Systematic Subjugation of Women by Religion

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  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,716
    rgambs said:

    Personal story, short version: I worked in surgery for several years with some Muslim men from Morocco. Let me tell you, they were visibly uncomfortable with being under the authority of strong women and were not bashful about expressing it. It really chapped their asses to be disciplined by female nurses, they made snide comments about female doctors, and showed nothing but respect for the male doctors. They explained to me that their women are loved and cherished over many conversations, but never did they express sentiments that they were respected or held as equals. Most of them held Asian women as their ideal, and they were not afraid to admit that they preferred demure women to the bold empowered style of many American women. All that being said, they were good guys, good people all of them.

    I am in a position where I have to give bad news to university students all the time - i.e. no, you can't do what you want to do and you're going to fail your course. That kind of thing. There are many male Muslim students here, and I can say that in almost all cases, these men do not take kindly to having a woman tell them no. They will argue, bully, in some cases yell and threaten. Once I was even sent a letter from a lawyer by one of them, lol. But as soon as a man takes over they are perfectly agreeable. I would say, from my experiences, a lot of Muslim men really are not into having women be in charge of things. Not all, of course. Let's just assume that anything I ever say on this subject is a generalization, kay? ;) I've had many female professors and tutors and co-workers say the same thing of Muslim men. It's actually considered a problem at the university. Oh, and issues about Muslim men who are unwilling to work with female student peers in class has become a common incident that OMBUDS has to deal with (for the record, the school does NOT accommodate those requests). This is clearly a pattern, and it's disturbing to me that most of these guys are young - in their early 20s. I'm sad that these kinds of attitudes are being taught to younger generations.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • rgambs
    rgambs Posts: 13,576
    benjs said:

    hedonist said:

    Is it all about distraction though?

    And if so, why not make it incumbent upon those so easily distracted during prayer (if indeed that would be such a hindrance!) to employ self-discipline instead of..."hey ladies! You all do your thing over there because we're just too weak." Shit, we can still look and lust - men AND women. Just keep your hands and other parts to yourself.

    Know what I mean?

    Drowned, kind of like you - most of my experience is as being brought up with Judaism (with limited exposure to other faiths along the way). There's not much I remember about going to temple except that godawful singing and chanting in a tongue unfamiliar to me. I was no fan then, though I'll admit to remembering those times with nostalgia and maybe a bit of leftover naivete - all seemed simple. My sister ended up getting married in that same temple and it appeared so tiny to me when seeing it as an adult.

    Anyway, those times in temple, all together, never segregated. I never even knew that concept existed.

    Years later, I attended a Bat Mitzvah ceremony for a cousin at an Orthodox temple in London. All women on the other side. Was pretty miffed at first (especially when one of the reasons given was that "some women may be on their period". Oh dear!

    And...hello! We're celebrating the milestone of a 13-YEAR-OLD GIRL who's probably already crossed that river, so to speak, if not at the moment.

    It just struck me as odd. Unfamiliar, I guess, not having been exposed to that side of my parents' faith.

    hedonist, if you want to read a very funny book, check out A.J. Jacobs' "A Year of Living Biblically". In it, to draw attention to the antiquation of the bible, he undergoes a challenge to live according to the commandments in the Torah and deals with maintaining that lifestyle in New York City (spoiler: hilarity ensues). There is indeed a commandment that has been taken to mean that a man may not sit anywhere deemed "unclean" - which, biblical scholars say, means a seat which has been sat on by a woman who has had her period within the last five days (correct me if I'm wrong on the length of time). Ultra-Orthodox Jews would take that one step further, and say how could anyone ever be sure of the cleanliness of a seat? Therefore, they would only use their own seats, or sit in private institutions. Women aren't exactly leaving Post-It notes where they've sat, and I would assume they aren't announcing when they're having their periods. Jacobs' wife, who did not like the obtrusive nature of this project, smiled when he got home from his first day of the experiment, and he curiously inquired why she was so smug. Her response was something along the lines of "I'm having my period. And I sat everywhere."
    I read that one! It was pretty amusing, and not ENTIRELY demeaning. He learned a few lessons that improved his life, namely, not taking things for granted and being thankful. Before we judge too heavily, let's all remember that many of our grandparents were racist to varying degrees and it usually didn't stop them from being loving caregivers.
    badbrains said:

    chadwick said:

    i don't ever wanna offend anyone. i just don't get it, why women are second class citizens with these cultures. sure one could say it isn't any of my business & it isn't. but damn it isn't right & women are fantastic & should be leaders & equals althroughout the world. oppressing girls & women drives me up a fucking wall. instantly i have no respect for men who live this way

