Evolution v. Creationism Debate

hedonist

brianlux said:

I grew up in a protestant home, tried the Jesus thing in the seventies and eventually decided I'm good with learning a little from all faiths but that ultimately what is beyond that which we know is pretty much Mystery. I like the concept of the mystery of the intangible. That said, I have respect for those who practice their faith, what ever it may be, when that faith is based on a desire to do good things, be loving, generous, kind, etc. RSR, you seem like that type.

I don't think we need to dump on people we don't agree with. Just saying.

Good thoughts from a good person. Thanks, Brian

hedonist

Last-12-Exit said:

brianlux said:

I grew up in a protestant home, tried the Jesus thing in the seventies and eventually decided I'm good with learning a little from all faiths but that ultimately what is beyond that which we know is pretty much Mystery. I like the concept of the mystery of the intangible. That said, I have respect for those who practice their faith, what ever it may be, when that faith is based on a desire to do good things, be loving, generous, kind, etc. RSR, you seem like that type.

I don't think we need to dump on people we don't agree with. Just saying.

In regards to your last sentence, I'm fine with people believing what they want. What I'm sick of is the people in my life insisting that I need god to be alive and to die.

And this too. Except for one close friend, I've never been preached to in that way by family or by others close to me. I wonder how different my perspective would be had I been.

However, when I was 20 or so, I had a co-worker go to HR claiming I was the devil and had an evil aura about me. That chick scared the hell out of me.

PJfanwillneverleave1

hedonist said:

Last-12-Exit said:

brianlux said:

I grew up in a protestant home, tried the Jesus thing in the seventies and eventually decided I'm good with learning a little from all faiths but that ultimately what is beyond that which we know is pretty much Mystery. I like the concept of the mystery of the intangible. That said, I have respect for those who practice their faith, what ever it may be, when that faith is based on a desire to do good things, be loving, generous, kind, etc. RSR, you seem like that type.

I don't think we need to dump on people we don't agree with. Just saying.

In regards to your last sentence, I'm fine with people believing what they want. What I'm sick of is the people in my life insisting that I need god to be alive and to die.

And this too. Except for one close friend, I've never been preached to in that way by family or by others close to me. I wonder how different my perspective would be had I been.

However, when I was 20 or so, I had a co-worker go to HR claiming I was the devil and had an evil aura about me. That chick scared the hell out of me.

You evil hedonist you >:)

hedonist

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

hedonist said:

Last-12-Exit said:

brianlux said:

I grew up in a protestant home, tried the Jesus thing in the seventies and eventually decided I'm good with learning a little from all faiths but that ultimately what is beyond that which we know is pretty much Mystery. I like the concept of the mystery of the intangible. That said, I have respect for those who practice their faith, what ever it may be, when that faith is based on a desire to do good things, be loving, generous, kind, etc. RSR, you seem like that type.

I don't think we need to dump on people we don't agree with. Just saying.

In regards to your last sentence, I'm fine with people believing what they want. What I'm sick of is the people in my life insisting that I need god to be alive and to die.

And this too. Except for one close friend, I've never been preached to in that way by family or by others close to me. I wonder how different my perspective would be had I been.

However, when I was 20 or so, I had a co-worker go to HR claiming I was the devil and had an evil aura about me. That chick scared the hell out of me.

You evil hedonist you >:)

O:-)

(you'd think that innocent fucker up there would be right next to the devil one )

RSR

So is the problem the fact that people believe in a deity that is absolutely just and absolutely loving, or is it that some people take that idea of an absolutely just and loving deity, and put their own ideas of justice onto that deity?

Whenever I meet people who are aggressively against anything or deliberately apathetic, I have to wonder what's really in the driver's seat for them. Controlled anger is one thing, but hate is another. Sadness is one thing, but delibitating apathy is another.

PJfanwillneverleave1

RSR said:

So is the problem the fact that people believe in a deity that is absolutely just and absolutely loving, or is it that some people take that idea of an absolutely just and loving deity, and put their own ideas of justice onto that deity?

Whenever I meet people who are aggressively against anything or deliberately apathetic, I have to wonder what's really in the driver's seat for them. Controlled anger is one thing, but hate is another. Sadness is one thing, but deliberating apathy is another.

