Even when I went to church as a teenager, I had a problem with being born in sin. I actually heard a preacher say that if a new born dies before it is baptized, it would go to hell. How fucked up is that?
Right!
And let's not forget god knows majority of worlds population won't be Christians so all those are also going to hell. So what like 15 % of his creations guaranteed to go to hell. Mean god, mean.
And I always questioned what happened to those people who lived before Christianity was founded? Did they all die and go to hell? And how can anyone believe that the Christian denomination that they follow, that was started in the mid-1800s, is the only true path to salvation? And that everyone else, even other Christians, are wrong and will die and go to hell? When I heard someone say that one of my family members would go to hell because she wasn't the 'right' kind of Christian then I was done. I've always struggled with the inconsistencies that I recognized in religion but that was it for me. Those are some astoundingly naive beliefs. Not really sure how anyone can believe this is literally true.
Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
my brother and his wife told me that I will be going to infinite nothingness, and that they "feel sorry for me". I'm not close with my brother. I think it's hilarious that they believe that christianity, which is only 2000 years old, is the truth. God was feeling pretty fucking lazy for a long fucking time if that's the case.
my brother and his wife told me that I will be going to infinite nothingness, and that they "feel sorry for me". I'm not close with my brother. I think it's hilarious that they believe that christianity, which is only 2000 years old, is the truth. God was feeling pretty fucking lazy for a long fucking time if that's the case.
I get the "I pray for you everyday" and the "I hate to think I won't see you in heaven" weekly from my mom. She seriously thinks she failed as a mother because I "turned out the way I did." We can't talk politics or religion. She always ends up in tears because she refuses to believe that I don't believe in anything.
This recent discussion sounds like you've all had a brush-in with Calvinism. One of the major critiques of Calvinism from within the rest of Christianity is that Calvinism systematically miscategorizes biblical texts, making God into a moral monster. It's also given some Calvinists the idea that they have permission to act in kind. I think many of us have experienced the fruit of that. By the way, Calvinism isn't a denomination - it's a theological leaning. Not all Calvinists are the same, and not all believe everything that John Calvin taught.
I have one Calvinist friend who told me, "Helping people for the sake of helping is just like giving them sandwiches on the way to hell". A statement like that makes no reasonable sense when you claim to worship a God who died for the sake of all people. Unfortunately, it makes perfect sense to a person who has made a series of assumptions that places having correct beliefs at the very top. Plus, because Calvinisms' way of speaking about God and faith is very precise and rigid, it tends to attract people who want to be right about everything.
It still makes my stomach churn to hear stories from people who have had relatives and friends tell them they are going to hell because they stopped going to church, or stopped believing in a god that they honestly felt wasn't worth trusting in the first place.
Some context: One of the enduring ideas from the enlightenment (and protestant reformation) which has permeated the majority of Christian circles is that the Bible is meant to be a sort of legal document. So "Section A, article 12, line 6" has the exact same weight as "Section 345, article 18, line 57." This is why you get Christians passionately debating people on their various stances. They feel like because it says 'X' on page 33, and 'Y' on page 1045 that they suddenly have a rock solid case. But that isn't what it means to believe the Bible. It's just what a lot of people have been told, and what a lot of people have accepted (or rejected) without much questioning.
Post edited by RSR on
I've been a Pearl Jam fan since I was 13 and first heard Ament's opening to Jeremy on the radio. To this day, Pearl Jam continues to inspire and challenge me to not just be better, but to be great.
This recent discussion sounds like you've all had a brush-in with Calvinism. One of the major critiques of Calvinism from within the rest of Christianity is that Calvinism systematically miscategorizes biblical texts, making God into a moral monster. It's also given some Calvinists the idea that they have permission to act in kind. I think many of us have experienced the fruit of that. By the way, Calvinism isn't a denomination - it's a theological leaning. Not all Calvinists are the same, and not all believe everything that John Calvin taught.
I have one Calvinist friend who told me, "Helping people for the sake of helping is just like giving them sandwiches on the way to hell". A statement like that makes no reasonable sense when you claim to worship a God who died for the sake of all people. Unfortunately, it makes perfect sense to a person who has made a series of assumptions that places having correct beliefs at the very top. Plus, because Calvinisms' way of speaking about God and faith is very precise and rigid, it tends to attract people who want to be right about everything.