    You hit dead on the head Chadwick, it is a culture thing not religious. I'd love for any Muslim circassian to try to use that stick on a circassian woman. First off, if the woman doesn't get him, the entire tribe will.
    The impetus to raise one's kids with such beliefs is cultural but it has it's origin and justification in the "holy" texts!! I believe we have to attack at the source, and the source is ancient ideologies. Why should a harmful, pain causing, belief get a pass just because it is tied to religion? It is time to stand up to these backward belief systems and the old shrivs that espouse them.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,716
    Thanks for starting the thread btw, rgambs. I think this is an important issue... one that needs to be discussed. I feel like many want to avoid the subject, but I hope people don't, because the only way things can get better is if people confront it without fear of being accused of bigotry, etc. The subjugation of women in the Muslim world IS a fact - one that pretty much punches us in the face - and PCism gets in the way of improvement IMO.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • rgambs
    rgambs Posts: 13,576
    PJ_Soul said:

    rgambs said:

    Personal story, short version: I worked in surgery for several years with some Muslim men from Morocco. Let me tell you, they were visibly uncomfortable with being under the authority of strong women and were not bashful about expressing it. It really chapped their asses to be disciplined by female nurses, they made snide comments about female doctors, and showed nothing but respect for the male doctors. They explained to me that their women are loved and cherished over many conversations, but never did they express sentiments that they were respected or held as equals. Most of them held Asian women as their ideal, and they were not afraid to admit that they preferred demure women to the bold empowered style of many American women. All that being said, they were good guys, good people all of them.

    I am in a position where I have to give bad news to university students all the time - i.e. no, you can't do what you want to do and you're going to fail your course. That kind of thing. There are many male Muslim students here, and I can say that in almost all cases, these men do not take kindly to having a woman tell them no. They will argue, bully, in some cases yell and threaten. Once I was even sent a letter from a lawyer by one of them, lol. But as soon as a man takes over they are perfectly agreeable. I would say, from my experiences, a lot of Muslim men really are not into having women be in charge of things. Not all, of course. Let's just assume that anything I ever say on this subject is a generalization, kay? ;) I've had many female professors and tutors and co-workers say the same thing of Muslim men. It's actually considered a problem at the university. Oh, and issues about Muslim men who are unwilling to work with female student peers in class has become a common incident that OMBUDS has to deal with (for the record, the school does NOT accommodate those requests). This is clearly a pattern, and it's disturbing to me that most of these guys are young - in their early 20s. I'm sad that these kinds of attitudes are being taught to younger generations.
    South American men are often complained of in similar ways. To over-generalize, their hang-ups with women are usually more closely tied to sexualization.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • Jason P
    Jason P Posts: 19,320
    rgambs said:

    This thread seemed like it might have some interest based off the debate in Beheaded by ISIS thread.
    Just to kick it off, here's a quote each from the Old and New Testament.
    Genesis Chapter 3 Verse 16 "...and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."
    1 Timothy Chapter 2 Verse 12 "I permit no woman to teach or have authority over man; she is to keep silent."

