Are there any religions that treat woman as 100% equal?
Pastafarianism comes to mind although I could be mistaken.
Have you been touched by his noodly appendage?
Hahaha now that's the holy spirit right there!
Y'all have a great weekend, and take care of each other, I'm taking my pregnant wife and stitched-up-legged dog camping in the Adirondaks tonight, and then on to the Presidential Range in New Hampshire for the holiday. I might be crazy...but they are both tough sumbitches, and both excited.
I always say, if you ain't a man who loves damn strong women, YOU AIN'T A MAN AT ALL!
Are there any religions that treat woman as 100% equal?
Pastafarianism comes to mind although I could be mistaken.
Have you been touched by his noodly appendage?
Hahaha now that's the holy spirit right there!
Y'all have a great weekend, and take care of each other, I'm taking my pregnant wife and stitched-up-legged dog camping in the Adirondaks tonight, and then on to the Presidential Range in New Hampshire for the holiday. I might be crazy...but they are both tough sumbitches, and both excited.
I always say, if you ain't a man who loves damn strong women, YOU AIN'T A MAN AT ALL!
Have a great time! Haven't been to the Adirondacks before, but my guitar's wood's from the region and damn do I love it
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Are there any religions that treat woman as 100% equal?
Pastafarianism comes to mind although I could be mistaken.
Have you been touched by his noodly appendage?
Not yet, but if I ever find a religion I think that this is the one.
I'm having third thoughts (had my second thoughts years ago about my religion-by-obligation).
This is the telling statement: my religion-by-obligation.
Hooked in one's most impressionable age, religion survives by passing itself along to kids who are prepared to receive it and embrace it without the means and experience to question it.
I'm sorry to say it, but it's brainwashing of the highest order. I say this because I remember as a kid fearing God, having a relationship with God and totally in love with the idea of Heaven (who wouldn't be?). When I abandoned the idea of it and stepped out towards reality, I felt like I had one foot in Hell. That powerful feeling went away though.
It's tough to break an addiction like religion, but once you do... it's hard not to speak out against what once held you in its grasp. It's a sham. Every one of them.
These words are likely not going to be well received by some and I do wish to clarify that I genuinely like some of those advocating for their religion as much as the next person who speaks against religion. It's not the people who have powerful claws dug into them I am speaking against. I oppose what should now be an obsolete industry that keeps some from understanding what this world is truly about.
* That brainwashing is so strong that even as I type this, I feel blasphemous. It's residue still exists within me. I can only surmise that I would have no hope of leaving it if I had waited until now- instead of 13- to abandon my religion.
"My brain's a good brain!"
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
Man oh man...we have some well-spoken folks here.
Thirty, I'm not necessarily with you on the brainwashed front but understand your stance. I never felt bound by my upbringing (actually the opposite), never thought of my parents as brainwashed. Hannukah, Rosh Hashana and the like were fun times in our home. Comforting, united, warm, funny (we used to poke fun at my dad because he sang so seriously...now grown, I get it, the solemness and gravity amid celebration).
And yes...religion by obligation. What a perfect term - I feel (felt) this too.
I don't know if anyone ever watched Thirtysomething, but there was an episode related to a newborn son's circumcision - whether or not to do it...and why. One line that has always resonated with me (to paraphrase) - "there's this golden chain, and no one says you have to keep it going...but who are you to presume to break it?"
That's how I feel in my agnosticism...that I broke the chain, a precious one. I had to - have to - be honest with myself.
Then again, I kept my maiden name when I got married last year. Not because it's uncommon but because I'm one of the last to have it (thanks a lot, Hitler).
Thirty, I'm not necessarily with you on the brainwashed front but understand your stance. I never felt bound by my upbringing (actually the opposite), never thought of my parents as brainwashed. Hannukah, Rosh Hashana and the like were fun times in our home. Comforting, united, warm, funny (we used to poke fun at my dad because he sang so seriously...now grown, I get it, the solemness and gravity amid celebration).
