Evolution v. Creationism Debate

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  • Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not. Both ideas are overwhelming. AE
  • RSRRSR British Columbia, CanadaPosts: 36
    Honestly, if a person believes that Barney the dinosaur is the salvation of the world and it's turning them into a terrible person, talk with them about the terrible person part.

    And then be a better person yourself, or you won't have a leg to stand on.

    Talk about what they believe about beliefs. Don't give in to the distraction of arguing about religion. It's a trap. The argument itself will become the problem, and will probably perpetuate any bad blood rather than sort it out the way you want.

    It's also interesting to see the cynicism here, and the limitations of forums. Because I am a gentle person by nature, and because I'm just being me on a forum. it's brought into question as "marketing" because no one here actually knows me. Not that I put any weight on this ... I'm not crying into my pillow over it. It's just interesting.

    Anyway, peace out. It's been a fun discussion.

    I've been a Pearl Jam fan since I was 13 (1992!) and first heard Ament's opening to Jeremy on the radio. My only regret: I didn't join the ten club. To this day, Pearl Jam continues to inspire and challenge me to not just be better, but to be great.
  • hedonisthedonist standing on the edge of foreverPosts: 19,527
    RSR said:

    And then be a better person yourself, or you won't have a leg to stand on.

    This, for me, is what it boils down to.

    Just BE a better person. A decent one.

    Decency shouldn't need to be defined, but I understand there are gradations at the least, and distortions at the worst.

    To be kind, compassionate (not to be confused with naivete), without thoughts of reward or repercussion beyond our own conscience.

    Anyway back to you, RSR...I've appreciated your input overall. It's interesting, and a perspective that's made me think.

    Peace back in whenever you want; I, for one, would welcome it.

  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 26,903
    Nicely said, RSR and Hedo.

    Not being PC here or anywhere else on this thread- that's not my m.o. - just being honest like the rest of you good folks.

    Peace, all.
    “Finding beauty in a broken world is creating beauty in the world we find.”
    -Terry Tempest Williams
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.






  • riotgrl said:

    We've discussed the Creation Museum in Kentucky before so I thought some of you might be interested in listening to this debate that is happening this evening. Here is a link where you can listen live:

    wfpl.org/post/watch-ken-ham-bill-nye-creationismevolution-debate-here

    Bill Nye the Science Guy vs. Ken Ham the founder (creator ;) ) of the Creation museum.

    Hi OP

    Just want to make sure that I am debating the topic not the person.
    So I would like to post this
    http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=richard+dawkins+creation&FORM=VIRE2#view=detail&mid=4FD3BC448CD577A52F7E4FD3BC448CD577A52F7E
    Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not. Both ideas are overwhelming. AE
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 11,864
    RSR said:

    Honestly, if a person believes that Barney the dinosaur is the salvation of the world and it's turning them into a terrible person, talk with them about the terrible person part.

    And then be a better person yourself, or you won't have a leg to stand on.

    Talk about what they believe about beliefs. Don't give in to the distraction of arguing about religion. It's a trap. The argument itself will become the problem, and will probably perpetuate any bad blood rather than sort it out the way you want.

    It's also interesting to see the cynicism here, and the limitations of forums. Because I am a gentle person by nature, and because I'm just being me on a forum. it's brought into question as "marketing" because no one here actually knows me. Not that I put any weight on this ... I'm not crying into my pillow over it. It's just interesting.

    Anyway, peace out. It's been a fun discussion.

    I agree with you but I think, as some people have pointed out, you cant separate the "be a good person" from the religion of those with strong beliefs and therefore have to debate the religion in the end. Those with aanythng approaching, and well short of, fundamental religious beliefs derive their morality from their religion as opposed to deriving it from the principles of kindness and compassion without thought of reward or punishment, as Hedobot and the rest of us secularists do. You often can't convince the devout that it IS being a better person to be accepting of those who are homosexual, those who like to get a buzz now and then, or those who don't pray to their god. At the core, when you debate a person, you are debating the foundation of a persons opinions and not the opinions themselves, that's where progress is made.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • callencallen Posts: 6,388
    edited December 2014
    RSR said:

    Honestly, if a person believes that Barney the dinosaur is the salvation of the world and it's turning them into a terrible person, talk with them about the terrible person part.

    And then be a better person yourself, or you won't have a leg to stand on.


    Regardless if it makes them good person or not if they believe in Barney or zombies they should be told it's BS.

    Being a good person is being honest. Not challenging idiotic beliefs and allowing these completely fictitious beliefs to continue is not being a better person. Those that allow have no leg to stand on.

    Believing in gods, prayers, religious books needs to be firmly challenged.

    In addition it's very liberating to be done with these beliefs. Taking responsibilities for ones successes and failures. Journey, but once your there, true nirvana/peace.

    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • hedonisthedonist standing on the edge of foreverPosts: 19,527
    callen said:

    RSR said:

    Honestly, if a person believes that Barney the dinosaur is the salvation of the world and it's turning them into a terrible person, talk with them about the terrible person part.

    And then be a better person yourself, or you won't have a leg to stand on.


    Regardless if it makes them good person or not if they believe in Barney or zombies they should be told it's BS.

    Being a good person is being honest. Not challenging idiotic beliefs and allowing these completely fictitious beliefs to continue is not being a better person. Those that allow have no leg to stand on.

    Believing in gods, prayers, religious books needs to be firmly challenged.

    In addition it's very liberating to be done with these beliefs. Taking responsibilities for ones successes and failures. Journey, but once your there, true nirvana/peace.

    To challenge is fine - healthy, even - but unless the freedom/quality of life of others are affected, it's not my place to tell anyone else what they're "allowed" to believe.

    Liberation can be so personal, too. Our means - the journey, as you said - can bring peace in itself.
  • callencallen Posts: 6,388
    hedonist said:

    callen said:

    RSR said:

    Honestly, if a person believes that Barney the dinosaur is the salvation of the world and it's turning them into a terrible person, talk with them about the terrible person part.

    And then be a better person yourself, or you won't have a leg to stand on.


    Regardless if it makes them good person or not if they believe in Barney or zombies they should be told it's BS.

    Being a good person is being honest. Not challenging idiotic beliefs and allowing these completely fictitious beliefs to continue is not being a better person. Those that allow have no leg to stand on.

    Believing in gods, prayers, religious books needs to be firmly challenged.

    In addition it's very liberating to be done with these beliefs. Taking responsibilities for ones successes and failures. Journey, but once your there, true nirvana/peace.

    To challenge is fine - healthy, even - but unless the freedom/quality of life of others are affected, it's not my place to tell anyone else what they're "allowed" to believe.

    Liberation can be so personal, too. Our means - the journey, as you said - can bring peace in itself.
    Oh but Christianity is not all loving kind and gentle as RSR portrays. It does hurt. Takes away your rights. Dumbs down society. Stymies science And should we not as a society progress from ghosts and goblins and understand the facts of our universe.

