Systematic Subjugation of Women by Religion

rgambs

This thread seemed like it might have some interest based off the debate in Beheaded by ISIS thread.
Just to kick it off, here's a quote each from the Old and New Testament.
Genesis Chapter 3 Verse 16 "...and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."
1 Timothy Chapter 2 Verse 12 "I permit no woman to teach or have authority over man; she is to keep silent."

*edited for the inclusion of all religions

rgambs

Personal story, short version: I worked in surgery for several years with some Muslim men from Morocco. Let me tell you, they were visibly uncomfortable with being under the authority of strong women and were not bashful about expressing it. It really chapped their asses to be disciplined by female nurses, they made snide comments about female doctors, and showed nothing but respect for the male doctors. They explained to me that their women are loved and cherished over many conversations, but never did they express sentiments that they were respected or held as equals. Most of them held Asian women as their ideal, and they were not afraid to admit that they preferred demure women to the bold empowered style of many American women. All that being said, they were good guys, good people all of them.

hedonist

rgambs...I don't doubt they were good people by you, by your experiences working with them in what I'd imagine is an intense environment...but I personally can't reconcile talking shit about women being...women. Being themselves (god forbid confidence, strength, independence come into play).

How can you love and cherish someone, be borne of them, be married to them, be a father to them...and not respect them?

Maybe some can make sense of this; I cannot.

Anyway, I'm glad this thread was started up and am looking forward to some interesting exchanges.

More to come from here!

rgambs

intense environment sometimes, humdrum other times lol we were at the bottom of the staff hierarchy so they did what was required without hesitation. They saved the commentary for outside of the O.R. i will say that i dont know what level of respect they actually had for strong women, only the amount that they showed outwardly. I think there may have been a bit of a "machismo" effect going, where you have to act tough even though you really know better deep down. They were very open in discussions of their faith with me, it was an intellectual environment where they werent on their guard constantly, and didnt encounter people who confused them with radical terrorists.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Religions have been great for the 'old boys club'.

Drowned Out

I honestly don't know much about this topic....my only personal experience with religion is with cathlocism.
I was questioning why women couldn't be priests from the time I understood the concept of god. I was questioning why birth control was considered wrong by the church from the time I .....you know.
I honestly don't have a big problem with men and women praying separately, if it's done on equal footing....I can tell you, when I was in catholic school, the big masses that involved more than one school absolutely were a chance to check out women - that was the only good part about them!...it's the nature of any social event. Women do it with men too...I can see why a strict dogma would seek to minimize the distraction. But if women are relegated into some kind of inferior method or place for their prayers, that's wrong IMO.
Obviously, there are much bigger issues related to treatment of women in some interpretations of islam and other religions....this is reflected in everything from wage discrepancy to discrimination, to abuse and a ton of other societal issues. I just hope people stay aware of how this problem in islam is manipulated for political means, like so many other legitimate and pressing humanitarian issues.

hedonist

Is it all about distraction though?

And if so, why not make it incumbent upon those so easily distracted during prayer (if indeed that would be such a hindrance!) to employ self-discipline instead of..."hey ladies! You all do your thing over there because we're just too weak." Shit, we can still look and lust - men AND women. Just keep your hands and other parts to yourself.

Know what I mean?

Drowned, kind of like you - most of my experience is as being brought up with Judaism (with limited exposure to other faiths along the way). There's not much I remember about going to temple except that godawful singing and chanting in a tongue unfamiliar to me. I was no fan then, though I'll admit to remembering those times with nostalgia and maybe a bit of leftover naivete - all seemed simple. My sister ended up getting married in that same temple and it appeared so tiny to me when seeing it as an adult.

Anyway, those times in temple, all together, never segregated. I never even knew that concept existed.

Years later, I attended a Bat Mitzvah ceremony for a cousin at an Orthodox temple in London. All women on the other side. Was pretty miffed at first (especially when one of the reasons given was that "some women may be on their period". Oh dear!