And yes...religion by obligation. What a perfect term - I feel (felt) this too.
I don't know if anyone ever watched Thirtysomething, but there was an episode related to a newborn son's circumcision - whether or not to do it...and why. One line that has always resonated with me (to paraphrase) - "there's this golden chain, and no one says you have to keep it going...but who are you to presume to break it?"
That's how I feel in my agnosticism...that I broke the chain, a precious one. I had to - have to - be honest with myself.
Then again, I kept my maiden name when I got married last year. Not because it's uncommon but because I'm one of the last to have it (thanks a lot, Hitler).
My issues in regards to religion are limited to two concepts:
1) Rationalization via religion 2) Religious expansion via indoctrination of the (often purposely) uninformed
When we try and look through cryptic and ambiguous texts to try and read them the way we want, in an effort to rationalize poor and inappropriate actions - that rubs me the wrong way. As I've explained here mathematically, based on the population's split of religious affinities, the odds are against any religion being correct (i.e. no one religion covers over 50% of the global population), therefore, it seems reasonable to denounce the absolutism of a deity and let humanitarianism be your first allegiance, far before anything else, be it nationalism or religion. If we all strive to align our allegiances with humanity at large, there is a 100% certainty that we are doing (or at least trying to do) something that benefits humanity: I will take those odds over the crapshoot of religion any day. If this were the case, I suspect millions upon millions of deaths would have been avoided throughout history: at least we'd have to take ownership for our own actions and not say "he did it" while pointing up to the sky.
Religious indoctrination is also something I'm strongly opposed to. I was teaching twenty-odd Buddhist monks and nuns in Nepal last year, and found that getting them to share information about their beautiful spiritual and religious natures was like pulling teeth: these were people confident with the lives they had chosen, and had no concern about spreading their ideals. Then two Christian missionaries from the States showed up to teach as well, and after witnessing more "Jesus will save you" than I care to admit, I'd had enough and told them I didn't think it was their place to disseminate their ideals to a people who are largely happy with their place in life. I told the same to the school's principal who agreed with me, and they were quite fair from that point onwards. I also witnessed this within the Jewish faith numerous times when Orthodox or Conservative Jews questioned my 'Jewishness' and tried to convert me into what my childish and politically incorrect younger self called a 'Superjew'. Simply put, I believe that religion should be sought after, not delivered.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Thirty, I'm not necessarily with you on the brainwashed front but understand your stance. I never felt bound by my upbringing (actually the opposite), never thought of my parents as brainwashed. Hannukah, Rosh Hashana and the like were fun times in our home. Comforting, united, warm, funny (we used to poke fun at my dad because he sang so seriously...now grown, I get it, the solemness and gravity amid celebration).
And yes...religion by obligation. What a perfect term - I feel (felt) this too.
I don't know if anyone ever watched Thirtysomething, but there was an episode related to a newborn son's circumcision - whether or not to do it...and why. One line that has always resonated with me (to paraphrase) - "there's this golden chain, and no one says you have to keep it going...but who are you to presume to break it?"
That's how I feel in my agnosticism...that I broke the chain, a precious one. I had to - have to - be honest with myself.
Then again, I kept my maiden name when I got married last year. Not because it's uncommon but because I'm one of the last to have it (thanks a lot, Hitler).
it seems reasonable to denounce the absolutism of a deity and let humanitarianism be your first allegiance, far before anything else, be it nationalism or religion.
This is what I wish for.
Eliminate 'Us and Them' and the world would be a much greater place.
"My brain's a good brain!"
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
Well yes - just as belief can't be forced, either within yourself or upon others.
So...is it religion itself, or the attempts to force it upon others? I've heard Buddhism is considered more a philosophy than religion but still...it's a belief for them, a way of life. As with others who follow religious or spiritual paths.