    It is a disservice to society to allow this foolishness to continue.
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • hedonisthedonist standing on the edge of foreverPosts: 19,527
    I think there are factions within all religions that deviate from kindness. Hell, even toss aside religion - within all groups of anything.

    I'm just acknowledging that not ALL Christians impose their beliefs on others.

    Hope this analogy makes sense, but to me it's similar to countries...dislike the government, respect the individuals.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 26,903
    I'm not what you would describe as a religious person but for a number of reasons, I don't find it useful to suggest we throw out religion altogether or be overly critical of those who profess faith.

    First of all, because no matter how strong a logical argument one makes for religion being a fantasy or merely a product of human make-believe (and I understand those arguments), religions will always be a part of human activity- always have been, always will.


    Secondly, not everyone takes they easy way out like I do (though the road TO that conclusion was neither short nor easy) which is to accept that the things we cannot understand scientifically and the things that feel "spiritual" to us are mysterious and to be OK with seeing them as mystery. Others have a greater need to find something more solid to hinge these things upon- thus, religion.

    And thirdly, despite the many evil, harmful and atrocious acts brought on in the name of religion (like most wars, etc.) I believe it is also useful to look at the beneficial things people of faith have accomplished. There are many such people who have done great work in promoting and working for excellent causes such as justice, freedom and equality. Look at the work of people like people like Desmond Tutu Anglican Bishop/social rights activist ), Jim Wallis (protestant Christian/ peace and social justice advocate), Rami Nashashibi (Muslim, director of the Inner-City Muslim Action Network/community organizer, justice advocate), Rev. Frank Schaefer (United Methodist pastor who works to support same-sex marriage), and one of my favorites- Wendell Berry/Advocate of Christian pacifism, environmental activist, social critic.

    And lets not forget the atheists. Kurt Vonnegut Jr.- one of our greatest writers: atheist/social critic.

    In all these cases (even Vonnegut only I can't quite figure out how to explain why I believe this) the terrific work all of these people and many more have done was at least in part driven by their faith. I don't think you can dismiss that.

    “Finding beauty in a broken world is creating beauty in the world we find.”
    -Terry Tempest Williams
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.






  • riotgrlriotgrl LOUISVILLEPosts: 1,867

    riotgrl said:

    We've discussed the Creation Museum in Kentucky before so I thought some of you might be interested in listening to this debate that is happening this evening. Here is a link where you can listen live:

    wfpl.org/post/watch-ken-ham-bill-nye-creationismevolution-debate-here

    Bill Nye the Science Guy vs. Ken Ham the founder (creator ;) ) of the Creation museum.

    Hi OP

    Just want to make sure that I am debating the topic not the person.
    So I would like to post this
    http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=richard+dawkins+creation&FORM=VIRE2#view=detail&mid=4FD3BC448CD577A52F7E4FD3BC448CD577A52F7E
    You don't need to convince me, I am firmly on the side of evolution in this debate :)
    Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?

    Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...

    I AM MINE
  • Last-12-ExitLast-12-Exit Charleston, SCPosts: 8,661
    brianlux said:

    I'm not what you would describe as a religious person but for a number of reasons, I don't find it useful to suggest we throw out religion altogether or be overly critical of those who profess faith.

    First of all, because no matter how strong a logical argument one makes for religion being a fantasy or merely a product of human make-believe (and I understand those arguments), religions will always be a part of human activity- always have been, always will.


    Secondly, not everyone takes they easy way out like I do (though the road TO that conclusion was neither short nor easy) which is to accept that the things we cannot understand scientifically and the things that feel "spiritual" to us are mysterious and to be OK with seeing them as mystery. Others have a greater need to find something more solid to hinge these things upon- thus, religion.

    And thirdly, despite the many evil, harmful and atrocious acts brought on in the name of religion (like most wars, etc.) I believe it is also useful to look at the beneficial things people of faith have accomplished. There are many such people who have done great work in promoting and working for excellent causes such as justice, freedom and equality. Look at the work of people like people like Desmond Tutu Anglican Bishop/social rights activist ), Jim Wallis (protestant Christian/ peace and social justice advocate), Rami Nashashibi (Muslim, director of the Inner-City Muslim Action Network/community organizer, justice advocate), Rev. Frank Schaefer (United Methodist pastor who works to support same-sex marriage), and one of my favorites- Wendell Berry/Advocate of Christian pacifism, environmental activist, social critic.

    And lets not forget the atheists. Kurt Vonnegut Jr.- one of our greatest writers: atheist/social critic.

    In all these cases (even Vonnegut only I can't quite figure out how to explain why I believe this) the terrific work all of these people and many more have done was at least in part driven by their faith. I don't think you can dismiss that.

    I understand your sentiments. The question I have is would the people you mentioned above still have the same views and still be good people if religion wasn't a factor? Would Kurt Vonnegut still be an excellent writer if there was no such thing as religion and he wasn't labeled an atheist? Would Wendell Berry still be a pacifist if he wasn't apart of a Christian organization?

    I know you wrote that their faith influenced them, but I say they could still be great without the religious overtones.
    Jealousy is ugly.
    Elistist Fucking Asshole.

    Mine is mine and yours won't take its place.

    Noblesville 8-17-98
    Jacksonville 11-25-12 EV
    Charlotte 10-30-13
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 46,807
    JWPearl said:

    Well I'd say 6000-7000 years, because 1000years the bibles equivalent of 1 day of Gods and he took 6 days for him to create things and on the 7th day he rested which is for us now, he's still resting you could say if you want to look at it that way,
    2 peter 3:8

    Are you just fucking with everyone JW?
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 26,903

    brianlux said:

    I'm not what you would describe as a religious person but for a number of reasons, I don't find it useful to suggest we throw out religion altogether or be overly critical of those who profess faith.

    First of all, because no matter how strong a logical argument one makes for religion being a fantasy or merely a product of human make-believe (and I understand those arguments), religions will always be a part of human activity- always have been, always will.


    Secondly, not everyone takes they easy way out like I do (though the road TO that conclusion was neither short nor easy) which is to accept that the things we cannot understand scientifically and the things that feel "spiritual" to us are mysterious and to be OK with seeing them as mystery. Others have a greater need to find something more solid to hinge these things upon- thus, religion.

    And thirdly, despite the many evil, harmful and atrocious acts brought on in the name of religion (like most wars, etc.) I believe it is also useful to look at the beneficial things people of faith have accomplished. There are many such people who have done great work in promoting and working for excellent causes such as justice, freedom and equality. Look at the work of people like people like Desmond Tutu Anglican Bishop/social rights activist ), Jim Wallis (protestant Christian/ peace and social justice advocate), Rami Nashashibi (Muslim, director of the Inner-City Muslim Action Network/community organizer, justice advocate), Rev. Frank Schaefer (United Methodist pastor who works to support same-sex marriage), and one of my favorites- Wendell Berry/Advocate of Christian pacifism, environmental activist, social critic.

