I'm confused. So these people were not mentally ill? Even though the professionals say they are. Or not mentally ill enough for some here? Where is the line? I'm at a loss.
You said earlier that most of these people are mentally ill. I assumed you were talking of all people that fall victim to a police gun after a struggle.
Of course they don't leave guns in car when going to a call. Can't do that in states due to love of guns.
But also say there has to be a better way than to give mentally unstable person access to the gun.
And "he reached for my gun" seems to be a common theme.
Resisting arrest and fighting with police is a common theme too.
How is the cop supposed to be aware of medical condition of suspect? Acting strangely can be attributed to several things... not to mention drugs that can make a person highly unpredictable and volatile.
Of course they don't leave guns in car when going to a call. Can't do that in states due to love of guns.
But also say there has to be a better way than to give mentally unstable person access to the gun.
And "he reached for my gun" seems to be a common theme.
Due to love of guns? Really, that's the reason?
How about due to protection of life, whether that of an innocent or the big bad cop?
What about assholes drunk or wasted out of their mind who are aggressive and...(wait for it)...reaching for the gun? Or armed themselves? We just had someone out here (mentioned in another thread) who after a fucked up pursuit came out gun a'blazing. Could've been killed by return fire but the police, after a long standoff, handled it peacefully. No dead asshole.
That this is so black and white to some, just beyond me.
Yes due to the love of guns and the number, US cops are rightfully concerned and some folks such as the guy in gas station reaching for his wallet are shot.
In many European countries cops don't carry guns and cop shootings like in US don't happen.
The black and white seems to reside in shootings and killings and blank approval to cops following current procedures.
Of course they don't leave guns in car when going to a call. Can't do that in states due to love of guns.
But also say there has to be a better way than to give mentally unstable person access to the gun.
And "he reached for my gun" seems to be a common theme.
Resisting arrest and fighting with police is a common theme too.
How is the cop supposed to be aware of medical condition of suspect? Acting strangely can be attributed to several things... not to mention drugs that can make a person highly unpredictable and volatile.
Resisting arrest a death sentence ? Fighting cop death sentence ? Who determines resistance? The cop?
Offer solutions. Five cops and no Visable weapon should not equal death. One idiot with flat blade screwdriver against. 5. Cops should not equal death.
Of course they don't leave guns in car when going to a call. Can't do that in states due to love of guns.
But also say there has to be a better way than to give mentally unstable person access to the gun.
And "he reached for my gun" seems to be a common theme.
Due to love of guns? Really, that's the reason?
How about due to protection of life, whether that of an innocent or the big bad cop?
What about assholes drunk or wasted out of their mind who are aggressive and...(wait for it)...reaching for the gun? Or armed themselves? We just had someone out here (mentioned in another thread) who after a fucked up pursuit came out gun a'blazing. Could've been killed by return fire but the police, after a long standoff, handled it peacefully. No dead asshole.
That this is so black and white to some, just beyond me.
Yes due to the love of guns and the number, US cops are rightfully concerned and some folks such as the guy in gas station reaching for his wallet are shot.
In many European countries cops don't carry guns and cop shootings like in US don't happen.
The black and white seems to reside in shootings and killings and blank approval to cops following current procedures.
so American cops should carry billy clubs to a gun fight? seriously? it was the cop's fault for bringing the gun to the fight?
yes, we all know that many euro cops don't carry guns. yes, the gun culture in america is different than anywhere else. that's not the fault of the police. they don't "love guns". they NEED GUNS. I hate guns, personally. But I can't for the life of me picture a world in north america where cops don't carry guns. it would be a cake walk for criminals.
I'll ask again: what would YOU have the cops do instead of carrying guns? don't make this into a culture war. we know american gun culture is fucked up. but that doesn't change what cops need to do in times of danger.
Of course they don't leave guns in car when going to a call. Can't do that in states due to love of guns.
But also say there has to be a better way than to give mentally unstable person access to the gun.
And "he reached for my gun" seems to be a common theme.
Resisting arrest and fighting with police is a common theme too.
How is the cop supposed to be aware of medical condition of suspect? Acting strangely can be attributed to several things... not to mention drugs that can make a person highly unpredictable and volatile.
Resisting arrest a death sentence ? Fighting cop death sentence ? Who determines resistance? The cop?
Offer solutions. Five cops and no Visable weapon should not equal death. One idiot with flat blade screwdriver against. 5. Cops should not equal death.