    Ahhh, one can only dream of such days ;)

    Our first mistake was going from "thee" and 'thy" to "you". That extra "e" carried a lot of weight with it. I'll address this issue at our next meeting.
    Be Excellent To Each Other
    Party On, Dudes!
  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    Ok ok ok, we all know Islam sucks balls and is the devils religion. Thanks for pointing that out for us. So I guess Islam represents ALL of the abrahamic religions. Awesome, a discussion on abrahamic religions has turned into a gang bang on Islam. That's some debate you guys are having. Mite want to change the threads tittle.
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,716
    edited August 2014
    Okay, so I'm going to post some of the more controversial verses from the Qur'an now. I know that certain people try to claim that Islam holds women equal to men.... I just need to post what bluntly contradicts that theory. To be honest, to suggest that Islam or the Qur'an places women as equal to men is about as nonsensical as trying to claim that the Bible does the same thing. I know you are trying to separate religion and culture badbrains, but this not even possible when referring to Islam. Culture and Islam are intertwined to a huge degree. I don't believe that you can separate the two as cleanly as you seem to want to. Islamic culture is reality. If there is some line in the holy text that contradicts cultural behaviour/law, then so what?? But without further ado:

    "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."
    Qur'an 4:34

    "If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice."
    Qur'an 4:3

    "O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee; and daughters of thy paternal uncles and aunts, and daughters of thy maternal uncles and aunts, who migrated (from Makka) with thee; and any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her;- this only for thee, and not for the Believers (at large); We know what We have appointed for them as to their wives and the captives whom their right hands possess;- in order that there should be no difficulty for thee. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
    Qur'an 33:50

    "O you who believe! when you deal with each other in contracting a debt for a fixed time, then write it down; and let a scribe write it down between you with fairness; and the scribe should not refuse to write as Allah has taught him, so he should write; and let him who owes the debt dictate, and he should be careful of (his duty to) Allah, his Lord, and not diminish anything from it; but if he who owes the debt is unsound in understanding, or weak, or (if) he is not able to dictate himself, let his guardian dictate with fairness; and call in to witness from among your men two witnesses; but if there are not two men, then one man and two women from among those whom you choose to be witnesses, so that if one of the two errs, the second of the two may remind the other; and the witnesses should not refuse when they are summoned; and be not averse to writing it (whether it is) small or large, with the time of its falling due; this is more equitable in the sight of Allah and assures greater accuracy in testimony, and the nearest (way) that you may not entertain doubts (afterwards), except when it is ready merchandise which you give and take among yourselves from hand to hand, then there is no blame on you in not writing it down; and have witnesses when you barter with one another, and let no harm be done to the scribe or to the witness; and if you do (it) then surely it will be a transgression in you, and be careful of (your duty) to Allah, Allah teaches you, and Allah knows all things."
    Qur'an 2:282

    "Allah enjoins you concerning your children: The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females; then if they are more than two females, they shall have two-thirds of what the deceased has left, and if there is one, she shall have the half; and as for his parents, each of them shall have the sixth of what he has left if he has a child, but if he has no child and (only) his two parents inherit him, then his mother shall have the third; but if he has brothers, then his mother shall have the sixth after (the payment of) a bequest he may have bequeathed or a debt; your parents and your children, you know not which of them is the nearer to you in usefulness; this is an ordinance from Allah: Surely Allah is Knowing, Wise."
    Qur'an 4:11

    "Your women are your fields, so go into your fields whichever way you like . . . ." (MAS Abdel Haleem, The Qur’an, Oxford UP, 2004)

    ". . . Wives have the same rights as the husbands have on them in accordance with the generally known principles. Of course, men are a degree above them in status . . . " (Sayyid Abul A’La Maududi, The Meaning of the Qur’an, vol. 1, p. 165)

    "The share of the male shall be twice that of a female . . . ." (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 311)
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    Pjsoul, u an atheist?
  • rgambs
    rgambs Posts: 13,576
    badbrains said:

    Ok ok ok, we all know Islam sucks balls and is the devils religion. Thanks for pointing that out for us. So I guess Islam represents ALL of the abrahamic religions. Awesome, a discussion on abrahamic religions has turned into a gang bang on Islam. That's some debate you guys are having. Mite want to change the threads tittle.

    Not quite. The original post was related to Christianity and Judaism. There have been several mentions of Judaism and Christianty since, and several endicting all 3. I even threw in SA. The fact of the matter is that the largely Muslim nations currently have poor records in regard to this issue, and will be thusly represented.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • hedonist
    hedonist Posts: 24,524
    badbrains said:

    Ok ok ok, we all know Islam sucks balls and is the devils religion. Thanks for pointing that out for us. So I guess Islam represents ALL of the abrahamic religions. Awesome, a discussion on abrahamic religions has turned into a gang bang on Islam. That's some debate you guys are having. Mite want to change the threads tittle.

