Are there any minorities on these boards? How about we hear what their views are. I bet not one of you supporting the police is in the minority.
Some very sound logic has been presented to you.
You have ignored it and further... you have become rude- taking personal shots, stomping your foot, and appearing completely unwilling to consider anything outside of your belief system.
Not fantastic.
I have ignored what, I ask questions and get the run-around for answers. Except for the other post, 30, where I agree with you, you are merely taking stabs now. My belief system or the big elephant in the room that we are having a national crisis between Police and minorities??? That shoot to kill is acceptable???
You haven't spoken to any of the moderate positions posted.
And seem to have forgotten that you essentially acknowledged the police are only the tip of the spear. Society has created a situation where many people- especially minorities- have grown to resent much, hate the estabishment, resort to crime, and force the police hand. Police have grown to resent consistently dealing with problems in certain neighborhoods. Every cop has their story: most do not enter the force as full fledged racists- these attitudes develop over time and incident.
We have placed both sides of the issue we speak of as opponents to some degree by setting the stage. It's way bigger than retraining officers or offering sensitivity training- these tactics are nothing more than plugging holes in the dam with your fingers.
Hey, backseat......yes, if 1 man tries to disarm a cop while 3 others try, unsuccessfully, to stop him, lethal force is absolutely 100% excusable. I can't personally believe that anyone would put the life of a fucking asshole lunatic above not only law enforcement, but potential innocent bystanders. That, to me, is unconscionable.
Hey, backseat......yes, if 1 man tries to disarm a cop while 3 others try, unsuccessfully, to stop him, lethal force is absolutely 100% excusable. I can't personally believe that anyone would put the life of a fucking asshole lunatic above not only law enforcement, but potential innocent bystanders. That, to me, is unconscionable.
That's because there are a lot of cop haters on here. These are people who believe that all cops are lying racists who are just looking for an excuse to kill someone of color.
But you know that if someone was to break into their house and steal their precious Pearl Jam vinyl collection, that the first thing they do after posting an angry thread or 2 on here, is to call the police for help.
lesson: listen to the cops. it's really just that simple.
I now realize that was just a small fraction of cops, and most are good.
Ya know, I do listen when I get pulled over. It's just a duh move to not to. But I feel that aside from the rest of your post that I didn't quote (but which I appreciate), all the other police supporters here don't ever comment on the topic of police respecting the people they are paid to protect, black or white. I don't feel you guys ever address the NEED to kill, shoot for the chest, and not the shoulder or leg. Where is the backup argument for this. You, Hedonist, 30 bills, Musky, LastExit, etc. I'm talking to you. All you guys do is flat out support with no justification for KILLING another human, when it is supposed to be a last resort. For the sake of humanity, where is your conscience? Do you honestly feel we should obey or else death becomes us, because we dare to question the police?
You reach for a cop's gun, when there are 4 cops and one of you? Death should not be in that equation. The fact that 4 grown men can't handle that scene without killing another man makes the police look BAD. And we are supposed to trust police when they go back and tell their supervisors that THEIR lives were in danger? If there are no witnesses, we are to blankly assume they're telling the truth? That is what's happening and it in no way justifies the death of another human being.
Do you have any clue how difficukt it is to hit a moving target, nevermind trying to hit them in the leg? Look it up. Look up the statistical probability of being able to subdue a charging, or even up close and wrestling, perp by shooting them in that 4 inch wide mound of flesh. This isn't the movies. That just doesn't happen.
You ever hear of adrenaline? Extreme psychotic drugs? Those often show how difficult it can actually be for multiple people to successfully subdue another person in an extreme rage.
Lethal force is and always should be the last resort. But what is the last resort for you? after the first cop has already been killed? Then its ok to gun down the perp? Why do you seem to value a criminal's life in these scenarios more than the police?
Is there a problem between minorities and law enforcement in your country? Damn right. How about my country? No question about it. But it goes way deeper than just the front lines. And the suggestion that police just lay down and take it in the ass because of social ills they did not create is inconcievable to me.
Hey, backseat......yes, if 1 man tries to disarm a cop while 3 others try, unsuccessfully, to stop him, lethal force is absolutely 100% excusable. I can't personally believe that anyone would put the life of a fucking asshole lunatic above not only law enforcement, but potential innocent bystanders. That, to me, is unconscionable.
Hey, backseat......yes, if 1 man tries to disarm a cop while 3 others try, unsuccessfully, to stop him, lethal force is absolutely 100% excusable. I can't personally believe that anyone would put the life of a fucking asshole lunatic above not only law enforcement, but potential innocent bystanders. That, to me, is unconscionable.