    And lets not forget the atheists. Kurt Vonnegut Jr.- one of our greatest writers: atheist/social critic.

    In all these cases (even Vonnegut only I can't quite figure out how to explain why I believe this) the terrific work all of these people and many more have done was at least in part driven by their faith. I don't think you can dismiss that.

    I understand your sentiments. The question I have is would the people you mentioned above still have the same views and still be good people if religion wasn't a factor? Would Kurt Vonnegut still be an excellent writer if there was no such thing as religion and he wasn't labeled an atheist? Would Wendell Berry still be a pacifist if he wasn't apart of a Christian organization?

    I know you wrote that their faith influenced them, but I say they could still be great without the religious overtones.
    That's a good question but I'm afraid it's one only Tralfamadorians are likely to be able to answer! Haha!

    But the things is that for most if not all of those people, their faith is an integral part of who they are and what they do. And of course there are many great people who have done great and wonderful things who do not profess any particular religion or who are atheists- people from a wide spectrum like Edward Abbey, Henry Rollins, Amy Goodman, Derrick Jensen and on and on. Mix all those good religious and non-religious people together and you have a great bunch of people.

    I guess what I'm saying is, I'm not in a hurry to dismiss people for their faith or lack thereof. As long as a person's faith is a personal belief and not one they claim I must own, I'm good with that.

    It's like the good cop/bad cop thing. Yes, there is widespread corruption in police forces and I believe that generally there is a lot of change needing to take place in law enforcement or we'll end up in a police state. But I'm not, as you know, about to call all cops "bad". No way. Same deal with religious people. Religions have done massive amounts of harm and many changes that way would be great but that doesn't make all people of faith bad or harmful.
    “Finding beauty in a broken world is creating beauty in the world we find.”
    -Terry Tempest Williams
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.






  • PJfanwillneverleave1PJfanwillneverleave1 Posts: 12,885
    edited December 2014
    brianlux said:

    brianlux said:

    I'm not what you would describe as a religious person but for a number of reasons, I don't find it useful to suggest we throw out religion altogether or be overly critical of those who profess faith.

    First of all, because no matter how strong a logical argument one makes for religion being a fantasy or merely a product of human make-believe (and I understand those arguments), religions will always be a part of human activity- always have been, always will.


    Secondly, not everyone takes they easy way out like I do (though the road TO that conclusion was neither short nor easy) which is to accept that the things we cannot understand scientifically and the things that feel "spiritual" to us are mysterious and to be OK with seeing them as mystery. Others have a greater need to find something more solid to hinge these things upon- thus, religion.

    And thirdly, despite the many evil, harmful and atrocious acts brought on in the name of religion (like most wars, etc.) I believe it is also useful to look at the beneficial things people of faith have accomplished. There are many such people who have done great work in promoting and working for excellent causes such as justice, freedom and equality. Look at the work of people like people like Desmond Tutu Anglican Bishop/social rights activist ), Jim Wallis (protestant Christian/ peace and social justice advocate), Rami Nashashibi (Muslim, director of the Inner-City Muslim Action Network/community organizer, justice advocate), Rev. Frank Schaefer (United Methodist pastor who works to support same-sex marriage), and one of my favorites- Wendell Berry/Advocate of Christian pacifism, environmental activist, social critic.

    And lets not forget the atheists. Kurt Vonnegut Jr.- one of our greatest writers: atheist/social critic.

    In all these cases (even Vonnegut only I can't quite figure out how to explain why I believe this) the terrific work all of these people and many more have done was at least in part driven by their faith. I don't think you can dismiss that.

    I understand your sentiments. The question I have is would the people you mentioned above still have the same views and still be good people if religion wasn't a factor? Would Kurt Vonnegut still be an excellent writer if there was no such thing as religion and he wasn't labeled an atheist? Would Wendell Berry still be a pacifist if he wasn't apart of a Christian organization?

    I know you wrote that their faith influenced them, but I say they could still be great without the religious overtones.
    That's a good question but I'm afraid it's one only Tralfamadorians are likely to be able to answer! Haha!

    But the things is that for most if not all of those people, their faith is an integral part of who they are and what they do. And of course there are many great people who have done great and wonderful things who do not profess any particular religion or who are atheists- people from a wide spectrum like Edward Abbey, Henry Rollins, Amy Goodman, Derrick Jensen and on and on. Mix all those good religious and non-religious people together and you have a great bunch of people.

    I guess what I'm saying is, I'm not in a hurry to dismiss people for their faith or lack thereof. As long as a person's faith is a personal belief and not one they claim I must own, I'm good with that.

    It's like the good cop/bad cop thing. Yes, there is widespread corruption in police forces and I believe that generally there is a lot of change needing to take place in law enforcement or we'll end up in a police state. But I'm not, as you know, about to call all cops "bad". No way. Same deal with religious people. Religions have done massive amounts of harm and many changes that way would be great but that doesn't make all people of faith bad or harmful.
    No one is dismissing anyone for their faith or lack thereof. The unfaithful seem to know what is going on that's all.
    Post edited by PJfanwillneverleave1 on
    Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not. Both ideas are overwhelming. AE
  • I think it's been awhile since some have watched this.
    Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not. Both ideas are overwhelming. AE
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 26,903

    brianlux said:

    brianlux said:

    I'm not what you would describe as a religious person but for a number of reasons, I don't find it useful to suggest we throw out religion altogether or be overly critical of those who profess faith.

    First of all, because no matter how strong a logical argument one makes for religion being a fantasy or merely a product of human make-believe (and I understand those arguments), religions will always be a part of human activity- always have been, always will.


    Secondly, not everyone takes they easy way out like I do (though the road TO that conclusion was neither short nor easy) which is to accept that the things we cannot understand scientifically and the things that feel "spiritual" to us are mysterious and to be OK with seeing them as mystery. Others have a greater need to find something more solid to hinge these things upon- thus, religion.

    And thirdly, despite the many evil, harmful and atrocious acts brought on in the name of religion (like most wars, etc.) I believe it is also useful to look at the beneficial things people of faith have accomplished. There are many such people who have done great work in promoting and working for excellent causes such as justice, freedom and equality. Look at the work of people like people like Desmond Tutu Anglican Bishop/social rights activist ), Jim Wallis (protestant Christian/ peace and social justice advocate), Rami Nashashibi (Muslim, director of the Inner-City Muslim Action Network/community organizer, justice advocate), Rev. Frank Schaefer (United Methodist pastor who works to support same-sex marriage), and one of my favorites- Wendell Berry/Advocate of Christian pacifism, environmental activist, social critic.