And...hello! We're celebrating the milestone of a 13-YEAR-OLD GIRL who's probably already crossed that river, so to speak, if not at the moment.

It just struck me as odd. Unfamiliar, I guess, not having been exposed to that side of my parents' faith.

rgambs

hedonist said:

Is it all about distraction though?

And if so, why not make it incumbent upon those so easily distracted during prayer (if indeed that would be such a hindrance!) to employ self-discipline instead of..."hey ladies! You all do your thing over there because we're just too weak." Shit, we can still look and lust - men AND women. Just keep your hands and other parts to yourself.

Know what I mean?

Drowned, kind of like you - most of my experience is as being brought up with Judaism (with limited exposure to other faiths along the way). There's not much I remember about going to temple except that godawful singing and chanting in a tongue unfamiliar to me. I was no fan then, though I'll admit to remembering those times with nostalgia and maybe a bit of leftover naivete - all seemed simple. My sister ended up getting married in that same temple and it appeared so tiny to me when seeing it as an adult.

Anyway, those times in temple, all together, never segregated. I never even knew that concept existed.

Years later, I attended a Bat Mitzvah ceremony for a cousin at an Orthodox temple in London. All women on the other side. Was pretty miffed at first (especially when one of the reasons given was that "some women may be on their period". Oh dear!

And...hello! We're celebrating the milestone of a 13-YEAR-OLD GIRL who's probably already crossed that river, so to speak, if not at the moment.

It just struck me as odd. Unfamiliar, I guess, not having been exposed to that side of my parents' faith.

Your first paragraph hits on an issue that sticks in my craw. Why is it that the onus falls on the woman? Why is modesty in women the focus and not self-restraint in men. It seems that there is a subconscious message there reinforcing the old "temptress woman vs. Weak-willed man" paradigm.

JimmyV

Professor Robert Langdon would have much to say about this.

rgambs

This thread will die quickly without any antagonist lol

chadwick

http://youtu.be/HKBmHWUSJI4

these fucking guys bug me. im not impressed. who's full of shit?

jeffbr

rgambs said:

They explained to me that their women are loved and cherished over many conversations, but never did they express sentiments that they were respected or held as equals.

Well, I love and cherish my dogs, but don't hold them as equal. As far as I'm concerned, many of these wacky religious folk (those who don't understand gender equality) like to talk in platitudes about loving women, but the reality is that they treat women the way I treat dogs. I show my dogs love, I treat them kindly, I take care of them and don't abuse them, but they certainly aren't my equal in the house (even though they like to try to claim my spot on the couch from time to time). I can't respect any religions or cultures which subjugate women. Whether it is Islam, orthodox Judaism, fundie Christians, etc... I find it all bizarre and nonsensical.

badbrains

chadwick said:

http://youtu.be/HKBmHWUSJI4

these fucking guys bug me. im not impressed. who's full of shit?

I went to youtube to find a video on this subject and found tons of videos that have different views. So many that I just gave up.

chadwick

i don't ever wanna offend anyone. i just don't get it, why women are second class citizens with these cultures. sure one could say it isn't any of my business & it isn't. but damn it isn't right & women are fantastic & should be leaders & equals althroughout the world. oppressing girls & women drives me up a fucking wall. instantly i have no respect for men who live this way

i see a lot of ancient bullshit going on. ancient whacky beliefs that are nothing but goofball violence on the oppressed because the man is the big man. horse dick. lighten you shits. let your girls & women bloom & quit being fucking violent & brainwashed

badbrains

chadwick said:

i don't ever wanna offend anyone. i just don't get it, why women are second class citizens with these cultures. sure one could say it isn't any of my business & it isn't. but damn it isn't right & women are fantastic & should be leaders & equals althroughout the world. oppressing girls & women drives me up a fucking wall. instantly i have no respect for men who live this way

You hit dead on the head Chadwick, it is a culture thing not religious. I'd love for any Muslim circassian to try to use that stick on a circassian woman. First off, if the woman doesn't get him, the entire tribe will.

benjs

hedonist said:

Is it all about distraction though?

