Evolution v. Creationism Debate

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  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 9,888
    arq said:

    I'm pretty sure JWPearl is just trolling.

    Actually, I don't think so, but that's okay too.
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • arq said:

    I'm pretty sure JWPearl is just trolling.

    JWPearl can make whatever statement he/she wants to.
    It is nice that his/her opinion is given on this thread that allows us to all have a discussion.
    Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not. Both ideas are overwhelming. AE
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 26,906
    Just wondering why you say that, arq? There have been what to mind mind anyway seem like some rather strange opinions here (and I don't mind that- differing opinions keep things interesting and remind me to check my own thoughts) but nothing I would call "trolling".
    “Finding beauty in a broken world is creating beauty in the world we find.”
    -Terry Tempest Williams
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.






  • hedonisthedonist standing on the edge of foreverPosts: 19,530

    arq said:

    I'm pretty sure JWPearl is just trolling.

    Actually, I don't think so, but that's okay too.
    Agreed. Just wish there was a bit more explanation than quoting verses. Genuinely interested but hard to get past such (maybe self-perceived) limits.

  • arqarq Posts: 7,855
    brianlux said:

    Just wondering why you say that, arq? There have been what to mind mind anyway seem like some rather strange opinions here (and I don't mind that- differing opinions keep things interesting and remind me to check my own thoughts) but nothing I would call "trolling".

    I said it because of the way JWPearl dismisses arguments by others, it seems more like stirring the pot than having a conversation.
    "The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it"
    Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Why not (V) (°,,,,°) (V) ?
  • arq said:

    brianlux said:

    Just wondering why you say that, arq? There have been what to mind mind anyway seem like some rather strange opinions here (and I don't mind that- differing opinions keep things interesting and remind me to check my own thoughts) but nothing I would call "trolling".

    I said it because of the way JWPearl dismisses arguments by others, it seems more like stirring the pot than having a conversation.
    Cut the chum not your thumb.
    Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not. Both ideas are overwhelming. AE
  • RSRRSR British Columbia, CanadaPosts: 36
    callen said:



    Religion doesn't hold the patent in morality.

    There is morality without god.

    Now have watched some nature programs and been blown away and have questioned how this all started and some design???? But I know the Bible is not the answer or any other religious texts..........wait maybe Joseph's Smiths book?

    If you want to challenge yourself watch Your Inner Fish.

    Yes, there is morality without God. Jesus recognizes that directly in Matthew 5, so I'm not sure why any Christian would start an argument using morality as a premise. The issue is whether morality is best understood from an evolutionary perspective. I think we can get the "what" of morality from evolutionary studies, but it leaves the "why" of morality in subjective abstraction.

    And yes that does bring up the question of the exclusivity of Jesus. But I would argue (adamantly) that it doesn't, or at least shouldn't bring up the exclusivity of the religion that bears his name. The two are often at odds, which is ironic. I see it especially now days, with Christians hunkering down in defence mode with their hands clasped over their ears as if they yell loud enough, people will start listening. It'll never happen. Evangelism all in all is silly to me. Some of if just makes me angry. I'm not interested in converting people either. To me, religion is religion. It's all rules and rituals designed to either make you a better person or get you things you want (cars, a new job with good benefits, virgins in heaven, whatever). I was done with it a long time ago.

    And that's one reason why Jesus is so compelling to me. This was a guy to absolutely lamb basted the religious leaders of his day, and called out the whole system of religious activity for what it is: a man-made sham.
    I've been a Pearl Jam fan since I was 13 (1992!) and first heard Ament's opening to Jeremy on the radio. My only regret: I didn't join the ten club. To this day, Pearl Jam continues to inspire and challenge me to not just be better, but to be great.
  • arqarq Posts: 7,855

    arq said:

    brianlux said:

    Just wondering why you say that, arq? There have been what to mind mind anyway seem like some rather strange opinions here (and I don't mind that- differing opinions keep things interesting and remind me to check my own thoughts) but nothing I would call "trolling".

    I said it because of the way JWPearl dismisses arguments by others, it seems more like stirring the pot than having a conversation.
    Cut the chum not your thumb.
    I didn't grew up here in the states, so i have to google what that phrase means :-? (not joking)
    "The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it"
    Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Why not (V) (°,,,,°) (V) ?
  • hedonisthedonist standing on the edge of foreverPosts: 19,530
    RSR said:

    callen said:



    Religion doesn't hold the patent in morality.

