Ok ok ok, we all know Islam sucks balls and is the devils religion. Thanks for pointing that out for us. So I guess Islam represents ALL of the abrahamic religions. Awesome, a discussion on abrahamic religions has turned into a gang bang on Islam. That's some debate you guys are having. Mite want to change the threads tittle.
I can't speak for others, but I am discussing shit that's wrong. You seem pretty happy to "gang bang" all kinds of other things, but for some reason pointing out the flaws and problems related to inequality for women in Islam is off limits.
You know, discussing the problems doesn't discount all good things. I'm sorry you are so touchy about this subject, but it's an important subject that needs to be confronted if any positive change will ever happen. You know, there are Muslims who face the facts too.... And btw, other religions and culture have and still are fighting the same kind of battle. Women's rights have to be FOUGHT for. Sorry if you're upset that Islam/Muslim culture is the prevalent culture that still largely embraces the subjugation of women, but that's the reality of it. It doesn't mean that anyone thinks every Muslim man is like this, but it's definitely and obviously a big problem, so it's not helpful to bury your head in the sand and keep talking about respect for women. I respect women IMMENSLEY, which is why this subject upsets me so much and I'm so passionate about it. Because I want all Muslim women, everywhere, to have equality. That doesn't mean I don't know some already do. I'm thinking of all those who DON'T. Not sure how you can be offended by someone caring strongly about the plight of women in the world (muslim or otherwise). That is my ONLY concern. I don't care if I happen to insult Muslims, Christians, Jews, or anyone else in the process.
PS - I think ALL organized religion sucks balls.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I was explicit in calling out Islam, Jusiasm and Christianity in my little comment. I'm definitely not someone who thinks Islam is the "devil's religion" since I don't believe in any of that devil malarky anyway. I'm equal opportunity in my derision for religions.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
Ok ok ok, we all know Islam sucks balls and is the devils religion. Thanks for pointing that out for us. So I guess Islam represents ALL of the abrahamic religions. Awesome, a discussion on abrahamic religions has turned into a gang bang on Islam. That's some debate you guys are having. Mite want to change the threads tittle.
For me, BB...I'm looking at it somewhat personally (at least initially), from the side of religion with which I was raised. And I'm open to hearing about situations in other regions and religions. Even other cultures, religion aside.
No gang-banging from here!
It's an interesting subject, at least from this woman's point of view
You're always a class act hedonist. Much respect for you.
It's so weird when I hear people talk about Islam in way I was never taught. It's almost as if they're talking about a completely different religion. That's why I get so "butt hurt" when I read some of the shit that people say. Especially if they act all holier then thou and single out 1 religion in a discussion of many religions. Seems so disingenuous to do that. But to each his/her own. And in NO WAY should I be the one representing Islam because I'm not really religious. But when I see people fabricating or making up numbers in their heads to justify some logic, I'm gonna call shit on it. And I haven't had to call shit on any of your posts.
Ok ok ok, we all know Islam sucks balls and is the devils religion. Thanks for pointing that out for us. So I guess Islam represents ALL of the abrahamic religions. Awesome, a discussion on abrahamic religions has turned into a gang bang on Islam. That's some debate you guys are having. Mite want to change the threads tittle.
I can't speak for others, but I am discussing shit that's wrong. You seem pretty happy to "gang bang" all kinds of other things, but for some reason pointing out the flaws and problems related to inequality for women in Islam is off limits.
You know, discussing the problems doesn't discount all good things. I'm sorry you are so touchy about this subject, but it's an important subject that needs to be confronted if any positive change will ever happen. You know, there are Muslims who face the facts too.... And btw, other religions and culture have and still are fighting the same kind of battle. Women's rights have to be FOUGHT for. Sorry if you're upset that Islam/Muslim culture is the prevalent culture that still largely embraces the subjugation of women, but that's the reality of it. It doesn't mean that anyone thinks every Muslim man is like this, but it's definitely and obviously a big problem, so it's not helpful to bury your head in the sand and keep talking about respect for women. I respect women IMMENSLEY, which is why this subject upsets me so much and I'm so passionate about it. Because I want all Muslim women, everywhere, to have equality. That doesn't mean I don't know some already do. I'm thinking of all those who DON'T. Not sure how you can be offended by someone caring strongly about the plight of women in the world (muslim or otherwise). That is my ONLY concern. I don't care if I happen to insult Muslims, Christians, Jews, or anyone else in the process.
PS - I think ALL organized religion sucks balls.
But I'm gonna single out Islam and make it MY crusade to show everyone how awful this religion is. You're doing a great job.
Care to answer my question from earlier that you've ignored? You an atheist, Christian? Jew? Know you're DEF not Muslim.
I think the subjugation of women is equally represented in the texts of the Abrahamic religions. For that reason it makes me slightly uncomfortable to single out Islamic cultures, but it must be done. It is the one out of the three with its hooks sunk the deepest into humanity, particularly in government institutions, and we have to eradicate the nastier aspects of it's effects.
Ok ok ok, we all know Islam sucks balls and is the devils religion. Thanks for pointing that out for us. So I guess Islam represents ALL of the abrahamic religions. Awesome, a discussion on abrahamic religions has turned into a gang bang on Islam. That's some debate you guys are having. Mite want to change the threads tittle.