    And lets not forget the atheists. Kurt Vonnegut Jr.- one of our greatest writers: atheist/social critic.

    In all these cases (even Vonnegut only I can't quite figure out how to explain why I believe this) the terrific work all of these people and many more have done was at least in part driven by their faith. I don't think you can dismiss that.

    I understand your sentiments. The question I have is would the people you mentioned above still have the same views and still be good people if religion wasn't a factor? Would Kurt Vonnegut still be an excellent writer if there was no such thing as religion and he wasn't labeled an atheist? Would Wendell Berry still be a pacifist if he wasn't apart of a Christian organization?

    I know you wrote that their faith influenced them, but I say they could still be great without the religious overtones.
    That's a good question but I'm afraid it's one only Tralfamadorians are likely to be able to answer! Haha!

    But the things is that for most if not all of those people, their faith is an integral part of who they are and what they do. And of course there are many great people who have done great and wonderful things who do not profess any particular religion or who are atheists- people from a wide spectrum like Edward Abbey, Henry Rollins, Amy Goodman, Derrick Jensen and on and on. Mix all those good religious and non-religious people together and you have a great bunch of people.

    I guess what I'm saying is, I'm not in a hurry to dismiss people for their faith or lack thereof. As long as a person's faith is a personal belief and not one they claim I must own, I'm good with that.

    It's like the good cop/bad cop thing. Yes, there is widespread corruption in police forces and I believe that generally there is a lot of change needing to take place in law enforcement or we'll end up in a police state. But I'm not, as you know, about to call all cops "bad". No way. Same deal with religious people. Religions have done massive amounts of harm and many changes that way would be great but that doesn't make all people of faith bad or harmful.
    No one is dismissing anyone for their faith or lack thereof. The unfaithful seem to know what is going on that's all.
    I agree that there are a lot of aspects of all faiths that seem really far fetched to me which is why I don't follow any religion. But do you really believe that because they don't follow a faith, the unfaithful know what's going on? What, like all of them? And you don't think there are people of faith who know what's going on? That's interesting. I'll have to take that up with Mr. Berry next time I see him. image

    “Finding beauty in a broken world is creating beauty in the world we find.”
    -Terry Tempest Williams
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.






  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 26,903

    I think it's been awhile since some have watched this.

    Ha! Yes, one of the best music vids ever!

    “Finding beauty in a broken world is creating beauty in the world we find.”
    -Terry Tempest Williams
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.






  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom'sPosts: 8,364
    When I realized that the reason we embalm people and bury them in caskets in the ground is so that their bodies will be around for the rapture I about shit myself.

    I really believe that society would advance without religion. It is a manufactured way to divide people.
    Remember the Thomas Nine!! (10/02/2018)

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  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 18,021

    When I realized that the reason we embalm people and bury them in caskets in the ground is so that their bodies will be around for the rapture I about shit myself.

    I really believe that society would advance without religion. It is a manufactured way to divide people.

    that's fucked.

  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 46,807
    edited December 2014
    brianlux said:

    brianlux said:

    brianlux said:

    I'm not what you would describe as a religious person but for a number of reasons, I don't find it useful to suggest we throw out religion altogether or be overly critical of those who profess faith.

    First of all, because no matter how strong a logical argument one makes for religion being a fantasy or merely a product of human make-believe (and I understand those arguments), religions will always be a part of human activity- always have been, always will.


    Secondly, not everyone takes they easy way out like I do (though the road TO that conclusion was neither short nor easy) which is to accept that the things we cannot understand scientifically and the things that feel "spiritual" to us are mysterious and to be OK with seeing them as mystery. Others have a greater need to find something more solid to hinge these things upon- thus, religion.

    And thirdly, despite the many evil, harmful and atrocious acts brought on in the name of religion (like most wars, etc.) I believe it is also useful to look at the beneficial things people of faith have accomplished. There are many such people who have done great work in promoting and working for excellent causes such as justice, freedom and equality. Look at the work of people like people like Desmond Tutu Anglican Bishop/social rights activist ), Jim Wallis (protestant Christian/ peace and social justice advocate), Rami Nashashibi (Muslim, director of the Inner-City Muslim Action Network/community organizer, justice advocate), Rev. Frank Schaefer (United Methodist pastor who works to support same-sex marriage), and one of my favorites- Wendell Berry/Advocate of Christian pacifism, environmental activist, social critic.

    And lets not forget the atheists. Kurt Vonnegut Jr.- one of our greatest writers: atheist/social critic.

    In all these cases (even Vonnegut only I can't quite figure out how to explain why I believe this) the terrific work all of these people and many more have done was at least in part driven by their faith. I don't think you can dismiss that.

    I understand your sentiments. The question I have is would the people you mentioned above still have the same views and still be good people if religion wasn't a factor? Would Kurt Vonnegut still be an excellent writer if there was no such thing as religion and he wasn't labeled an atheist? Would Wendell Berry still be a pacifist if he wasn't apart of a Christian organization?

    I know you wrote that their faith influenced them, but I say they could still be great without the religious overtones.
    That's a good question but I'm afraid it's one only Tralfamadorians are likely to be able to answer! Haha!

    But the things is that for most if not all of those people, their faith is an integral part of who they are and what they do. And of course there are many great people who have done great and wonderful things who do not profess any particular religion or who are atheists- people from a wide spectrum like Edward Abbey, Henry Rollins, Amy Goodman, Derrick Jensen and on and on. Mix all those good religious and non-religious people together and you have a great bunch of people.

    I guess what I'm saying is, I'm not in a hurry to dismiss people for their faith or lack thereof. As long as a person's faith is a personal belief and not one they claim I must own, I'm good with that.

    It's like the good cop/bad cop thing. Yes, there is widespread corruption in police forces and I believe that generally there is a lot of change needing to take place in law enforcement or we'll end up in a police state. But I'm not, as you know, about to call all cops "bad". No way. Same deal with religious people. Religions have done massive amounts of harm and many changes that way would be great but that doesn't make all people of faith bad or harmful.
    No one is dismissing anyone for their faith or lack thereof. The unfaithful seem to know what is going on that's all.
    I agree that there are a lot of aspects of all faiths that seem really far fetched to me which is why I don't follow any religion. But do you really believe that because they don't follow a faith, the unfaithful know what's going on? What, like all of them? And you don't think there are people of faith who know what's going on? That's interesting. I'll have to take that up with Mr. Berry next time I see him. image

    Well, If God doesn't exist, then yes, the atheists pretty much know what's going on (as far as science has allowed us so far, anyway), and the religious seriously don't - they're way the fuck off. If God does exist, then religious people still don't know Wtf is going on, since they still couldn't know the true nature of God, but they'd know a lot more than the Atheists.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Last-12-ExitLast-12-Exit Charleston, SCPosts: 8,661
    PJ_Soul said:

    brianlux said:

    brianlux said:

    brianlux said:

    I'm not what you would describe as a religious person but for a number of reasons, I don't find it useful to suggest we throw out religion altogether or be overly critical of those who profess faith.