Maybe that's what it comes down to...let people live and believe as they do, assuming peacefully. Share the word - even if your own words? - if others are open to it and otherwise, just be and respect others doing the same.
hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
I hope it can be acknowledged that some, whether or not religion still plays a part in their life, aren't necessarily afraid or believe in boogey-men...present or past-tense.
Part of what I typed up last night and ultimately chose not to post was part of my father's ethical will, written shortly before he died...about what he hoped to pass on to his children. About being compassionate, charitable, taking nothing for granted, admitting when you're in the wrong, not demanding but earning respect.
These came - at least in part - from his Jewish upbringing. Are these life-lessons off?
Using fear of the boogey man to have children behave and instill this fear into them is child abuse.
I agree with that, which is why I don't find Thirty's use of the term "brainwashing" to be out of line. But I can also accept Benjs' "indoctrination of the (often purposely) uninformed" to describe what religious folks to do their kids. I was brainwashed as a child, and was a believer until I broke away and learned to ask questions and draw my own conclusions. It was liberating to not have to suspend disbelief and actually apply reason and logic to daily life. Religion is so efficient at suffocating people with guilt that it is often hard for those people to dare ask questions for fear of hell, of ostracism, or of self-reliance. JWPearl's responses in this thread are precisely why I have a problem with all organized religions.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
Using fear of the boogey man to have children behave and instill this fear into them is child abuse.
I agree with that, which is why I don't find Thirty's use of the term "brainwashing" to be out of line. But I can also accept Benjs' "indoctrination of the (often purposely) uninformed" to describe what religious folks to do their kids. I was brainwashed as a child, and was a believer until I broke away and learned to ask questions and draw my own conclusions. It was liberating to not have to suspend disbelief and actually apply reason and logic to daily life. Religion is so efficient at suffocating people with guilt that it is often hard for those people to dare ask questions for fear of hell, of ostracism, or of self-reliance. JWPearl's responses in this thread are precisely why I have a problem with all organized religions.
I'm not sure why 'brainwashed' is out of line?
You say two sentences later that you were brainwashed as a child. This is exactly what I spoke to.
Using fear of the boogey man to have children behave and instill this fear into them is child abuse.
I agree with that, which is why I don't find Thirty's use of the term "brainwashing" to be out of line. But I can also accept Benjs' "indoctrination of the (often purposely) uninformed" to describe what religious folks to do their kids. I was brainwashed as a child, and was a believer until I broke away and learned to ask questions and draw my own conclusions. It was liberating to not have to suspend disbelief and actually apply reason and logic to daily life. Religion is so efficient at suffocating people with guilt that it is often hard for those people to dare ask questions for fear of hell, of ostracism, or of self-reliance. JWPearl's responses in this thread are precisely why I have a problem with all organized religions.
I'm not sure why 'brainwashed' is out of line?
You say two sentences later that you were brainwashed as a child. This is exactly what I spoke to.
Using fear of the boogey man to have children behave and instill this fear into them is child abuse.
I agree with that, which is why I don't find Thirty's use of the term "brainwashing" to be out of line. But I can also accept Benjs' "indoctrination of the (often purposely) uninformed" to describe what religious folks to do their kids. I was brainwashed as a child, and was a believer until I broke away and learned to ask questions and draw my own conclusions. It was liberating to not have to suspend disbelief and actually apply reason and logic to daily life. Religion is so efficient at suffocating people with guilt that it is often hard for those people to dare ask questions for fear of hell, of ostracism, or of self-reliance. JWPearl's responses in this thread are precisely why I have a problem with all organized religions.
I'm not sure why 'brainwashed' is out of line?
You say two sentences later that you were brainwashed as a child. This is exactly what I spoke to.
Thirty! Buddy! He was agreeing with you man! Lol
Haha, thanks BB! I reread my sentence 3 or 4 times to see if I somehow fucked it up. Thirty, I'm definitely agreeing!