Speaking in tongues gets no answers.

brianlux

RSR said:

So is the problem the fact that people believe in a deity that is absolutely just and absolutely loving, or is it that some people take that idea of an absolutely just and loving deity, and put their own ideas of justice onto that deity?

Whenever I meet people who are aggressively against anything or deliberately apathetic, I have to wonder what's really in the driver's seat for them. Controlled anger is one thing, but hate is another. Sadness is one thing, but deliberating apathy is another.

Interesting question, RSR. I'll give it a go:

First of all, we're assuming that there is a deity that is not human contrived. That's a huge assumption. But let's say there is a deity besides the many humans have made up- how do we know that deity has any interest in being just or loving? What if that deity started up the universe and let it go on it's own just to see what happens? As far as our own ideas of justice- I'd be surprised if most of us here have a widely differing view of what justice is.

I'm with you on controlled anger and I was almost with you on the second paragraph but as I think about it, I believe there are times when being aggressively against something is not only OK, it's sometimes very much the right thing to do (defending a loved one or an innocent bystander, keeping your home secure, fighting for your freedom, etc.)

Hatred is a tough one. Who amongst us can say they have never hated something or someone? Sorry to say, I can't. The gang that used to terrorize me during lunch break in 7th grade? Yeah, I hated them. But yes, less hatred is always the best.

Did you mean "deliberating" or "debilitating" apathy? I don't recommend the latter but people with depression are sometimes that way. It doesn't make them bad.

RSR

Yeah brianlux, there's a lot to be said about situations where becoming violent might be an only option, or at least feels like it's the only and best option (I.e. Defending your family).

Good point about the depression thing. It can be debilitating (that's the word I was going for). I am talking more about the entitled "I don't care so stfu" attitude. I've experienced it in religious and non-religious people. It's just interesting ... If you dig around, there's usually something else informing that behaviour. Not alway, but often.

It's similar with habitually aggressive people. Maybe that's what I missed ... Habitual. There's a difference between someone who becomes violently protective when his family's safety is threatened, and someone who flies off the handle over disagreements in politics or philosophy or whatever. I see this second one in a lot of my conservative Christian friends. When I disagree with them, some of them get visibly shaken and they start in on the "you don't believe the bible anymore; are you really saved?" talk.

I laugh it off, and marvel at how asinine the whole religion thing can get.

brianlux

RSR said:

Yeah brianlux, there's a lot to be said about situations where becoming violent might be an only option, or at least feels like it's the only and best option (I.e. Defending your family).

Good point about the depression thing. It can be debilitating (that's the word I was going for). I am talking more about the entitled "I don't care so stfu" attitude. I've experienced it in religious and non-religious people. It's just interesting ... If you dig around, there's usually something else informing that behaviour. Not alway, but often.

It's similar with habitually aggressive people. Maybe that's what I missed ... Habitual. There's a difference between someone who becomes violently protective when his family's safety is threatened, and someone who flies off the handle over disagreements in politics or philosophy or whatever. I see this second one in a lot of my conservative Christian friends. When I disagree with them, some of them get visibly shaken and they start in on the "you don't believe the bible anymore; are you really saved?" talk.

I laugh it off, and marvel at how asinine the whole religion thing can get.

"entitled 'I don't care so stfu' attitude"-- Yeah, I agree- I don't have time for that. I guess we generally don't see too much of that on the train- at least I don't think so.

"habitually aggressive people"-- pretty much agree there too though I can accept habitual aggression if vented like through art- like, say, some forms of jazz or hard core punk (although I like to mix all that in with all kinds of other music).

Just saw the movie Charlie Bartlett. I like it that the tough punk character Murphy Bivens who at first is total aggression turns out to be an OK guy with definitely redeeming characteristics. Always cool when you can turn a hot-head around a bit. I kind of had to go the other way from total geek to putting a little more fuel on the fire.

oftenreading

RSR said:

Yeah brianlux, there's a lot to be said about situations where becoming violent might be an only option, or at least feels like it's the only and best option (I.e. Defending your family).

Good point about the depression thing. It can be debilitating (that's the word I was going for). I am talking more about the entitled "I don't care so stfu" attitude. I've experienced it in religious and non-religious people. It's just interesting ... If you dig around, there's usually something else informing that behaviour. Not alway, but often.