And if so, why not make it incumbent upon those so easily distracted during prayer (if indeed that would be such a hindrance!) to employ self-discipline instead of..."hey ladies! You all do your thing over there because we're just too weak." Shit, we can still look and lust - men AND women. Just keep your hands and other parts to yourself.

Know what I mean?

Drowned, kind of like you - most of my experience is as being brought up with Judaism (with limited exposure to other faiths along the way). There's not much I remember about going to temple except that godawful singing and chanting in a tongue unfamiliar to me. I was no fan then, though I'll admit to remembering those times with nostalgia and maybe a bit of leftover naivete - all seemed simple. My sister ended up getting married in that same temple and it appeared so tiny to me when seeing it as an adult.

Anyway, those times in temple, all together, never segregated. I never even knew that concept existed.

Years later, I attended a Bat Mitzvah ceremony for a cousin at an Orthodox temple in London. All women on the other side. Was pretty miffed at first (especially when one of the reasons given was that "some women may be on their period". Oh dear!

And...hello! We're celebrating the milestone of a 13-YEAR-OLD GIRL who's probably already crossed that river, so to speak, if not at the moment.

It just struck me as odd. Unfamiliar, I guess, not having been exposed to that side of my parents' faith.

hedonist, if you want to read a very funny book, check out A.J. Jacobs' "A Year of Living Biblically". In it, to draw attention to the antiquation of the bible, he undergoes a challenge to live according to the commandments in the Torah and deals with maintaining that lifestyle in New York City (spoiler: hilarity ensues). There is indeed a commandment that has been taken to mean that a man may not sit anywhere deemed "unclean" - which, biblical scholars say, means a seat which has been sat on by a woman who has had her period within the last five days (correct me if I'm wrong on the length of time). Ultra-Orthodox Jews would take that one step further, and say how could anyone ever be sure of the cleanliness of a seat? Therefore, they would only use their own seats, or sit in private institutions. Women aren't exactly leaving Post-It notes where they've sat, and I would assume they aren't announcing when they're having their periods. Jacobs' wife, who did not like the obtrusive nature of this project, smiled when he got home from his first day of the experiment, and he curiously inquired why she was so smug. Her response was something along the lines of "I'm having my period. And I sat everywhere."

badbrains

benjs said:

hedonist said:

Is it all about distraction though?

And if so, why not make it incumbent upon those so easily distracted during prayer (if indeed that would be such a hindrance!) to employ self-discipline instead of..."hey ladies! You all do your thing over there because we're just too weak." Shit, we can still look and lust - men AND women. Just keep your hands and other parts to yourself.

Know what I mean?

Drowned, kind of like you - most of my experience is as being brought up with Judaism (with limited exposure to other faiths along the way). There's not much I remember about going to temple except that godawful singing and chanting in a tongue unfamiliar to me. I was no fan then, though I'll admit to remembering those times with nostalgia and maybe a bit of leftover naivete - all seemed simple. My sister ended up getting married in that same temple and it appeared so tiny to me when seeing it as an adult.

Anyway, those times in temple, all together, never segregated. I never even knew that concept existed.

Years later, I attended a Bat Mitzvah ceremony for a cousin at an Orthodox temple in London. All women on the other side. Was pretty miffed at first (especially when one of the reasons given was that "some women may be on their period". Oh dear!

And...hello! We're celebrating the milestone of a 13-YEAR-OLD GIRL who's probably already crossed that river, so to speak, if not at the moment.