It still makes my stomach churn to hear stories from people who have had relatives and friends tell them they are going to hell because they stopped going to church, or stopped believing in a god that they honestly felt wasn't worth trusting in the first place.
Some context: One of the enduring ideas from the enlightenment (and protestant reformation) which has permeated the majority of Christian circles is that the Bible is meant to be a sort of legal document. So "Section A, article 12, line 6" has the exact same weight as "Section 345, article 18, line 57." This is why you get Christians passionately debating people on their various stances. They feel like because it says 'X' on page 33, and 'Y' on page 1045 that they suddenly have a rock solid case. But that isn't what it means to believe the Bible. It's just what a lot of people have been told, and what a lot of people have accepted (or rejected) without much questioning.
This recent discussion sounds like you've all had a brush-in with Calvinism. One of the major critiques of Calvinism from within the rest of Christianity is that Calvinism systematically miscategorizes biblical texts, making God into a moral monster.
but god is a moral monster "“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
I wish I could take credit for writing that but it belongs to someone else.
I grew up in a protestant home, tried the Jesus thing in the seventies and eventually decided I'm good with learning a little from all faiths but that ultimately what is beyond that which we know is pretty much Mystery. I like the concept of the mystery of the intangible. That said, I have respect for those who practice their faith, what ever it may be, when that faith is based on a desire to do good things, be loving, generous, kind, etc. RSR, you seem like that type.
I don't think we need to dump on people we don't agree with. Just saying.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
I grew up in a protestant home, tried the Jesus thing in the seventies and eventually decided I'm good with learning a little from all faiths but that ultimately what is beyond that which we know is pretty much Mystery. I like the concept of the mystery of the intangible. That said, I have respect for those who practice their faith, what ever it may be, when that faith is based on a desire to do good things, be loving, generous, kind, etc. RSR, you seem like that type.
I don't think we need to dump on people we don't agree with. Just saying.
In regards to your last sentence, I'm fine with people believing what they want. What I'm sick of is the people in my life insisting that I need god to be alive and to die.
It always amazes me that so many people believe in and trust in a benevolent being who in their world is so wonderful and loving. Yet is responsible for so many terrible things. Such as AIDS, Ebola, The Holocaust, Dick Cheney, and so much more.
I grew up in a protestant home, tried the Jesus thing in the seventies and eventually decided I'm good with learning a little from all faiths but that ultimately what is beyond that which we know is pretty much Mystery. I like the concept of the mystery of the intangible. That said, I have respect for those who practice their faith, what ever it may be, when that faith is based on a desire to do good things, be loving, generous, kind, etc. RSR, you seem like that type.
I don't think we need to dump on people we don't agree with. Just saying.
In regards to your last sentence, I'm fine with people believing what they want. What I'm sick of is the people in my life insisting that I need god to be alive and to die.
Well, that's where I draw the line as well. If you were to hang around me place you'd notice we don't get a lot of proselytizers at our door these days. [-(
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
I grew up in a protestant home, tried the Jesus thing in the seventies and eventually decided I'm good with learning a little from all faiths but that ultimately what is beyond that which we know is pretty much Mystery. I like the concept of the mystery of the intangible. That said, I have respect for those who practice their faith, what ever it may be, when that faith is based on a desire to do good things, be loving, generous, kind, etc. RSR, you seem like that type.
I don't think we need to dump on people we don't agree with. Just saying.
I grew up in a protestant home, tried the Jesus thing in the seventies and eventually decided I'm good with learning a little from all faiths but that ultimately what is beyond that which we know is pretty much Mystery. I like the concept of the mystery of the intangible. That said, I have respect for those who practice their faith, what ever it may be, when that faith is based on a desire to do good things, be loving, generous, kind, etc. RSR, you seem like that type.
I don't think we need to dump on people we don't agree with. Just saying.
In regards to your last sentence, I'm fine with people believing what they want. What I'm sick of is the people in my life insisting that I need god to be alive and to die.
And this too. Except for one close friend, I've never been preached to in that way by family or by others close to me. I wonder how different my perspective would be had I been.
However, when I was 20 or so, I had a co-worker go to HR claiming I was the devil and had an evil aura about me. That chick scared the hell out of me.