I think that's the heart of it - there's usually something else informing human behaviour than what we see on the surface. With the more overtly difficult behaviours, I believe it's usually fear - and most often fear of others' opinions. Fear of being ridiculed, fear of being thought "weak" or "stupid" or laughable, fear of losing relationships or other things that are important to us, so we lash out in anger or we withdraw and pretend we don't care.

HughFreakingDillon

Bentleyspop said:

It always amazes me that so many people believe in and trust in a benevolent being who in their world is so wonderful and loving. Yet is responsible for so many terrible things. Such as AIDS, Ebola, The Holocaust, Dick Cheney, and so much more.

:-O

yeah, I think it's hilarious that god only loves certain people based on geography. fuck those africans! god bless 'murica!

HughFreakingDillon

watch Simpsons Treehouse of Horror. one of them is called The Genesis Tub. It will answer all your quesitons.

hesnotthemessiah

Evolution vs Creationism Debate?

What's to debate?

I'm not being obtuse here but.......really, what's to debate.

Religion is simply a way of controlling the masses (or was, until the populous wised up). It's not based on fact......it's based on a fairy story. Just like any other fairy story it has a message.....the basic premise of which is; be kind to others. Nothing wrong with that. But don't try and tell me that one of the characters in this fairy story created the earth (and all living things within), other celestial beings, the universe etc etc. That's just silly!

And besides religion (or the type one follows) is simple geography. If you were born in Ireland, your most likely to be Catholic.....if you were born in the Middle East, you're more likely to be Muslim. Easter Island, some huge stone figures......etc etc.

Debate....Phah!

callen

Look I get that good is sometimes associated with religion and I have friends and family who I love that believe. I will continue to love and hang with them.

Now should we not though challenge this totally irrational belief system? This false hope and ability to not take responsibility for bad and good. Should we not call out the delusion? People believe they can pray and something will happen. They believe Adam and Eve created us all.

Feel it's our obligation to end this illogical way of coping and if we hurt feelings so be it. Pussyfooting around doesn't help. Not offending doesn't help.

If your relative started believing in Barney being real and affecting outcomes would you not interject? With gusto? Christianity is exactly the same thing.

Being PC continues this charade.

Yeah RSR is really good at marketing with warm non literal translation of Bible but it's still all BS and needs to be countered strongly.

callen

Instilling the fear of god into children should be punished as child abuse.

HughFreakingDillon

callen said:

Instilling the fear of god into children should be punished as child abuse.

I'm struggling with this more and more every day.......having agreed with my now-wife that were we to have kids, that we could raise them catholic.

I fucking cringe every time my 5 year old asks me to read her the bible, and my wife does NOT understand why it's a big deal.

Last-12-Exit

I can't even talk about religion with my kids. My oldest, who is 13, has figured out but I don't think fully understands that I don't believe in anything. My wife simply thinks that I'd be a horrible dad to tell my 8 yr old my thoughts. And strike me dead if I stop lying to my kids and tell them about Santa clause.

PJfanwillneverleave1

callen said:

Instilling the fear of god into children should be punished as child abuse.

I know what you are trying to say.
I have always thought that raising a child and telling them you are catholic child - (insert any religion here) and this is what you will believe is tantamount to child abuse.

To go a bit further it is time I think that the bible, korans, whatever other religious books be placed into public libraries and schools for the soul (no pun intended) reason that Children should be taught that religion exists, just like greek mythology, ancient forelore etc and the bible should be on the same shelf in the library as all other books and be nothing more than a book to read at the library. But children should not be taught their beliefs.

PJfanwillneverleave1

Last-12-Exit said:

I can't even talk about religion with my kids. My oldest, who is 13, has figured out but I don't think fully understands that I don't believe in anything. My wife simply thinks that I'd be a horrible dad to tell my 8 yr old my thoughts. And strike me dead if I stop lying to my kids and tell them about Santa clause.

I vaguely remember the day I discovered Santa was my parents. As far as I know my parents never really pushed to believe in santa, easter bunny and the tooth fairy they just came.

It is funny years later my mom still jokes with me and says santa will stop giving you a gift once you stop believing in him. Needless to say I get a "santa" gift each year.

Santa has me beat. I just can't teach or tell my kids santa isn't real.

Last-12-Exit

My youngest (5) just lost his first tooth. So that fucking tooth fairy gave the kid $10. I was working nights that night. Had I been home, that tooth fairy would have gotten robbed! My first tooth was worth .50¢ and a new toothbrush!