It just struck me as odd. Unfamiliar, I guess, not having been exposed to that side of my parents' faith.

hedonist, if you want to read a very funny book, check out A.J. Jacobs' "A Year of Living Biblically". In it, to draw attention to the antiquation of the bible, he undergoes a challenge to live according to the commandments in the Torah and deals with maintaining that lifestyle in New York City (spoiler: hilarity ensues). There is indeed a commandment that has been taken to mean that a man may not sit anywhere deemed "unclean" - which, biblical scholars say, means a seat which has been sat on by a woman who has had her period within the last five days (correct me if I'm wrong on the length of time). Ultra-Orthodox Jews would take that one step further, and say how could anyone ever be sure of the cleanliness of a seat? Therefore, they would only use their own seats, or sit in private institutions. Women aren't exactly leaving Post-It notes where they've sat, and I would assume they aren't announcing when they're having their periods. Jacobs' wife, who did not like the obtrusive nature of this project, smiled when he got home from his first day of the experiment, and he curiously inquired why she was so smug. Her response was something along the lines of "I'm having my period. And I sat everywhere."

Hahahahaha that was a funny story )

rr165892

jeffbr said:

rgambs said:

They explained to me that their women are loved and cherished over many conversations, but never did they express sentiments that they were respected or held as equals.

Well, I love and cherish my dogs, but don't hold them as equal. As far as I'm concerned, many of these wacky religious folk (those who don't understand gender equality) like to talk in platitudes about loving women, but the reality is that they treat women the way I treat dogs. I show my dogs love, I treat them kindly, I take care of them and don't abuse them, but they certainly aren't my equal in the house (even though they like to try to claim my spot on the couch from time to time). I can't respect any religions or cultures which subjugate women. Whether it is Islam, orthodox Judaism, fundie Christians, etc... I find it all bizarre and nonsensical.

I second that entire paragraph.Espescially the last sentence.

I joke with friends that I subscribe to the Walker Hayes philosophy.Walker Hayes is quirky singer songwriter who has a fun song called "pants"(link below to video)

"She can wear the pants, she can run the show
She can crack a whip like Indiana Jones
She can rule the roost, she can snap and holler
She can wear the pants as long as I Can Take Em Off Her

Long as I can take 'em off her
Yeah, long as I can take 'em off her
Long as I can take 'em off her"

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X3AJcgfopdk

chadwick

hey let me tell you all something... guys (they aren't men in my eyes) of any heritage who abuse women & kids piss me. any color, any culture, any land, any tribe or any clan, it sucks & i don't like it at all & that is how i was raised to be. oppressing girls & women is fucking stupid & i don't have to like it in my own country by abusive fucking assholes who really should have their teeth knocked out

hedonist

Love it, benjs! I'll definitely look for that book. It reminds me of something I read awhile back, addressed to Dr. Laura (could not STAND her), calling out various passages of the Torah, passages that if taken literally are outrageous...as you mentioned in another thread, antiquated (and even then!).

I'm thankful to have had a father who not only respected women, but liked them too. It was a great example for me to accept nothing less, and I see many of those same qualities he possessed in my husband.

(and I'm not looking - nor wanting - to be placed on a pedestal or idolized...simple equality, acceptance of my faults, respect as a person)

My mother, having lived in Tehran until her late teens, had a different view. Will elaborate on that at some point further.

chadwick

that is some goofy religious stuff about the women's menstrual cycle & not being allowed to sit anywhere unclean. fucking talk about demeaning.

menstrual cycle... fuck that. i do not care. she's ON & it is. barbarians do not give two shits if there is (you know) .... seems like a few 'biblically living' outfits had better toughen up a bit & perhaps respect & love their women more

candy ass little shits

PJ_Soul

rgambs said:

Personal story, short version: I worked in surgery for several years with some Muslim men from Morocco. Let me tell you, they were visibly uncomfortable with being under the authority of strong women and were not bashful about expressing it. It really chapped their asses to be disciplined by female nurses, they made snide comments about female doctors, and showed nothing but respect for the male doctors. They explained to me that their women are loved and cherished over many conversations, but never did they express sentiments that they were respected or held as equals. Most of them held Asian women as their ideal, and they were not afraid to admit that they preferred demure women to the bold empowered style of many American women. All that being said, they were good guys, good people all of them.