I grew up in a protestant home, tried the Jesus thing in the seventies and eventually decided I'm good with learning a little from all faiths but that ultimately what is beyond that which we know is pretty much Mystery. I like the concept of the mystery of the intangible. That said, I have respect for those who practice their faith, what ever it may be, when that faith is based on a desire to do good things, be loving, generous, kind, etc. RSR, you seem like that type.
I don't think we need to dump on people we don't agree with. Just saying.
In regards to your last sentence, I'm fine with people believing what they want. What I'm sick of is the people in my life insisting that I need god to be alive and to die.
And this too. Except for one close friend, I've never been preached to in that way by family or by others close to me. I wonder how different my perspective would be had I been.
However, when I was 20 or so, I had a co-worker go to HR claiming I was the devil and had an evil aura about me. That chick scared the hell out of me.
I grew up in a protestant home, tried the Jesus thing in the seventies and eventually decided I'm good with learning a little from all faiths but that ultimately what is beyond that which we know is pretty much Mystery. I like the concept of the mystery of the intangible. That said, I have respect for those who practice their faith, what ever it may be, when that faith is based on a desire to do good things, be loving, generous, kind, etc. RSR, you seem like that type.
I don't think we need to dump on people we don't agree with. Just saying.
In regards to your last sentence, I'm fine with people believing what they want. What I'm sick of is the people in my life insisting that I need god to be alive and to die.
And this too. Except for one close friend, I've never been preached to in that way by family or by others close to me. I wonder how different my perspective would be had I been.
However, when I was 20 or so, I had a co-worker go to HR claiming I was the devil and had an evil aura about me. That chick scared the hell out of me.
You evil hedonist you >:)
O:-)
(you'd think that innocent fucker up there would be right next to the devil one )
So is the problem the fact that people believe in a deity that is absolutely just and absolutely loving, or is it that some people take that idea of an absolutely just and loving deity, and put their own ideas of justice onto that deity?
Whenever I meet people who are aggressively against anything or deliberately apathetic, I have to wonder what's really in the driver's seat for them. Controlled anger is one thing, but hate is another. Sadness is one thing, but delibitating apathy is another.
Post edited by RSR on
I've been a Pearl Jam fan since I was 13 and first heard Ament's opening to Jeremy on the radio. To this day, Pearl Jam continues to inspire and challenge me to not just be better, but to be great.
So is the problem the fact that people believe in a deity that is absolutely just and absolutely loving, or is it that some people take that idea of an absolutely just and loving deity, and put their own ideas of justice onto that deity?
Whenever I meet people who are aggressively against anything or deliberately apathetic, I have to wonder what's really in the driver's seat for them. Controlled anger is one thing, but hate is another. Sadness is one thing, but deliberating apathy is another.
So is the problem the fact that people believe in a deity that is absolutely just and absolutely loving, or is it that some people take that idea of an absolutely just and loving deity, and put their own ideas of justice onto that deity?
Whenever I meet people who are aggressively against anything or deliberately apathetic, I have to wonder what's really in the driver's seat for them. Controlled anger is one thing, but hate is another. Sadness is one thing, but deliberating apathy is another.
Interesting question, RSR. I'll give it a go:
First of all, we're assuming that there is a deity that is not human contrived. That's a huge assumption. But let's say there is a deity besides the many humans have made up- how do we know that deity has any interest in being just or loving? What if that deity started up the universe and let it go on it's own just to see what happens? As far as our own ideas of justice- I'd be surprised if most of us here have a widely differing view of what justice is.
I'm with you on controlled anger and I was almost with you on the second paragraph but as I think about it, I believe there are times when being aggressively against something is not only OK, it's sometimes very much the right thing to do (defending a loved one or an innocent bystander, keeping your home secure, fighting for your freedom, etc.)
Hatred is a tough one. Who amongst us can say they have never hated something or someone? Sorry to say, I can't. The gang that used to terrorize me during lunch break in 7th grade? Yeah, I hated them. But yes, less hatred is always the best.
Did you mean "deliberating" or "debilitating" apathy? I don't recommend the latter but people with depression are sometimes that way. It doesn't make them bad.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Yeah brianlux, there's a lot to be said about situations where becoming violent might be an only option, or at least feels like it's the only and best option (I.e. Defending your family).
Good point about the depression thing. It can be debilitating (that's the word I was going for). I am talking more about the entitled "I don't care so stfu" attitude. I've experienced it in religious and non-religious people. It's just interesting ... If you dig around, there's usually something else informing that behaviour. Not alway, but often.