    For me, BB...I'm looking at it somewhat personally (at least initially), from the side of religion with which I was raised. And I'm open to hearing about situations in other regions and religions. Even other cultures, religion aside.

    No gang-banging from here!

    It's an interesting subject, at least from this woman's point of view :)

  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,716
    edited August 2014
    badbrains said:

    Ok ok ok, we all know Islam sucks balls and is the devils religion. Thanks for pointing that out for us. So I guess Islam represents ALL of the abrahamic religions. Awesome, a discussion on abrahamic religions has turned into a gang bang on Islam. That's some debate you guys are having. Mite want to change the threads tittle.

    I can't speak for others, but I am discussing shit that's wrong. You seem pretty happy to "gang bang" all kinds of other things, but for some reason pointing out the flaws and problems related to inequality for women in Islam is off limits.

    You know, discussing the problems doesn't discount all good things. I'm sorry you are so touchy about this subject, but it's an important subject that needs to be confronted if any positive change will ever happen. You know, there are Muslims who face the facts too.... And btw, other religions and culture have and still are fighting the same kind of battle. Women's rights have to be FOUGHT for. Sorry if you're upset that Islam/Muslim culture is the prevalent culture that still largely embraces the subjugation of women, but that's the reality of it. It doesn't mean that anyone thinks every Muslim man is like this, but it's definitely and obviously a big problem, so it's not helpful to bury your head in the sand and keep talking about respect for women. I respect women IMMENSLEY, which is why this subject upsets me so much and I'm so passionate about it. Because I want all Muslim women, everywhere, to have equality. That doesn't mean I don't know some already do. I'm thinking of all those who DON'T. Not sure how you can be offended by someone caring strongly about the plight of women in the world (muslim or otherwise). That is my ONLY concern. I don't care if I happen to insult Muslims, Christians, Jews, or anyone else in the process.

    PS - I think ALL organized religion sucks balls.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • jeffbr
    jeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    I was explicit in calling out Islam, Jusiasm and Christianity in my little comment. I'm definitely not someone who thinks Islam is the "devil's religion" since I don't believe in any of that devil malarky anyway. I'm equal opportunity in my derision for religions.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    hedonist said:

    badbrains said:

    Ok ok ok, we all know Islam sucks balls and is the devils religion. Thanks for pointing that out for us. So I guess Islam represents ALL of the abrahamic religions. Awesome, a discussion on abrahamic religions has turned into a gang bang on Islam. That's some debate you guys are having. Mite want to change the threads tittle.

    For me, BB...I'm looking at it somewhat personally (at least initially), from the side of religion with which I was raised. And I'm open to hearing about situations in other regions and religions. Even other cultures, religion aside.

    No gang-banging from here!

    It's an interesting subject, at least from this woman's point of view :)

    You're always a class act hedonist. Much respect for you.

    It's so weird when I hear people talk about Islam in way I was never taught. It's almost as if they're talking about a completely different religion. That's why I get so "butt hurt" when I read some of the shit that people say. Especially if they act all holier then thou and single out 1 religion in a discussion of many religions. Seems so disingenuous to do that. But to each his/her own. And in NO WAY should I be the one representing Islam because I'm not really religious. But when I see people fabricating or making up numbers in their heads to justify some logic, I'm gonna call shit on it. And I haven't had to call shit on any of your posts. :D
  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    PJ_Soul said:

    badbrains said:

    Ok ok ok, we all know Islam sucks balls and is the devils religion. Thanks for pointing that out for us. So I guess Islam represents ALL of the abrahamic religions. Awesome, a discussion on abrahamic religions has turned into a gang bang on Islam. That's some debate you guys are having. Mite want to change the threads tittle.

    I can't speak for others, but I am discussing shit that's wrong. You seem pretty happy to "gang bang" all kinds of other things, but for some reason pointing out the flaws and problems related to inequality for women in Islam is off limits.