Part of the reason this discussion is so Islam-centric (at least with respect to the university example given), believe it or not, I would say has to do with devout Muslims' willingness to immerse themselves in modern society. In my five years at university, I did not see many kippahs (aka yarmukas) in classes. My apologies for not knowing the name of the male headdress worn by many Muslims in North America (it looks similar to a do rag), but I did see a large number of them over my years.
Those who would wear kippahs on a regular basis would probably be defined as fairly devout Conservative Jews - who are often far more liberal than the more observant Orthodox Jewish community. Orthodox Jews were all but absent within the university campus I was at: I would assume they would be typically opting to go to Yeshivas (Jewish places of post-secondary study which focus on learning and analyzing the Talmud and its numerous interpretations). My point is that the communities of Orthodox Jewry are largely groups who keep to themselves for the duration of their entire lives. If there is a skew in the visibility of the discussion about sexism between Islam and other religions, I would guess it is because of the visibility of the sexism itself, not the amount or intensity of the sexism.
Don't get me wrong though, badbrains, people are often quick to jump to conclusions when it comes to female roles in Islam, but I think what I wrote above has some impact in it.
Post edited by benjs on
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Ok ok ok, we all know Islam sucks balls and is the devils religion. Thanks for pointing that out for us. So I guess Islam represents ALL of the abrahamic religions. Awesome, a discussion on abrahamic religions has turned into a gang bang on Islam. That's some debate you guys are having. Mite want to change the threads tittle.
I can't speak for others, but I am discussing shit that's wrong. You seem pretty happy to "gang bang" all kinds of other things, but for some reason pointing out the flaws and problems related to inequality for women in Islam is off limits.
You know, discussing the problems doesn't discount all good things. I'm sorry you are so touchy about this subject, but it's an important subject that needs to be confronted if any positive change will ever happen. You know, there are Muslims who face the facts too.... And btw, other religions and culture have and still are fighting the same kind of battle. Women's rights have to be FOUGHT for. Sorry if you're upset that Islam/Muslim culture is the prevalent culture that still largely embraces the subjugation of women, but that's the reality of it. It doesn't mean that anyone thinks every Muslim man is like this, but it's definitely and obviously a big problem, so it's not helpful to bury your head in the sand and keep talking about respect for women. I respect women IMMENSLEY, which is why this subject upsets me so much and I'm so passionate about it. Because I want all Muslim women, everywhere, to have equality. That doesn't mean I don't know some already do. I'm thinking of all those who DON'T. Not sure how you can be offended by someone caring strongly about the plight of women in the world (muslim or otherwise). That is my ONLY concern. I don't care if I happen to insult Muslims, Christians, Jews, or anyone else in the process.
PS - I think ALL organized religion sucks balls.
And what threads are u implying I'm involved in gang bangen?
I think the focus on Muslims when it comes to this topic comes from the fact that in present times that is the major culture/religion that still supports some pretty extreme cases of subjugation. It is the group of women who are most in need of change right now, since Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality. I am VERY aware of female inequality in my OWN culture (can't say in my religion because I don't have one), but women's rights is light years ahead in western nations compared to where it is in the middle east and southeast Asia (my theory is that this is partly because of separation of church and state in the west). I mean, women were only just granted the right to DRIVE in UAE. India is only just now starting to pay attention to men who rape women. Now where do we think that attention needs to go?? THAT is why we're talking about Muslims badbrains.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Ok ok ok, we all know Islam sucks balls and is the devils religion. Thanks for pointing that out for us. So I guess Islam represents ALL of the abrahamic religions. Awesome, a discussion on abrahamic religions has turned into a gang bang on Islam. That's some debate you guys are having. Mite want to change the threads tittle.
Part of the reason this discussion is so Islam-centric (at least with respect to the university example given), believe it or not, I would say has to do with devout Muslims' willingness to immerse themselves in modern society. In my five years at university, I did not see many kippahs (aka yarmukas) in classes. My apologies for not knowing the name of the male headdress worn by many Muslims in North America (it looks similar to a do rag), but I did see a large number of them over my years.
Those who would wear kippahs on a regular basis would probably be defined as fairly devout Conservative Jews - who are often far more liberal than the more observant Orthodox Jewish community. Orthodox Jews were all but absent within the university campus I was at: I would assume they would be typically opting to go to Yeshivas (Jewish places of post-secondary study which focus on learning and analyzing the Talmud and its numerous interpretations). My point is that the communities of Orthodox Jewry are largely groups who keep to themselves for the duration of their entire lives. If there is a skew in the visibility of the discussion about sexism between Islam and other religions, I would guess it is because of the visibility of the sexism itself, not the amount or intensity of the sexism.
Don't get me wrong though, badbrains, people are often quick to jump to conclusions when it comes to female roles in Islam, but I think what I wrote above has some impact in it.
I think the eradication of 6 million Jews plays it's part too! The number of fundamentalist believers today would likely be much higher had they not taken such a terrible hit in the '40s.