It's similar with habitually aggressive people. Maybe that's what I missed ... Habitual. There's a difference between someone who becomes violently protective when his family's safety is threatened, and someone who flies off the handle over disagreements in politics or philosophy or whatever. I see this second one in a lot of my conservative Christian friends. When I disagree with them, some of them get visibly shaken and they start in on the "you don't believe the bible anymore; are you really saved?" talk.
I laugh it off, and marvel at how asinine the whole religion thing can get.
I've been a Pearl Jam fan since I was 13 and first heard Ament's opening to Jeremy on the radio. To this day, Pearl Jam continues to inspire and challenge me to not just be better, but to be great.
Yeah brianlux, there's a lot to be said about situations where becoming violent might be an only option, or at least feels like it's the only and best option (I.e. Defending your family).
Good point about the depression thing. It can be debilitating (that's the word I was going for). I am talking more about the entitled "I don't care so stfu" attitude. I've experienced it in religious and non-religious people. It's just interesting ... If you dig around, there's usually something else informing that behaviour. Not alway, but often.
It's similar with habitually aggressive people. Maybe that's what I missed ... Habitual. There's a difference between someone who becomes violently protective when his family's safety is threatened, and someone who flies off the handle over disagreements in politics or philosophy or whatever. I see this second one in a lot of my conservative Christian friends. When I disagree with them, some of them get visibly shaken and they start in on the "you don't believe the bible anymore; are you really saved?" talk.
I laugh it off, and marvel at how asinine the whole religion thing can get.
"entitled 'I don't care so stfu' attitude"-- Yeah, I agree- I don't have time for that. I guess we generally don't see too much of that on the train- at least I don't think so.
"habitually aggressive people"-- pretty much agree there too though I can accept habitual aggression if vented like through art- like, say, some forms of jazz or hard core punk (although I like to mix all that in with all kinds of other music).
Just saw the movie Charlie Bartlett. I like it that the tough punk character Murphy Bivens who at first is total aggression turns out to be an OK guy with definitely redeeming characteristics. Always cool when you can turn a hot-head around a bit. I kind of had to go the other way from total geek to putting a little more fuel on the fire.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Yeah brianlux, there's a lot to be said about situations where becoming violent might be an only option, or at least feels like it's the only and best option (I.e. Defending your family).
Good point about the depression thing. It can be debilitating (that's the word I was going for). I am talking more about the entitled "I don't care so stfu" attitude. I've experienced it in religious and non-religious people. It's just interesting ... If you dig around, there's usually something else informing that behaviour. Not alway, but often.
I think that's the heart of it - there's usually something else informing human behaviour than what we see on the surface. With the more overtly difficult behaviours, I believe it's usually fear - and most often fear of others' opinions. Fear of being ridiculed, fear of being thought "weak" or "stupid" or laughable, fear of losing relationships or other things that are important to us, so we lash out in anger or we withdraw and pretend we don't care.
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
It always amazes me that so many people believe in and trust in a benevolent being who in their world is so wonderful and loving. Yet is responsible for so many terrible things. Such as AIDS, Ebola, The Holocaust, Dick Cheney, and so much more.
:-O
yeah, I think it's hilarious that god only loves certain people based on geography. fuck those africans! god bless 'murica!
I'm not being obtuse here but.......really, what's to debate.
Religion is simply a way of controlling the masses (or was, until the populous wised up). It's not based on fact......it's based on a fairy story. Just like any other fairy story it has a message.....the basic premise of which is; be kind to others. Nothing wrong with that. But don't try and tell me that one of the characters in this fairy story created the earth (and all living things within), other celestial beings, the universe etc etc. That's just silly!
And besides religion (or the type one follows) is simple geography. If you were born in Ireland, your most likely to be Catholic.....if you were born in the Middle East, you're more likely to be Muslim. Easter Island, some huge stone figures......etc etc.
Look I get that good is sometimes associated with religion and I have friends and family who I love that believe. I will continue to love and hang with them.
Now should we not though challenge this totally irrational belief system? This false hope and ability to not take responsibility for bad and good. Should we not call out the delusion? People believe they can pray and something will happen. They believe Adam and Eve created us all.
Feel it's our obligation to end this illogical way of coping and if we hurt feelings so be it. Pussyfooting around doesn't help. Not offending doesn't help.