    First of all, because no matter how strong a logical argument one makes for religion being a fantasy or merely a product of human make-believe (and I understand those arguments), religions will always be a part of human activity- always have been, always will.


    Secondly, not everyone takes they easy way out like I do (though the road TO that conclusion was neither short nor easy) which is to accept that the things we cannot understand scientifically and the things that feel "spiritual" to us are mysterious and to be OK with seeing them as mystery. Others have a greater need to find something more solid to hinge these things upon- thus, religion.

    And thirdly, despite the many evil, harmful and atrocious acts brought on in the name of religion (like most wars, etc.) I believe it is also useful to look at the beneficial things people of faith have accomplished. There are many such people who have done great work in promoting and working for excellent causes such as justice, freedom and equality. Look at the work of people like people like Desmond Tutu Anglican Bishop/social rights activist ), Jim Wallis (protestant Christian/ peace and social justice advocate), Rami Nashashibi (Muslim, director of the Inner-City Muslim Action Network/community organizer, justice advocate), Rev. Frank Schaefer (United Methodist pastor who works to support same-sex marriage), and one of my favorites- Wendell Berry/Advocate of Christian pacifism, environmental activist, social critic.

    And lets not forget the atheists. Kurt Vonnegut Jr.- one of our greatest writers: atheist/social critic.

    In all these cases (even Vonnegut only I can't quite figure out how to explain why I believe this) the terrific work all of these people and many more have done was at least in part driven by their faith. I don't think you can dismiss that.

    I understand your sentiments. The question I have is would the people you mentioned above still have the same views and still be good people if religion wasn't a factor? Would Kurt Vonnegut still be an excellent writer if there was no such thing as religion and he wasn't labeled an atheist? Would Wendell Berry still be a pacifist if he wasn't apart of a Christian organization?

    I know you wrote that their faith influenced them, but I say they could still be great without the religious overtones.
    That's a good question but I'm afraid it's one only Tralfamadorians are likely to be able to answer! Haha!

    But the things is that for most if not all of those people, their faith is an integral part of who they are and what they do. And of course there are many great people who have done great and wonderful things who do not profess any particular religion or who are atheists- people from a wide spectrum like Edward Abbey, Henry Rollins, Amy Goodman, Derrick Jensen and on and on. Mix all those good religious and non-religious people together and you have a great bunch of people.

    I guess what I'm saying is, I'm not in a hurry to dismiss people for their faith or lack thereof. As long as a person's faith is a personal belief and not one they claim I must own, I'm good with that.

    It's like the good cop/bad cop thing. Yes, there is widespread corruption in police forces and I believe that generally there is a lot of change needing to take place in law enforcement or we'll end up in a police state. But I'm not, as you know, about to call all cops "bad". No way. Same deal with religious people. Religions have done massive amounts of harm and many changes that way would be great but that doesn't make all people of faith bad or harmful.
    No one is dismissing anyone for their faith or lack thereof. The unfaithful seem to know what is going on that's all.
    I agree that there are a lot of aspects of all faiths that seem really far fetched to me which is why I don't follow any religion. But do you really believe that because they don't follow a faith, the unfaithful know what's going on? What, like all of them? And you don't think there are people of faith who know what's going on? That's interesting. I'll have to take that up with Mr. Berry next time I see him. image

    Well, If God doesn't exist, then yes, the atheists pretty much know what's going on (as far as science has allowed us so far, anyway), and the religious seriously don't - they're way the fuck off. If God does exist, then religious people still don't know Wtf is going on, since they still couldn't know the true nature of God, but they'd know a lot more than the Atheists.
    Is it really about who knew more? I wonder if somehow it could be proven there was a god, how many atheists would convert? I have always said show me evidence and I'll drop to my knees where a stand. Then again, having concrete evidence would take away the number one thing religious people rely on- faith.
    Jealousy is ugly.
    Elistist Fucking Asshole.

    Mine is mine and yours won't take its place.

    Noblesville 8-17-98
    Jacksonville 11-25-12 EV
    Charlotte 10-30-13
  • PJ_Soul said:

    brianlux said:

    brianlux said:

    brianlux said:

    I'm not what you would describe as a religious person but for a number of reasons, I don't find it useful to suggest we throw out religion altogether or be overly critical of those who profess faith.

    First of all, because no matter how strong a logical argument one makes for religion being a fantasy or merely a product of human make-believe (and I understand those arguments), religions will always be a part of human activity- always have been, always will.


    Secondly, not everyone takes they easy way out like I do (though the road TO that conclusion was neither short nor easy) which is to accept that the things we cannot understand scientifically and the things that feel "spiritual" to us are mysterious and to be OK with seeing them as mystery. Others have a greater need to find something more solid to hinge these things upon- thus, religion.

    And thirdly, despite the many evil, harmful and atrocious acts brought on in the name of religion (like most wars, etc.) I believe it is also useful to look at the beneficial things people of faith have accomplished. There are many such people who have done great work in promoting and working for excellent causes such as justice, freedom and equality. Look at the work of people like people like Desmond Tutu Anglican Bishop/social rights activist ), Jim Wallis (protestant Christian/ peace and social justice advocate), Rami Nashashibi (Muslim, director of the Inner-City Muslim Action Network/community organizer, justice advocate), Rev. Frank Schaefer (United Methodist pastor who works to support same-sex marriage), and one of my favorites- Wendell Berry/Advocate of Christian pacifism, environmental activist, social critic.

    And lets not forget the atheists. Kurt Vonnegut Jr.- one of our greatest writers: atheist/social critic.

    In all these cases (even Vonnegut only I can't quite figure out how to explain why I believe this) the terrific work all of these people and many more have done was at least in part driven by their faith. I don't think you can dismiss that.

    I understand your sentiments. The question I have is would the people you mentioned above still have the same views and still be good people if religion wasn't a factor? Would Kurt Vonnegut still be an excellent writer if there was no such thing as religion and he wasn't labeled an atheist? Would Wendell Berry still be a pacifist if he wasn't apart of a Christian organization?

    I know you wrote that their faith influenced them, but I say they could still be great without the religious overtones.
    That's a good question but I'm afraid it's one only Tralfamadorians are likely to be able to answer! Haha!

    But the things is that for most if not all of those people, their faith is an integral part of who they are and what they do. And of course there are many great people who have done great and wonderful things who do not profess any particular religion or who are atheists- people from a wide spectrum like Edward Abbey, Henry Rollins, Amy Goodman, Derrick Jensen and on and on. Mix all those good religious and non-religious people together and you have a great bunch of people.