That's because there are a lot of cop haters on here. These are people who believe that all cops are lying racists who are just looking for an excuse to kill someone of color.
But you know that if someone was to break into their house and steal their precious Pearl Jam vinyl collection, that the first thing they do after posting an angry thread or 2 on here, is to call the police for help.
Hallelujah to this post....Nice touch with the vinyl's
I think backseat makes a great point about 4 cops losing control of a situation and then having to kill a suspect because "he was reaching for my gun". If I was that shitty at my job, I would be fired.
Yea, better training. That's the answer to all of the ass holes that want to do the opposite of what cops say.
By the way...these "assholes" are usually mentally ill people.....but fuck them. They should die too. They have it comin'.
I don't remember hearing that Michael Brown was mentally ill.
That's all you got as a response eh? I can post dozens of cases where the police have killed unarmed mentally ill men. And you got Michael Brown........
But yeah, if the police encounter "assholes" or "stupid" people , they should just kill them. No other solution....no other way. Got it. Glad you're not a cop.
Thankfully there are good cops out there....who find another way.
Yea, better training. That's the answer to all of the ass holes that want to do the opposite of what cops say.
By the way...these "assholes" are usually mentally ill people.....but fuck them. They should die too. They have it comin'.
I don't remember hearing that Michael Brown was mentally ill.
That's all you got as a response eh? I can post dozens of cases where the police have killed unarmed mentally ill men. And you got Michael Brown........
But yeah, if the police encounter "assholes" or "stupid" people , they should just kill them. No other solution....no other way. Got it. Glad you're not a cop.
Thankfully there are good cops out there....who find another way.
Please, post them. Bottom line is still, listen to the cops. That goes for everybody. Whites, blacks drunks, junkies, depressed, autistic, and normal people......
I think backseat makes a great point about 4 cops losing control of a situation and then having to kill a suspect because "he was reaching for my gun". If I was that shitty at my job, I would be fired.
Maybe you are and just don't know it?
I'm sure those cops think they're okay at what they do too.
You just can't win though: the cops spend an exorbitant of time trying to talk the guy down until things escalated to violence. It's hard to tell from the video, but it sure looks like the guy had (a) plenty of time to realize he was screwed... and (b) an opportunity to succumb when they gained the upper hand.
Instead, he basically told them to stick it and when he was losing the struggle he tried to grab one of the cop's guns. What was he going to do with that?
Yea, better training. That's the answer to all of the ass holes that want to do the opposite of what cops say.
By the way...these "assholes" are usually mentally ill people.....but fuck them. They should die too. They have it comin'.
And who's responsible for all these mentally ill people roaming the streets homeless and committing crimes? Is it the cop's fault as he addresses the problem on the front... or is it a little further reaching than that?
Yea, better training. That's the answer to all of the ass holes that want to do the opposite of what cops say.
By the way...these "assholes" are usually mentally ill people.....but fuck them. They should die too. They have it comin'.
As staunch a supporter of the mentally ill as I am....(see Vince Li thread)....should a cop die because the person has a condition? Had vince li lunged at cops with his knife, i would say they would have had no choice but to shoot.
Me neither.... Do you mean that you think people are leaping to the defense of guilty cops? ... I would agree if you're talking about other cops, the justice system, etc. But definitely not if you mean the general public.
Think some relish that the bad guy gets killed and many have given statements of how perp was dumb in their actions versus seeing alternative to shooting person. And little too much benefit towards the cop
Will say I don't believe any of the cops are wanting to shoot and kill, bad judgement training procedures and we created this mess with our gun culture.
Police will change some procedures from this along as thinking bit more so some lives will be saved including cops lives not being ruined
Me neither.... Do you mean that you think people are leaping to the defense of guilty cops? ... I would agree if you're talking about other cops, the justice system, etc. But definitely not if you mean the general public.
Think some relish that the bad guy gets killed and many have given statements of how perp was dumb in their actions versus seeing alternative to shooting person. And little too much benefit towards the cop
Will say I don't believe any of the cops are wanting to shoot and kill, bad judgement training procedures and we created this mess with our gun culture.
Police will change some procedures from this along as thinking bit more so some lives will be saved including cops lives not being ruined
we were presented with a scenario: guy goes for cop's gun. what does cop do?
i say cop defends himself lethally if necessary. IF NECESSARY. But who are you or I to judge what is necessary in the blink of an eye? no amount of training will change someone's reflexes. sometimes they simply don't have time to think about it.
Yea, better training. That's the answer to all of the ass holes that want to do the opposite of what cops say.
By the way...these "assholes" are usually mentally ill people.....but fuck them. They should die too. They have it comin'.
I don't remember hearing that Michael Brown was mentally ill.