I think the focus on Muslims when it comes to this topic comes from the fact that in present times that is the major culture/religion that still supports some pretty extreme cases of subjugation. It is the group of women who are most in need of change right now, since Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality. I am VERY aware of female inequality in my OWN culture (can't say in my religion because I don't have one), but women's rights is light years ahead in western nations compared to where it is in the middle east and southeast Asia (my theory is that this is partly because of separation of church and state in the west). I mean, women were only just granted the right to DRIVE in UAE. India is only just now starting to pay attention to men who rape women. Now where do we think that attention needs to go?? THAT is why we're talking about Muslims badbrains.
I think the focus on Muslims when it comes to this topic comes from the fact that in present times that is the major culture/religion that still supports some pretty extreme cases of subjugation. It is the group of women who are most in need of change right now, since Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality. I am VERY aware of female inequality in my OWN culture (can't say in my religion because I don't have one), but women's rights is light years ahead in western nations compared to where it is in the middle east and southeast Asia (my theory is that this is partly because of separation of church and state in the west). I mean, women were only just granted the right to DRIVE in UAE. India is only just now starting to pay attention to men who rape women. Now where do we think that attention needs to go?? THAT is why we're talking about Muslims badbrains.
Wait, women ARENT allowed to drive in Islam? Wtf? They had cars 1000 years ago? FYI, Hinduism is the predominate religion in India. Maybe you meant Pakistan? I know it's hard to tell the difference between brown people.
I think the focus on Muslims when it comes to this topic comes from the fact that in present times that is the major culture/religion that still supports some pretty extreme cases of subjugation. It is the group of women who are most in need of change right now, since Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality. I am VERY aware of female inequality in my OWN culture (can't say in my religion because I don't have one), but women's rights is light years ahead in western nations compared to where it is in the middle east and southeast Asia (my theory is that this is partly because of separation of church and state in the west). I mean, women were only just granted the right to DRIVE in UAE. India is only just now starting to pay attention to men who rape women. Now where do we think that attention needs to go?? THAT is why we're talking about Muslims badbrains.
Wait, women ARENT allowed to drive in Islam? Wtf? They had cars 1000 years ago? FYI, Hinduism is the predominate religion in India. Maybe you meant Pakistan? I know it's hard to tell the difference between brown people.
Come on now! That's quite a leap BB try not to take it personal and try not to make it personal!
Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
0
Options
hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
Ok ok ok, we all know Islam sucks balls and is the devils religion. Thanks for pointing that out for us. So I guess Islam represents ALL of the abrahamic religions. Awesome, a discussion on abrahamic religions has turned into a gang bang on Islam. That's some debate you guys are having. Mite want to change the threads tittle.
Part of the reason this discussion is so Islam-centric (at least with respect to the university example given), believe it or not, I would say has to do with devout Muslims' willingness to immerse themselves in modern society. In my five years at university, I did not see many kippahs (aka yarmukas) in classes. My apologies for not knowing the name of the male headdress worn by many Muslims in North America (it looks similar to a do rag), but I did see a large number of them over my years.
Those who would wear kippahs on a regular basis would probably be defined as fairly devout Conservative Jews - who are often far more liberal than the more observant Orthodox Jewish community. Orthodox Jews were all but absent within the university campus I was at: I would assume they would be typically opting to go to Yeshivas (Jewish places of post-secondary study which focus on learning and analyzing the Talmud and its numerous interpretations). My point is that the communities of Orthodox Jewry are largely groups who keep to themselves for the duration of their entire lives. If there is a skew in the visibility of the discussion about sexism between Islam and other religions, I would guess it is because of the visibility of the sexism itself, not the amount or intensity of the sexism.
Don't get me wrong though, badbrains, people are often quick to jump to conclusions when it comes to female roles in Islam, but I think what I wrote above has some impact in it.
I think the eradication of 6 million Jews plays it's part too! The number of fundamentalist believers today would likely be much higher had they not taken such a terrible hit in the '40s.
Please tell me you're not saying that it's a good thing those six million died, and that they were all fundamentalists.
I apologize if this isn't what you meant (I'd be surprised if it did), but that's what it sounds like to me.
I think the focus on Muslims when it comes to this topic comes from the fact that in present times that is the major culture/religion that still supports some pretty extreme cases of subjugation. It is the group of women who are most in need of change right now, since Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality. I am VERY aware of female inequality in my OWN culture (can't say in my religion because I don't have one), but women's rights is light years ahead in western nations compared to where it is in the middle east and southeast Asia (my theory is that this is partly because of separation of church and state in the west). I mean, women were only just granted the right to DRIVE in UAE. India is only just now starting to pay attention to men who rape women. Now where do we think that attention needs to go?? THAT is why we're talking about Muslims badbrains.
Yes, that's true. Of course southeast Asia isn't only India. I only mentioned India because of all the stuff about rape in the news. Islam is one of the major religions in southeast Asia. Isn't a big majority of Indonesia Muslim? But I'm not about to discount the problems for Hindu and Sikh women either btw. Women's inequality is a major problem among those groups too. Again, I do NOT exclude any of opinions here from other religions. I thought I already said that. But it is kind of our focus here....
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
oh nononononono sorry if it sounded like that!! I didnt mean they were all fundamentalists, or that it was good that they died! I only meant that there would be a greater population of fundamentalist Jews today, thus increasing visibility of the related womens issues among Judaism. Take the heat off Islam a bit so to speak. More fundamentalists is never a good thing, but again, i dont mean that as approval of genocide! No way jose!