You are the one critical of current practices.
How about you offer solutions?
"My brain's a good brain!"
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,732
I'll throw in my two cents. Unless you're in favor of needless deaths and ongoing violence, the culture needs to change. Callen pointed out that in some European cultures cops don't even carry guns. Why? Because they are not a culture of violence and because they have less social inequity. We promote violence through our a-musement (interesting word when you break it down), and so-called entertainments. That's half the picture. The other half is the inequity in the U.S. The rich get richer poor get poorer. The result of that is and always will be, more violence. Change the culture, change the social structure, follow the lead of places where those things are working and there will be less violence. But does America really want less violence. Look at our history. Probably not.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Of course they don't leave guns in car when going to a call. Can't do that in states due to love of guns.
But also say there has to be a better way than to give mentally unstable person access to the gun.
And "he reached for my gun" seems to be a common theme.
Resisting arrest and fighting with police is a common theme too.
How is the cop supposed to be aware of medical condition of suspect? Acting strangely can be attributed to several things... not to mention drugs that can make a person highly unpredictable and volatile.
Thanks, Thirty. Was going to ask that myself. Diagnosing mental health issues can be tricky. Even for trained professionals in the mental health field. And they don't always agree, since it can be a judgement call based on interviews, and observations over a period of time. Hell, even in trials each side calls their mental health professional expert witnesses who often contradict one another. But let's ignore all of that and demand that cops make split-second mental health evaluation and diagnosis while in the heat of the moment. And maybe they can do a split-second toxicology screening as well just to make sure there's no chemical imbalance before they apply force. It seems like regardless of the immediate threat, cops are going to get shit on here for after-the-fact diagnosis that couldn't possibly be known to cops in the heat of the moment.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
Of course they don't leave guns in car when going to a call. Can't do that in states due to love of guns.
But also say there has to be a better way than to give mentally unstable person access to the gun.
And "he reached for my gun" seems to be a common theme.
Resisting arrest and fighting with police is a common theme too.
How is the cop supposed to be aware of medical condition of suspect? Acting strangely can be attributed to several things... not to mention drugs that can make a person highly unpredictable and volatile.
Resisting arrest a death sentence ? Fighting cop death sentence ? Who determines resistance? The cop?
Offer solutions. Five cops and no Visable weapon should not equal death. One idiot with flat blade screwdriver against. 5. Cops should not equal death.
You are the one critical of current practices.
How about you offer solutions?
Better pay
Higher admittance standards
Better de-escalation training
Tougher penalties (or simply having penalties) for unnecessary use of force
Higher physical fitness standards
Extensive, ongoing PT and hand to hand combat training
I'll throw in my two cents. Unless you're in favor of needless deaths and ongoing violence, the culture needs to change. Callen pointed out that in some European cultures cops don't even carry guns. Why? Because they are not a culture of violence and because they have less social inequity. We promote violence through our a-musement (interesting word when you break it down), and so-called entertainments. That's half the picture. The other half is the inequity in the U.S. The rich get richer poor get poorer. The result of that is and always will be, more violence. Change the culture, change the social structure, follow the lead of places where those things are working and there will be less violence. But does America really want less violence. Look at our history. Probably not.
I personally don't think that choice of entertainment is part of the problem. Canadians and Europeans watch the same movies and play the same video games as Americans do.
I'm being completely serious when I say this: the only thing that will change American gun culture is an apocalypse. Seriously. I truly believe it is irreversable at this point. You try, you will get a revolution. A fucking violent one at that.
Of course they don't leave guns in car when going to a call. Can't do that in states due to love of guns.
But also say there has to be a better way than to give mentally unstable person access to the gun.
And "he reached for my gun" seems to be a common theme.
Resisting arrest and fighting with police is a common theme too.
How is the cop supposed to be aware of medical condition of suspect? Acting strangely can be attributed to several things... not to mention drugs that can make a person highly unpredictable and volatile.
Resisting arrest a death sentence ? Fighting cop death sentence ? Who determines resistance? The cop?
Offer solutions. Five cops and no Visable weapon should not equal death. One idiot with flat blade screwdriver against. 5. Cops should not equal death.
You are the one critical of current practices.
How about you offer solutions?
