I did have that one terribly-timed, horribly-placed rant you called me out on one time, I was pretty embarrassed about that, but most of us get heated and say regrettable things online at one point or another :-)
I've certainly done the same. We're all allowed a meltdown or two!
As to subjugation, it comes with various veils - maybe not all related to religion but certainly to culture, to mindset, even how experience can blind.
Around the age of 10 or 11, two of my uncles (not by blood - not that it matters) crossed WAY over the line of uncle-like behavior. Due to my trying to deal with it myself - silly girl - and other things going on at the time, I kept it to myself for a while. When I finally told my mom, instead of outrage, I got "well, we've all been through this." Basically, suck it up. Not that she didn't/doesn't love me, but in her mind, it was more important to keep the peace in the famly, not stir things up, rather than defend her daughter's body - not to mention her psyche.
It was the second conversation we had; the first was, unfortunately, similar.
I felt incredibly betrayed, even ashamed...how could that shit be acceptable?
Time has definitely softened my feelings from then. I love her no less, and see now that it's just how she was raised. I'm sorry she was raised like that, to think it's...normal. It's pathetic that it was OK for men to do this with no repercussions. For them to think it's normal.
Sidenote - one of the uncles subsequently became ill and was on an oxygen tank. He lived in NY, and on one of our summer trips there, when we visited him and my aunt, I'd surreptitiously step on the tube until he gasped for air. Cruel, I know, but it was my only way of getting some kind of, I don't know...retribution.
I did have that one terribly-timed, horribly-placed rant you called me out on one time, I was pretty embarrassed about that, but most of us get heated and say regrettable things online at one point or another :-)
I've certainly done the same. We're all allowed a meltdown or two!
As to subjugation, it comes with various veils - maybe not all related to religion but certainly to culture, to mindset, even how experience can blind.
Around the age of 10 or 11, two of my uncles (not by blood - not that it matters) crossed WAY over the line of uncle-like behavior. Due to my trying to deal with it myself - silly girl - and other things going on at the time, I kept it to myself for a while. When I finally told my mom, instead of outrage, I got "well, we've all been through this." Basically, suck it up. Not that she didn't/doesn't love me, but in her mind, it was more important to keep the peace in the famly, not stir things up, rather than defend her daughter's body - not to mention her psyche.
It was the second conversation we had; the first was, unfortunately, similar.
I felt incredibly betrayed, even ashamed...how could that shit be acceptable?
Time has definitely softened my feelings from then. I love her no less, and see now that it's just how she was raised. I'm sorry she was raised like that, to think it's...normal. It's pathetic that it was OK for men to do this with no repercussions. For them to think it's normal.
Sidenote - one of the uncles subsequently became ill and was on an oxygen tank. He lived in NY, and on one of our summer trips there, when we visited him and my aunt, I'd surreptitiously step on the tube until he gasped for air. Cruel, I know, but it was my only way of getting some kind of, I don't know...retribution.
Wow, wtf, that's some crazy shit hedonist. I feel for u, no one should've had to go thru shit like that. That betrayal feeling you had, sorry. Wow, words just ah don't do it justice. But look at you now, strong, happy woman.
I did have that one terribly-timed, horribly-placed rant you called me out on one time, I was pretty embarrassed about that, but most of us get heated and say regrettable things online at one point or another :-)
I've certainly done the same. We're all allowed a meltdown or two!
As to subjugation, it comes with various veils - maybe not all related to religion but certainly to culture, to mindset, even how experience can blind.
Around the age of 10 or 11, two of my uncles (not by blood - not that it matters) crossed WAY over the line of uncle-like behavior. Due to my trying to deal with it myself - silly girl - and other things going on at the time, I kept it to myself for a while. When I finally told my mom, instead of outrage, I got "well, we've all been through this." Basically, suck it up. Not that she didn't/doesn't love me, but in her mind, it was more important to keep the peace in the famly, not stir things up, rather than defend her daughter's body - not to mention her psyche.
It was the second conversation we had; the first was, unfortunately, similar.
I felt incredibly betrayed, even ashamed...how could that shit be acceptable?
Time has definitely softened my feelings from then. I love her no less, and see now that it's just how she was raised. I'm sorry she was raised like that, to think it's...normal. It's pathetic that it was OK for men to do this with no repercussions. For them to think it's normal.
Sidenote - one of the uncles subsequently became ill and was on an oxygen tank. He lived in NY, and on one of our summer trips there, when we visited him and my aunt, I'd surreptitiously step on the tube until he gasped for air. Cruel, I know, but it was my only way of getting some kind of, I don't know...retribution.
hedonist, I'm so, so sorry that this happened to you, and I would 100% agree with you that it's inexcusable and unacceptable.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
I think the focus on Muslims when it comes to this topic comes from the fact that in present times that is the major culture/religion that still supports some pretty extreme cases of subjugation. It is the group of women who are most in need of change right now, since Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality. I am VERY aware of female inequality in my OWN culture (can't say in my religion because I don't have one), but women's rights is light years ahead in western nations compared to where it is in the middle east and southeast Asia (my theory is that this is partly because of separation of church and state in the west). I mean, women were only just granted the right to DRIVE in UAE. India is only just now starting to pay attention to men who rape women. Now where do we think that attention needs to go?? THAT is why we're talking about Muslims badbrains.
You would think someone who works in "university" would know the difference between India and Pakistan. And Hinduism and Islam.
Uhhh... I do know the difference. Not sure what you're saying. That there are no Muslims in India? There are millions and millions of them. What's with the quotes on university? Stop sniping at me. It's so pointless.
PJ_Soul, please see your post on top, and your post below. In your first comment, you seem to imply several different things at once:
1) Islamic culture is the major culture/religion that still supports extreme subjugation. 2) Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality. 3) Women's rights are greater in the Western world than in the Middle East and Southeast Asia, potentially as a byproduct of the separation of church and state in Western culture.
Of these three points, the only evidences you offered included that women were only just granted the right to drive in the UAE, and that India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women.
Your first piece of evidence is valid, and proves the first implication, as well as the second as a byproduct of the third.
Your second piece of evidence is that India - a predominantly Hindu country which does not reside within the boundaries of Southeast Asia (which start east of India) - are now paying attention to men who rape women. How that could prove the first or third implications is beyond me, and the second implication, simply put, I don't understand why it's even there (it's given one sentence) lumped into a post that predominantly reads as one condescending towards Islamic culture.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but based on this trail of logic, you seem to be saying saying:
1) Islamic culture is the major culture/religion that still supports extreme subjugation, as shown by the fact that women were only just granted the right to drive in the UAE. 2) Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality, as shown by the fact that women's rights are greater in the Western world than in the Middle East and Southeast Asia, potentially as a byproduct of the separation of church and state in Western culture, as shown by the fact that women were only just granted the right to drive in the UAE. If you don't mind throwing geography or demographics out the window, you can also add to that the fact that the fact that India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women as evidence. 3) The two pieces of evidence above would then be applied to your third point, that women's rights are greater in the Western world than in the Middle East and Southeast Asia.