That's all you got as a response eh? I can post dozens of cases where the police have killed unarmed mentally ill men. And you got Michael Brown........
But yeah, if the police encounter "assholes" or "stupid" people , they should just kill them. No other solution....no other way. Got it. Glad you're not a cop.
Thankfully there are good cops out there....who find another way.
Please, post them. Bottom line is still, listen to the cops. That goes for everybody. Whites, blacks drunks, junkies, depressed, autistic, and normal people......
Yea, better training. That's the answer to all of the ass holes that want to do the opposite of what cops say.
By the way...these "assholes" are usually mentally ill people.....but fuck them. They should die too. They have it comin'.
And who's responsible for all these mentally ill people roaming the streets homeless and committing crimes? Is it the cop's fault as he addresses the problem on the front... or is it a little further reaching than that?
I agree. It's a tragedy that our police are the ones that are left to deal with the ill of our society. But that issue could have it's own thread. As it stands right now it's our police that have to deal with them.....so shouldn't they be better trained to deal with them?
Yea, better training. That's the answer to all of the ass holes that want to do the opposite of what cops say.
By the way...these "assholes" are usually mentally ill people.....but fuck them. They should die too. They have it comin'.
As staunch a supporter of the mentally ill as I am....(see Vince Li thread)....should a cop die because the person has a condition? Had vince li lunged at cops with his knife, i would say they would have had no choice but to shoot.
I agree, but there are way too many cases of the unarmed being killed.
Yea, better training. That's the answer to all of the ass holes that want to do the opposite of what cops say.
By the way...these "assholes" are usually mentally ill people.....but fuck them. They should die too. They have it comin'.
I don't remember hearing that Michael Brown was mentally ill.
That's all you got as a response eh? I can post dozens of cases where the police have killed unarmed mentally ill men. And you got Michael Brown........
But yeah, if the police encounter "assholes" or "stupid" people , they should just kill them. No other solution....no other way. Got it. Glad you're not a cop.
Thankfully there are good cops out there....who find another way.
Please, post them. Bottom line is still, listen to the cops. That goes for everybody. Whites, blacks drunks, junkies, depressed, autistic, and normal people......
It's endless. But your only solution is that the mentally should just stop being mentally ill.
to be fair, the types of people he mentoined here are not mentally ill, save for "depressed". and the depressed can still listen to the police and don't generally go after their weapons.
instead of just taking us to task about what the cops shouldn't do, what do you think the cops should do? any solutions? what training can a cop get to deal with a deranged violent non-compliant and possibly homicidal person? that is a serious question, and I'm hoping I don't get just a "don't shoot them" answer.
Yea, better training. That's the answer to all of the ass holes that want to do the opposite of what cops say.
By the way...these "assholes" are usually mentally ill people.....but fuck them. They should die too. They have it comin'.
And who's responsible for all these mentally ill people roaming the streets homeless and committing crimes? Is it the cop's fault as he addresses the problem on the front... or is it a little further reaching than that?
I agree. It's a tragedy that our police are the ones that are left to deal with the ill of our society. But that issue could have it's own thread. As it stands right now it's our police that have to deal with them.....so shouldn't they be better trained to deal with them?
Yes.
But in the meantime we can't call them pigs or chickenshits when they defend themselves from perceived threats in the line of duty. They value their lives just as much as you and I value ours and have a right as well as society's permission to defend themselves with deadly force if attacked.
And as Hugh stated, I think it is a little reckless to categorize these combatants as mentally I'll. While there have been some high profile cases (I mentioned the Kelly Thomas incident)... many have not involved someone ill outside of being depressed.
Hugh if there's one deranged unarmed man there should be a way 5 cops could handle it don't you think? The problem was the cops allowed access To the gun by bringing the gun to the fight.
This though is one particular incident and think the advent Of video will force change of police tactics that are needed.
Hugh if there's one deranged unarmed man there should be a way 5 cops could handle it don't you think? The problem was the cops allowed access To the gun by bringing the gun to the fight.
This though is one particular incident and think the advent Of video will force change of police tactics that are needed.
Well of course they brought a gun to the fight.
What are you thinking, man? Is it your expectation that cops leave their guns in the cars until they determine what they will need to handle each situation they attempt to manage?
I'm confused. So these people were not mentally ill? Even though the professionals say they are. Or not mentally ill enough for some here? Where is the line? I'm at a loss.
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
Of course they don't leave guns in car when going to a call. Can't do that in states due to love of guns.
But also say there has to be a better way than to give mentally unstable person access to the gun.
And "he reached for my gun" seems to be a common theme.
Due to love of guns? Really, that's the reason?
