given the nature of their jobs. What happened to cops physically restraining unarmed people instead of shooting them dead, especially when we're talking about mentally ill people? Lately I feel like some cops would shoot someone to avoid getting hang nail.

that's a tad much, don'tcha think?

Yeah,PJ I think you may be off base on this one.

I don't understand how you folks didn't pick up on the fact that I wasn't being literal. I thought the hang nail comment would make that more than obvious.
I think you get my point though? Of course I don't mean all cops. That's why I said "some" cops. And yeah, it happens pretty often! Not always shooting them, but using tasers and stuff - unjustified excessive force - and tasers actually kill more people in Canada than cop's guns do, absolutely. Happens all the time. The cops even taser people to avoid running more than 6 feet, seriously. Hell, the cops taser little kids who are throwing tantrums sometimes!

Not all cops, minor few but agree and great post.

Let's say that a bunch of white college kids are drunk & harassing people as they walk around a city. Someone calls the cops because drunk college kids are causing a problem. Cops show up & one white college kid mouths off at cop because he's drunk & his self entitlement is in overdrive. Starts yelling about his constitutional rights & starts to walk towards officer. Does the cop shoot him because he fears the kid will take his gun or assault him? He has no idea if the kid is armed. Does the cop shoot the kid; should he?
Now, let's say a black kid is harassing people as he walks around his neighborhood, which is several miles away from where the college kids are getting drunk. He runs into his house when he knows the cops are coming.. He leaves in a body bag cause cop said he was in fear of his life AND HE REACHED FOR HIS GUN. No one saw this, but the police officer says that's what happened. (And really, we all know how these kids are, right?
The black kid may or may not be an angel, just as the drunk white college kid may or may not be angels. Not many kids that age are angels. Do they deserve to die?
The white college kids do not have an ingrained fear of being harassed or killed by police. They have never been stopped on the road just because they look suspicious to a particular police officer. They can't even imagine anything worse than being possibly taken down to the station & having to explain their behavior to their parents. The black kid has grown up knowing that police officers shoot as a first resort instead of last resort. He knows people, or has personally experienced, being profiled. He has every expectation that the police officer is going to hurt or kill him. He is unarmed. But the cop has a gun, pepper spray, taser, club AND training on how to de-escalate dangerous situations. He is trained to use only the appropriate amount of force, if any, to get the situation under control. Yet, he uses the most lethal weapon in the most lethal way within minutes.
Most cops are good people who want to protect & serve. Some cops are trigger happy yahoo's with pre conceived notions about certain types of people. Some people are extremely dangerous, gun carrying lunatics, most are not.
No one should be shot dead for the crime of acting like a teen age asshole. No one.

PJ_Soul said:

Just google cops tasering children. A lot of results.

I'm all for the tasering of children.
Keeps them quiet and off my lawn.

njnancy said:

Let's say that a bunch of white college kids are drunk & harassing people as they walk around a city. Someone calls the cops because drunk college kids are causing a problem. Cops show up & one white college kid mouths off at cop because he's drunk & his self entitlement is in overdrive. Starts yelling about his constitutional rights & starts to walk towards officer. Does the cop shoot him because he fears the kid will take his gun or assault him? He has no idea if the kid is armed. Does the cop shoot the kid; should he?
Now, let's say a black kid is harassing people as he walks around his neighborhood, which is several miles away from where the college kids are getting drunk. He runs into his house when he knows the cops are coming.. He leaves in a body bag cause cop said he was in fear of his life AND HE REACHED FOR HIS GUN. No one saw this, but the police officer says that's what happened. (And really, we all know how these kids are, right?
The black kid may or may not be an angel, just as the drunk white college kid may or may not be angels. Not many kids that age are angels. Do they deserve to die?
The white college kids do not have an ingrained fear of being harassed or killed by police. They have never been stopped on the road just because they look suspicious to a particular police officer. They can't even imagine anything worse than being possibly taken down to the station & having to explain their behavior to their parents. The black kid has grown up knowing that police officers shoot as a first resort instead of last resort. He knows people, or has personally experienced, being profiled. He has every expectation that the police officer is going to hurt or kill him. He is unarmed. But the cop has a gun, pepper spray, taser, club AND training on how to de-escalate dangerous situations. He is trained to use only the appropriate amount of force, if any, to get the situation under control. Yet, he uses the most lethal weapon in the most lethal way within minutes.
Most cops are good people who want to protect & serve. Some cops are trigger happy yahoo's with pre conceived notions about certain types of people. Some people are extremely dangerous, gun carrying lunatics, most are not.
No one should be shot dead for the crime of acting like a teen age asshole. No one.

