Evolution v. Creationism Debate

PJfanwillneverleave1

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/world/Polls+show+very+creationist+country+pretty+creative+what/10444096/story.html

Weird how articles like this start posting up on my rss feed

RSR

Honestly, if a person believes that Barney the dinosaur is the salvation of the world and it's turning them into a terrible person, talk with them about the terrible person part.

And then be a better person yourself, or you won't have a leg to stand on.

Talk about what they believe about beliefs. Don't give in to the distraction of arguing about religion. It's a trap. The argument itself will become the problem, and will probably perpetuate any bad blood rather than sort it out the way you want.

It's also interesting to see the cynicism here, and the limitations of forums. Because I am a gentle person by nature, and because I'm just being me on a forum. it's brought into question as "marketing" because no one here actually knows me. Not that I put any weight on this ... I'm not crying into my pillow over it. It's just interesting.

Anyway, peace out. It's been a fun discussion.

hedonist

RSR said:

And then be a better person yourself, or you won't have a leg to stand on.

This, for me, is what it boils down to.

Just BE a better person. A decent one.

Decency shouldn't need to be defined, but I understand there are gradations at the least, and distortions at the worst.

To be kind, compassionate (not to be confused with naivete), without thoughts of reward or repercussion beyond our own conscience.

Anyway back to you, RSR...I've appreciated your input overall. It's interesting, and a perspective that's made me think.

Peace back in whenever you want; I, for one, would welcome it.

brianlux

Nicely said, RSR and Hedo.

Not being PC here or anywhere else on this thread- that's not my m.o. - just being honest like the rest of you good folks.

Peace, all.

PJfanwillneverleave1

riotgrl said:

We've discussed the Creation Museum in Kentucky before so I thought some of you might be interested in listening to this debate that is happening this evening. Here is a link where you can listen live:

wfpl.org/post/watch-ken-ham-bill-nye-creationismevolution-debate-here

Bill Nye the Science Guy vs. Ken Ham the founder (creator ) of the Creation museum.

Hi OP

Just want to make sure that I am debating the topic not the person.
So I would like to post this
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=richard+dawkins+creation&FORM=VIRE2#view=detail&mid=4FD3BC448CD577A52F7E4FD3BC448CD577A52F7E

rgambs

RSR said:

Honestly, if a person believes that Barney the dinosaur is the salvation of the world and it's turning them into a terrible person, talk with them about the terrible person part.

And then be a better person yourself, or you won't have a leg to stand on.

Talk about what they believe about beliefs. Don't give in to the distraction of arguing about religion. It's a trap. The argument itself will become the problem, and will probably perpetuate any bad blood rather than sort it out the way you want.

It's also interesting to see the cynicism here, and the limitations of forums. Because I am a gentle person by nature, and because I'm just being me on a forum. it's brought into question as "marketing" because no one here actually knows me. Not that I put any weight on this ... I'm not crying into my pillow over it. It's just interesting.

Anyway, peace out. It's been a fun discussion.

I agree with you but I think, as some people have pointed out, you cant separate the "be a good person" from the religion of those with strong beliefs and therefore have to debate the religion in the end. Those with aanythng approaching, and well short of, fundamental religious beliefs derive their morality from their religion as opposed to deriving it from the principles of kindness and compassion without thought of reward or punishment, as Hedobot and the rest of us secularists do. You often can't convince the devout that it IS being a better person to be accepting of those who are homosexual, those who like to get a buzz now and then, or those who don't pray to their god. At the core, when you debate a person, you are debating the foundation of a persons opinions and not the opinions themselves, that's where progress is made.

callen

RSR said:

Honestly, if a person believes that Barney the dinosaur is the salvation of the world and it's turning them into a terrible person, talk with them about the terrible person part.

And then be a better person yourself, or you won't have a leg to stand on.

Regardless if it makes them good person or not if they believe in Barney or zombies they should be told it's BS.

Being a good person is being honest. Not challenging idiotic beliefs and allowing these completely fictitious beliefs to continue is not being a better person. Those that allow have no leg to stand on.

Believing in gods, prayers, religious books needs to be firmly challenged.

In addition it's very liberating to be done with these beliefs. Taking responsibilities for ones successes and failures. Journey, but once your there, true nirvana/peace.

hedonist

callen said:

RSR said:

Honestly, if a person believes that Barney the dinosaur is the salvation of the world and it's turning them into a terrible person, talk with them about the terrible person part.