Ok ok ok, we all know Islam sucks balls and is the devils religion. Thanks for pointing that out for us. So I guess Islam represents ALL of the abrahamic religions. Awesome, a discussion on abrahamic religions has turned into a gang bang on Islam. That's some debate you guys are having. Mite want to change the threads tittle.
Part of the reason this discussion is so Islam-centric (at least with respect to the university example given), believe it or not, I would say has to do with devout Muslims' willingness to immerse themselves in modern society. In my five years at university, I did not see many kippahs (aka yarmukas) in classes. My apologies for not knowing the name of the male headdress worn by many Muslims in North America (it looks similar to a do rag), but I did see a large number of them over my years.
Those who would wear kippahs on a regular basis would probably be defined as fairly devout Conservative Jews - who are often far more liberal than the more observant Orthodox Jewish community. Orthodox Jews were all but absent within the university campus I was at: I would assume they would be typically opting to go to Yeshivas (Jewish places of post-secondary study which focus on learning and analyzing the Talmud and its numerous interpretations). My point is that the communities of Orthodox Jewry are largely groups who keep to themselves for the duration of their entire lives. If there is a skew in the visibility of the discussion about sexism between Islam and other religions, I would guess it is because of the visibility of the sexism itself, not the amount or intensity of the sexism.
Don't get me wrong though, badbrains, people are often quick to jump to conclusions when it comes to female roles in Islam, but I think what I wrote above has some impact in it.
I think the eradication of 6 million Jews plays it's part too! The number of fundamentalist believers today would likely be much higher had they not taken such a terrible hit in the '40s.
Please tell me you're not saying that it's a good thing those six million died, and that they were all fundamentalists.
I apologize if this isn't what you meant (I'd be surprised if it did), but that's what it sounds like to me.
I didn't perceive that message that way at all - it sounded to me like, of those 6 million murdered (not to mention the offspring which would have been produced), the Jewish population perhaps wouldn't have been as small as it is today. With that, there would be greater exposure to sexism within the Jewish religion.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
0
Options
hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
oh nononononono sorry if it sounded like that!! I didnt mean they were all fundamentalists, or that it was good that they died! I only meant that there would be a greater population of fundamentalist Jews today, thus increasing visibility of the related womens issues among Judaism. Take the heat off Islam a bit so to speak. More fundamentalists is never a good thing, but again, i dont mean that as approval of genocide! No way jose!
I didn't think so, given many of your posts. Still...whew
I think the focus on Muslims when it comes to this topic comes from the fact that in present times that is the major culture/religion that still supports some pretty extreme cases of subjugation. It is the group of women who are most in need of change right now, since Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality. I am VERY aware of female inequality in my OWN culture (can't say in my religion because I don't have one), but women's rights is light years ahead in western nations compared to where it is in the middle east and southeast Asia (my theory is that this is partly because of separation of church and state in the west). I mean, women were only just granted the right to DRIVE in UAE. India is only just now starting to pay attention to men who rape women. Now where do we think that attention needs to go?? THAT is why we're talking about Muslims badbrains.
Wait, women ARENT allowed to drive in Islam? Wtf? They had cars 1000 years ago? FYI, Hinduism is the predominate religion in India. Maybe you meant Pakistan? I know it's hard to tell the difference between brown people.
Come on now! That's quite a leap BB try not to take it personal and try not to make it personal!
I think the focus on Muslims when it comes to this topic comes from the fact that in present times that is the major culture/religion that still supports some pretty extreme cases of subjugation. It is the group of women who are most in need of change right now, since Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality. I am VERY aware of female inequality in my OWN culture (can't say in my religion because I don't have one), but women's rights is light years ahead in western nations compared to where it is in the middle east and southeast Asia (my theory is that this is partly because of separation of church and state in the west). I mean, women were only just granted the right to DRIVE in UAE. India is only just now starting to pay attention to men who rape women. Now where do we think that attention needs to go?? THAT is why we're talking about Muslims badbrains.
Yes, that's true. Of course southeast Asia isn't only India. I only mentioned India because of all the stuff about rape in the news. Islam is one of the major religions in southeast Asia. Isn't a big majority of Indonesia Muslim? But I'm not about to discount the problems for Hindu and Sikh women either btw. Women's inequality is a major problem among those groups too. Again, I do NOT exclude any of opinions here from other religions. I thought I already said that. But it is kind of our focus here....
You would think someone who works in "university" would know the difference between India and Pakistan. And Hinduism and Islam.
oh nononononono sorry if it sounded like that!! I didnt mean they were all fundamentalists, or that it was good that they died! I only meant that there would be a greater population of fundamentalist Jews today, thus increasing visibility of the related womens issues among Judaism. Take the heat off Islam a bit so to speak. More fundamentalists is never a good thing, but again, i dont mean that as approval of genocide! No way jose!
I didn't read it like that either. And you are likely right. The holocaust probably did play a big role in the leaps that Jews have taken when it comes to this subject.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
oh nononononono sorry if it sounded like that!! I didnt mean they were all fundamentalists, or that it was good that they died! I only meant that there would be a greater population of fundamentalist Jews today, thus increasing visibility of the related womens issues among Judaism. Take the heat off Islam a bit so to speak. More fundamentalists is never a good thing, but again, i dont mean that as approval of genocide! No way jose!