I am in a position where I have to give bad news to university students all the time - i.e. no, you can't do what you want to do and you're going to fail your course. That kind of thing. There are many male Muslim students here, and I can say that in almost all cases, these men do not take kindly to having a woman tell them no. They will argue, bully, in some cases yell and threaten. Once I was even sent a letter from a lawyer by one of them, lol. But as soon as a man takes over they are perfectly agreeable. I would say, from my experiences, a lot of Muslim men really are not into having women be in charge of things. Not all, of course. Let's just assume that anything I ever say on this subject is a generalization, kay? I've had many female professors and tutors and co-workers say the same thing of Muslim men. It's actually considered a problem at the university. Oh, and issues about Muslim men who are unwilling to work with female student peers in class has become a common incident that OMBUDS has to deal with (for the record, the school does NOT accommodate those requests). This is clearly a pattern, and it's disturbing to me that most of these guys are young - in their early 20s. I'm sad that these kinds of attitudes are being taught to younger generations.

rgambs

benjs said:

hedonist said:

Is it all about distraction though?

And if so, why not make it incumbent upon those so easily distracted during prayer (if indeed that would be such a hindrance!) to employ self-discipline instead of..."hey ladies! You all do your thing over there because we're just too weak." Shit, we can still look and lust - men AND women. Just keep your hands and other parts to yourself.

Know what I mean?

Drowned, kind of like you - most of my experience is as being brought up with Judaism (with limited exposure to other faiths along the way). There's not much I remember about going to temple except that godawful singing and chanting in a tongue unfamiliar to me. I was no fan then, though I'll admit to remembering those times with nostalgia and maybe a bit of leftover naivete - all seemed simple. My sister ended up getting married in that same temple and it appeared so tiny to me when seeing it as an adult.

Anyway, those times in temple, all together, never segregated. I never even knew that concept existed.

Years later, I attended a Bat Mitzvah ceremony for a cousin at an Orthodox temple in London. All women on the other side. Was pretty miffed at first (especially when one of the reasons given was that "some women may be on their period". Oh dear!

And...hello! We're celebrating the milestone of a 13-YEAR-OLD GIRL who's probably already crossed that river, so to speak, if not at the moment.

It just struck me as odd. Unfamiliar, I guess, not having been exposed to that side of my parents' faith.

hedonist, if you want to read a very funny book, check out A.J. Jacobs' "A Year of Living Biblically". In it, to draw attention to the antiquation of the bible, he undergoes a challenge to live according to the commandments in the Torah and deals with maintaining that lifestyle in New York City (spoiler: hilarity ensues). There is indeed a commandment that has been taken to mean that a man may not sit anywhere deemed "unclean" - which, biblical scholars say, means a seat which has been sat on by a woman who has had her period within the last five days (correct me if I'm wrong on the length of time). Ultra-Orthodox Jews would take that one step further, and say how could anyone ever be sure of the cleanliness of a seat? Therefore, they would only use their own seats, or sit in private institutions. Women aren't exactly leaving Post-It notes where they've sat, and I would assume they aren't announcing when they're having their periods. Jacobs' wife, who did not like the obtrusive nature of this project, smiled when he got home from his first day of the experiment, and he curiously inquired why she was so smug. Her response was something along the lines of "I'm having my period. And I sat everywhere."

I read that one! It was pretty amusing, and not ENTIRELY demeaning. He learned a few lessons that improved his life, namely, not taking things for granted and being thankful. Before we judge too heavily, let's all remember that many of our grandparents were racist to varying degrees and it usually didn't stop them from being loving caregivers.

badbrains said:

chadwick said:

i don't ever wanna offend anyone. i just don't get it, why women are second class citizens with these cultures. sure one could say it isn't any of my business & it isn't. but damn it isn't right & women are fantastic & should be leaders & equals althroughout the world. oppressing girls & women drives me up a fucking wall. instantly i have no respect for men who live this way

You hit dead on the head Chadwick, it is a culture thing not religious. I'd love for any Muslim circassian to try to use that stick on a circassian woman. First off, if the woman doesn't get him, the entire tribe will.