And then be a better person yourself, or you won't have a leg to stand on.

Regardless if it makes them good person or not if they believe in Barney or zombies they should be told it's BS.

Being a good person is being honest. Not challenging idiotic beliefs and allowing these completely fictitious beliefs to continue is not being a better person. Those that allow have no leg to stand on.

Believing in gods, prayers, religious books needs to be firmly challenged.

In addition it's very liberating to be done with these beliefs. Taking responsibilities for ones successes and failures. Journey, but once your there, true nirvana/peace.

To challenge is fine - healthy, even - but unless the freedom/quality of life of others are affected, it's not my place to tell anyone else what they're "allowed" to believe.

Liberation can be so personal, too. Our means - the journey, as you said - can bring peace in itself.

callen

hedonist said:

callen said:

RSR said:

Honestly, if a person believes that Barney the dinosaur is the salvation of the world and it's turning them into a terrible person, talk with them about the terrible person part.

And then be a better person yourself, or you won't have a leg to stand on.

Regardless if it makes them good person or not if they believe in Barney or zombies they should be told it's BS.

Being a good person is being honest. Not challenging idiotic beliefs and allowing these completely fictitious beliefs to continue is not being a better person. Those that allow have no leg to stand on.

Believing in gods, prayers, religious books needs to be firmly challenged.

In addition it's very liberating to be done with these beliefs. Taking responsibilities for ones successes and failures. Journey, but once your there, true nirvana/peace.

To challenge is fine - healthy, even - but unless the freedom/quality of life of others are affected, it's not my place to tell anyone else what they're "allowed" to believe.

Liberation can be so personal, too. Our means - the journey, as you said - can bring peace in itself.

Oh but Christianity is not all loving kind and gentle as RSR portrays. It does hurt. Takes away your rights. Dumbs down society. Stymies science And should we not as a society progress from ghosts and goblins and understand the facts of our universe.

It is a disservice to society to allow this foolishness to continue.

hedonist

I think there are factions within all religions that deviate from kindness. Hell, even toss aside religion - within all groups of anything.

I'm just acknowledging that not ALL Christians impose their beliefs on others.

Hope this analogy makes sense, but to me it's similar to countries...dislike the government, respect the individuals.

brianlux

I'm not what you would describe as a religious person but for a number of reasons, I don't find it useful to suggest we throw out religion altogether or be overly critical of those who profess faith.

First of all, because no matter how strong a logical argument one makes for religion being a fantasy or merely a product of human make-believe (and I understand those arguments), religions will always be a part of human activity- always have been, always will.


Secondly, not everyone takes they easy way out like I do (though the road TO that conclusion was neither short nor easy) which is to accept that the things we cannot understand scientifically and the things that feel "spiritual" to us are mysterious and to be OK with seeing them as mystery. Others have a greater need to find something more solid to hinge these things upon- thus, religion.

And thirdly, despite the many evil, harmful and atrocious acts brought on in the name of religion (like most wars, etc.) I believe it is also useful to look at the beneficial things people of faith have accomplished. There are many such people who have done great work in promoting and working for excellent causes such as justice, freedom and equality. Look at the work of people like people like Desmond Tutu Anglican Bishop/social rights activist ), Jim Wallis (protestant Christian/ peace and social justice advocate), Rami Nashashibi (Muslim, director of the Inner-City Muslim Action Network/community organizer, justice advocate), Rev. Frank Schaefer (United Methodist pastor who works to support same-sex marriage), and one of my favorites- Wendell Berry/Advocate of Christian pacifism, environmental activist, social critic.

And lets not forget the atheists. Kurt Vonnegut Jr.- one of our greatest writers: atheist/social critic.

In all these cases (even Vonnegut only I can't quite figure out how to explain why I believe this) the terrific work all of these people and many more have done was at least in part driven by their faith. I don't think you can dismiss that.

riotgrl

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

riotgrl said:

We've discussed the Creation Museum in Kentucky before so I thought some of you might be interested in listening to this debate that is happening this evening. Here is a link where you can listen live:

wfpl.org/post/watch-ken-ham-bill-nye-creationismevolution-debate-here

Bill Nye the Science Guy vs. Ken Ham the founder (creator ) of the Creation museum.