These three implication-evidence pairs vary in legitimacy as I explained above, but at best, the evidences are too weak to merit such an unequivocal (or at the very least, overstated) condemnation of Islam for its rights towards women. Honestly, based on this, I struggle to see how anyone would be persuaded to believe what you're trying to propose.
As for your second statement in response to badbrains (which I am assuming is part of the same train of thought as your first statement), I understood this as you trying to say one of:
1) Islamic culture is the major culture/religion that still supports extreme subjugation, as shown by the fact that 13% of India's population is Muslim, and India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women. 2) Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality, as shown by the fact that 13% of India's population is Muslim, and India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women. 3) Women's rights are greater in the Western world than in the Middle East and Southeast Asia, as shown by the fact that 13% of India's population is Muslim, and India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women.
These three just sound like entire gobbledegook to me, but to be fair, maybe you were trying to argue something else at this point and I didn't catch that.
Am I missing something, or are others doing this right now as well? :-?
As always, if I've misunderstood, misconstrued, or failed to apply good logic, please call me out on it!
I was confused from the moment the 25% poll came out. But damn, Ben, yous one smart cookie. that's some detailed post right there. I thought it but in no way I could've written it down so specific. Good job my friend. You took what was in my head and put it down. I think I mite need to lay off the trees some. Lol
I think the focus on Muslims when it comes to this topic comes from the fact that in present times that is the major culture/religion that still supports some pretty extreme cases of subjugation. It is the group of women who are most in need of change right now, since Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality. I am VERY aware of female inequality in my OWN culture (can't say in my religion because I don't have one), but women's rights is light years ahead in western nations compared to where it is in the middle east and southeast Asia (my theory is that this is partly because of separation of church and state in the west). I mean, women were only just granted the right to DRIVE in UAE. India is only just now starting to pay attention to men who rape women. Now where do we think that attention needs to go?? THAT is why we're talking about Muslims badbrains.
You would think someone who works in "university" would know the difference between India and Pakistan. And Hinduism and Islam.
Uhhh... I do know the difference. Not sure what you're saying. That there are no Muslims in India? There are millions and millions of them. What's with the quotes on university? Stop sniping at me. It's so pointless.
PJ_Soul, please see your post on top, and your post below. In your first comment, you seem to imply several different things at once:
1) Islamic culture is the major culture/religion that still supports extreme subjugation. 2) Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality. 3) Women's rights are greater in the Western world than in the Middle East and Southeast Asia, potentially as a byproduct of the separation of church and state in Western culture.
Of these three points, the only evidences you offered included that women were only just granted the right to drive in the UAE, and that India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women.
Your first piece of evidence is valid, and proves the first implication, as well as the second as a byproduct of the third.
Your second piece of evidence is that India - a predominantly Hindu country which does not reside within the boundaries of Southeast Asia (which start east of India) - are now paying attention to men who rape women. How that could prove the first or third implications is beyond me, and the second implication, simply put, I don't understand why it's even there (it's given one sentence) lumped into a post that predominantly reads as one condescending towards Islamic culture.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but based on this trail of logic, you seem to be saying saying:
1) Islamic culture is the major culture/religion that still supports extreme subjugation, as shown by the fact that women were only just granted the right to drive in the UAE. 2) Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality, as shown by the fact that women's rights are greater in the Western world than in the Middle East and Southeast Asia, potentially as a byproduct of the separation of church and state in Western culture, as shown by the fact that women were only just granted the right to drive in the UAE. If you don't mind throwing geography or demographics out the window, you can also add to that the fact that the fact that India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women as evidence. 3) The two pieces of evidence above would then be applied to your third point, that women's rights are greater in the Western world than in the Middle East and Southeast Asia.
These three implication-evidence pairs vary in legitimacy as I explained above, but at best, the evidences are too weak to merit such an unequivocal (or at the very least, overstated) condemnation of Islam for its rights towards women. Honestly, based on this, I struggle to see how anyone would be persuaded to believe what you're trying to propose.
As for your second statement in response to badbrains (which I am assuming is part of the same train of thought as your first statement), I understood this as you trying to say one of:
1) Islamic culture is the major culture/religion that still supports extreme subjugation, as shown by the fact that 13% of India's population is Muslim, and India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women. 2) Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality, as shown by the fact that 13% of India's population is Muslim, and India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women. 3) Women's rights are greater in the Western world than in the Middle East and Southeast Asia, as shown by the fact that 13% of India's population is Muslim, and India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women.
These three just sound like entire gobbledegook to me, but to be fair, maybe you were trying to argue something else at this point and I didn't catch that.
Am I missing something, or are others doing this right now as well? :-?
As always, if I've misunderstood, misconstrued, or failed to apply good logic, please call me out on it!
I was confused from the moment the 25% poll came out. But damn, Ben, yous one smart cookie. that's some detailed post right there. I thought it but in no way I could've written it down so specific. Good job my friend. You took what was in my head and put it down. I think I mite need to lay off the trees some. Lol
That's where you're wrong, bud! More bud is the key, not less... It's the Canadian way!
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Thank you, BB. I was lucky, and not to take away at all from what my mom has done for me, my father was my saving grace. Ironic how I learned from a man what a woman - well, human being in general - should be. CAN be
Thank you, BB. I was lucky, and not to take away at all from what my mom has done for me, my father was my saving grace. Ironic how I learned from a man what a woman - well, human being in general - should be. CAN be
I think the focus on Muslims when it comes to this topic comes from the fact that in present times that is the major culture/religion that still supports some pretty extreme cases of subjugation. It is the group of women who are most in need of change right now, since Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality. I am VERY aware of female inequality in my OWN culture (can't say in my religion because I don't have one), but women's rights is light years ahead in western nations compared to where it is in the middle east and southeast Asia (my theory is that this is partly because of separation of church and state in the west). I mean, women were only just granted the right to DRIVE in UAE. India is only just now starting to pay attention to men who rape women. Now where do we think that attention needs to go?? THAT is why we're talking about Muslims badbrains.
You would think someone who works in "university" would know the difference between India and Pakistan. And Hinduism and Islam.