Better pay
Higher admittance standards
Better de-escalation training
Tougher penalties (or simply having penalties) for unnecessary use of force
Higher physical fitness standards
Extensive, ongoing PT and hand to hand combat training
Tasers on all belts and flak on all officers
Holsters which prohibit gun pulls from the front
Bodycams
Good. Get it done.
In the meantime, we have human beings like you and I doing a really tough job. How about until we have implemented these changes, we afford them a level of respect and understanding when they are challenged in a potentially life and death situation.
Of course, when it is ascertained that one of these professionals has performed negligently (Rice or Thomas cases for examples), we should administer appropriate consequences.
Of course they don't leave guns in car when going to a call. Can't do that in states due to love of guns.
But also say there has to be a better way than to give mentally unstable person access to the gun.
And "he reached for my gun" seems to be a common theme.
Resisting arrest and fighting with police is a common theme too.
How is the cop supposed to be aware of medical condition of suspect? Acting strangely can be attributed to several things... not to mention drugs that can make a person highly unpredictable and volatile.
Resisting arrest a death sentence ? Fighting cop death sentence ? Who determines resistance? The cop?
Offer solutions. Five cops and no Visable weapon should not equal death. One idiot with flat blade screwdriver against. 5. Cops should not equal death.
You are the one critical of current practices.
How about you offer solutions?
Better pay
Higher admittance standards
Better de-escalation training
Tougher penalties (or simply having penalties) for unnecessary use of force
Higher physical fitness standards
Extensive, ongoing PT and hand to hand combat training
Tasers on all belts and flak on all officers
Holsters which prohibit gun pulls from the front
Bodycams
agreed on all counts. but where is all this money going to come from? in Canada, cops are paid hansomly. by and large, the right people are recruited. not sure why it's so different to the south.
do such holsters exist, by the way? and don't all cops pull forward when drawing their gun? I would imagine it would be incredibly awkward to pull backwards when it's on your hip.
I'll throw in my two cents. Unless you're in favor of needless deaths and ongoing violence, the culture needs to change. Callen pointed out that in some European cultures cops don't even carry guns. Why? Because they are not a culture of violence and because they have less social inequity. We promote violence through our a-musement (interesting word when you break it down), and so-called entertainments. That's half the picture. The other half is the inequity in the U.S. The rich get richer poor get poorer. The result of that is and always will be, more violence. Change the culture, change the social structure, follow the lead of places where those things are working and there will be less violence. But does America really want less violence. Look at our history. Probably not.
I personally don't think that choice of entertainment is part of the problem. Canadians and Europeans watch the same movies and play the same video games as Americans do.
I'm being completely serious when I say this: the only thing that will change American gun culture is an apocalypse. Seriously. I truly believe it is irreversable at this point. You try, you will get a revolution. A fucking violent one at that.
Yup. You're a tad bit fooked to put it bluntly.
Small incremental changes are your only hope to achieve change over the long haul. There is no immediate band aid cure for what ails you at the moment.
"My brain's a good brain!"
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,732
I'll throw in my two cents. Unless you're in favor of needless deaths and ongoing violence, the culture needs to change. Callen pointed out that in some European cultures cops don't even carry guns. Why? Because they are not a culture of violence and because they have less social inequity. We promote violence through our a-musement (interesting word when you break it down), and so-called entertainments. That's half the picture. The other half is the inequity in the U.S. The rich get richer poor get poorer. The result of that is and always will be, more violence. Change the culture, change the social structure, follow the lead of places where those things are working and there will be less violence. But does America really want less violence. Look at our history. Probably not.
I personally don't think that choice of entertainment is part of the problem. Canadians and Europeans watch the same movies and play the same video games as Americans do.
I'm being completely serious when I say this: the only thing that will change American gun culture is an apocalypse. Seriously. I truly believe it is irreversable at this point. You try, you will get a revolution. A fucking violent one at that.
In general, we're so slow to and resistant to change here in the U.S. that any revolution or apocalypse in going to be none existent or very much in slow motion. The best weapon is the pen. And the internet is like a super-pen. If we use it right, the culture will change. If we continue to promote violence, the slo-mo break down will just keep degrading what is left.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Of course they don't leave guns in car when going to a call. Can't do that in states due to love of guns.
But also say there has to be a better way than to give mentally unstable person access to the gun.
And "he reached for my gun" seems to be a common theme.
Resisting arrest and fighting with police is a common theme too.