Hi OP

Just want to make sure that I am debating the topic not the person.
So I would like to post this
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=richard+dawkins+creation&FORM=VIRE2#view=detail&mid=4FD3BC448CD577A52F7E4FD3BC448CD577A52F7E

You don't need to convince me, I am firmly on the side of evolution in this debate

Last-12-Exit

brianlux said:

I'm not what you would describe as a religious person but for a number of reasons, I don't find it useful to suggest we throw out religion altogether or be overly critical of those who profess faith.

First of all, because no matter how strong a logical argument one makes for religion being a fantasy or merely a product of human make-believe (and I understand those arguments), religions will always be a part of human activity- always have been, always will.


Secondly, not everyone takes they easy way out like I do (though the road TO that conclusion was neither short nor easy) which is to accept that the things we cannot understand scientifically and the things that feel "spiritual" to us are mysterious and to be OK with seeing them as mystery. Others have a greater need to find something more solid to hinge these things upon- thus, religion.

And thirdly, despite the many evil, harmful and atrocious acts brought on in the name of religion (like most wars, etc.) I believe it is also useful to look at the beneficial things people of faith have accomplished. There are many such people who have done great work in promoting and working for excellent causes such as justice, freedom and equality. Look at the work of people like people like Desmond Tutu Anglican Bishop/social rights activist ), Jim Wallis (protestant Christian/ peace and social justice advocate), Rami Nashashibi (Muslim, director of the Inner-City Muslim Action Network/community organizer, justice advocate), Rev. Frank Schaefer (United Methodist pastor who works to support same-sex marriage), and one of my favorites- Wendell Berry/Advocate of Christian pacifism, environmental activist, social critic.

And lets not forget the atheists. Kurt Vonnegut Jr.- one of our greatest writers: atheist/social critic.

In all these cases (even Vonnegut only I can't quite figure out how to explain why I believe this) the terrific work all of these people and many more have done was at least in part driven by their faith. I don't think you can dismiss that.

I understand your sentiments. The question I have is would the people you mentioned above still have the same views and still be good people if religion wasn't a factor? Would Kurt Vonnegut still be an excellent writer if there was no such thing as religion and he wasn't labeled an atheist? Would Wendell Berry still be a pacifist if he wasn't apart of a Christian organization?

I know you wrote that their faith influenced them, but I say they could still be great without the religious overtones.

PJ_Soul

JWPearl said:

Well I'd say 6000-7000 years, because 1000years the bibles equivalent of 1 day of Gods and he took 6 days for him to create things and on the 7th day he rested which is for us now, he's still resting you could say if you want to look at it that way,
2 peter 3:8

Are you just fucking with everyone JW?

brianlux

Last-12-Exit said:

brianlux said:

I'm not what you would describe as a religious person but for a number of reasons, I don't find it useful to suggest we throw out religion altogether or be overly critical of those who profess faith.

First of all, because no matter how strong a logical argument one makes for religion being a fantasy or merely a product of human make-believe (and I understand those arguments), religions will always be a part of human activity- always have been, always will.


Secondly, not everyone takes they easy way out like I do (though the road TO that conclusion was neither short nor easy) which is to accept that the things we cannot understand scientifically and the things that feel "spiritual" to us are mysterious and to be OK with seeing them as mystery. Others have a greater need to find something more solid to hinge these things upon- thus, religion.

And thirdly, despite the many evil, harmful and atrocious acts brought on in the name of religion (like most wars, etc.) I believe it is also useful to look at the beneficial things people of faith have accomplished. There are many such people who have done great work in promoting and working for excellent causes such as justice, freedom and equality. Look at the work of people like people like Desmond Tutu Anglican Bishop/social rights activist ), Jim Wallis (protestant Christian/ peace and social justice advocate), Rami Nashashibi (Muslim, director of the Inner-City Muslim Action Network/community organizer, justice advocate), Rev. Frank Schaefer (United Methodist pastor who works to support same-sex marriage), and one of my favorites- Wendell Berry/Advocate of Christian pacifism, environmental activist, social critic.

And lets not forget the atheists. Kurt Vonnegut Jr.- one of our greatest writers: atheist/social critic.