Uhhh... I do know the difference. Not sure what you're saying. That there are no Muslims in India? There are millions and millions of them. What's with the quotes on university? Stop sniping at me. It's so pointless.
PJ_Soul, please see your post on top, and your post below. In your first comment, you seem to imply several different things at once:
1) Islamic culture is the major culture/religion that still supports extreme subjugation. 2) Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality. 3) Women's rights are greater in the Western world than in the Middle East and Southeast Asia, potentially as a byproduct of the separation of church and state in Western culture.
Of these three points, the only evidences you offered included that women were only just granted the right to drive in the UAE, and that India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women.
Your first piece of evidence is valid, and proves the first implication, as well as the second as a byproduct of the third.
Your second piece of evidence is that India - a predominantly Hindu country which does not reside within the boundaries of Southeast Asia (which start east of India) - are now paying attention to men who rape women. How that could prove the first or third implications is beyond me, and the second implication, simply put, I don't understand why it's even there (it's given one sentence) lumped into a post that predominantly reads as one condescending towards Islamic culture.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but based on this trail of logic, you seem to be saying saying:
1) Islamic culture is the major culture/religion that still supports extreme subjugation, as shown by the fact that women were only just granted the right to drive in the UAE. 2) Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality, as shown by the fact that women's rights are greater in the Western world than in the Middle East and Southeast Asia, potentially as a byproduct of the separation of church and state in Western culture, as shown by the fact that women were only just granted the right to drive in the UAE. If you don't mind throwing geography or demographics out the window, you can also add to that the fact that the fact that India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women as evidence. 3) The two pieces of evidence above would then be applied to your third point, that women's rights are greater in the Western world than in the Middle East and Southeast Asia.
These three implication-evidence pairs vary in legitimacy as I explained above, but at best, the evidences are too weak to merit such an unequivocal (or at the very least, overstated) condemnation of Islam for its rights towards women. Honestly, based on this, I struggle to see how anyone would be persuaded to believe what you're trying to propose.
As for your second statement in response to badbrains (which I am assuming is part of the same train of thought as your first statement), I understood this as you trying to say one of:
1) Islamic culture is the major culture/religion that still supports extreme subjugation, as shown by the fact that 13% of India's population is Muslim, and India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women. 2) Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality, as shown by the fact that 13% of India's population is Muslim, and India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women. 3) Women's rights are greater in the Western world than in the Middle East and Southeast Asia, as shown by the fact that 13% of India's population is Muslim, and India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women.
These three just sound like entire gobbledegook to me, but to be fair, maybe you were trying to argue something else at this point and I didn't catch that.
Am I missing something, or are others doing this right now as well? :-?
As always, if I've misunderstood, misconstrued, or failed to apply good logic, please call me out on it!
Yeah, your last three are indeed gobbledegook, and what I said in each three points has nothing to do with 13% of India being Muslim. Geez, can't a person have a badly placed sentence around here without getting the third degree? Sheesh. The treatment by government of the crime of rape is certainly connected to women's positions in society, India has a lot of Muslims (and other religions that lag in women's rights, for that matter). I should have mentioned Pakistan too, but didn't. I can't believe you put this much time into this, lol. Seriously, that India comment was basically an afterthought. You're way over-thinking it.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I think the focus on Muslims when it comes to this topic comes from the fact that in present times that is the major culture/religion that still supports some pretty extreme cases of subjugation. It is the group of women who are most in need of change right now, since Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality. I am VERY aware of female inequality in my OWN culture (can't say in my religion because I don't have one), but women's rights is light years ahead in western nations compared to where it is in the middle east and southeast Asia (my theory is that this is partly because of separation of church and state in the west). I mean, women were only just granted the right to DRIVE in UAE. India is only just now starting to pay attention to men who rape women. Now where do we think that attention needs to go?? THAT is why we're talking about Muslims badbrains.
You would think someone who works in "university" would know the difference between India and Pakistan. And Hinduism and Islam.
Uhhh... I do know the difference. Not sure what you're saying. That there are no Muslims in India? There are millions and millions of them. What's with the quotes on university? Stop sniping at me. It's so pointless.
PJ_Soul, please see your post on top, and your post below. In your first comment, you seem to imply several different things at once:
1) Islamic culture is the major culture/religion that still supports extreme subjugation. 2) Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality. 3) Women's rights are greater in the Western world than in the Middle East and Southeast Asia, potentially as a byproduct of the separation of church and state in Western culture.
Of these three points, the only evidences you offered included that women were only just granted the right to drive in the UAE, and that India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women.
Your first piece of evidence is valid, and proves the first implication, as well as the second as a byproduct of the third.
Your second piece of evidence is that India - a predominantly Hindu country which does not reside within the boundaries of Southeast Asia (which start east of India) - are now paying attention to men who rape women. How that could prove the first or third implications is beyond me, and the second implication, simply put, I don't understand why it's even there (it's given one sentence) lumped into a post that predominantly reads as one condescending towards Islamic culture.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but based on this trail of logic, you seem to be saying saying:
1) Islamic culture is the major culture/religion that still supports extreme subjugation, as shown by the fact that women were only just granted the right to drive in the UAE. 2) Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality, as shown by the fact that women's rights are greater in the Western world than in the Middle East and Southeast Asia, potentially as a byproduct of the separation of church and state in Western culture, as shown by the fact that women were only just granted the right to drive in the UAE. If you don't mind throwing geography or demographics out the window, you can also add to that the fact that the fact that India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women as evidence. 3) The two pieces of evidence above would then be applied to your third point, that women's rights are greater in the Western world than in the Middle East and Southeast Asia.
These three implication-evidence pairs vary in legitimacy as I explained above, but at best, the evidences are too weak to merit such an unequivocal (or at the very least, overstated) condemnation of Islam for its rights towards women. Honestly, based on this, I struggle to see how anyone would be persuaded to believe what you're trying to propose.
As for your second statement in response to badbrains (which I am assuming is part of the same train of thought as your first statement), I understood this as you trying to say one of:
1) Islamic culture is the major culture/religion that still supports extreme subjugation, as shown by the fact that 13% of India's population is Muslim, and India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women. 2) Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality, as shown by the fact that 13% of India's population is Muslim, and India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women. 3) Women's rights are greater in the Western world than in the Middle East and Southeast Asia, as shown by the fact that 13% of India's population is Muslim, and India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women.
These three just sound like entire gobbledegook to me, but to be fair, maybe you were trying to argue something else at this point and I didn't catch that.
Am I missing something, or are others doing this right now as well? :-?
As always, if I've misunderstood, misconstrued, or failed to apply good logic, please call me out on it!