    There is morality without god.

    Now have watched some nature programs and been blown away and have questioned how this all started and some design???? But I know the Bible is not the answer or any other religious texts..........wait maybe Joseph's Smiths book?

    If you want to challenge yourself watch Your Inner Fish.

    Yes, there is morality without God. Jesus recognizes that directly in Matthew 5, so I'm not sure why any Christian would start an argument using morality as a premise. The issue is whether morality is best understood from an evolutionary perspective. I think we can get the "what" of morality from evolutionary studies, but it leaves the "why" of morality in subjective abstraction.

    And yes that does bring up the question of the exclusivity of Jesus. But I would argue (adamantly) that it doesn't, or at least shouldn't bring up the exclusivity of the religion that bears his name. The two are often at odds, which is ironic. I see it especially now days, with Christians hunkering down in defence mode with their hands clasped over their ears as if they yell loud enough, people will start listening. It'll never happen. Evangelism all in all is silly to me. Some of if just makes me angry. I'm not interested in converting people either. To me, religion is religion. It's all rules and rituals designed to either make you a better person or get you things you want (cars, a new job with good benefits, virgins in heaven, whatever). I was done with it a long time ago.

    And that's one reason why Jesus is so compelling to me. This was a guy to absolutely lamb basted the religious leaders of his day, and called out the whole system of religious activity for what it is: a man-made sham.
    Really appreciate this post...thank you.

    Not that it means much, but you're alright by me.
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 11,865
    arq said:

    I'm pretty sure JWPearl is just trolling.

    Not at all, that's just JW.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    rgambs said:

    just a reminder....

    "We live in a society exquisitely dependent on science and technology, in which hardly anyone knows anything about science and technology." - Carl Sagan

    Godfather.

    JWPearl said:

    And dinosaurs existed and we're destroyed in the flood because the bible talks of sea monsters even dying

    Do you not believe in the process known as carbon dating?
    I don't think carbon dating is 100% or even 80% accurate is it ? seems I recall some carbon dating being off by at least 10,000 years pluse but I'm not real sure .

    Godfather.

    Carbon dating is only used for samples that were once alive and are less than approximately 50 to 60 thousand years old, as after that amount of time the half life of carbon14 is spent and there will be none left to measure, it will all ha e converted back to nitrogen. Other datings, in the millions or billions of years, are done with various forms of radiometric dating, which deal still with the predictable radioactive decay of isotopes of elements like Argon and Uranium.
    There are many factors which contribute to inaccuracies in the dating process of specific samples, but the overall picture is overwhelmingly accurate.
    This site is hilarious/appalling in that it uses very specific scientific processes and facts as evidence to come to extremely ridiculous conclusions that are disproved by the very evidence it accepts. That was a bad sentence. Nonetheless this is the bullshit that one has to watch out for in pseudosciences.
    http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c007.html
    thanks.

    Godfather.

    it dosen't matter to me what a man dose for a living you understand..
    as long as his interest's don't conflict with mine.
  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 12,504

    just a reminder....

    "We live in a society exquisitely dependent on science and technology, in which hardly anyone knows anything about science and technology." - Carl Sagan

    Godfather.

    JWPearl said:

    And dinosaurs existed and we're destroyed in the flood because the bible talks of sea monsters even dying

    Do you not believe in the process known as carbon dating?
    I don't think carbon dating is 100% or even 80% accurate is it ? seems I recall some carbon dating being off by at least 10,000 years pluse but I'm not real sure .

    Godfather.

    Quoting random celebrities does not equate to wisdom nor truth. It's pretty much worthless, to be perfectly honest.

    So, carbon dating can be off by up to 10,000 years? That means, according to JW's theory of creation, it can be wrong up to 4,000 years before the earth was created! How does that work again? Lol, yes, carbon dating is, as someone else said, used in relatively recent discoveries. Fossils are dated using radio dating. Which has a very large window, probably what you were thinking of. But in relative terms, 10,000 is nothing when dealing in millions of years.


    "Quoting random celebrities does not equate to wisdom nor truth. It's pretty much worthless, to be perfectly honest"....yes sir, I couldn't agree with you more but I think over all it was a pretty good statement and that's why I used it.
    and not being any kind of a scince geek (meant a respectfull way) I welcome the info given thank you.

    Godfather.

    it dosen't matter to me what a man dose for a living you understand..
    as long as his interest's don't conflict with mine.
  • callencallen Posts: 6,388
    RSR said:

    callen said:



    Religion doesn't hold the patent in morality.