In all these cases (even Vonnegut only I can't quite figure out how to explain why I believe this) the terrific work all of these people and many more have done was at least in part driven by their faith. I don't think you can dismiss that.

I understand your sentiments. The question I have is would the people you mentioned above still have the same views and still be good people if religion wasn't a factor? Would Kurt Vonnegut still be an excellent writer if there was no such thing as religion and he wasn't labeled an atheist? Would Wendell Berry still be a pacifist if he wasn't apart of a Christian organization?

I know you wrote that their faith influenced them, but I say they could still be great without the religious overtones.

That's a good question but I'm afraid it's one only Tralfamadorians are likely to be able to answer! Haha!

But the things is that for most if not all of those people, their faith is an integral part of who they are and what they do. And of course there are many great people who have done great and wonderful things who do not profess any particular religion or who are atheists- people from a wide spectrum like Edward Abbey, Henry Rollins, Amy Goodman, Derrick Jensen and on and on. Mix all those good religious and non-religious people together and you have a great bunch of people.

I guess what I'm saying is, I'm not in a hurry to dismiss people for their faith or lack thereof. As long as a person's faith is a personal belief and not one they claim I must own, I'm good with that.

It's like the good cop/bad cop thing. Yes, there is widespread corruption in police forces and I believe that generally there is a lot of change needing to take place in law enforcement or we'll end up in a police state. But I'm not, as you know, about to call all cops "bad". No way. Same deal with religious people. Religions have done massive amounts of harm and many changes that way would be great but that doesn't make all people of faith bad or harmful.

PJfanwillneverleave1

brianlux said:

Last-12-Exit said:

brianlux said:

I'm not what you would describe as a religious person but for a number of reasons, I don't find it useful to suggest we throw out religion altogether or be overly critical of those who profess faith.

First of all, because no matter how strong a logical argument one makes for religion being a fantasy or merely a product of human make-believe (and I understand those arguments), religions will always be a part of human activity- always have been, always will.


Secondly, not everyone takes they easy way out like I do (though the road TO that conclusion was neither short nor easy) which is to accept that the things we cannot understand scientifically and the things that feel "spiritual" to us are mysterious and to be OK with seeing them as mystery. Others have a greater need to find something more solid to hinge these things upon- thus, religion.

And thirdly, despite the many evil, harmful and atrocious acts brought on in the name of religion (like most wars, etc.) I believe it is also useful to look at the beneficial things people of faith have accomplished. There are many such people who have done great work in promoting and working for excellent causes such as justice, freedom and equality. Look at the work of people like people like Desmond Tutu Anglican Bishop/social rights activist ), Jim Wallis (protestant Christian/ peace and social justice advocate), Rami Nashashibi (Muslim, director of the Inner-City Muslim Action Network/community organizer, justice advocate), Rev. Frank Schaefer (United Methodist pastor who works to support same-sex marriage), and one of my favorites- Wendell Berry/Advocate of Christian pacifism, environmental activist, social critic.

And lets not forget the atheists. Kurt Vonnegut Jr.- one of our greatest writers: atheist/social critic.

In all these cases (even Vonnegut only I can't quite figure out how to explain why I believe this) the terrific work all of these people and many more have done was at least in part driven by their faith. I don't think you can dismiss that.

I understand your sentiments. The question I have is would the people you mentioned above still have the same views and still be good people if religion wasn't a factor? Would Kurt Vonnegut still be an excellent writer if there was no such thing as religion and he wasn't labeled an atheist? Would Wendell Berry still be a pacifist if he wasn't apart of a Christian organization?

I know you wrote that their faith influenced them, but I say they could still be great without the religious overtones.

That's a good question but I'm afraid it's one only Tralfamadorians are likely to be able to answer! Haha!

But the things is that for most if not all of those people, their faith is an integral part of who they are and what they do. And of course there are many great people who have done great and wonderful things who do not profess any particular religion or who are atheists- people from a wide spectrum like Edward Abbey, Henry Rollins, Amy Goodman, Derrick Jensen and on and on. Mix all those good religious and non-religious people together and you have a great bunch of people.

I guess what I'm saying is, I'm not in a hurry to dismiss people for their faith or lack thereof. As long as a person's faith is a personal belief and not one they claim I must own, I'm good with that.