Yeah, your last three are indeed gobbledegook, and what I said in each three points has nothing to do with 13% of India being Muslim. Geez, can't a person have a badly placed sentence around here without getting the third degree? Sheesh. The treatment by government of the crime of rape is certainly connected to women's positions in society, India has a lot of Muslims (and other religions that lag in women's rights, for that matter). I should have mentioned Pakistan too, but didn't. I can't believe you put this much time into this, lol. Seriously, that India comment was basically an afterthought. You're way over-thinking it.
India Religion Number % Muslims 138,188,240 13.4
So in a country of 1.7 billion people who of which 80% are Hindu, you're basically claiming that rape happens to be commited predominately by their Muslim population? Anyone else see a pattern here? Or is it just me? Now you DEF lost me. Afterthought, you need to think more about what you're about to post, before actually posting.
I think the focus on Muslims when it comes to this topic comes from the fact that in present times that is the major culture/religion that still supports some pretty extreme cases of subjugation. It is the group of women who are most in need of change right now, since Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality. I am VERY aware of female inequality in my OWN culture (can't say in my religion because I don't have one), but women's rights is light years ahead in western nations compared to where it is in the middle east and southeast Asia (my theory is that this is partly because of separation of church and state in the west). I mean, women were only just granted the right to DRIVE in UAE. India is only just now starting to pay attention to men who rape women. Now where do we think that attention needs to go?? THAT is why we're talking about Muslims badbrains.
You would think someone who works in "university" would know the difference between India and Pakistan. And Hinduism and Islam.
Uhhh... I do know the difference. Not sure what you're saying. That there are no Muslims in India? There are millions and millions of them. What's with the quotes on university? Stop sniping at me. It's so pointless.
PJ_Soul, please see your post on top, and your post below. In your first comment, you seem to imply several different things at once:
1) Islamic culture is the major culture/religion that still supports extreme subjugation. 2) Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality. 3) Women's rights are greater in the Western world than in the Middle East and Southeast Asia, potentially as a byproduct of the separation of church and state in Western culture.
Of these three points, the only evidences you offered included that women were only just granted the right to drive in the UAE, and that India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women.
Your first piece of evidence is valid, and proves the first implication, as well as the second as a byproduct of the third.
Your second piece of evidence is that India - a predominantly Hindu country which does not reside within the boundaries of Southeast Asia (which start east of India) - are now paying attention to men who rape women. How that could prove the first or third implications is beyond me, and the second implication, simply put, I don't understand why it's even there (it's given one sentence) lumped into a post that predominantly reads as one condescending towards Islamic culture.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but based on this trail of logic, you seem to be saying saying:
1) Islamic culture is the major culture/religion that still supports extreme subjugation, as shown by the fact that women were only just granted the right to drive in the UAE. 2) Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality, as shown by the fact that women's rights are greater in the Western world than in the Middle East and Southeast Asia, potentially as a byproduct of the separation of church and state in Western culture, as shown by the fact that women were only just granted the right to drive in the UAE. If you don't mind throwing geography or demographics out the window, you can also add to that the fact that the fact that India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women as evidence. 3) The two pieces of evidence above would then be applied to your third point, that women's rights are greater in the Western world than in the Middle East and Southeast Asia.
These three implication-evidence pairs vary in legitimacy as I explained above, but at best, the evidences are too weak to merit such an unequivocal (or at the very least, overstated) condemnation of Islam for its rights towards women. Honestly, based on this, I struggle to see how anyone would be persuaded to believe what you're trying to propose.
As for your second statement in response to badbrains (which I am assuming is part of the same train of thought as your first statement), I understood this as you trying to say one of:
1) Islamic culture is the major culture/religion that still supports extreme subjugation, as shown by the fact that 13% of India's population is Muslim, and India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women. 2) Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality, as shown by the fact that 13% of India's population is Muslim, and India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women. 3) Women's rights are greater in the Western world than in the Middle East and Southeast Asia, as shown by the fact that 13% of India's population is Muslim, and India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women.
These three just sound like entire gobbledegook to me, but to be fair, maybe you were trying to argue something else at this point and I didn't catch that.
Am I missing something, or are others doing this right now as well? :-?
As always, if I've misunderstood, misconstrued, or failed to apply good logic, please call me out on it!
Yeah, your last three are indeed gobbledegook, and what I said in each three points has nothing to do with 13% of India being Muslim. Geez, can't a person have a badly placed sentence around here without getting the third degree? Sheesh. The treatment by government of the crime of rape is certainly connected to women's positions in society, India has a lot of Muslims (and other religions that lag in women's rights, for that matter). I should have mentioned Pakistan too, but didn't. I can't believe you put this much time into this, lol. Seriously, that India comment was basically an afterthought. You're way over-thinking it.
India Religion Number % Muslims 138,188,240 13.4
So in a country of 1.7 billion people who of which 80% are Hindu, you're basically claiming that rape happens to be commited predominately by their Muslim population? Anyone else see a pattern here? Or is it just me? Now you DEF lost me. Afterthought, you need to think more about what you're about to post, before actually posting.
For God's sake. I thought I'd said enough about this. It was a badly written comment is what I meant. I'm sitting here at work with my phone ringing, people coming by, writing other emails, etc etc etc. The bad position of women in India crossed my mind while I was typing and I threw it out there. Yes I knew that Muslims aren't the majority. The two issues just went through my mind and it went into the damn post. I'm SO fucking sorry it didn't meet your standards. What pattern are you talking about so that you can try and make me more stupid in front of everyone? Is there a reason someone didn't ask me to clarify politely rather than trying to belittle me? BTW, badbrains, I thought you would have responded to my post showing that the Qur'an says that women are not equal to men, since you've stated the opposite. Nothing?
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
we all know ppl can be assholes. we all know many males having shit for brains can be abusive to girls & women. disgusting stuff. it can be a culture over here that follows whatever religion or a culture over there that follows whatever religion or it can be a family that doesn't follow any religion at all & the old man beats on everyone or does not beat on anyone.
basically ppl suck alot of the time & basically if children & women are oppressed by some ironfisted big man with his big laws just maybe he should be kicks in the little nuts
I thought I did answer it by stating I'm not the right guy to speak for Islam in detail. I've stated before that a lot of the Islam you have been speaking of wasn't taught to me. Where I even said it's prob culture not religion where you came back with so called articles "supposedly" proving that it is religion.
As for your little "belittling you" line, it's nothing more then you baiting me to say what I wanted to say to you, like you wanted me to say something that mite make me look like an asshole to everyone here (maybe I do).