I didn't read it like that either. And you are likely right. The holocaust probably did play a big role in the leaps that Jews have taken when it comes to this subject.
I wasn't speaking to progress, only visibility... It wasn't even a point worth making lol
Ok ok ok, we all know Islam sucks balls and is the devils religion. Thanks for pointing that out for us. So I guess Islam represents ALL of the abrahamic religions. Awesome, a discussion on abrahamic religions has turned into a gang bang on Islam. That's some debate you guys are having. Mite want to change the threads tittle.
I can't speak for others, but I am discussing shit that's wrong. You seem pretty happy to "gang bang" all kinds of other things, but for some reason pointing out the flaws and problems related to inequality for women in Islam is off limits.
You know, discussing the problems doesn't discount all good things. I'm sorry you are so touchy about this subject, but it's an important subject that needs to be confronted if any positive change will ever happen. You know, there are Muslims who face the facts too.... And btw, other religions and culture have and still are fighting the same kind of battle. Women's rights have to be FOUGHT for. Sorry if you're upset that Islam/Muslim culture is the prevalent culture that still largely embraces the subjugation of women, but that's the reality of it. It doesn't mean that anyone thinks every Muslim man is like this, but it's definitely and obviously a big problem, so it's not helpful to bury your head in the sand and keep talking about respect for women. I respect women IMMENSLEY, which is why this subject upsets me so much and I'm so passionate about it. Because I want all Muslim women, everywhere, to have equality. That doesn't mean I don't know some already do. I'm thinking of all those who DON'T. Not sure how you can be offended by someone caring strongly about the plight of women in the world (muslim or otherwise). That is my ONLY concern. I don't care if I happen to insult Muslims, Christians, Jews, or anyone else in the process.
PS - I think ALL organized religion sucks balls.
But I'm gonna single out Islam and make it MY crusade to show everyone how awful this religion is. You're doing a great job.
Care to answer my question from earlier that you've ignored? You an atheist, Christian? Jew? Know you're DEF not Muslim.
I didn't see your question at all actually. I thought it was pretty obvious that I'm an Atheist. Let's not make it personal, kay? I don't hate Muslims. I hate the bad things in Muslim/Islamic culture, just like I hate the bad things in other cultures and religions. That doesn't mean I don't know it's isn't all bad. Of course not.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I think the focus on Muslims when it comes to this topic comes from the fact that in present times that is the major culture/religion that still supports some pretty extreme cases of subjugation. It is the group of women who are most in need of change right now, since Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality. I am VERY aware of female inequality in my OWN culture (can't say in my religion because I don't have one), but women's rights is light years ahead in western nations compared to where it is in the middle east and southeast Asia (my theory is that this is partly because of separation of church and state in the west). I mean, women were only just granted the right to DRIVE in UAE. India is only just now starting to pay attention to men who rape women. Now where do we think that attention needs to go?? THAT is why we're talking about Muslims badbrains.
Yes, that's true. Of course southeast Asia isn't only India. I only mentioned India because of all the stuff about rape in the news. Islam is one of the major religions in southeast Asia. Isn't a big majority of Indonesia Muslim? But I'm not about to discount the problems for Hindu and Sikh women either btw. Women's inequality is a major problem among those groups too. Again, I do NOT exclude any of opinions here from other religions. I thought I already said that. But it is kind of our focus here....
I would be very reticent to classify India as Southeast Asia: at least culturally, it is incredibly different. And yes, Indonesia and Malaysia are predominantly Muslim (and while I can't speak for the Indonesian Muslims, the Malaysian Muslims I met - male and female - were an absolute pleasure to be around, and I got no sense of inequalities). The reason I chose to respond to the India comment is because of your opening and closing statements ("I think the focus on Muslims when it comes to this topic comes from the fact that in present times that is the major culture/religion that still supports some pretty extreme cases of subjugation" and "THAT is why we're talking about Muslims badbrains"). Surely you can see why the India comment (while it may be true) didn't belong sandwiched between sentences like that.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
You would think someone who works in "university" would know the difference between India and Pakistan. And Hinduism and Islam.
Uhhh... I do know the difference. Not sure what you're saying. That there are no Muslims in India? There are millions and millions of them. What's with the quotes on university? Stop sniping at me. It's so pointless.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
oh nononononono sorry if it sounded like that!! I didnt mean they were all fundamentalists, or that it was good that they died! I only meant that there would be a greater population of fundamentalist Jews today, thus increasing visibility of the related womens issues among Judaism. Take the heat off Islam a bit so to speak. More fundamentalists is never a good thing, but again, i dont mean that as approval of genocide! No way jose!
I didn't think so, given many of your posts. Still...whew
Thank you for clarifying.
I did have that one terribly-timed, horribly-placed rant you called me out on one time, I was pretty embarrassed about that, but most of us get heated and say regrettable things online at one point or another :-)
I mean, women were only just granted the right to DRIVE in UAE. India is only just now starting to pay attention to men who rape women. Now where do we think that attention needs to go?? THAT is why we're talking about Muslims badbrains.
You did say this right? You lumped India in with Islam so I figured I'd correct you.