The impetus to raise one's kids with such beliefs is cultural but it has it's origin and justification in the "holy" texts!! I believe we have to attack at the source, and the source is ancient ideologies. Why should a harmful, pain causing, belief get a pass just because it is tied to religion? It is time to stand up to these backward belief systems and the old shrivs that espouse them.

PJ_Soul

Thanks for starting the thread btw, rgambs. I think this is an important issue... one that needs to be discussed. I feel like many want to avoid the subject, but I hope people don't, because the only way things can get better is if people confront it without fear of being accused of bigotry, etc. The subjugation of women in the Muslim world IS a fact - one that pretty much punches us in the face - and PCism gets in the way of improvement IMO.

rgambs

PJ_Soul said:

rgambs said:

Personal story, short version: I worked in surgery for several years with some Muslim men from Morocco. Let me tell you, they were visibly uncomfortable with being under the authority of strong women and were not bashful about expressing it. It really chapped their asses to be disciplined by female nurses, they made snide comments about female doctors, and showed nothing but respect for the male doctors. They explained to me that their women are loved and cherished over many conversations, but never did they express sentiments that they were respected or held as equals. Most of them held Asian women as their ideal, and they were not afraid to admit that they preferred demure women to the bold empowered style of many American women. All that being said, they were good guys, good people all of them.

I am in a position where I have to give bad news to university students all the time - i.e. no, you can't do what you want to do and you're going to fail your course. That kind of thing. There are many male Muslim students here, and I can say that in almost all cases, these men do not take kindly to having a woman tell them no. They will argue, bully, in some cases yell and threaten. Once I was even sent a letter from a lawyer by one of them, lol. But as soon as a man takes over they are perfectly agreeable. I would say, from my experiences, a lot of Muslim men really are not into having women be in charge of things. Not all, of course. Let's just assume that anything I ever say on this subject is a generalization, kay? I've had many female professors and tutors and co-workers say the same thing of Muslim men. It's actually considered a problem at the university. Oh, and issues about Muslim men who are unwilling to work with female student peers in class has become a common incident that OMBUDS has to deal with (for the record, the school does NOT accommodate those requests). This is clearly a pattern, and it's disturbing to me that most of these guys are young - in their early 20s. I'm sad that these kinds of attitudes are being taught to younger generations.

South American men are often complained of in similar ways. To over-generalize, their hang-ups with women are usually more closely tied to sexualization.

Jason P

rgambs said:

This thread seemed like it might have some interest based off the debate in Beheaded by ISIS thread.
Just to kick it off, here's a quote each from the Old and New Testament.
Genesis Chapter 3 Verse 16 "...and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."
1 Timothy Chapter 2 Verse 12 "I permit no woman to teach or have authority over man; she is to keep silent."

Ahhh, one can only dream of such days

Our first mistake was going from "thee" and 'thy" to "you". That extra "e" carried a lot of weight with it. I'll address this issue at our next meeting.

badbrains

Ok ok ok, we all know Islam sucks balls and is the devils religion. Thanks for pointing that out for us. So I guess Islam represents ALL of the abrahamic religions. Awesome, a discussion on abrahamic religions has turned into a gang bang on Islam. That's some debate you guys are having. Mite want to change the threads tittle.