It's like the good cop/bad cop thing. Yes, there is widespread corruption in police forces and I believe that generally there is a lot of change needing to take place in law enforcement or we'll end up in a police state. But I'm not, as you know, about to call all cops "bad". No way. Same deal with religious people. Religions have done massive amounts of harm and many changes that way would be great but that doesn't make all people of faith bad or harmful.

No one is dismissing anyone for their faith or lack thereof. The unfaithful seem to know what is going on that's all.

PJfanwillneverleave1

I think it's been awhile since some have watched this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDaOgu2CQtI

brianlux

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

brianlux said:

Last-12-Exit said:

brianlux said:

I'm not what you would describe as a religious person but for a number of reasons, I don't find it useful to suggest we throw out religion altogether or be overly critical of those who profess faith.

First of all, because no matter how strong a logical argument one makes for religion being a fantasy or merely a product of human make-believe (and I understand those arguments), religions will always be a part of human activity- always have been, always will.


Secondly, not everyone takes they easy way out like I do (though the road TO that conclusion was neither short nor easy) which is to accept that the things we cannot understand scientifically and the things that feel "spiritual" to us are mysterious and to be OK with seeing them as mystery. Others have a greater need to find something more solid to hinge these things upon- thus, religion.

And thirdly, despite the many evil, harmful and atrocious acts brought on in the name of religion (like most wars, etc.) I believe it is also useful to look at the beneficial things people of faith have accomplished. There are many such people who have done great work in promoting and working for excellent causes such as justice, freedom and equality. Look at the work of people like people like Desmond Tutu Anglican Bishop/social rights activist ), Jim Wallis (protestant Christian/ peace and social justice advocate), Rami Nashashibi (Muslim, director of the Inner-City Muslim Action Network/community organizer, justice advocate), Rev. Frank Schaefer (United Methodist pastor who works to support same-sex marriage), and one of my favorites- Wendell Berry/Advocate of Christian pacifism, environmental activist, social critic.

And lets not forget the atheists. Kurt Vonnegut Jr.- one of our greatest writers: atheist/social critic.

In all these cases (even Vonnegut only I can't quite figure out how to explain why I believe this) the terrific work all of these people and many more have done was at least in part driven by their faith. I don't think you can dismiss that.

I understand your sentiments. The question I have is would the people you mentioned above still have the same views and still be good people if religion wasn't a factor? Would Kurt Vonnegut still be an excellent writer if there was no such thing as religion and he wasn't labeled an atheist? Would Wendell Berry still be a pacifist if he wasn't apart of a Christian organization?

I know you wrote that their faith influenced them, but I say they could still be great without the religious overtones.

That's a good question but I'm afraid it's one only Tralfamadorians are likely to be able to answer! Haha!

But the things is that for most if not all of those people, their faith is an integral part of who they are and what they do. And of course there are many great people who have done great and wonderful things who do not profess any particular religion or who are atheists- people from a wide spectrum like Edward Abbey, Henry Rollins, Amy Goodman, Derrick Jensen and on and on. Mix all those good religious and non-religious people together and you have a great bunch of people.

I guess what I'm saying is, I'm not in a hurry to dismiss people for their faith or lack thereof. As long as a person's faith is a personal belief and not one they claim I must own, I'm good with that.

It's like the good cop/bad cop thing. Yes, there is widespread corruption in police forces and I believe that generally there is a lot of change needing to take place in law enforcement or we'll end up in a police state. But I'm not, as you know, about to call all cops "bad". No way. Same deal with religious people. Religions have done massive amounts of harm and many changes that way would be great but that doesn't make all people of faith bad or harmful.

No one is dismissing anyone for their faith or lack thereof. The unfaithful seem to know what is going on that's all.

I agree that there are a lot of aspects of all faiths that seem really far fetched to me which is why I don't follow any religion. But do you really believe that because they don't follow a faith, the unfaithful know what's going on? What, like all of them? And you don't think there are people of faith who know what's going on? That's interesting. I'll have to take that up with Mr. Berry next time I see him.

brianlux

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

I think it's been awhile since some have watched this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDaOgu2CQtI

Ha! Yes, one of the best music vids ever!

Gern Blansten

When I realized that the reason we embalm people and bury them in caskets in the ground is so that their bodies will be around for the rapture I about shit myself.

I really believe that society would advance without religion. It is a manufactured way to divide people.