I think the focus on Muslims when it comes to this topic comes from the fact that in present times that is the major culture/religion that still supports some pretty extreme cases of subjugation. It is the group of women who are most in need of change right now, since Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality. I am VERY aware of female inequality in my OWN culture (can't say in my religion because I don't have one), but women's rights is light years ahead in western nations compared to where it is in the middle east and southeast Asia (my theory is that this is partly because of separation of church and state in the west). I mean, women were only just granted the right to DRIVE in UAE. India is only just now starting to pay attention to men who rape women. Now where do we think that attention needs to go?? THAT is why we're talking about Muslims badbrains.
Yes, that's true. Of course southeast Asia isn't only India. I only mentioned India because of all the stuff about rape in the news. Islam is one of the major religions in southeast Asia. Isn't a big majority of Indonesia Muslim? But I'm not about to discount the problems for Hindu and Sikh women either btw. Women's inequality is a major problem among those groups too. Again, I do NOT exclude any of opinions here from other religions. I thought I already said that. But it is kind of our focus here....
I would be very reticent to classify India as Southeast Asia: at least culturally, it is incredibly different. And yes, Indonesia and Malaysia are predominantly Muslim (and while I can't speak for the Indonesian Muslims, the Malaysian Muslims I met - male and female - were an absolute pleasure to be around, and I got no sense of inequalities). The reason I chose to respond to the India comment is because of your opening and closing statements ("I think the focus on Muslims when it comes to this topic comes from the fact that in present times that is the major culture/religion that still supports some pretty extreme cases of subjugation" and "THAT is why we're talking about Muslims badbrains"). Surely you can see why the India comment (while it may be true) didn't belong sandwiched between sentences like that.
Sure, I guess. But there are still something like 180 million Muslims in India, so you know... I think people are making too much of some comment that I admittedly should have made more clear (and which I clarified). Also, I am aware that there are very nice Muslims, lol. I mentioned in the other thread that I have been in a relationship with a Muslim man and never once did he make me feel like I wasn't equal to him. I have known many Muslims who are my friends. So how many times do I have to qualify what I'm saying here so that people don't just assume I'm just a fucking bigot rather than someone who is speaking for women's equality? Just checking...
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I mean, women were only just granted the right to DRIVE in UAE. India is only just now starting to pay attention to men who rape women. Now where do we think that attention needs to go?? THAT is why we're talking about Muslims badbrains.
You did say this right? You lumped India in with Islam so I figured I'd correct you.
There are a lot of Muslims in India. A lot of Sikhs and Hindus too. I've already said this. Can we move on?
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I think the focus on Muslims when it comes to this topic comes from the fact that in present times that is the major culture/religion that still supports some pretty extreme cases of subjugation. It is the group of women who are most in need of change right now, since Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality. I am VERY aware of female inequality in my OWN culture (can't say in my religion because I don't have one), but women's rights is light years ahead in western nations compared to where it is in the middle east and southeast Asia (my theory is that this is partly because of separation of church and state in the west). I mean, women were only just granted the right to DRIVE in UAE. India is only just now starting to pay attention to men who rape women. Now where do we think that attention needs to go?? THAT is why we're talking about Muslims badbrains.
Yes, that's true. Of course southeast Asia isn't only India. I only mentioned India because of all the stuff about rape in the news. Islam is one of the major religions in southeast Asia. Isn't a big majority of Indonesia Muslim? But I'm not about to discount the problems for Hindu and Sikh women either btw. Women's inequality is a major problem among those groups too. Again, I do NOT exclude any of opinions here from other religions. I thought I already said that. But it is kind of our focus here....
I would be very reticent to classify India as Southeast Asia: at least culturally, it is incredibly different. And yes, Indonesia and Malaysia are predominantly Muslim (and while I can't speak for the Indonesian Muslims, the Malaysian Muslims I met - male and female - were an absolute pleasure to be around, and I got no sense of inequalities). The reason I chose to respond to the India comment is because of your opening and closing statements ("I think the focus on Muslims when it comes to this topic comes from the fact that in present times that is the major culture/religion that still supports some pretty extreme cases of subjugation" and "THAT is why we're talking about Muslims badbrains"). Surely you can see why the India comment (while it may be true) didn't belong sandwiched between sentences like that.
Sure, I guess. But there are still something like 180 million Muslims in India, so you know... I think people are making too much of some comment that I admittedly should have made more clear (and which I clarified). Also, I am aware that there are very nice Muslims, lol. I mentioned in the other thread that I have been in a relationship with a Muslim man and never once did he make me feel like I wasn't equal to him. I have known many Muslims who are my friends. So how many times do I have to qualify what I'm saying here so that people don't just assume I'm just a fucking bigot rather than someone who is speaking for women's equality? Just checking...
You should make a qualifying statement as your signature :P
I think the focus on Muslims when it comes to this topic comes from the fact that in present times that is the major culture/religion that still supports some pretty extreme cases of subjugation. It is the group of women who are most in need of change right now, since Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality. I am VERY aware of female inequality in my OWN culture (can't say in my religion because I don't have one), but women's rights is light years ahead in western nations compared to where it is in the middle east and southeast Asia (my theory is that this is partly because of separation of church and state in the west). I mean, women were only just granted the right to DRIVE in UAE. India is only just now starting to pay attention to men who rape women. Now where do we think that attention needs to go?? THAT is why we're talking about Muslims badbrains.