    I guess what I'm saying is, I'm not in a hurry to dismiss people for their faith or lack thereof. As long as a person's faith is a personal belief and not one they claim I must own, I'm good with that.

    It's like the good cop/bad cop thing. Yes, there is widespread corruption in police forces and I believe that generally there is a lot of change needing to take place in law enforcement or we'll end up in a police state. But I'm not, as you know, about to call all cops "bad". No way. Same deal with religious people. Religions have done massive amounts of harm and many changes that way would be great but that doesn't make all people of faith bad or harmful.
    No one is dismissing anyone for their faith or lack thereof. The unfaithful seem to know what is going on that's all.
    I agree that there are a lot of aspects of all faiths that seem really far fetched to me which is why I don't follow any religion. But do you really believe that because they don't follow a faith, the unfaithful know what's going on? What, like all of them? And you don't think there are people of faith who know what's going on? That's interesting. I'll have to take that up with Mr. Berry next time I see him. image

    Well, If God doesn't exist, then yes, the atheists pretty much know what's going on (as far as science has allowed us so far, anyway), and the religious seriously don't - they're way the fuck off. If God does exist, then religious people still don't know Wtf is going on, since they still couldn't know the true nature of God, but they'd know a lot more than the Atheists.
    Is it really about who knew more? I wonder if somehow it could be proven there was a god, how many atheists would convert? I have always said show me evidence and I'll drop to my knees where a stand. Then again, having concrete evidence would take away the number one thing religious people rely on- faith.
    It would be fucking scary to know that this thing called god is real and all that he is done is true.
    fuck me
    Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not. Both ideas are overwhelming. AE
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 26,903
    PJ_Soul said:

    brianlux said:

    brianlux said:

    brianlux said:

    I'm not what you would describe as a religious person but for a number of reasons, I don't find it useful to suggest we throw out religion altogether or be overly critical of those who profess faith.

    First of all, because no matter how strong a logical argument one makes for religion being a fantasy or merely a product of human make-believe (and I understand those arguments), religions will always be a part of human activity- always have been, always will.


    Secondly, not everyone takes they easy way out like I do (though the road TO that conclusion was neither short nor easy) which is to accept that the things we cannot understand scientifically and the things that feel "spiritual" to us are mysterious and to be OK with seeing them as mystery. Others have a greater need to find something more solid to hinge these things upon- thus, religion.

    And thirdly, despite the many evil, harmful and atrocious acts brought on in the name of religion (like most wars, etc.) I believe it is also useful to look at the beneficial things people of faith have accomplished. There are many such people who have done great work in promoting and working for excellent causes such as justice, freedom and equality. Look at the work of people like people like Desmond Tutu Anglican Bishop/social rights activist ), Jim Wallis (protestant Christian/ peace and social justice advocate), Rami Nashashibi (Muslim, director of the Inner-City Muslim Action Network/community organizer, justice advocate), Rev. Frank Schaefer (United Methodist pastor who works to support same-sex marriage), and one of my favorites- Wendell Berry/Advocate of Christian pacifism, environmental activist, social critic.

    And lets not forget the atheists. Kurt Vonnegut Jr.- one of our greatest writers: atheist/social critic.

    In all these cases (even Vonnegut only I can't quite figure out how to explain why I believe this) the terrific work all of these people and many more have done was at least in part driven by their faith. I don't think you can dismiss that.

    I understand your sentiments. The question I have is would the people you mentioned above still have the same views and still be good people if religion wasn't a factor? Would Kurt Vonnegut still be an excellent writer if there was no such thing as religion and he wasn't labeled an atheist? Would Wendell Berry still be a pacifist if he wasn't apart of a Christian organization?

    I know you wrote that their faith influenced them, but I say they could still be great without the religious overtones.
    That's a good question but I'm afraid it's one only Tralfamadorians are likely to be able to answer! Haha!

    But the things is that for most if not all of those people, their faith is an integral part of who they are and what they do. And of course there are many great people who have done great and wonderful things who do not profess any particular religion or who are atheists- people from a wide spectrum like Edward Abbey, Henry Rollins, Amy Goodman, Derrick Jensen and on and on. Mix all those good religious and non-religious people together and you have a great bunch of people.

    I guess what I'm saying is, I'm not in a hurry to dismiss people for their faith or lack thereof. As long as a person's faith is a personal belief and not one they claim I must own, I'm good with that.

    It's like the good cop/bad cop thing. Yes, there is widespread corruption in police forces and I believe that generally there is a lot of change needing to take place in law enforcement or we'll end up in a police state. But I'm not, as you know, about to call all cops "bad". No way. Same deal with religious people. Religions have done massive amounts of harm and many changes that way would be great but that doesn't make all people of faith bad or harmful.
    No one is dismissing anyone for their faith or lack thereof. The unfaithful seem to know what is going on that's all.
    I agree that there are a lot of aspects of all faiths that seem really far fetched to me which is why I don't follow any religion. But do you really believe that because they don't follow a faith, the unfaithful know what's going on? What, like all of them? And you don't think there are people of faith who know what's going on? That's interesting. I'll have to take that up with Mr. Berry next time I see him. image

    Well, If God doesn't exist, then yes, the atheists pretty much know what's going on (as far as science has allowed us so far, anyway), and the religious seriously don't - they're way the fuck off. If God does exist, then religious people still don't know Wtf is going on, since they still couldn't know the true nature of God, but they'd know a lot more than the Atheists.
    Shit, I don't know if there's a god or not... although my cat seems to there there (she) is. :-)

    My comments were not meant to validity the existence or lack there of of a god but rather to refute that all people of faith are clueless. I know some very excellent people who believe in a god who are not at all what I would term clueless. A statement made previously here claims that such people "don't know what's going on" and that non-believers do. Besides being vague as hell, that statement seems unjustly dismissive of a lot of damn good people. I just don't buy it.

    But, err, I think were were talking about evolution vs creationism so, sorry to derail.

    “Finding beauty in a broken world is creating beauty in the world we find.”
    -Terry Tempest Williams
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.






  • callencallen Posts: 6,388
    brianlux said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    brianlux said:

    brianlux said:

    brianlux said:

    I'm not what you would describe as a religious person but for a number of reasons, I don't find it useful to suggest we throw out religion altogether or be overly critical of those who profess faith.

    First of all, because no matter how strong a logical argument one makes for religion being a fantasy or merely a product of human make-believe (and I understand those arguments), religions will always be a part of human activity- always have been, always will.


    Secondly, not everyone takes they easy way out like I do (though the road TO that conclusion was neither short nor easy) which is to accept that the things we cannot understand scientifically and the things that feel "spiritual" to us are mysterious and to be OK with seeing them as mystery. Others have a greater need to find something more solid to hinge these things upon- thus, religion.