How is the cop supposed to be aware of medical condition of suspect? Acting strangely can be attributed to several things... not to mention drugs that can make a person highly unpredictable and volatile.
Resisting arrest a death sentence ? Fighting cop death sentence ? Who determines resistance? The cop?
Offer solutions. Five cops and no Visable weapon should not equal death. One idiot with flat blade screwdriver against. 5. Cops should not equal death.
You are the one critical of current practices.
How about you offer solutions?
Better pay
Higher admittance standards
Better de-escalation training
Tougher penalties (or simply having penalties) for unnecessary use of force
Higher physical fitness standards
Extensive, ongoing PT and hand to hand combat training
Tasers on all belts and flak on all officers
Holsters which prohibit gun pulls from the front
Bodycams
agreed on all counts. but where is all this money going to come from? in Canada, cops are paid hansomly. by and large, the right people are recruited. not sure why it's so different to the south.
do such holsters exist, by the way? and don't all cops pull forward when drawing their gun? I would imagine it would be incredibly awkward to pull backwards when it's on your hip.
The money could come from anywhere...cut subsidies to the sugar, oil, "defense" industries and boom, there's your money. Close a foreign military base, legalize pot and tax it, sin tax on soda, the possibilities are limitless.
As far as the gun pull, I don't know if they exist, but the mechanics wouldn't be b hard to design...a deep groove on the gun correspondent to a ridge in the holster is a pretty simple idea. Think aboutaboutw a gun comes out of a belt holster...because ypur arm is bent and your hand faces away from you, it comes out up and slightly back, now just increase the back slide a little bit and it wont come out if someone pulls from the front as their hand faces you.
If we can make police safer and more confident, everybody wins. Every step away from Barney Fife and towards James Bond makes everybody safer and happier.
Of course they don't leave guns in car when going to a call. Can't do that in states due to love of guns.
But also say there has to be a better way than to give mentally unstable person access to the gun.
And "he reached for my gun" seems to be a common theme.
Resisting arrest and fighting with police is a common theme too.
How is the cop supposed to be aware of medical condition of suspect? Acting strangely can be attributed to several things... not to mention drugs that can make a person highly unpredictable and volatile.
Resisting arrest a death sentence ? Fighting cop death sentence ? Who determines resistance? The cop?
Offer solutions. Five cops and no Visable weapon should not equal death. One idiot with flat blade screwdriver against. 5. Cops should not equal death.
You are the one critical of current practices.
How about you offer solutions?
Better pay
Higher admittance standards
Better de-escalation training
Tougher penalties (or simply having penalties) for unnecessary use of force
Higher physical fitness standards
Extensive, ongoing PT and hand to hand combat training
Tasers on all belts and flak on all officers
Holsters which prohibit gun pulls from the front
Bodycams
agreed on all counts. but where is all this money going to come from? in Canada, cops are paid hansomly. by and large, the right people are recruited. not sure why it's so different to the south.
do such holsters exist, by the way? and don't all cops pull forward when drawing their gun? I would imagine it would be incredibly awkward to pull backwards when it's on your hip.
The money could come from anywhere...cut subsidies to the sugar, oil, "defense" industries and boom, there's your money. Close a foreign military base, legalize pot and tax it, sin tax on soda, the possibilities are limitless.
As far as the gun pull, I don't know if they exist, but the mechanics wouldn't be b hard to design...a deep groove on the gun correspondent to a ridge in the holster is a pretty simple idea. Think aboutaboutw a gun comes out of a belt holster...because ypur arm is bent and your hand faces away from you, it comes out up and slightly back, now just increase the back slide a little bit and it wont come out if someone pulls from the front as their hand faces you.
that was my point. all of those options of where the money could come from aren't feasible in the current social paranoid and conservative climate in the US. I just don't see it happening. defence is too high a commodity in the public's eyes. cutting subsidies to the biggest industries in the US is a no brainer-ain't gonna happen. taxing soda is a tax on the poor. closing a military base? are you MAD? LOL
Of course they don't leave guns in car when going to a call. Can't do that in states due to love of guns.
But also say there has to be a better way than to give mentally unstable person access to the gun.
And "he reached for my gun" seems to be a common theme.
Resisting arrest and fighting with police is a common theme too.
How is the cop supposed to be aware of medical condition of suspect? Acting strangely can be attributed to several things... not to mention drugs that can make a person highly unpredictable and volatile.