And as for a pattern, well, your in a discussion on religion and how women are portrayed, yet you've only singled out Islam on this thread and the other thread. That's a pattern. You can hate Islam all you want, won't bother me. Shit, you wouldn't be the first. But when you come on here and talk shit about Islam or any other religion I mite know something about, by throwing out rediculous numbers of polls that never exist, or somehow lump up an entire religion on some sort of fantasy in your head, then I'm gonna call you out on it. Not because you're a woman and I'm a man, but because you're wrong.
Edit- I tried Ben's philosophy on more trees before writing, hope it made sense
Are there any religions that treat woman as 100% equal? If so I applaud them, I guess! But let be real religion is BULLSHIT ... in 2014 people need to look at ancient books for guidance, just do the right fucking thing, if someone needs to look at a bullshit book for moral guidance ... that to me is pretty fucked up ... and seriously people are doing this with the hopes of pleasing their magic sky wizard ) ) ). And PJ You're entitled to your views about how religion treats woman and how some cultures and countries do, because in many parts of the world woman are treated horribly.
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
I'm not baiting. I don't do that. I'm not a manipulator. I was sincerely asking. Why are you talking about shit we've already dealt with in a completely different thread? What fantasy do mean? The one were women's rights are poor in Islamic nations? There is no way you can say that and have anyone agree. And I have already said what I need to say about when I'm generalizing, all the exceptions that I'm aware of, the other religions I include, etc. in this thread. You are just choosing to ignore them. Aside from one stupid sentence about India, I have been perfectly clear and reasonable IMO. You are quite literally just picking on me because you don't like what I have to say and it's grating on my nerves.
I never occurred to me that you might be calling me out because you're a man and I'm a woman. I don't know you, and have no idea what your attitude about women is. That you're Muslim has nothing to do with it. I've already said I've known Muslims who believe women are completely equal. Maybe you're one of them.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I know it's not about abuse to women but on showtime2, there's a great doc on "abuse of youths deemed wayward at a school run by evangelicals." Def worth checking out.
Edit-shit forgot to list the title:kidnapped for christ
I thought I did answer it by stating I'm not the right guy to speak for Islam in detail. I've stated before that a lot of the Islam you have been speaking of wasn't taught to me. Where I even said it's prob culture not religion where you came back with so called articles "supposedly" proving that it is religion.
As for your little "belittling you" line, it's nothing more then you baiting me to say what I wanted to say to you, like you wanted me to say something that mite make me look like an asshole to everyone here (maybe I do).
And as for a pattern, well, your in a discussion on religion and how women are portrayed, yet you've only singled out Islam on this thread and the other thread. That's a pattern. You can hate Islam all you want, won't bother me. Shit, you wouldn't be the first. But when you come on here and talk shit about Islam or any other religion I mite know something about, by throwing out rediculous numbers of polls that never exist, or somehow lump up an entire religion on some sort of fantasy in your head, then I'm gonna call you out on it. Not because you're a woman and I'm a man, but because you're wrong.
Edit- I tried Ben's philosophy on more trees before writing, hope it made sense
BTW, as I already said, that is not what I said about those articles. I posted them as a real life loom at segregation of women in mosques, and repeatedly said that I believe that religion and culture are intertwined. Yet you keep saying the same thing about that. I don't get it. If you're THAT pissed at me, that you're ignoring points I'm making and talking g about how I hate Muslims or whatever, perhaps take a good break from engaging me?
Obviously, and PS, the min focus is on Islam because this all started with ISIS.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I thought I did answer it by stating I'm not the right guy to speak for Islam in detail. I've stated before that a lot of the Islam you have been speaking of wasn't taught to me. Where I even said it's prob culture not religion where you came back with so called articles "supposedly" proving that it is religion.
As for your little "belittling you" line, it's nothing more then you baiting me to say what I wanted to say to you, like you wanted me to say something that mite make me look like an asshole to everyone here (maybe I do).
And as for a pattern, well, your in a discussion on religion and how women are portrayed, yet you've only singled out Islam on this thread and the other thread. That's a pattern. You can hate Islam all you want, won't bother me. Shit, you wouldn't be the first. But when you come on here and talk shit about Islam or any other religion I mite know something about, by throwing out rediculous numbers of polls that never exist, or somehow lump up an entire religion on some sort of fantasy in your head, then I'm gonna call you out on it. Not because you're a woman and I'm a man, but because you're wrong.
Edit- I tried Ben's philosophy on more trees before writing, hope it made sense
BTW, as I already said, that is not what I said about those articles. I posted them as a real life loom at segregation of women in mosques, and repeatedly said that I believe that religion and culture are intertwined. Yet you keep saying the same thing about that. I don't get it. If you're THAT pissed at me, that you're ignoring points I'm making and talking g about how I hate Muslims or whatever, perhaps take a good break from engaging me?
Obviously, and PS, the min focus is on Islam because this all started with ISIS.
Yeah, or maybe take note that I'm not shitting all over you for claiming that the religion of Islam considers women equal to men but then admit that you actually don't know anything about that. If I'd pulled that I would have gotten slaughtered.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I think the focus on Muslims when it comes to this topic comes from the fact that in present times that is the major culture/religion that still supports some pretty extreme cases of subjugation. It is the group of women who are most in need of change right now, since Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality. I am VERY aware of female inequality in my OWN culture (can't say in my religion because I don't have one), but women's rights is light years ahead in western nations compared to where it is in the middle east and southeast Asia (my theory is that this is partly because of separation of church and state in the west). I mean, women were only just granted the right to DRIVE in UAE. India is only just now starting to pay attention to men who rape women. Now where do we think that attention needs to go?? THAT is why we're talking about Muslims badbrains.
You would think someone who works in "university" would know the difference between India and Pakistan. And Hinduism and Islam.
Uhhh... I do know the difference. Not sure what you're saying. That there are no Muslims in India? There are millions and millions of them. What's with the quotes on university? Stop sniping at me. It's so pointless.
PJ_Soul, please see your post on top, and your post below. In your first comment, you seem to imply several different things at once:
1) Islamic culture is the major culture/religion that still supports extreme subjugation. 2) Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality. 3) Women's rights are greater in the Western world than in the Middle East and Southeast Asia, potentially as a byproduct of the separation of church and state in Western culture.
Of these three points, the only evidences you offered included that women were only just granted the right to drive in the UAE, and that India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women.
Your first piece of evidence is valid, and proves the first implication, as well as the second as a byproduct of the third.