    You know, discussing the problems doesn't discount all good things. I'm sorry you are so touchy about this subject, but it's an important subject that needs to be confronted if any positive change will ever happen. You know, there are Muslims who face the facts too.... And btw, other religions and culture have and still are fighting the same kind of battle. Women's rights have to be FOUGHT for. Sorry if you're upset that Islam/Muslim culture is the prevalent culture that still largely embraces the subjugation of women, but that's the reality of it. It doesn't mean that anyone thinks every Muslim man is like this, but it's definitely and obviously a big problem, so it's not helpful to bury your head in the sand and keep talking about respect for women. I respect women IMMENSLEY, which is why this subject upsets me so much and I'm so passionate about it. Because I want all Muslim women, everywhere, to have equality. That doesn't mean I don't know some already do. I'm thinking of all those who DON'T. Not sure how you can be offended by someone caring strongly about the plight of women in the world (muslim or otherwise). That is my ONLY concern. I don't care if I happen to insult Muslims, Christians, Jews, or anyone else in the process.

    PS - I think ALL organized religion sucks balls.
    But I'm gonna single out Islam and make it MY crusade to show everyone how awful this religion is. You're doing a great job.

    Care to answer my question from earlier that you've ignored? You an atheist, Christian? Jew? Know you're DEF not Muslim.
  • rgambs
    rgambs Posts: 13,576
    I think the subjugation of women is equally represented in the texts of the Abrahamic religions. For that reason it makes me slightly uncomfortable to single out Islamic cultures, but it must be done. It is the one out of the three with its hooks sunk the deepest into humanity, particularly in government institutions, and we have to eradicate the nastier aspects of it's effects.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • benjs
    benjs Toronto, ON Posts: 9,387
    edited August 2014
    badbrains said:

    Ok ok ok, we all know Islam sucks balls and is the devils religion. Thanks for pointing that out for us. So I guess Islam represents ALL of the abrahamic religions. Awesome, a discussion on abrahamic religions has turned into a gang bang on Islam. That's some debate you guys are having. Mite want to change the threads tittle.

    Part of the reason this discussion is so Islam-centric (at least with respect to the university example given), believe it or not, I would say has to do with devout Muslims' willingness to immerse themselves in modern society. In my five years at university, I did not see many kippahs (aka yarmukas) in classes. My apologies for not knowing the name of the male headdress worn by many Muslims in North America (it looks similar to a do rag), but I did see a large number of them over my years.

    Those who would wear kippahs on a regular basis would probably be defined as fairly devout Conservative Jews - who are often far more liberal than the more observant Orthodox Jewish community. Orthodox Jews were all but absent within the university campus I was at: I would assume they would be typically opting to go to Yeshivas (Jewish places of post-secondary study which focus on learning and analyzing the Talmud and its numerous interpretations). My point is that the communities of Orthodox Jewry are largely groups who keep to themselves for the duration of their entire lives. If there is a skew in the visibility of the discussion about sexism between Islam and other religions, I would guess it is because of the visibility of the sexism itself, not the amount or intensity of the sexism.

    Don't get me wrong though, badbrains, people are often quick to jump to conclusions when it comes to female roles in Islam, but I think what I wrote above has some impact in it.
    Post edited by benjs on
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    PJ_Soul said:

    badbrains said:

    Ok ok ok, we all know Islam sucks balls and is the devils religion. Thanks for pointing that out for us. So I guess Islam represents ALL of the abrahamic religions. Awesome, a discussion on abrahamic religions has turned into a gang bang on Islam. That's some debate you guys are having. Mite want to change the threads tittle.

    I can't speak for others, but I am discussing shit that's wrong. You seem pretty happy to "gang bang" all kinds of other things, but for some reason pointing out the flaws and problems related to inequality for women in Islam is off limits.