    And thirdly, despite the many evil, harmful and atrocious acts brought on in the name of religion (like most wars, etc.) I believe it is also useful to look at the beneficial things people of faith have accomplished. There are many such people who have done great work in promoting and working for excellent causes such as justice, freedom and equality. Look at the work of people like people like Desmond Tutu Anglican Bishop/social rights activist ), Jim Wallis (protestant Christian/ peace and social justice advocate), Rami Nashashibi (Muslim, director of the Inner-City Muslim Action Network/community organizer, justice advocate), Rev. Frank Schaefer (United Methodist pastor who works to support same-sex marriage), and one of my favorites- Wendell Berry/Advocate of Christian pacifism, environmental activist, social critic.

    And lets not forget the atheists. Kurt Vonnegut Jr.- one of our greatest writers: atheist/social critic.

    In all these cases (even Vonnegut only I can't quite figure out how to explain why I believe this) the terrific work all of these people and many more have done was at least in part driven by their faith. I don't think you can dismiss that.

    I understand your sentiments. The question I have is would the people you mentioned above still have the same views and still be good people if religion wasn't a factor? Would Kurt Vonnegut still be an excellent writer if there was no such thing as religion and he wasn't labeled an atheist? Would Wendell Berry still be a pacifist if he wasn't apart of a Christian organization?

    I know you wrote that their faith influenced them, but I say they could still be great without the religious overtones.
    That's a good question but I'm afraid it's one only Tralfamadorians are likely to be able to answer! Haha!

    But the things is that for most if not all of those people, their faith is an integral part of who they are and what they do. And of course there are many great people who have done great and wonderful things who do not profess any particular religion or who are atheists- people from a wide spectrum like Edward Abbey, Henry Rollins, Amy Goodman, Derrick Jensen and on and on. Mix all those good religious and non-religious people together and you have a great bunch of people.

    I guess what I'm saying is, I'm not in a hurry to dismiss people for their faith or lack thereof. As long as a person's faith is a personal belief and not one they claim I must own, I'm good with that.

    It's like the good cop/bad cop thing. Yes, there is widespread corruption in police forces and I believe that generally there is a lot of change needing to take place in law enforcement or we'll end up in a police state. But I'm not, as you know, about to call all cops "bad". No way. Same deal with religious people. Religions have done massive amounts of harm and many changes that way would be great but that doesn't make all people of faith bad or harmful.
    No one is dismissing anyone for their faith or lack thereof. The unfaithful seem to know what is going on that's all.
    I agree that there are a lot of aspects of all faiths that seem really far fetched to me which is why I don't follow any religion. But do you really believe that because they don't follow a faith, the unfaithful know what's going on? What, like all of them? And you don't think there are people of faith who know what's going on? That's interesting. I'll have to take that up with Mr. Berry next time I see him. image

    Well, If God doesn't exist, then yes, the atheists pretty much know what's going on (as far as science has allowed us so far, anyway), and the religious seriously don't - they're way the fuck off. If God does exist, then religious people still don't know Wtf is going on, since they still couldn't know the true nature of God, but they'd know a lot more than the Atheists.
    Shit, I don't know if there's a god or not... although my cat seems to there there (she) is. :-)

    My comments were not meant to validity the existence or lack there of of a god but rather to refute that all people of faith are clueless. I know some very excellent people who believe in a god who are not at all what I would term clueless. A statement made previously here claims that such people "don't know what's going on" and that non-believers do. Besides being vague as hell, that statement seems unjustly dismissive of a lot of damn good people. I just don't buy it.

    But, err, I think were were talking about evolution vs creationism so, sorry to derail.

    Some of the most intelligent people I know believe. So no they aren't clueless. They seek the solace of something better.

    Now if it stayed there and they want to have that reassuring feeling fine.

    It's though a whole nother matter if they say they believe in fables and then those fables affect the rest of society, including school curriculum. And if someone believes in the rapture, Noah or the other impossible events as fact they need to be challenged.

    Also non believers are discriminated against and this can get really bad as believers truths are challenged and they do not like that.

    Praying doesn't work. There are no miracles. God is not just and Jesus didn't rise from the dead. Just putting these thoughts down on board gets very emotional responses, but why? It's okay to strongly challenge these beliefs and I feel humanity will be better once we get past need to believe in these tall tales.
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 46,807
    edited December 2014

    PJ_Soul said:

    brianlux said:

    brianlux said:



    I understand your sentiments. The question I have is would the people you mentioned above still have the same views and still be good people if religion wasn't a factor? Would Kurt Vonnegut still be an excellent writer if there was no such thing as religion and he wasn't labeled an atheist? Would Wendell Berry still be a pacifist if he wasn't apart of a Christian organization?

    I know you wrote that their faith influenced them, but I say they could still be great without the religious overtones.

    That's a good question but I'm afraid it's one only Tralfamadorians are likely to be able to answer! Haha!

    But the things is that for most if not all of those people, their faith is an integral part of who they are and what they do. And of course there are many great people who have done great and wonderful things who do not profess any particular religion or who are atheists- people from a wide spectrum like Edward Abbey, Henry Rollins, Amy Goodman, Derrick Jensen and on and on. Mix all those good religious and non-religious people together and you have a great bunch of people.

    I guess what I'm saying is, I'm not in a hurry to dismiss people for their faith or lack thereof. As long as a person's faith is a personal belief and not one they claim I must own, I'm good with that.

    It's like the good cop/bad cop thing. Yes, there is widespread corruption in police forces and I believe that generally there is a lot of change needing to take place in law enforcement or we'll end up in a police state. But I'm not, as you know, about to call all cops "bad". No way. Same deal with religious people. Religions have done massive amounts of harm and many changes that way would be great but that doesn't make all people of faith bad or harmful.
    No one is dismissing anyone for their faith or lack thereof. The unfaithful seem to know what is going on that's all.
    I agree that there are a lot of aspects of all faiths that seem really far fetched to me which is why I don't follow any religion. But do you really believe that because they don't follow a faith, the unfaithful know what's going on? What, like all of them? And you don't think there are people of faith who know what's going on? That's interesting. I'll have to take that up with Mr. Berry next time I see him. image

    Well, If God doesn't exist, then yes, the atheists pretty much know what's going on (as far as science has allowed us so far, anyway), and the religious seriously don't - they're way the fuck off. If God does exist, then religious people still don't know Wtf is going on, since they still couldn't know the true nature of God, but they'd know a lot more than the Atheists.
    Is it really about who knew more? I wonder if somehow it could be proven there was a god, how many atheists would convert? I have always said show me evidence and I'll drop to my knees where a stand. Then again, having concrete evidence would take away the number one thing religious people rely on- faith.
    It would be fucking scary to know that this thing called god is real and all that he is done is true.
    fuck me
    Well that's the thing, right?? If i found out God actually existed - if somehow proof was revealed - I would hate his fucking guts. I never understood why people love that guy so much... and the worse he is to people, the more they seem to love him. It's the definition of insanity.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • callencallen Posts: 6,388
    Funny.
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 26,903
    PJ_Soul said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    brianlux said:

    brianlux said:



    I understand your sentiments. The question I have is would the people you mentioned above still have the same views and still be good people if religion wasn't a factor? Would Kurt Vonnegut still be an excellent writer if there was no such thing as religion and he wasn't labeled an atheist? Would Wendell Berry still be a pacifist if he wasn't apart of a Christian organization?