Your second piece of evidence is that India - a predominantly Hindu country which does not reside within the boundaries of Southeast Asia (which start east of India) - are now paying attention to men who rape women. How that could prove the first or third implications is beyond me, and the second implication, simply put, I don't understand why it's even there (it's given one sentence) lumped into a post that predominantly reads as one condescending towards Islamic culture.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but based on this trail of logic, you seem to be saying saying:
1) Islamic culture is the major culture/religion that still supports extreme subjugation, as shown by the fact that women were only just granted the right to drive in the UAE. 2) Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality, as shown by the fact that women's rights are greater in the Western world than in the Middle East and Southeast Asia, potentially as a byproduct of the separation of church and state in Western culture, as shown by the fact that women were only just granted the right to drive in the UAE. If you don't mind throwing geography or demographics out the window, you can also add to that the fact that the fact that India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women as evidence. 3) The two pieces of evidence above would then be applied to your third point, that women's rights are greater in the Western world than in the Middle East and Southeast Asia.
These three implication-evidence pairs vary in legitimacy as I explained above, but at best, the evidences are too weak to merit such an unequivocal (or at the very least, overstated) condemnation of Islam for its rights towards women. Honestly, based on this, I struggle to see how anyone would be persuaded to believe what you're trying to propose.
As for your second statement in response to badbrains (which I am assuming is part of the same train of thought as your first statement), I understood this as you trying to say one of:
1) Islamic culture is the major culture/religion that still supports extreme subjugation, as shown by the fact that 13% of India's population is Muslim, and India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women. 2) Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality, as shown by the fact that 13% of India's population is Muslim, and India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women. 3) Women's rights are greater in the Western world than in the Middle East and Southeast Asia, as shown by the fact that 13% of India's population is Muslim, and India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women.
These three just sound like entire gobbledegook to me, but to be fair, maybe you were trying to argue something else at this point and I didn't catch that.
Am I missing something, or are others doing this right now as well? :-?
As always, if I've misunderstood, misconstrued, or failed to apply good logic, please call me out on it!
Yeah, your last three are indeed gobbledegook, and what I said in each three points has nothing to do with 13% of India being Muslim. Geez, can't a person have a badly placed sentence around here without getting the third degree? Sheesh. The treatment by government of the crime of rape is certainly connected to women's positions in society, India has a lot of Muslims (and other religions that lag in women's rights, for that matter). I should have mentioned Pakistan too, but didn't. I can't believe you put this much time into this, lol. Seriously, that India comment was basically an afterthought. You're way over-thinking it.
India Religion Number % Muslims 138,188,240 13.4
So in a country of 1.7 billion people who of which 80% are Hindu, you're basically claiming that rape happens to be commited predominately by their Muslim population? Anyone else see a pattern here? Or is it just me? Now you DEF lost me. Afterthought, you need to think more about what you're about to post, before actually posting.
Jumpin jesus beans to make that conclusion from what she said, that is one hell of an intellectual leap badbrains... I think you are better than that!
I think the focus on Muslims when it comes to this topic comes from the fact that in present times that is the major culture/religion that still supports some pretty extreme cases of subjugation. It is the group of women who are most in need of change right now, since Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality. I am VERY aware of female inequality in my OWN culture (can't say in my religion because I don't have one), but women's rights is light years ahead in western nations compared to where it is in the middle east and southeast Asia (my theory is that this is partly because of separation of church and state in the west). I mean, women were only just granted the right to DRIVE in UAE. India is only just now starting to pay attention to men who rape women. Now where do we think that attention needs to go?? THAT is why we're talking about Muslims badbrains.
You would think someone who works in "university" would know the difference between India and Pakistan. And Hinduism and Islam.
Uhhh... I do know the difference. Not sure what you're saying. That there are no Muslims in India? There are millions and millions of them. What's with the quotes on university? Stop sniping at me. It's so pointless.
PJ_Soul, please see your post on top, and your post below. In your first comment, you seem to imply several different things at once:
1) Islamic culture is the major culture/religion that still supports extreme subjugation. 2) Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality. 3) Women's rights are greater in the Western world than in the Middle East and Southeast Asia, potentially as a byproduct of the separation of church and state in Western culture.
Of these three points, the only evidences you offered included that women were only just granted the right to drive in the UAE, and that India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women.
Your first piece of evidence is valid, and proves the first implication, as well as the second as a byproduct of the third.
Your second piece of evidence is that India - a predominantly Hindu country which does not reside within the boundaries of Southeast Asia (which start east of India) - are now paying attention to men who rape women. How that could prove the first or third implications is beyond me, and the second implication, simply put, I don't understand why it's even there (it's given one sentence) lumped into a post that predominantly reads as one condescending towards Islamic culture.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but based on this trail of logic, you seem to be saying saying:
1) Islamic culture is the major culture/religion that still supports extreme subjugation, as shown by the fact that women were only just granted the right to drive in the UAE. 2) Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality, as shown by the fact that women's rights are greater in the Western world than in the Middle East and Southeast Asia, potentially as a byproduct of the separation of church and state in Western culture, as shown by the fact that women were only just granted the right to drive in the UAE. If you don't mind throwing geography or demographics out the window, you can also add to that the fact that the fact that India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women as evidence. 3) The two pieces of evidence above would then be applied to your third point, that women's rights are greater in the Western world than in the Middle East and Southeast Asia.
These three implication-evidence pairs vary in legitimacy as I explained above, but at best, the evidences are too weak to merit such an unequivocal (or at the very least, overstated) condemnation of Islam for its rights towards women. Honestly, based on this, I struggle to see how anyone would be persuaded to believe what you're trying to propose.
As for your second statement in response to badbrains (which I am assuming is part of the same train of thought as your first statement), I understood this as you trying to say one of:
1) Islamic culture is the major culture/religion that still supports extreme subjugation, as shown by the fact that 13% of India's population is Muslim, and India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women. 2) Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality, as shown by the fact that 13% of India's population is Muslim, and India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women. 3) Women's rights are greater in the Western world than in the Middle East and Southeast Asia, as shown by the fact that 13% of India's population is Muslim, and India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women.
These three just sound like entire gobbledegook to me, but to be fair, maybe you were trying to argue something else at this point and I didn't catch that.
Am I missing something, or are others doing this right now as well? :-?
As always, if I've misunderstood, misconstrued, or failed to apply good logic, please call me out on it!
Jeepers benjs that's a hell of an analysis... But why put so much effort into shredding a post that was clearly written off the cuff? Does every post on the train need to be a well constructed, cohesive treatise with MLS bibliography???? I mean come on!
Are you implying that the evidence to support widespread subjugation of women by predominantly Muslim countries doesn't exist? For Christ's sake they still fucking stone women for adultery in some countries!! If that is your claim I will do the damn research, and put together a doctoral thesis to show what we all know and PJSoul took for granted as common knowledge.