If your relative started believing in Barney being real and affecting outcomes would you not interject? With gusto? Christianity is exactly the same thing.
Being PC continues this charade.
Yeah RSR is really good at marketing with warm non literal translation of Bible but it's still all BS and needs to be countered strongly.
I can't even talk about religion with my kids. My oldest, who is 13, has figured out but I don't think fully understands that I don't believe in anything. My wife simply thinks that I'd be a horrible dad to tell my 8 yr old my thoughts. And strike me dead if I stop lying to my kids and tell them about Santa clause.
Instilling the fear of god into children should be punished as child abuse.
I know what you are trying to say. I have always thought that raising a child and telling them you are catholic child - (insert any religion here) and this is what you will believe is tantamount to child abuse.
To go a bit further it is time I think that the bible, korans, whatever other religious books be placed into public libraries and schools for the soul (no pun intended) reason that Children should be taught that religion exists, just like greek mythology, ancient forelore etc and the bible should be on the same shelf in the library as all other books and be nothing more than a book to read at the library. But children should not be taught their beliefs.
I can't even talk about religion with my kids. My oldest, who is 13, has figured out but I don't think fully understands that I don't believe in anything. My wife simply thinks that I'd be a horrible dad to tell my 8 yr old my thoughts. And strike me dead if I stop lying to my kids and tell them about Santa clause.
I vaguely remember the day I discovered Santa was my parents. As far as I know my parents never really pushed to believe in santa, easter bunny and the tooth fairy they just came.
It is funny years later my mom still jokes with me and says santa will stop giving you a gift once you stop believing in him. Needless to say I get a "santa" gift each year.
Santa has me beat. I just can't teach or tell my kids santa isn't real.
My youngest (5) just lost his first tooth. So that fucking tooth fairy gave the kid $10. I was working nights that night. Had I been home, that tooth fairy would have gotten robbed! My first tooth was worth .50¢ and a new toothbrush!
Comments
And I always questioned what happened to those people who lived before Christianity was founded? Did they all die and go to hell? And how can anyone believe that the Christian denomination that they follow, that was started in the mid-1800s, is the only true path to salvation? And that everyone else, even other Christians, are wrong and will die and go to hell? When I heard someone say that one of my family members would go to hell because she wasn't the 'right' kind of Christian then I was done. I've always struggled with the inconsistencies that I recognized in religion but that was it for me. Those are some astoundingly naive beliefs. Not really sure how anyone can believe this is literally true.
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
I think it's hilarious that they believe that christianity, which is only 2000 years old, is the truth. God was feeling pretty fucking lazy for a long fucking time if that's the case.
www.headstonesband.com
We can't talk politics or religion. She always ends up in tears because she refuses to believe that I don't believe in anything.
I have one Calvinist friend who told me, "Helping people for the sake of helping is just like giving them sandwiches on the way to hell". A statement like that makes no reasonable sense when you claim to worship a God who died for the sake of all people. Unfortunately, it makes perfect sense to a person who has made a series of assumptions that places having correct beliefs at the very top. Plus, because Calvinisms' way of speaking about God and faith is very precise and rigid, it tends to attract people who want to be right about everything.
It still makes my stomach churn to hear stories from people who have had relatives and friends tell them they are going to hell because they stopped going to church, or stopped believing in a god that they honestly felt wasn't worth trusting in the first place.
Some context: One of the enduring ideas from the enlightenment (and protestant reformation) which has permeated the majority of Christian circles is that the Bible is meant to be a sort of legal document. So "Section A, article 12, line 6" has the exact same weight as "Section 345, article 18, line 57." This is why you get Christians passionately debating people on their various stances. They feel like because it says 'X' on page 33, and 'Y' on page 1045 that they suddenly have a rock solid case. But that isn't what it means to believe the Bible. It's just what a lot of people have been told, and what a lot of people have accepted (or rejected) without much questioning.
"“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
I wish I could take credit for writing that but it belongs to someone else.
calvinism, smalvinism, same shit different pile
I don't think we need to dump on people we don't agree with. Just saying.
:-O
However, when I was 20 or so, I had a co-worker go to HR claiming I was the devil and had an evil aura about me. That chick scared the hell out of me.
(you'd think that innocent fucker up there would be right next to the devil one
Whenever I meet people who are aggressively against anything or deliberately apathetic, I have to wonder what's really in the driver's seat for them. Controlled anger is one thing, but hate is another. Sadness is one thing, but delibitating apathy is another.