Bingo. Stop using illness as an excuse to defy the police. It will end badly EVERY TIME.
Of course they don't leave guns in car when going to a call. Can't do that in states due to love of guns.
But also say there has to be a better way than to give mentally unstable person access to the gun.
And "he reached for my gun" seems to be a common theme.
Resisting arrest and fighting with police is a common theme too.
How is the cop supposed to be aware of medical condition of suspect? Acting strangely can be attributed to several things... not to mention drugs that can make a person highly unpredictable and volatile.
Resisting arrest a death sentence ? Fighting cop death sentence ? Who determines resistance? The cop?
Offer solutions. Five cops and no Visable weapon should not equal death. One idiot with flat blade screwdriver against. 5. Cops should not equal death.
You are the one critical of current practices.
How about you offer solutions?
Better pay
Higher admittance standards
Better de-escalation training
Tougher penalties (or simply having penalties) for unnecessary use of force
Higher physical fitness standards
Extensive, ongoing PT and hand to hand combat training
Tasers on all belts and flak on all officers
Holsters which prohibit gun pulls from the front
Bodycams
agreed on all counts. but where is all this money going to come from? in Canada, cops are paid hansomly. by and large, the right people are recruited. not sure why it's so different to the south.
do such holsters exist, by the way? and don't all cops pull forward when drawing their gun? I would imagine it would be incredibly awkward to pull backwards when it's on your hip.
The money could come from anywhere...cut subsidies to the sugar, oil, "defense" industries and boom, there's your money. Close a foreign military base, legalize pot and tax it, sin tax on soda, the possibilities are limitless.
As far as the gun pull, I don't know if they exist, but the mechanics wouldn't be b hard to design...a deep groove on the gun correspondent to a ridge in the holster is a pretty simple idea. Think aboutaboutw a gun comes out of a belt holster...because ypur arm is bent and your hand faces away from you, it comes out up and slightly back, now just increase the back slide a little bit and it wont come out if someone pulls from the front as their hand faces you.
that was my point. all of those options of where the money could come from aren't feasible in the current social paranoid and conservative climate in the US. I just don't see it happening. defence is too high a commodity in the public's eyes. cutting subsidies to the biggest industries in the US is a no brainer-ain't gonna happen. taxing soda is a tax on the poor. closing a military base? are you MAD? LOL
Haha yeah, there isn't much hope for any progress in this country, unless you count regression as progress lol
Are there any minorities on these boards? How about we hear what their views are. I bet not one of you supporting the police is in the minority.
Some very sound logic has been presented to you.
You have ignored it and further... you have become rude- taking personal shots, stomping your foot, and appearing completely unwilling to consider anything outside of your belief system.
Not fantastic.
I have ignored what, I ask questions and get the run-around for answers. Except for the other post, 30, where I agree with you, you are merely taking stabs now. My belief system or the big elephant in the room that we are having a national crisis between Police and minorities??? That shoot to kill is acceptable???
You haven't spoken to any of the moderate positions posted.
And seem to have forgotten that you essentially acknowledged the police are only the tip of the spear. Society has created a situation where many people- especially minorities- have grown to resent much, hate the estabishment, resort to crime, and force the police hand. Police have grown to resent consistently dealing with problems in certain neighborhoods. Every cop has their story: most do not enter the force as full fledged racists- these attitudes develop over time and incident.
We have placed both sides of the issue we speak of as opponents to some degree by setting the stage. It's way bigger than retraining officers or offering sensitivity training- these tactics are nothing more than plugging holes in the dam with your fingers.
Moderate positions? Have you any acknowledgment that maybe the establishment has gotten more racist rather than accepting? It goes both ways. Establishment tends to be racist, minorities get pissed about it. Minorities lack respect for racist authority, authority's coming back with the big guns. So if that's what you mean by moderate positions, let's agree that both sides have a part in it.
It STARTS with retraining the police, and continues with accepting everyone regardless of color. This has to come from the authority first.
Hey, backseat......yes, if 1 man tries to disarm a cop while 3 others try, unsuccessfully, to stop him, lethal force is absolutely 100% excusable. I can't personally believe that anyone would put the life of a fucking asshole lunatic above not only law enforcement, but potential innocent bystanders. That, to me, is unconscionable.