    You know, discussing the problems doesn't discount all good things. I'm sorry you are so touchy about this subject, but it's an important subject that needs to be confronted if any positive change will ever happen. You know, there are Muslims who face the facts too.... And btw, other religions and culture have and still are fighting the same kind of battle. Women's rights have to be FOUGHT for. Sorry if you're upset that Islam/Muslim culture is the prevalent culture that still largely embraces the subjugation of women, but that's the reality of it. It doesn't mean that anyone thinks every Muslim man is like this, but it's definitely and obviously a big problem, so it's not helpful to bury your head in the sand and keep talking about respect for women. I respect women IMMENSLEY, which is why this subject upsets me so much and I'm so passionate about it. Because I want all Muslim women, everywhere, to have equality. That doesn't mean I don't know some already do. I'm thinking of all those who DON'T. Not sure how you can be offended by someone caring strongly about the plight of women in the world (muslim or otherwise). That is my ONLY concern. I don't care if I happen to insult Muslims, Christians, Jews, or anyone else in the process.

    PS - I think ALL organized religion sucks balls.
    And what threads are u implying I'm involved in gang bangen?
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,716
    edited August 2014
    I think the focus on Muslims when it comes to this topic comes from the fact that in present times that is the major culture/religion that still supports some pretty extreme cases of subjugation. It is the group of women who are most in need of change right now, since Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality. I am VERY aware of female inequality in my OWN culture (can't say in my religion because I don't have one), but women's rights is light years ahead in western nations compared to where it is in the middle east and southeast Asia (my theory is that this is partly because of separation of church and state in the west). I mean, women were only just granted the right to DRIVE in UAE. India is only just now starting to pay attention to men who rape women. Now where do we think that attention needs to go?? THAT is why we're talking about Muslims badbrains.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • rgambs
    rgambs Posts: 13,576
    benjs said:

    badbrains said:

    Ok ok ok, we all know Islam sucks balls and is the devils religion. Thanks for pointing that out for us. So I guess Islam represents ALL of the abrahamic religions. Awesome, a discussion on abrahamic religions has turned into a gang bang on Islam. That's some debate you guys are having. Mite want to change the threads tittle.

    Part of the reason this discussion is so Islam-centric (at least with respect to the university example given), believe it or not, I would say has to do with devout Muslims' willingness to immerse themselves in modern society. In my five years at university, I did not see many kippahs (aka yarmukas) in classes. My apologies for not knowing the name of the male headdress worn by many Muslims in North America (it looks similar to a do rag), but I did see a large number of them over my years.

    Those who would wear kippahs on a regular basis would probably be defined as fairly devout Conservative Jews - who are often far more liberal than the more observant Orthodox Jewish community. Orthodox Jews were all but absent within the university campus I was at: I would assume they would be typically opting to go to Yeshivas (Jewish places of post-secondary study which focus on learning and analyzing the Talmud and its numerous interpretations). My point is that the communities of Orthodox Jewry are largely groups who keep to themselves for the duration of their entire lives. If there is a skew in the visibility of the discussion about sexism between Islam and other religions, I would guess it is because of the visibility of the sexism itself, not the amount or intensity of the sexism.

    Don't get me wrong though, badbrains, people are often quick to jump to conclusions when it comes to female roles in Islam, but I think what I wrote above has some impact in it.
    I think the eradication of 6 million Jews plays it's part too! The number of fundamentalist believers today would likely be much higher had they not taken such a terrible hit in the '40s.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • benjs
    benjs Toronto, ON Posts: 9,387
    PJ_Soul said:

    I think the focus on Muslims when it comes to this topic comes from the fact that in present times that is the major culture/religion that still supports some pretty extreme cases of subjugation. It is the group of women who are most in need of change right now, since Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality. I am VERY aware of female inequality in my OWN culture (can't say in my religion because I don't have one), but women's rights is light years ahead in western nations compared to where it is in the middle east and southeast Asia (my theory is that this is partly because of separation of church and state in the west). I mean, women were only just granted the right to DRIVE in UAE. India is only just now starting to pay attention to men who rape women. Now where do we think that attention needs to go?? THAT is why we're talking about Muslims badbrains.

    If you're going to talk about India, perhaps it's worth mentioning that, by a LARGE landslide, the predominant religion is Hinduism at over 80% of the population (http://www.censusindia.gov.in/Census_Data_2001/India_at_glance/religion.aspx).
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1