Yes, that's true. Of course southeast Asia isn't only India. I only mentioned India because of all the stuff about rape in the news. Islam is one of the major religions in southeast Asia. Isn't a big majority of Indonesia Muslim? But I'm not about to discount the problems for Hindu and Sikh women either btw. Women's inequality is a major problem among those groups too. Again, I do NOT exclude any of opinions here from other religions. I thought I already said that. But it is kind of our focus here....
I would be very reticent to classify India as Southeast Asia: at least culturally, it is incredibly different. And yes, Indonesia and Malaysia are predominantly Muslim (and while I can't speak for the Indonesian Muslims, the Malaysian Muslims I met - male and female - were an absolute pleasure to be around, and I got no sense of inequalities). The reason I chose to respond to the India comment is because of your opening and closing statements ("I think the focus on Muslims when it comes to this topic comes from the fact that in present times that is the major culture/religion that still supports some pretty extreme cases of subjugation" and "THAT is why we're talking about Muslims badbrains"). Surely you can see why the India comment (while it may be true) didn't belong sandwiched between sentences like that.
Sure, I guess. But there are still something like 180 million Muslims in India, so you know... I think people are making too much of some comment that I admittedly should have made more clear (and which I clarified). Also, I am aware that there are very nice Muslims, lol. I mentioned in the other thread that I have been in a relationship with a Muslim man and never once did he make me feel like I wasn't equal to him. I have known many Muslims who are my friends. So how many times do I have to qualify what I'm saying here so that people don't just assume I'm just a fucking bigot rather than someone who is speaking for women's equality? Just checking...
You should make a qualifying statement as your signature :P
8-}
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I think the focus on Muslims when it comes to this topic comes from the fact that in present times that is the major culture/religion that still supports some pretty extreme cases of subjugation. It is the group of women who are most in need of change right now, since Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality. I am VERY aware of female inequality in my OWN culture (can't say in my religion because I don't have one), but women's rights is light years ahead in western nations compared to where it is in the middle east and southeast Asia (my theory is that this is partly because of separation of church and state in the west). I mean, women were only just granted the right to DRIVE in UAE. India is only just now starting to pay attention to men who rape women. Now where do we think that attention needs to go?? THAT is why we're talking about Muslims badbrains.
You would think someone who works in "university" would know the difference between India and Pakistan. And Hinduism and Islam.
Uhhh... I do know the difference. Not sure what you're saying. That there are no Muslims in India? There are millions and millions of them. What's with the quotes on university? Stop sniping at me. It's so pointless.
PJ_Soul, please see your post on top, and your post below. In your first comment, you seem to imply several different things at once:
1) Islamic culture is the major culture/religion that still supports extreme subjugation. 2) Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality. 3) Women's rights are greater in the Western world than in the Middle East and Southeast Asia, potentially as a byproduct of the separation of church and state in Western culture.
Of these three points, the only evidences you offered included that women were only just granted the right to drive in the UAE, and that India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women.
Your first piece of evidence is valid, and proves the first implication, as well as the second as a byproduct of the third.
Your second piece of evidence is that India - a predominantly Hindu country which does not reside within the boundaries of Southeast Asia (which start east of India) - are now paying attention to men who rape women. How that could prove the first or third implications is beyond me, and the second implication, simply put, I don't understand why it's even there (it's given one sentence) lumped into a post that predominantly reads as one condescending towards Islamic culture.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but based on this trail of logic, you seem to be saying saying:
1) Islamic culture is the major culture/religion that still supports extreme subjugation, as shown by the fact that women were only just granted the right to drive in the UAE. 2) Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality, as shown by the fact that women's rights are greater in the Western world than in the Middle East and Southeast Asia, potentially as a byproduct of the separation of church and state in Western culture, as shown by the fact that women were only just granted the right to drive in the UAE. If you don't mind throwing geography or demographics out the window, you can also add to that the fact that the fact that India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women as evidence. 3) The two pieces of evidence above would then be applied to your third point, that women's rights are greater in the Western world than in the Middle East and Southeast Asia.
These three implication-evidence pairs vary in legitimacy as I explained above, but at best, the evidences are too weak to merit such an unequivocal (or at the very least, overstated) condemnation of Islam for its rights towards women. Honestly, based on this, I struggle to see how anyone would be persuaded to believe what you're trying to propose.
As for your second statement in response to badbrains (which I am assuming is part of the same train of thought as your first statement), I understood this as you trying to say one of:
1) Islamic culture is the major culture/religion that still supports extreme subjugation, as shown by the fact that 13% of India's population is Muslim, and India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women. 2) Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality, as shown by the fact that 13% of India's population is Muslim, and India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women. 3) Women's rights are greater in the Western world than in the Middle East and Southeast Asia, as shown by the fact that 13% of India's population is Muslim, and India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women.
These three just sound like entire gobbledegook to me, but to be fair, maybe you were trying to argue something else at this point and I didn't catch that.
Am I missing something, or are others doing this right now as well? :-?
As always, if I've misunderstood, misconstrued, or failed to apply good logic, please call me out on it!