    There is morality without god.

    Now have watched some nature programs and been blown away and have questioned how this all started and some design???? But I know the Bible is not the answer or any other religious texts..........wait maybe Joseph's Smiths book?

    If you want to challenge yourself watch Your Inner Fish.

    Yes, there is morality without God. Jesus recognizes that directly in Matthew 5, so I'm not sure why any Christian would start an argument using morality as a premise. The issue is whether morality is best understood from an evolutionary perspective. I think we can get the "what" of morality from evolutionary studies, but it leaves the "why" of morality in subjective abstraction.

    And yes that does bring up the question of the exclusivity of Jesus. But I would argue (adamantly) that it doesn't, or at least shouldn't bring up the exclusivity of the religion that bears his name. The two are often at odds, which is ironic. I see it especially now days, with Christians hunkering down in defence mode with their hands clasped over their ears as if they yell loud enough, people will start listening. It'll never happen. Evangelism all in all is silly to me. Some of if just makes me angry. I'm not interested in converting people either. To me, religion is religion. It's all rules and rituals designed to either make you a better person or get you things you want (cars, a new job with good benefits, virgins in heaven, whatever). I was done with it a long time ago.

    And that's one reason why Jesus is so compelling to me. This was a guy to absolutely lamb basted the religious leaders of his day, and called out the whole system of religious activity for what it is: a man-made sham.
    What or why? Not why??? Religion doesn't own the why either. Can watch monkeys and dogs and see morality. And know the why, to get along.

    Would also counter religion doesn't make one a better person, in any respect. One should do good or be moral without the fear instilled. Religion offers an excuse for ones actions.

    Yes you are being very careful to not sound judgmental and some may like this gentle approach but Christianity is not kind. It is not all loving and it is based on old fable book. All those that don't accept Jc burn in hell. Right? Or does one pick and choose what one wants to believe.

    Christianity/bible makes no logical sense. Period. Get why it's popular but bad for society. We can do better.
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • RSRRSR British Columbia, CanadaPosts: 36
    edited December 2014
    callen said:

    RSR said:

    callen said:


    What or why? Not why??? Religion doesn't own the why either. Can watch monkeys and dogs and see morality. And know the why, to get along.

    Would also counter religion doesn't make one a better person, in any respect. One should do good or be moral without the fear instilled. Religion offers an excuse for ones actions.

    Yes you are being very careful to not sound judgmental and some may like this gentle approach but Christianity is not kind. It is not all loving and it is based on old fable book. All those that don't accept Jc burn in hell. Right? Or does one pick and choose what one wants to believe.

    Christianity/bible makes no logical sense. Period. Get why it's popular but bad for society. We can do better.
    Religion is not a hill I'll die on. Religion tries to make you a better person from the outside-in, and it fails. There are examples of people in all sorts of religions who transcended their own traditions and value systems to make the world better. But it wasn't their religion that got them there. They became who they are in spite of their religion, every time.

    Burning in Hell has little to do with whether or not we accept some information or ascent to something intellectually. That's how it's been framed for a long time, and it's not the whole picture. The intellectual part of faith is often the last thing to catch up to our hearts. For example, We have an experience of bigness or something ethereal happens in our lives, and our heart immediately wells up. Our brains then start trying to categorize and make sense of it all. Sometimes we just can't, but it doesn't mean it isn't real.

    Here's how I think the whole sin and hell thing works, in two examples:

    Someone who can never control their anger will wind up being completely defined by that very anger. This is the essence of sin. How sin usually gets framed is "things we think are bad ... Like smoking, drinking, dancing (?)", but that's not right. It's better understood as things that hurt ourselves, or other people in some way. My dad smoked for 40 years. Now the effects are starting to show, and it's painful to watch. His past is now hurting him, and his kids who have to helplessly watch. I have uncles whose marriages and family lives are ruined because they chose the bottle over their kids one time too many.

    But you don't have sin without forgiveness. Forgiveness is essentially the thing a person does when they decide to let go of the pain another person has caused them. In choosing to forgive, we acknowledge that there is a price to the pain caused to us, and we choose to absorb it instead of holding it against the other person.

    And now hell ... Consider that a person who is always grumbling or complaining will at some point become defined by their own grumbling and negativity. Now imagine if that never stops. They go to the grave, wake up to find they are somehow still alive, and they just continue on as usual ... Forever. Eventually the humanity will be stripped right out of them and they'll be nothing more than the grumble. Some people can get damn close to that right now.