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
Also, I should add that, although I attended a religious school until I was 15 or 16, I have pretty special parents who have always been fairly open-minded. For example, I had a choice about going to religious school or public school; I opted for the former. When, at the age of twelve, I was suspended for telling a religious studies teacher that Judaism was a load of bullshit - my parents were upset about the fact that I said that the way I did. They told me that it's okay to be a skeptic and to ask questions and choose my own beliefs, but to do so civilly and to seek out evidence to enable sound debate. That's something that's always stuck with me, and I would be hard-pressed to claim that religion was ever 'shoved down my throat' although I was irrefutably born into it.
At this point my religious/spiritual affiliations are some form of Frankenbelief, and I'm okay with that. Since I don't recognize the absolutism of deities, I can then conclude that religious documents are written by human beings. And just like I agree with human beings who present sound evidence for their beliefs and disagree with ones who don't, I'm therefore able to (to the best of my abilities) use religion (and not just one) to align myself with humanitarianism. Some personal favourites:
As Nart reminded me, to destroy one life is to destroy all of humanity, and to save one life is to save all of humanity. As my parents told me, judge others by the way they treat the people that mean least in their lives. As my Buddhist meditation mentor told me, I am the owner of my own Karma. As Tom Cruise told me, Zorp is our overlord and dominator and if I donate $4000 to the Church of Scientology, my E-Meter readings will be through the roof (sorry, had to throw a bit of satire in here - my apologies to any Scientologists on the board).
My life is sincerely made better by keeping these notions in mind, and these inherently good statements are just a few reasons why I would never propose an existence without religion entirely.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Comments
And yes, I've been climbing a tree or however BB and benjs put it
Hey wtf happened to the green emoticon?? The only one green is the new alien one i just saw.
Edit-found him! :-&
Y'all have a great weekend, and take care of each other, I'm taking my pregnant wife and stitched-up-legged dog camping in the Adirondaks tonight, and then on to the Presidential Range in New Hampshire for the holiday. I might be crazy...but they are both tough sumbitches, and both excited.
I always say, if you ain't a man who loves damn strong women, YOU AIN'T A MAN AT ALL!
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Hooked in one's most impressionable age, religion survives by passing itself along to kids who are prepared to receive it and embrace it without the means and experience to question it.
I'm sorry to say it, but it's brainwashing of the highest order. I say this because I remember as a kid fearing God, having a relationship with God and totally in love with the idea of Heaven (who wouldn't be?). When I abandoned the idea of it and stepped out towards reality, I felt like I had one foot in Hell. That powerful feeling went away though.
It's tough to break an addiction like religion, but once you do... it's hard not to speak out against what once held you in its grasp. It's a sham. Every one of them.
These words are likely not going to be well received by some and I do wish to clarify that I genuinely like some of those advocating for their religion as much as the next person who speaks against religion. It's not the people who have powerful claws dug into them I am speaking against. I oppose what should now be an obsolete industry that keeps some from understanding what this world is truly about.
* That brainwashing is so strong that even as I type this, I feel blasphemous. It's residue still exists within me. I can only surmise that I would have no hope of leaving it if I had waited until now- instead of 13- to abandon my religion.
Thirty, I'm not necessarily with you on the brainwashed front but understand your stance. I never felt bound by my upbringing (actually the opposite), never thought of my parents as brainwashed. Hannukah, Rosh Hashana and the like were fun times in our home. Comforting, united, warm, funny (we used to poke fun at my dad because he sang so seriously...now grown, I get it, the solemness and gravity amid celebration).
And yes...religion by obligation. What a perfect term - I feel (felt) this too.
I don't know if anyone ever watched Thirtysomething, but there was an episode related to a newborn son's circumcision - whether or not to do it...and why. One line that has always resonated with me (to paraphrase) - "there's this golden chain, and no one says you have to keep it going...but who are you to presume to break it?"
That's how I feel in my agnosticism...that I broke the chain, a precious one. I had to - have to - be honest with myself.