First of all, we're assuming that there is a deity that is not human contrived. That's a huge assumption. But let's say there is a deity besides the many humans have made up- how do we know that deity has any interest in being just or loving? What if that deity started up the universe and let it go on it's own just to see what happens? As far as our own ideas of justice- I'd be surprised if most of us here have a widely differing view of what justice is.
I'm with you on controlled anger and I was almost with you on the second paragraph but as I think about it, I believe there are times when being aggressively against something is not only OK, it's sometimes very much the right thing to do (defending a loved one or an innocent bystander, keeping your home secure, fighting for your freedom, etc.)
Hatred is a tough one. Who amongst us can say they have never hated something or someone? Sorry to say, I can't. The gang that used to terrorize me during lunch break in 7th grade? Yeah, I hated them. But yes, less hatred is always the best.
Did you mean "deliberating" or "debilitating" apathy? I don't recommend the latter but people with depression are sometimes that way. It doesn't make them bad.
Good point about the depression thing. It can be debilitating (that's the word I was going for). I am talking more about the entitled "I don't care so stfu" attitude. I've experienced it in religious and non-religious people. It's just interesting ... If you dig around, there's usually something else informing that behaviour. Not alway, but often.
It's similar with habitually aggressive people. Maybe that's what I missed ... Habitual. There's a difference between someone who becomes violently protective when his family's safety is threatened, and someone who flies off the handle over disagreements in politics or philosophy or whatever. I see this second one in a lot of my conservative Christian friends. When I disagree with them, some of them get visibly shaken and they start in on the "you don't believe the bible anymore; are you really saved?" talk.
I laugh it off, and marvel at how asinine the whole religion thing can get.
"habitually aggressive people"-- pretty much agree there too though I can accept habitual aggression if vented like through art- like, say, some forms of jazz or hard core punk (although I like to mix all that in with all kinds of other music).
Just saw the movie Charlie Bartlett. I like it that the tough punk character Murphy Bivens who at first is total aggression turns out to be an OK guy with definitely redeeming characteristics. Always cool when you can turn a hot-head around a bit. I kind of had to go the other way from total geek to putting a little more fuel on the fire.
www.headstonesband.com
www.headstonesband.com
What's to debate?
I'm not being obtuse here but.......really, what's to debate.
Religion is simply a way of controlling the masses (or was, until the populous wised up). It's not based on fact......it's based on a fairy story. Just like any other fairy story it has a message.....the basic premise of which is; be kind to others. Nothing wrong with that. But don't try and tell me that one of the characters in this fairy story created the earth (and all living things within), other celestial beings, the universe etc etc. That's just silly!
And besides religion (or the type one follows) is simple geography. If you were born in Ireland, your most likely to be Catholic.....if you were born in the Middle East, you're more likely to be Muslim. Easter Island, some huge stone figures......etc etc.
Debate....Phah!
Now should we not though challenge this totally irrational belief system? This false hope and ability to not take responsibility for bad and good. Should we not call out the delusion? People believe they can pray and something will happen. They believe Adam and Eve created us all.
Feel it's our obligation to end this illogical way of coping and if we hurt feelings so be it. Pussyfooting around doesn't help. Not offending doesn't help.
If your relative started believing in Barney being real and affecting outcomes would you not interject? With gusto? Christianity is exactly the same thing.
Being PC continues this charade.
Yeah RSR is really good at marketing with warm non literal translation of Bible but it's still all BS and needs to be countered strongly.
I fucking cringe every time my 5 year old asks me to read her the bible, and my wife does NOT understand why it's a big deal.
www.headstonesband.com
I have always thought that raising a child and telling them you are catholic child - (insert any religion here) and this is what you will believe is tantamount to child abuse.
To go a bit further it is time I think that the bible, korans, whatever other religious books be placed into public libraries and schools for the soul (no pun intended) reason that Children should be taught that religion exists, just like greek mythology, ancient forelore etc and the bible should be on the same shelf in the library as all other books and be nothing more than a book to read at the library. But children should not be taught their beliefs.
It is funny years later my mom still jokes with me and says santa will stop giving you a gift once you stop believing in him. Needless to say I get a "santa" gift each year.
Santa has me beat. I just can't teach or tell my kids santa isn't real.