    What I'm saying is, christian can talk about not wanting to go to hell after they die, but that misses the point. Christianity is really about the heaven and hell that's right here on earth right now. The Christian bible paints a vivid picture of both heaven and hell as not things limited to some spacey afterworld. They are present realities that extend out into time infinitely.
    I've been a Pearl Jam fan since I was 13 (1992!) and first heard Ament's opening to Jeremy on the radio. My only regret: I didn't join the ten club. To this day, Pearl Jam continues to inspire and challenge me to not just be better, but to be great.
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 18,021
    Correct me if I am wrong, as I haven't opened a bible in about 30 years, but I actually recall someone telling me there is no literal mention of hell in the bible, which is why many christians do not believe in it.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 26,906

    Correct me if I am wrong, as I haven't opened a bible in about 30 years, but I actually recall someone telling me there is no literal mention of hell in the bible, which is why many christians do not believe in it.

    I'd never heard that before and did a little looking on-line and it appears you may be correct! We'll I'll be damned!
    But maybe not... if there is no such place as hell!

    Here's an interesting article on the subject.

    http://www.thehypertexts.com/no hell in the bible.htm

    “Finding beauty in a broken world is creating beauty in the world we find.”
    -Terry Tempest Williams
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.






  • Last-12-ExitLast-12-Exit Charleston, SCPosts: 8,661
    Heaven and hell are completely man made entities.
    Jealousy is ugly.
    Elistist Fucking Asshole.

    Mine is mine and yours won't take its place.

    Noblesville 8-17-98
    Jacksonville 11-25-12 EV
    Charlotte 10-30-13
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 11,865


    Most of the lore of heaven, hell, the "war in heaven", and angels comes from writers like Milton and Dante.
    brianlux said:

    Correct me if I am wrong, as I haven't opened a bible in about 30 years, but I actually recall someone telling me there is no literal mention of hell in the bible, which is why many christians do not believe in it.

    I'd never heard that before and did a little looking on-line and it appears you may be correct! We'll I'll be damned!
    But maybe not... if there is no such place as hell!

    Here's an interesting article on the subject.

    http://www.thehypertexts.com/no hell in the bible.htm

    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • RSRRSR British Columbia, CanadaPosts: 36
    rgambs said:



    Most of the lore of heaven, hell, the "war in heaven", and angels comes from writers like Milton and Dante.

    I think Dante's inferno is the most prevalent.
    I've been a Pearl Jam fan since I was 13 (1992!) and first heard Ament's opening to Jeremy on the radio. My only regret: I didn't join the ten club. To this day, Pearl Jam continues to inspire and challenge me to not just be better, but to be great.
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 18,021

    Heaven and hell are completely man made entities.

    agreed.

  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 11,865
    RSR said:

    rgambs said:



    Most of the lore of heaven, hell, the "war in heaven", and angels comes from writers like Milton and Dante.

    I think Dante's inferno is the most prevalent.
    Paradise Lost is one of the greatest literary works ever. Dante is a translation so until I learn Italian I can't properly judge it.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • PJfanwillneverleave1PJfanwillneverleave1 Posts: 12,885
    edited December 2014
    .
    Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not. Both ideas are overwhelming. AE
  • RSR said:

    callen said:

    RSR said:

    callen said:


    What or why? Not why??? Religion doesn't own the why either. Can watch monkeys and dogs and see morality. And know the why, to get along.

    Would also counter religion doesn't make one a better person, in any respect. One should do good or be moral without the fear instilled. Religion offers an excuse for ones actions.

    Yes you are being very careful to not sound judgmental and some may like this gentle approach but Christianity is not kind. It is not all loving and it is based on old fable book. All those that don't accept Jc burn in hell. Right? Or does one pick and choose what one wants to believe.

    Christianity/bible makes no logical sense. Period. Get why it's popular but bad for society. We can do better.
    Religion is not a hill I'll die on. Religion tries to make you a better person from the outside-in, and it fails. There are examples of people in all sorts of religions who transcended their own traditions and value systems to make the world better. But it wasn't their religion that got them there. They became who they are in spite of their religion, every time.

    Burning in Hell has little to do with whether or not we accept some information or ascent to something intellectually. That's how it's been framed for a long time, and it's not the whole picture. The intellectual part of faith is often the last thing to catch up to our hearts. For example, We have an experience of bigness or something ethereal happens in our lives, and our heart immediately wells up. Our brains then start trying to categorize and make sense of it all. Sometimes we just can't, but it doesn't mean it isn't real.