Then again, I kept my maiden name when I got married last year. Not because it's uncommon but because I'm one of the last to have it (thanks a lot, Hitler).
1) Rationalization via religion
2) Religious expansion via indoctrination of the (often purposely) uninformed
When we try and look through cryptic and ambiguous texts to try and read them the way we want, in an effort to rationalize poor and inappropriate actions - that rubs me the wrong way. As I've explained here mathematically, based on the population's split of religious affinities, the odds are against any religion being correct (i.e. no one religion covers over 50% of the global population), therefore, it seems reasonable to denounce the absolutism of a deity and let humanitarianism be your first allegiance, far before anything else, be it nationalism or religion. If we all strive to align our allegiances with humanity at large, there is a 100% certainty that we are doing (or at least trying to do) something that benefits humanity: I will take those odds over the crapshoot of religion any day. If this were the case, I suspect millions upon millions of deaths would have been avoided throughout history: at least we'd have to take ownership for our own actions and not say "he did it" while pointing up to the sky.
Religious indoctrination is also something I'm strongly opposed to. I was teaching twenty-odd Buddhist monks and nuns in Nepal last year, and found that getting them to share information about their beautiful spiritual and religious natures was like pulling teeth: these were people confident with the lives they had chosen, and had no concern about spreading their ideals. Then two Christian missionaries from the States showed up to teach as well, and after witnessing more "Jesus will save you" than I care to admit, I'd had enough and told them I didn't think it was their place to disseminate their ideals to a people who are largely happy with their place in life. I told the same to the school's principal who agreed with me, and they were quite fair from that point onwards. I also witnessed this within the Jewish faith numerous times when Orthodox or Conservative Jews questioned my 'Jewishness' and tried to convert me into what my childish and politically incorrect younger self called a 'Superjew'. Simply put, I believe that religion should be sought after, not delivered.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Eliminate 'Us and Them' and the world would be a much greater place.
So...is it religion itself, or the attempts to force it upon others? I've heard Buddhism is considered more a philosophy than religion but still...it's a belief for them, a way of life. As with others who follow religious or spiritual paths.
Maybe that's what it comes down to...let people live and believe as they do, assuming peacefully. Share the word - even if your own words? - if others are open to it and otherwise, just be and respect others doing the same.
Part of what I typed up last night and ultimately chose not to post was part of my father's ethical will, written shortly before he died...about what he hoped to pass on to his children. About being compassionate, charitable, taking nothing for granted, admitting when you're in the wrong, not demanding but earning respect.
These came - at least in part - from his Jewish upbringing. Are these life-lessons off?
You say two sentences later that you were brainwashed as a child. This is exactly what I spoke to.
I'm an idiot.
Actually... I was reaching for something that I could be offended by!
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
At this point my religious/spiritual affiliations are some form of Frankenbelief, and I'm okay with that. Since I don't recognize the absolutism of deities, I can then conclude that religious documents are written by human beings. And just like I agree with human beings who present sound evidence for their beliefs and disagree with ones who don't, I'm therefore able to (to the best of my abilities) use religion (and not just one) to align myself with humanitarianism. Some personal favourites:
As Nart reminded me, to destroy one life is to destroy all of humanity, and to save one life is to save all of humanity.
As my parents told me, judge others by the way they treat the people that mean least in their lives.
As my Buddhist meditation mentor told me, I am the owner of my own Karma.
As Tom Cruise told me, Zorp is our overlord and dominator and if I donate $4000 to the Church of Scientology, my E-Meter readings will be through the roof (sorry, had to throw a bit of satire in here - my apologies to any Scientologists on the board).
My life is sincerely made better by keeping these notions in mind, and these inherently good statements are just a few reasons why I would never propose an existence without religion entirely.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
PS, For anyone coming in here halfway through, this is all in jest - badbrains is a great guy
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Godfather.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1