Or did you just want to nitpick for nitpickings sake?
Yeah, or maybe take note that I'm not shitting all over you for claiming that the religion of Islam considers women equal to men but then admit that you actually don't know anything about that. If I'd pulled that I would have gotten slaughtered.
Wow, you really like to have the last fucken word huh? Jesus Christ. :-@
I think the focus on Muslims when it comes to this topic comes from the fact that in present times that is the major culture/religion that still supports some pretty extreme cases of subjugation. It is the group of women who are most in need of change right now, since Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality. I am VERY aware of female inequality in my OWN culture (can't say in my religion because I don't have one), but women's rights is light years ahead in western nations compared to where it is in the middle east and southeast Asia (my theory is that this is partly because of separation of church and state in the west). I mean, women were only just granted the right to DRIVE in UAE. India is only just now starting to pay attention to men who rape women. Now where do we think that attention needs to go?? THAT is why we're talking about Muslims badbrains.
You would think someone who works in "university" would know the difference between India and Pakistan. And Hinduism and Islam.
Uhhh... I do know the difference. Not sure what you're saying. That there are no Muslims in India? There are millions and millions of them. What's with the quotes on university? Stop sniping at me. It's so pointless.
PJ_Soul, please see your post on top, and your post below. In your first comment, you seem to imply several different things at once:
1) Islamic culture is the major culture/religion that still supports extreme subjugation. 2) Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality. 3) Women's rights are greater in the Western world than in the Middle East and Southeast Asia, potentially as a byproduct of the separation of church and state in Western culture.
Of these three points, the only evidences you offered included that women were only just granted the right to drive in the UAE, and that India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women.
Your first piece of evidence is valid, and proves the first implication, as well as the second as a byproduct of the third.
Your second piece of evidence is that India - a predominantly Hindu country which does not reside within the boundaries of Southeast Asia (which start east of India) - are now paying attention to men who rape women. How that could prove the first or third implications is beyond me, and the second implication, simply put, I don't understand why it's even there (it's given one sentence) lumped into a post that predominantly reads as one condescending towards Islamic culture.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but based on this trail of logic, you seem to be saying saying:
1) Islamic culture is the major culture/religion that still supports extreme subjugation, as shown by the fact that women were only just granted the right to drive in the UAE. 2) Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality, as shown by the fact that women's rights are greater in the Western world than in the Middle East and Southeast Asia, potentially as a byproduct of the separation of church and state in Western culture, as shown by the fact that women were only just granted the right to drive in the UAE. If you don't mind throwing geography or demographics out the window, you can also add to that the fact that the fact that India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women as evidence. 3) The two pieces of evidence above would then be applied to your third point, that women's rights are greater in the Western world than in the Middle East and Southeast Asia.
These three implication-evidence pairs vary in legitimacy as I explained above, but at best, the evidences are too weak to merit such an unequivocal (or at the very least, overstated) condemnation of Islam for its rights towards women. Honestly, based on this, I struggle to see how anyone would be persuaded to believe what you're trying to propose.
As for your second statement in response to badbrains (which I am assuming is part of the same train of thought as your first statement), I understood this as you trying to say one of:
1) Islamic culture is the major culture/religion that still supports extreme subjugation, as shown by the fact that 13% of India's population is Muslim, and India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women. 2) Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality, as shown by the fact that 13% of India's population is Muslim, and India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women. 3) Women's rights are greater in the Western world than in the Middle East and Southeast Asia, as shown by the fact that 13% of India's population is Muslim, and India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women.
These three just sound like entire gobbledegook to me, but to be fair, maybe you were trying to argue something else at this point and I didn't catch that.
Am I missing something, or are others doing this right now as well? :-?
As always, if I've misunderstood, misconstrued, or failed to apply good logic, please call me out on it!
Yeah, your last three are indeed gobbledegook, and what I said in each three points has nothing to do with 13% of India being Muslim. Geez, can't a person have a badly placed sentence around here without getting the third degree? Sheesh. The treatment by government of the crime of rape is certainly connected to women's positions in society, India has a lot of Muslims (and other religions that lag in women's rights, for that matter). I should have mentioned Pakistan too, but didn't. I can't believe you put this much time into this, lol. Seriously, that India comment was basically an afterthought. You're way over-thinking it.
India Religion Number % Muslims 138,188,240 13.4
So in a country of 1.7 billion people who of which 80% are Hindu, you're basically claiming that rape happens to be commited predominately by their Muslim population? Anyone else see a pattern here? Or is it just me? Now you DEF lost me. Afterthought, you need to think more about what you're about to post, before actually posting.
Jumpin jesus beans to make that conclusion from what she said, that is one hell of an intellectual leap badbrains... I think you are better than that!
Really? Then what did you take from her statement? I'm curious to hear this.
I watched a similar documentary (maybe it was this one?) awhile back. How people - man or woman - take advantage of the trust placed in them. They're supposed to bring guidance and solace (for god's sake!).
I took that under attack about the demographics in India she fired back that there are plenty of Muslims in India. The implication I took from that was 1) none, she was just swinging back and didn't mean to imply anything specific, or 2) that surely having millions of followers of a religion proven to often be oppressive of women contributes to a situation where women are oppressed. To take away from her statement that Muslim men rape is a bit of a stretch.
I think the focus on Muslims when it comes to this topic comes from the fact that in present times that is the major culture/religion that still supports some pretty extreme cases of subjugation. It is the group of women who are most in need of change right now, since Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality. I am VERY aware of female inequality in my OWN culture (can't say in my religion because I don't have one), but women's rights is light years ahead in western nations compared to where it is in the middle east and southeast Asia (my theory is that this is partly because of separation of church and state in the west). I mean, women were only just granted the right to DRIVE in UAE. India is only just now starting to pay attention to men who rape women. Now where do we think that attention needs to go?? THAT is why we're talking about Muslims badbrains.
You would think someone who works in "university" would know the difference between India and Pakistan. And Hinduism and Islam.
Uhhh... I do know the difference. Not sure what you're saying. That there are no Muslims in India? There are millions and millions of them. What's with the quotes on university? Stop sniping at me. It's so pointless.
PJ_Soul, please see your post on top, and your post below. In your first comment, you seem to imply several different things at once:
1) Islamic culture is the major culture/religion that still supports extreme subjugation. 2) Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality. 3) Women's rights are greater in the Western world than in the Middle East and Southeast Asia, potentially as a byproduct of the separation of church and state in Western culture.
Of these three points, the only evidences you offered included that women were only just granted the right to drive in the UAE, and that India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women.