How about due to protection of life, whether that of an innocent or the big bad cop?
What about assholes drunk or wasted out of their mind who are aggressive and...(wait for it)...reaching for the gun? Or armed themselves? We just had someone out here (mentioned in another thread) who after a fucked up pursuit came out gun a'blazing. Could've been killed by return fire but the police, after a long standoff, handled it peacefully. No dead asshole.
That this is so black and white to some, just beyond me.
Comments
And seem to have forgotten that you essentially acknowledged the police are only the tip of the spear. Society has created a situation where many people- especially minorities- have grown to resent much, hate the estabishment, resort to crime, and force the police hand. Police have grown to resent consistently dealing with problems in certain neighborhoods. Every cop has their story: most do not enter the force as full fledged racists- these attitudes develop over time and incident.
We have placed both sides of the issue we speak of as opponents to some degree by setting the stage. It's way bigger than retraining officers or offering sensitivity training- these tactics are nothing more than plugging holes in the dam with your fingers.
www.headstonesband.com
These are people who believe that all cops are lying racists who are just looking for an excuse to kill someone of color.
But you know that if someone was to break into their house and steal their precious Pearl Jam vinyl collection, that the first thing they do after posting an angry thread or 2 on here, is to call the police for help.
You ever hear of adrenaline? Extreme psychotic drugs? Those often show how difficult it can actually be for multiple people to successfully subdue another person in an extreme rage.
Lethal force is and always should be the last resort. But what is the last resort for you? after the first cop has already been killed? Then its ok to gun down the perp? Why do you seem to value a criminal's life in these scenarios more than the police?
Is there a problem between minorities and law enforcement in your country? Damn right. How about my country? No question about it. But it goes way deeper than just the front lines. And the suggestion that police just lay down and take it in the ass because of social ills they did not create is inconcievable to me.
www.headstonesband.com
But yeah, if the police encounter "assholes" or "stupid" people , they should just kill them. No other solution....no other way. Got it. Glad you're not a cop.
Thankfully there are good cops out there....who find another way.
I'm sure those cops think they're okay at what they do too.
You just can't win though: the cops spend an exorbitant of time trying to talk the guy down until things escalated to violence. It's hard to tell from the video, but it sure looks like the guy had (a) plenty of time to realize he was screwed... and (b) an opportunity to succumb when they gained the upper hand.
Instead, he basically told them to stick it and when he was losing the struggle he tried to grab one of the cop's guns. What was he going to do with that?
www.headstonesband.com
Will say I don't believe any of the cops are wanting to shoot and kill, bad judgement training procedures and we created this mess with our gun culture.
Police will change some procedures from this along as thinking bit more so some lives will be saved including cops lives not being ruined
i say cop defends himself lethally if necessary. IF NECESSARY. But who are you or I to judge what is necessary in the blink of an eye? no amount of training will change someone's reflexes. sometimes they simply don't have time to think about it.
www.headstonesband.com
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/mar/18/video-dallas-police-shooting-mentally-ill-black-man
http://www.alternet.org/why-are-cops-shooting-so-many-mentally-ill-people
It's endless. But your only solution is that the mentally should just stop being mentally ill.
instead of just taking us to task about what the cops shouldn't do, what do you think the cops should do? any solutions? what training can a cop get to deal with a deranged violent non-compliant and possibly homicidal person? that is a serious question, and I'm hoping I don't get just a "don't shoot them" answer.
www.headstonesband.com
But in the meantime we can't call them pigs or chickenshits when they defend themselves from perceived threats in the line of duty. They value their lives just as much as you and I value ours and have a right as well as society's permission to defend themselves with deadly force if attacked.
And as Hugh stated, I think it is a little reckless to categorize these combatants as mentally I'll. While there have been some high profile cases (I mentioned the Kelly Thomas incident)... many have not involved someone ill outside of being depressed.
To the gun by bringing the gun to the fight.
This though is one particular incident and think the advent Of video will force change of police tactics that are needed.
What are you thinking, man? Is it your expectation that cops leave their guns in the cars until they determine what they will need to handle each situation they attempt to manage?
You're out of your mind.
But also say there has to be a better way than to give mentally unstable person access to the gun.
And "he reached for my gun" seems to be a common theme.
How about due to protection of life, whether that of an innocent or the big bad cop?
What about assholes drunk or wasted out of their mind who are aggressive and...(wait for it)...reaching for the gun? Or armed themselves? We just had someone out here (mentioned in another thread) who after a fucked up pursuit came out gun a'blazing. Could've been killed by return fire but the police, after a long standoff, handled it peacefully. No dead asshole.
That this is so black and white to some, just beyond me.