PJ_Soul

Okay, so I'm going to post some of the more controversial verses from the Qur'an now. I know that certain people try to claim that Islam holds women equal to men.... I just need to post what bluntly contradicts that theory. To be honest, to suggest that Islam or the Qur'an places women as equal to men is about as nonsensical as trying to claim that the Bible does the same thing. I know you are trying to separate religion and culture badbrains, but this not even possible when referring to Islam. Culture and Islam are intertwined to a huge degree. I don't believe that you can separate the two as cleanly as you seem to want to. Islamic culture is reality. If there is some line in the holy text that contradicts cultural behaviour/law, then so what?? But without further ado:

"Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."
Qur'an 4:34

"If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice."
Qur'an 4:3

"O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee; and daughters of thy paternal uncles and aunts, and daughters of thy maternal uncles and aunts, who migrated (from Makka) with thee; and any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her;- this only for thee, and not for the Believers (at large); We know what We have appointed for them as to their wives and the captives whom their right hands possess;- in order that there should be no difficulty for thee. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
Qur'an 33:50

"O you who believe! when you deal with each other in contracting a debt for a fixed time, then write it down; and let a scribe write it down between you with fairness; and the scribe should not refuse to write as Allah has taught him, so he should write; and let him who owes the debt dictate, and he should be careful of (his duty to) Allah, his Lord, and not diminish anything from it; but if he who owes the debt is unsound in understanding, or weak, or (if) he is not able to dictate himself, let his guardian dictate with fairness; and call in to witness from among your men two witnesses; but if there are not two men, then one man and two women from among those whom you choose to be witnesses, so that if one of the two errs, the second of the two may remind the other; and the witnesses should not refuse when they are summoned; and be not averse to writing it (whether it is) small or large, with the time of its falling due; this is more equitable in the sight of Allah and assures greater accuracy in testimony, and the nearest (way) that you may not entertain doubts (afterwards), except when it is ready merchandise which you give and take among yourselves from hand to hand, then there is no blame on you in not writing it down; and have witnesses when you barter with one another, and let no harm be done to the scribe or to the witness; and if you do (it) then surely it will be a transgression in you, and be careful of (your duty) to Allah, Allah teaches you, and Allah knows all things."
Qur'an 2:282

"Allah enjoins you concerning your children: The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females; then if they are more than two females, they shall have two-thirds of what the deceased has left, and if there is one, she shall have the half; and as for his parents, each of them shall have the sixth of what he has left if he has a child, but if he has no child and (only) his two parents inherit him, then his mother shall have the third; but if he has brothers, then his mother shall have the sixth after (the payment of) a bequest he may have bequeathed or a debt; your parents and your children, you know not which of them is the nearer to you in usefulness; this is an ordinance from Allah: Surely Allah is Knowing, Wise."
Qur'an 4:11

"Your women are your fields, so go into your fields whichever way you like . . . ." (MAS Abdel Haleem, The Qur’an, Oxford UP, 2004)

". . . Wives have the same rights as the husbands have on them in accordance with the generally known principles. Of course, men are a degree above them in status . . . " (Sayyid Abul A’La Maududi, The Meaning of the Qur’an, vol. 1, p. 165)

"The share of the male shall be twice that of a female . . . ." (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 311)

badbrains

Pjsoul, u an atheist?

rgambs

badbrains said:

Ok ok ok, we all know Islam sucks balls and is the devils religion. Thanks for pointing that out for us. So I guess Islam represents ALL of the abrahamic religions. Awesome, a discussion on abrahamic religions has turned into a gang bang on Islam. That's some debate you guys are having. Mite want to change the threads tittle.

Not quite. The original post was related to Christianity and Judaism. There have been several mentions of Judaism and Christianty since, and several endicting all 3. I even threw in SA. The fact of the matter is that the largely Muslim nations currently have poor records in regard to this issue, and will be thusly represented.

hedonist

badbrains said:

Ok ok ok, we all know Islam sucks balls and is the devils religion. Thanks for pointing that out for us. So I guess Islam represents ALL of the abrahamic religions. Awesome, a discussion on abrahamic religions has turned into a gang bang on Islam. That's some debate you guys are having. Mite want to change the threads tittle.

For me, BB...I'm looking at it somewhat personally (at least initially), from the side of religion with which I was raised. And I'm open to hearing about situations in other regions and religions. Even other cultures, religion aside.

No gang-banging from here!

It's an interesting subject, at least from this woman's point of view