No. 4 men snap-judment arrive at the fact that killing the one victim rather than getting their shit together and disarm and bring him down ALIVE? That's poor tactic right there. You have 4 big shots that can't handle the high pressure job of having backup to help disarm a man ON THE GROUND without killing. That's cowardly. That's unacceptable. That's unconscionable.
To say that a man that so obviously overwhelmed by authority's hands - 8 of them - at his neck deserves death, that person has no conscience.
Hey, backseat......yes, if 1 man tries to disarm a cop while 3 others try, unsuccessfully, to stop him, lethal force is absolutely 100% excusable. I can't personally believe that anyone would put the life of a fucking asshole lunatic above not only law enforcement, but potential innocent bystanders. That, to me, is unconscionable.
That's because there are a lot of cop haters on here. These are people who believe that all cops are lying racists who are just looking for an excuse to kill someone of color.
But you know that if someone was to break into their house and steal their precious Pearl Jam vinyl collection, that the first thing they do after posting an angry thread or 2 on here, is to call the police for help.
Please link me to where any one of us looking on this topic has said that ALL cops are racist. I said it before (in other threads), I'll say it again. Not all cops are bad. But the bad ones are sure as hell making headlines lately, giving all the good ones a bad rep. Find me please as well, the statistics on police brutality. But you can't, because the nation has never had such a thing on record. Coincidence? I think not.
Me neither.... Do you mean that you think people are leaping to the defense of guilty cops? ... I would agree if you're talking about other cops, the justice system, etc. But definitely not if you mean the general public.
Think some relish that the bad guy gets killed and many have given statements of how perp was dumb in their actions versus seeing alternative to shooting person. And little too much benefit towards the cop
Will say I don't believe any of the cops are wanting to shoot and kill, bad judgement training procedures and we created this mess with our gun culture.
Police will change some procedures from this along as thinking bit more so some lives will be saved including cops lives not being ruined
I was thinking that as well, the gun culture makes all of this mess acceptable (to many) that more cops shoot to kill, rather than actually try to save a life. Maybe many don't go out to kill on the job, I can believe that, but snap judgment tactics are to use deadly force which enable more for the gun culture we've become accustomed to. More gun use, the more the public accepts it as the norm. More death for minorities, the more the public accepts it as the norm. Which is FUCKED UP. I see no one going around championing life, yet more and more people defend death brought on by police. A society norm, a new culture for the U.S. We should be proud. Not.
Oh, and yeah, the idea of retraining the police saves them from bad reputations. While hoping it actually makes a difference and saves more lives.
Of course they don't leave guns in car when going to a call. Can't do that in states due to love of guns.
But also say there has to be a better way than to give mentally unstable person access to the gun.
And "he reached for my gun" seems to be a common theme.
Resisting arrest and fighting with police is a common theme too.
How is the cop supposed to be aware of medical condition of suspect? Acting strangely can be attributed to several things... not to mention drugs that can make a person highly unpredictable and volatile.
How about actually talking to the person? And I'm not meaning "Arms up, drop your weapons…" I'm talking human relation skills. You know actually conversing, finding out the issue, talking the person down, relating as an empathetic person. How many cops even do that anymore? Or do they try with taser in hand and gun nearby, ready to strike rather than help?
I'll throw in my two cents. Unless you're in favor of needless deaths and ongoing violence, the culture needs to change. Callen pointed out that in some European cultures cops don't even carry guns. Why? Because they are not a culture of violence and because they have less social inequity. We promote violence through our a-musement (interesting word when you break it down), and so-called entertainments. That's half the picture. The other half is the inequity in the U.S. The rich get richer poor get poorer. The result of that is and always will be, more violence. Change the culture, change the social structure, follow the lead of places where those things are working and there will be less violence. But does America really want less violence. Look at our history. Probably not.
The voice of reason. I sincerely believe our culture will go down in flames before American society is willing to give up their love for violence and guns. However, the first solution? In poor areas where the majority are minorities? Fire the mostly White police force and start over and get more minorities on the force. Have them be the majority of the force actually. That is a no-brainer, since we're not going to solve racism anytime soon.
I'll throw in my two cents. Unless you're in favor of needless deaths and ongoing violence, the culture needs to change. Callen pointed out that in some European cultures cops don't even carry guns. Why? Because they are not a culture of violence and because they have less social inequity. We promote violence through our a-musement (interesting word when you break it down), and so-called entertainments. That's half the picture. The other half is the inequity in the U.S. The rich get richer poor get poorer. The result of that is and always will be, more violence. Change the culture, change the social structure, follow the lead of places where those things are working and there will be less violence. But does America really want less violence. Look at our history. Probably not.