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Comments
You know, discussing the problems doesn't discount all good things. I'm sorry you are so touchy about this subject, but it's an important subject that needs to be confronted if any positive change will ever happen. You know, there are Muslims who face the facts too.... And btw, other religions and culture have and still are fighting the same kind of battle. Women's rights have to be FOUGHT for. Sorry if you're upset that Islam/Muslim culture is the prevalent culture that still largely embraces the subjugation of women, but that's the reality of it. It doesn't mean that anyone thinks every Muslim man is like this, but it's definitely and obviously a big problem, so it's not helpful to bury your head in the sand and keep talking about respect for women. I respect women IMMENSLEY, which is why this subject upsets me so much and I'm so passionate about it. Because I want all Muslim women, everywhere, to have equality. That doesn't mean I don't know some already do. I'm thinking of all those who DON'T. Not sure how you can be offended by someone caring strongly about the plight of women in the world (muslim or otherwise). That is my ONLY concern. I don't care if I happen to insult Muslims, Christians, Jews, or anyone else in the process.
PS - I think ALL organized religion sucks balls.
It's so weird when I hear people talk about Islam in way I was never taught. It's almost as if they're talking about a completely different religion. That's why I get so "butt hurt" when I read some of the shit that people say. Especially if they act all holier then thou and single out 1 religion in a discussion of many religions. Seems so disingenuous to do that. But to each his/her own. And in NO WAY should I be the one representing Islam because I'm not really religious. But when I see people fabricating or making up numbers in their heads to justify some logic, I'm gonna call shit on it. And I haven't had to call shit on any of your posts.
Care to answer my question from earlier that you've ignored? You an atheist, Christian? Jew? Know you're DEF not Muslim.
Those who would wear kippahs on a regular basis would probably be defined as fairly devout Conservative Jews - who are often far more liberal than the more observant Orthodox Jewish community. Orthodox Jews were all but absent within the university campus I was at: I would assume they would be typically opting to go to Yeshivas (Jewish places of post-secondary study which focus on learning and analyzing the Talmud and its numerous interpretations). My point is that the communities of Orthodox Jewry are largely groups who keep to themselves for the duration of their entire lives. If there is a skew in the visibility of the discussion about sexism between Islam and other religions, I would guess it is because of the visibility of the sexism itself, not the amount or intensity of the sexism.
Don't get me wrong though, badbrains, people are often quick to jump to conclusions when it comes to female roles in Islam, but I think what I wrote above has some impact in it.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
I apologize if this isn't what you meant (I'd be surprised if it did), but that's what it sounds like to me.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Thank you for clarifying.
I thought it was pretty obvious that I'm an Atheist.
Let's not make it personal, kay? I don't hate Muslims. I hate the bad things in Muslim/Islamic culture, just like I hate the bad things in other cultures and religions. That doesn't mean I don't know it's isn't all bad. Of course not.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
What's with the quotes on university?
Stop sniping at me. It's so pointless.
1) Islamic culture is the major culture/religion that still supports extreme subjugation.
2) Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality.
3) Women's rights are greater in the Western world than in the Middle East and Southeast Asia, potentially as a byproduct of the separation of church and state in Western culture.
Of these three points, the only evidences you offered included that women were only just granted the right to drive in the UAE, and that India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women.
Your first piece of evidence is valid, and proves the first implication, as well as the second as a byproduct of the third.
Your second piece of evidence is that India - a predominantly Hindu country which does not reside within the boundaries of Southeast Asia (which start east of India) - are now paying attention to men who rape women. How that could prove the first or third implications is beyond me, and the second implication, simply put, I don't understand why it's even there (it's given one sentence) lumped into a post that predominantly reads as one condescending towards Islamic culture.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but based on this trail of logic, you seem to be saying saying:
1) Islamic culture is the major culture/religion that still supports extreme subjugation, as shown by the fact that women were only just granted the right to drive in the UAE.
2) Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality, as shown by the fact that women's rights are greater in the Western world than in the Middle East and Southeast Asia, potentially as a byproduct of the separation of church and state in Western culture, as shown by the fact that women were only just granted the right to drive in the UAE. If you don't mind throwing geography or demographics out the window, you can also add to that the fact that the fact that India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women as evidence.
3) The two pieces of evidence above would then be applied to your third point, that women's rights are greater in the Western world than in the Middle East and Southeast Asia.
These three implication-evidence pairs vary in legitimacy as I explained above, but at best, the evidences are too weak to merit such an unequivocal (or at the very least, overstated) condemnation of Islam for its rights towards women. Honestly, based on this, I struggle to see how anyone would be persuaded to believe what you're trying to propose.
As for your second statement in response to badbrains (which I am assuming is part of the same train of thought as your first statement), I understood this as you trying to say one of:
1) Islamic culture is the major culture/religion that still supports extreme subjugation, as shown by the fact that 13% of India's population is Muslim, and India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women.
2) Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality, as shown by the fact that 13% of India's population is Muslim, and India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women.
3) Women's rights are greater in the Western world than in the Middle East and Southeast Asia, as shown by the fact that 13% of India's population is Muslim, and India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women.
These three just sound like entire gobbledegook to me, but to be fair, maybe you were trying to argue something else at this point and I didn't catch that.
Am I missing something, or are others doing this right now as well? :-?
As always, if I've misunderstood, misconstrued, or failed to apply good logic, please call me out on it!
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1