in both examples, the cop should only use lethal force if he feels like he is in mortal danger or if he feels those around him might be. you reach for a cop's gun? you risk getting killed. no sympathy here.

and if you had presented the exact same scenario for both black and white victims, yes, i would agree that some cops would shoot the black kid a bit earlier than the white kid. it's human nature to form prejudices based on experience. it's unfortunate that it happens, but it does. lesson: listen to the cops. it's really just that simple.

and about your "growing up white kids don't know harassment" is just not true. me and my friends (white middle class) got stopped COUNTLESS times for no reason other than it was 6 teenage metalheads who were cruising around. they would search our car, yank us out of the car and search us. all the time. we didn't know our rights at the time. they had zero reason to stop us, let alone search us. I wanted to be a cop as a kid, as many kids do. after my teen years, I changed my mind. I didn't want to be a dick for a career. And as much as I fucking hated what they did, I never once lipped off or did anything that might cause an issue with those cops.

I now realize that was just a small fraction of cops, and most are good.

Last-12-Exit said:

Drunk or not, listen to fucking cops, you probably won't leave in a body bag. White or black.

I agree with that! While there are cops who are just fucked up, I never understood the need for people to act crazy around them, lol.

HughFreakingDillon said:

njnancy said:

Let's say that a bunch of white college kids are drunk & harassing people as they walk around a city. Someone calls the cops because drunk college kids are causing a problem. Cops show up & one white college kid mouths off at cop because he's drunk & his self entitlement is in overdrive. Starts yelling about his constitutional rights & starts to walk towards officer. Does the cop shoot him because he fears the kid will take his gun or assault him? He has no idea if the kid is armed. Does the cop shoot the kid; should he?
Now, let's say a black kid is harassing people as he walks around his neighborhood, which is several miles away from where the college kids are getting drunk. He runs into his house when he knows the cops are coming.. He leaves in a body bag cause cop said he was in fear of his life AND HE REACHED FOR HIS GUN. No one saw this, but the police officer says that's what happened. (And really, we all know how these kids are, right?
The black kid may or may not be an angel, just as the drunk white college kid may or may not be angels. Not many kids that age are angels. Do they deserve to die?
The white college kids do not have an ingrained fear of being harassed or killed by police. They have never been stopped on the road just because they look suspicious to a particular police officer. They can't even imagine anything worse than being possibly taken down to the station & having to explain their behavior to their parents. The black kid has grown up knowing that police officers shoot as a first resort instead of last resort. He knows people, or has personally experienced, being profiled. He has every expectation that the police officer is going to hurt or kill him. He is unarmed. But the cop has a gun, pepper spray, taser, club AND training on how to de-escalate dangerous situations. He is trained to use only the appropriate amount of force, if any, to get the situation under control. Yet, he uses the most lethal weapon in the most lethal way within minutes.
Most cops are good people who want to protect & serve. Some cops are trigger happy yahoo's with pre conceived notions about certain types of people. Some people are extremely dangerous, gun carrying lunatics, most are not.
No one should be shot dead for the crime of acting like a teen age asshole. No one.

in both examples, the cop should only use lethal force if he feels like he is in mortal danger or if he feels those around him might be. you reach for a cop's gun? you risk getting killed. no sympathy here.

and if you had presented the exact same scenario for both black and white victims, yes, i would agree that some cops would shoot the black kid a bit earlier than the white kid. it's human nature to form prejudices based on experience. it's unfortunate that it happens, but it does. lesson: listen to the cops. it's really just that simple.

and about your "growing up white kids don't know harassment" is just not true. me and my friends (white middle class) got stopped COUNTLESS times for no reason other than it was 6 teenage metalheads who were cruising around. they would search our car, yank us out of the car and search us. all the time. we didn't know our rights at the time. they had zero reason to stop us, let alone search us. I wanted to be a cop as a kid, as many kids do. after my teen years, I changed my mind. I didn't want to be a dick for a career. And as much as I fucking hated what they did, I never once lipped off or did anything that might cause an issue with those cops.