I personally don't think that choice of entertainment is part of the problem. Canadians and Europeans watch the same movies and play the same video games as Americans do.
I'm being completely serious when I say this: the only thing that will change American gun culture is an apocalypse. Seriously. I truly believe it is irreversable at this point. You try, you will get a revolution. A fucking violent one at that.
Yes. Especially when so many people feel that police are justified to kill rather than attempt to save a life.
Of course they don't leave guns in car when going to a call. Can't do that in states due to love of guns.
But also say there has to be a better way than to give mentally unstable person access to the gun.
And "he reached for my gun" seems to be a common theme.
Resisting arrest and fighting with police is a common theme too.
How is the cop supposed to be aware of medical condition of suspect? Acting strangely can be attributed to several things... not to mention drugs that can make a person highly unpredictable and volatile.
How about actually talking to the person? And I'm not meaning "Arms up, drop your weapons…" I'm talking human relation skills. You know actually conversing, finding out the issue, talking the person down, relating as an empathetic person. How many cops even do that anymore? Or do they try with taser in hand and gun nearby, ready to strike rather than help?
I know we don't share a lot of common ground on this topic, but will agree with you here. In fact, the DoJ put our Seattle PD under a mandatory reform plan due to many civil rights violations that were occurring in the dept. One thing that is changing is that the SPD is being trained to do just as you suggest above. They are even spending less time at the academy teaching fighting techniques, and more time teaching them how to talk to people, be empathetic, and deal with individuals. Here's a link to the specific outline of the change at SPD: http://www.justice.gov/usao-wdwa/pr/doj-and-city-hail-federal-judge-s-approval-new-seattle-police-department-crisis
One of the most egregious shootings in the past few years was an SPD cop who jumped out of his car yelling at a Native American man who was a known street person, had some hearing impairment, alcoholism, and some mental issues. He was a woodcarver, and would sit on the streets of Seattle carving little totems, so he always was carrying his carving knife. He had no time to comprehend what the officer was yelling at him, no time to comply, and was gunned down. Even SPD ruled the shooting unjustified. I thought the cop should fry for the shooting, but he was dismissed from the dept, and not prosecuted. Anyway, that is one example of why the DoJ stepped in and we had wholesale changes in leadership in the SPD.
I think empathy, and understanding can go a long way toward deescalation, and avoiding many tragic shootings. At the same time, I completely justify the shooting of criminals who will not comply, and pose a serious risk to the safety and lives of the cops and public. So while you think many of us are blood-thirsty, blindly pro-cop, racists who like to see minorities get killed, what I think most of us are can be summed up as pragmatic realists.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
All you guys do is flat out support with no justification for KILLING another human, when it is supposed to be a last resort. For the sake of humanity, where is your conscience? Do you honestly feel we should obey or else death becomes us, because we dare to question the police?
I don't support cops killing people for arguing. I do justify cops shooting people who are putting others in imminent danger. Cops shoot to STOP not shoot to kill. The way you shoot to stop is to aim for center mass. Death is often the unfortunate outcome. But it is an outcome directly caused by the suspect escalating it to that point. You want to excuse criminals for their unlawful behavior and handcuff cops who are trying to protect themselves and others.
And to explicitly answer you latest query, I don't value all life the same, and I think that a scumbag, anti-social, criminals life is less valuable than mine or than the people protecting mine.
Cops aiming for the center mass is NOT shooting to stop, and you know it. Shooting for center mass is aiming for the heart. You're doing nothing but making excuses for murder. I can see what that says about your conscience.
And sometimes that scumbag, anti-social criminal grows up to enter the police academy to become a cop.
I don't know any such thing. Cops (and anyone who has trained in self defense) are always taught to shoot at center mass. It is simply the largest target area, and an effective area to hit to stop a threat. In a situation where one has to act quickly under enormous pressure, accuracy is nowhere near what it is in a controlled situation on a range, or plinking at cans in a field. If you are not aiming at the largest part of your target, you'll likely miss in a high-stress situation. The training is absolutely about stopping a threat. It isn't about shooting to kill.