    I know you wrote that their faith influenced them, but I say they could still be great without the religious overtones.

    That's a good question but I'm afraid it's one only Tralfamadorians are likely to be able to answer! Haha!

    But the things is that for most if not all of those people, their faith is an integral part of who they are and what they do. And of course there are many great people who have done great and wonderful things who do not profess any particular religion or who are atheists- people from a wide spectrum like Edward Abbey, Henry Rollins, Amy Goodman, Derrick Jensen and on and on. Mix all those good religious and non-religious people together and you have a great bunch of people.

    I guess what I'm saying is, I'm not in a hurry to dismiss people for their faith or lack thereof. As long as a person's faith is a personal belief and not one they claim I must own, I'm good with that.

    It's like the good cop/bad cop thing. Yes, there is widespread corruption in police forces and I believe that generally there is a lot of change needing to take place in law enforcement or we'll end up in a police state. But I'm not, as you know, about to call all cops "bad". No way. Same deal with religious people. Religions have done massive amounts of harm and many changes that way would be great but that doesn't make all people of faith bad or harmful.
    No one is dismissing anyone for their faith or lack thereof. The unfaithful seem to know what is going on that's all.
    I agree that there are a lot of aspects of all faiths that seem really far fetched to me which is why I don't follow any religion. But do you really believe that because they don't follow a faith, the unfaithful know what's going on? What, like all of them? And you don't think there are people of faith who know what's going on? That's interesting. I'll have to take that up with Mr. Berry next time I see him. image

    Well, If God doesn't exist, then yes, the atheists pretty much know what's going on (as far as science has allowed us so far, anyway), and the religious seriously don't - they're way the fuck off. If God does exist, then religious people still don't know Wtf is going on, since they still couldn't know the true nature of God, but they'd know a lot more than the Atheists.
    Is it really about who knew more? I wonder if somehow it could be proven there was a god, how many atheists would convert? I have always said show me evidence and I'll drop to my knees where a stand. Then again, having concrete evidence would take away the number one thing religious people rely on- faith.
    It would be fucking scary to know that this thing called god is real and all that he is done is true.
    fuck me
    Well that's the thing, right?? If i found out God actually existed - if somehow proof was revealed - I would hate his fucking guts. I never understood why people love that guy so much... and the worse he is to people, the more they seem to love him. It's the definition of insanity.
    Yeah, in that case I think this God (him/her/it) would have a bit of explaining to do. But God would probably have an explanation that would be so far different than anything any religion has ever come up with as to render them completely obsolete. Maybe God is waiting for humans to evolve to the point of being able to understand the meaning of that explanation.

    That, by the way, is a classic argument in favor of evolution.

    I think at this point, if I were to meet God I would tell him/her/it that I think this corner of creation has largely become a clusterfuck but thanks letting me stick around long enough to learn how to deal with it at which point I'm guessing God would say, "Bingo".

    I don't think there's a bearded guy in the sky. I think it's what we make of ourselves in a world that has run amok.



    “Finding beauty in a broken world is creating beauty in the world we find.”
    -Terry Tempest Williams
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.






  • brianlux said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    brianlux said:

    brianlux said:



    I understand your sentiments. The question I have is would the people you mentioned above still have the same views and still be good people if religion wasn't a factor? Would Kurt Vonnegut still be an excellent writer if there was no such thing as religion and he wasn't labeled an atheist? Would Wendell Berry still be a pacifist if he wasn't apart of a Christian organization?

    I know you wrote that their faith influenced them, but I say they could still be great without the religious overtones.

    That's a good question but I'm afraid it's one only Tralfamadorians are likely to be able to answer! Haha!

    But the things is that for most if not all of those people, their faith is an integral part of who they are and what they do. And of course there are many great people who have done great and wonderful things who do not profess any particular religion or who are atheists- people from a wide spectrum like Edward Abbey, Henry Rollins, Amy Goodman, Derrick Jensen and on and on. Mix all those good religious and non-religious people together and you have a great bunch of people.

    I guess what I'm saying is, I'm not in a hurry to dismiss people for their faith or lack thereof. As long as a person's faith is a personal belief and not one they claim I must own, I'm good with that.

    It's like the good cop/bad cop thing. Yes, there is widespread corruption in police forces and I believe that generally there is a lot of change needing to take place in law enforcement or we'll end up in a police state. But I'm not, as you know, about to call all cops "bad". No way. Same deal with religious people. Religions have done massive amounts of harm and many changes that way would be great but that doesn't make all people of faith bad or harmful.
    No one is dismissing anyone for their faith or lack thereof. The unfaithful seem to know what is going on that's all.
    I agree that there are a lot of aspects of all faiths that seem really far fetched to me which is why I don't follow any religion. But do you really believe that because they don't follow a faith, the unfaithful know what's going on? What, like all of them? And you don't think there are people of faith who know what's going on? That's interesting. I'll have to take that up with Mr. Berry next time I see him. image

    Well, If God doesn't exist, then yes, the atheists pretty much know what's going on (as far as science has allowed us so far, anyway), and the religious seriously don't - they're way the fuck off. If God does exist, then religious people still don't know Wtf is going on, since they still couldn't know the true nature of God, but they'd know a lot more than the Atheists.
    Is it really about who knew more? I wonder if somehow it could be proven there was a god, how many atheists would convert? I have always said show me evidence and I'll drop to my knees where a stand. Then again, having concrete evidence would take away the number one thing religious people rely on- faith.
    It would be fucking scary to know that this thing called god is real and all that he is done is true.
    fuck me
    Well that's the thing, right?? If i found out God actually existed - if somehow proof was revealed - I would hate his fucking guts. I never understood why people love that guy so much... and the worse he is to people, the more they seem to love him. It's the definition of insanity.
    God would probably have an explanation that would be so far different than anything any religion has ever come up with as to render them completely obsolete. Maybe God is waiting for humans to evolve to the point of being able to understand the meaning of that explanation.

    That, by the way, is a classic argument in favor of evolution.

    I don't get where you are going with this at all my friend. I have never heard that argument in favor of evolution presented as you have.

    If anything your explanation has given more points in favor of evolution.
    Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not. Both ideas are overwhelming. AE
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