I now realize that was just a small fraction of cops, and most are good.

A buddy if mine used to play NCAA football- he always has been huge and shredded. He's also got a bit of a mean streak in him.

Little guys used to antagonize him- provoking him thinking he wouldn't do anything because he was bigger. There were times when he never afforded such a courtesy and the small guy got smacked.

These pests initiated the interaction, wanted to come across as looking competent and cool (why else antagonize a gorilla that can clearly smash you?) and then became indignant and surprised when the big guy wasn't patient with their obnoxious behavior.

This reminds me of the disrespect some have for cops: act like an ass expecting nice treatment. Guess what... you're making a bold and dangerous presumption. If you mess with the bull... sometimes you get the horn.

As you have said: don't mess with the bull. Easy as that.

callen said:

PJ_Soul said:

Last-12-Exit said:

Drunk or not, listen to fucking cops, you probably won't leave in a body bag. White or black.

I agree with that! While there are cops who are just fucked up, I never understood the need for people to act crazy around them, lol.

Being drunk and stupid should not be a death sentence.

Of course not. I didn't say that to mean that cops overreacting is justified. It was just an aside.

HughFreakingDillon said:

njnancy said:

Let's say that a bunch of white college kids are drunk & harassing people as they walk around a city. Someone calls the cops because drunk college kids are causing a problem. Cops show up & one white college kid mouths off at cop because he's drunk & his self entitlement is in overdrive. Starts yelling about his constitutional rights & starts to walk towards officer. Does the cop shoot him because he fears the kid will take his gun or assault him? He has no idea if the kid is armed. Does the cop shoot the kid; should he?
Now, let's say a black kid is harassing people as he walks around his neighborhood, which is several miles away from where the college kids are getting drunk. He runs into his house when he knows the cops are coming.. He leaves in a body bag cause cop said he was in fear of his life AND HE REACHED FOR HIS GUN. No one saw this, but the police officer says that's what happened. (And really, we all know how these kids are, right?
The black kid may or may not be an angel, just as the drunk white college kid may or may not be angels. Not many kids that age are angels. Do they deserve to die?
The white college kids do not have an ingrained fear of being harassed or killed by police. They have never been stopped on the road just because they look suspicious to a particular police officer. They can't even imagine anything worse than being possibly taken down to the station & having to explain their behavior to their parents. The black kid has grown up knowing that police officers shoot as a first resort instead of last resort. He knows people, or has personally experienced, being profiled. He has every expectation that the police officer is going to hurt or kill him. He is unarmed. But the cop has a gun, pepper spray, taser, club AND training on how to de-escalate dangerous situations. He is trained to use only the appropriate amount of force, if any, to get the situation under control. Yet, he uses the most lethal weapon in the most lethal way within minutes.
Most cops are good people who want to protect & serve. Some cops are trigger happy yahoo's with pre conceived notions about certain types of people. Some people are extremely dangerous, gun carrying lunatics, most are not.
No one should be shot dead for the crime of acting like a teen age asshole. No one.

in both examples, the cop should only use lethal force if he feels like he is in mortal danger or if he feels those around him might be. you reach for a cop's gun? you risk getting killed. no sympathy here.

and if you had presented the exact same scenario for both black and white victims, yes, i would agree that some cops would shoot the black kid a bit earlier than the white kid. it's human nature to form prejudices based on experience. it's unfortunate that it happens, but it does. lesson: listen to the cops. it's really just that simple.

and about your "growing up white kids don't know harassment" is just not true. me and my friends (white middle class) got stopped COUNTLESS times for no reason other than it was 6 teenage metalheads who were cruising around. they would search our car, yank us out of the car and search us. all the time. we didn't know our rights at the time. they had zero reason to stop us, let alone search us. I wanted to be a cop as a kid, as many kids do. after my teen years, I changed my mind. I didn't want to be a dick for a career. And as much as I fucking hated what they did, I never once lipped off or did anything that might cause an issue with those cops.

I now realize that was just a small fraction of cops, and most are good.

Hugh, with all due respect your brief encounters of being profiled doesn't compare to lifelong sentence. And think you and your buddies could cut your hair. Drive better car and norms get extra special treatment.

I know I get VIP treatment compared to my minority neighbors.