    Here's how I think the whole sin and hell thing works, in two examples:

    Someone who can never control their anger will wind up being completely defined by that very anger. This is the essence of sin. How sin usually gets framed is "things we think are bad ... Like smoking, drinking, dancing (?)", but that's not right. It's better understood as things that hurt ourselves, or other people in some way. My dad smoked for 40 years. Now the effects are starting to show, and it's painful to watch. His past is now hurting him, and his kids who have to helplessly watch. I have uncles whose marriages and family lives are ruined because they chose the bottle over their kids one time too many.

    But you don't have sin without forgiveness. Forgiveness is essentially the thing a person does when they decide to let go of the pain another person has caused them. In choosing to forgive, we acknowledge that there is a price to the pain caused to us, and we choose to absorb it instead of holding it against the other person.

    And now hell ... Consider that a person who is always grumbling or complaining will at some point become defined by their own grumbling and negativity. Now imagine if that never stops. They go to the grave, wake up to find they are somehow still alive, and they just continue on as usual ... Forever. Eventually the humanity will be stripped right out of them and they'll be nothing more than the grumble. Some people can get damn close to that right now.

    What I'm saying is, christian can talk about not wanting to go to hell after they die, but that misses the point. Christianity is really about the heaven and hell that's right here on earth right now. The Christian bible paints a vivid picture of both heaven and hell as not things limited to some spacey afterworld. They are present realities that extend out into time infinitely.

    On your personal opinion of Sin - Could you please provide your opinion of why Christians believe humans are born in sin? To the person who says I was born in sin or a sinner I say fuck off (not you literally) but to the idiot thing called god that would cast that awful judgement upon a newborn, it's so sad it's sickening.

    On your point of Hell - I really don't understand.
    Spacey afterworld? - there is not an afterworld
    Present realities that extend out into time infinitely - yes , they are called the laws of the universe.

    Nothing you describe in your opinion of hell is interchangeable.
    Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not. Both ideas are overwhelming. AE
  • Last-12-ExitLast-12-Exit Charleston, SCPosts: 8,661
    Even when I went to church as a teenager, I had a problem with being born in sin. I actually heard a preacher say that if a new born dies before it is baptized, it would go to hell. How fucked up is that?
    Jealousy is ugly.
    Elistist Fucking Asshole.

    Mine is mine and yours won't take its place.

    Noblesville 8-17-98
    Jacksonville 11-25-12 EV
    Charlotte 10-30-13
  • callencallen Posts: 6,388

    Even when I went to church as a teenager, I had a problem with being born in sin. I actually heard a preacher say that if a new born dies before it is baptized, it would go to hell. How fucked up is that?

    Right!

    And let's not forget god knows majority of worlds population won't be Christians so all those are also going to hell. So what like 15 % of his creations guaranteed to go to hell. Mean god, mean.
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • Even when I went to church as a teenager, I had a problem with being born in sin. I actually heard a preacher say that if a new born dies before it is baptized, it would go to hell. How fucked up is that?

    You should thank that preacher immensely for saying something so fucked up that it provided a reality path for your brain to come to
    Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not. Both ideas are overwhelming. AE
  • Last-12-ExitLast-12-Exit Charleston, SCPosts: 8,661

    Even when I went to church as a teenager, I had a problem with being born in sin. I actually heard a preacher say that if a new born dies before it is baptized, it would go to hell. How fucked up is that?

    You should thank that preacher immensely for saying something so fucked up that it provided a reality path for your brain to come to
    Lol. That was just one of 50 things that turned me off of religion.
    Jealousy is ugly.
    Elistist Fucking Asshole.

    Mine is mine and yours won't take its place.

    Noblesville 8-17-98
    Jacksonville 11-25-12 EV
    Charlotte 10-30-13
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 18,021

    Even when I went to church as a teenager, I had a problem with being born in sin. I actually heard a preacher say that if a new born dies before it is baptized, it would go to hell. How fucked up is that?

    You should thank that preacher immensely for saying something so fucked up that it provided a reality path for your brain to come to
    totally. that was one of several points that made me think "WTF???".

  • hedonisthedonist standing on the edge of foreverPosts: 19,530
    Digging this thread on all fronts.

    Just look at that crowd - all of them, every single one of us :)


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