I don't disagree with your last statement, and just like in the general population, there will always be a few assholes with no regard for others' safety and lives. But that doesn't really have anything to do with my answer to your question, so I'll turn it around on you - do you place equal value on all human life?
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
Comments
How is the cop supposed to be aware of medical condition of suspect? Acting strangely can be attributed to several things... not to mention drugs that can make a person highly unpredictable and volatile.
In many European countries cops don't carry guns and cop shootings like in US don't happen.
The black and white seems to reside in shootings and killings and blank approval to cops following current procedures.
Offer solutions. Five cops and no Visable weapon should not equal death. One idiot with flat blade screwdriver against. 5. Cops should not equal death.
yes, we all know that many euro cops don't carry guns. yes, the gun culture in america is different than anywhere else. that's not the fault of the police. they don't "love guns". they NEED GUNS. I hate guns, personally. But I can't for the life of me picture a world in north america where cops don't carry guns. it would be a cake walk for criminals.
I'll ask again: what would YOU have the cops do instead of carrying guns? don't make this into a culture war. we know american gun culture is fucked up. but that doesn't change what cops need to do in times of danger.
www.headstonesband.com
How about you offer solutions?
Higher admittance standards
Better de-escalation training
Tougher penalties (or simply having penalties) for unnecessary use of force
Higher physical fitness standards
Extensive, ongoing PT and hand to hand combat training
Tasers on all belts and flak on all officers
Holsters which prohibit gun pulls from the front
Bodycams
I'm being completely serious when I say this: the only thing that will change American gun culture is an apocalypse. Seriously. I truly believe it is irreversable at this point. You try, you will get a revolution. A fucking violent one at that.
www.headstonesband.com
In the meantime, we have human beings like you and I doing a really tough job. How about until we have implemented these changes, we afford them a level of respect and understanding when they are challenged in a potentially life and death situation.
Of course, when it is ascertained that one of these professionals has performed negligently (Rice or Thomas cases for examples), we should administer appropriate consequences.
do such holsters exist, by the way? and don't all cops pull forward when drawing their gun? I would imagine it would be incredibly awkward to pull backwards when it's on your hip.
www.headstonesband.com
Small incremental changes are your only hope to achieve change over the long haul. There is no immediate band aid cure for what ails you at the moment.
As far as the gun pull, I don't know if they exist, but the mechanics wouldn't be b hard to design...a deep groove on the gun correspondent to a ridge in the holster is a pretty simple idea. Think aboutaboutw a gun comes out of a belt holster...because ypur arm is bent and your hand faces away from you, it comes out up and slightly back, now just increase the back slide a little bit and it wont come out if someone pulls from the front as their hand faces you.
Every step away from Barney Fife and towards James Bond makes everybody safer and happier.
www.headstonesband.com
It STARTS with retraining the police, and continues with accepting everyone regardless of color. This has to come from the authority first.
To say that a man that so obviously overwhelmed by authority's hands - 8 of them - at his neck deserves death, that person has no conscience.
Oh, and I don't give a shit about merch.
Oh, and yeah, the idea of retraining the police saves them from bad reputations. While hoping it actually makes a difference and saves more lives.
http://www.justice.gov/usao-wdwa/pr/doj-and-city-hail-federal-judge-s-approval-new-seattle-police-department-crisis
One of the most egregious shootings in the past few years was an SPD cop who jumped out of his car yelling at a Native American man who was a known street person, had some hearing impairment, alcoholism, and some mental issues. He was a woodcarver, and would sit on the streets of Seattle carving little totems, so he always was carrying his carving knife. He had no time to comprehend what the officer was yelling at him, no time to comply, and was gunned down. Even SPD ruled the shooting unjustified. I thought the cop should fry for the shooting, but he was dismissed from the dept, and not prosecuted. Anyway, that is one example of why the DoJ stepped in and we had wholesale changes in leadership in the SPD.
I think empathy, and understanding can go a long way toward deescalation, and avoiding many tragic shootings. At the same time, I completely justify the shooting of criminals who will not comply, and pose a serious risk to the safety and lives of the cops and public. So while you think many of us are blood-thirsty, blindly pro-cop, racists who like to see minorities get killed, what I think most of us are can be summed up as pragmatic realists.
I don't disagree with your last statement, and just like in the general population, there will always be a few assholes with no regard for others' safety and lives. But that doesn't really have anything to do with my answer to your question, so I'll turn it around on you - do you place equal value on all human life?