Your first piece of evidence is valid, and proves the first implication, as well as the second as a byproduct of the third.
Your second piece of evidence is that India - a predominantly Hindu country which does not reside within the boundaries of Southeast Asia (which start east of India) - are now paying attention to men who rape women. How that could prove the first or third implications is beyond me, and the second implication, simply put, I don't understand why it's even there (it's given one sentence) lumped into a post that predominantly reads as one condescending towards Islamic culture.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but based on this trail of logic, you seem to be saying saying:
1) Islamic culture is the major culture/religion that still supports extreme subjugation, as shown by the fact that women were only just granted the right to drive in the UAE. 2) Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality, as shown by the fact that women's rights are greater in the Western world than in the Middle East and Southeast Asia, potentially as a byproduct of the separation of church and state in Western culture, as shown by the fact that women were only just granted the right to drive in the UAE. If you don't mind throwing geography or demographics out the window, you can also add to that the fact that the fact that India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women as evidence. 3) The two pieces of evidence above would then be applied to your third point, that women's rights are greater in the Western world than in the Middle East and Southeast Asia.
These three implication-evidence pairs vary in legitimacy as I explained above, but at best, the evidences are too weak to merit such an unequivocal (or at the very least, overstated) condemnation of Islam for its rights towards women. Honestly, based on this, I struggle to see how anyone would be persuaded to believe what you're trying to propose.
As for your second statement in response to badbrains (which I am assuming is part of the same train of thought as your first statement), I understood this as you trying to say one of:
1) Islamic culture is the major culture/religion that still supports extreme subjugation, as shown by the fact that 13% of India's population is Muslim, and India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women. 2) Christian and Jewish women have achieved more equality, as shown by the fact that 13% of India's population is Muslim, and India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women. 3) Women's rights are greater in the Western world than in the Middle East and Southeast Asia, as shown by the fact that 13% of India's population is Muslim, and India is just beginning to pay attention to men who rape women.
These three just sound like entire gobbledegook to me, but to be fair, maybe you were trying to argue something else at this point and I didn't catch that.
Am I missing something, or are others doing this right now as well? :-?
As always, if I've misunderstood, misconstrued, or failed to apply good logic, please call me out on it!
Jeepers benjs that's a hell of an analysis... But why put so much effort into shredding a post that was clearly written off the cuff? Does every post on the train need to be a well constructed, cohesive treatise with MLS bibliography???? I mean come on!
Are you implying that the evidence to support widespread subjugation of women by predominantly Muslim countries doesn't exist? For Christ's sake they still fucking stone women for adultery in some countries!! If that is your claim I will do the damn research, and put together a doctoral thesis to show what we all know and PJSoul took for granted as common knowledge.
Or did you just want to nitpick for nitpickings sake?
To be entirely honest, the reason that I put so much effort into it was because I perceived it to be an attack aimed disproportionately at one selective group, based on flawed evidence. That's what I'd consider discrimination based on religion, and I don't think it should be allowed to go unchecked. I'm sorry that this all seems pedantic or unnecessary, but I believe in speaking up against prejudice and discrimination.
I don't believe that PJ_Soul was being malicious in her words, but I was hoping to bring attention to some prejudice that I thought I had witnessed - though maybe and hopefully I'm wrong. I think everyone needs to eliminate it in themselves to the best of their abilities if we're all to understand each other and engage each other meaningfully here. For the record, PJ_Soul, if you ever see what I'm preaching against in me, please tell me. I'm incredibly far from perfect.
Post edited by benjs on
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Read the other threads on religion and you will see that she attacks all religions with equal vigor, and I admire it! I personally think it's obvious this topic has special relevance with Islam, do you agree?
I took that under attack about the demographics in India she fired back that there are plenty of Muslims in India. The implication I took from that was 1) none, she was just swinging back and didn't mean to imply anything specific, or 2) that surely having millions of followers of a religion proven to often be oppressive of women contributes to a situation where women are oppressed. To take away from her statement that Muslim men rape is a bit of a stretch.
Thanks, yes. And in fact what I talked about was not who was doing the raping but how they were dealt with by law. But anyway, I think it's been established that I didn't mean it the way it was taken, and I don't get why some have glommed onto that one sentence while ignoring everything else i said. Frustrating.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Comments
As to subjugation, it comes with various veils - maybe not all related to religion but certainly to culture, to mindset, even how experience can blind.
Around the age of 10 or 11, two of my uncles (not by blood - not that it matters) crossed WAY over the line of uncle-like behavior. Due to my trying to deal with it myself - silly girl - and other things going on at the time, I kept it to myself for a while. When I finally told my mom, instead of outrage, I got "well, we've all been through this." Basically, suck it up. Not that she didn't/doesn't love me, but in her mind, it was more important to keep the peace in the famly, not stir things up, rather than defend her daughter's body - not to mention her psyche.
It was the second conversation we had; the first was, unfortunately, similar.
I felt incredibly betrayed, even ashamed...how could that shit be acceptable?
Time has definitely softened my feelings from then. I love her no less, and see now that it's just how she was raised. I'm sorry she was raised like that, to think it's...normal. It's pathetic that it was OK for men to do this with no repercussions. For them to think it's normal.
Sidenote - one of the uncles subsequently became ill and was on an oxygen tank. He lived in NY, and on one of our summer trips there, when we visited him and my aunt, I'd surreptitiously step on the tube until he gasped for air. Cruel, I know, but it was my only way of getting some kind of, I don't know...retribution.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
(edit x2 - fucking quotes!)
Seriously, that India comment was basically an afterthought. You're way over-thinking it.
And yeah if you make your wife walk behind you, your a dick. But realize everyone is the byproduct of their environment.
Peace.
Religion Number %
Muslims 138,188,240 13.4
So in a country of 1.7 billion people who of which 80% are Hindu, you're basically claiming that rape happens to be commited predominately by their Muslim population? Anyone else see a pattern here? Or is it just me? Now you DEF lost me. Afterthought, you need to think more about what you're about to post, before actually posting.
What pattern are you talking about so that you can try and make me more stupid in front of everyone?
Is there a reason someone didn't ask me to clarify politely rather than trying to belittle me?
BTW, badbrains, I thought you would have responded to my post showing that the Qur'an says that women are not equal to men, since you've stated the opposite. Nothing?
basically ppl suck alot of the time & basically if children & women are oppressed by some ironfisted big man with his big laws just maybe he should be kicks in the little nuts
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
I thought I did answer it by stating I'm not the right guy to speak for Islam in detail. I've stated before that a lot of the Islam you have been speaking of wasn't taught to me. Where I even said it's prob culture not religion where you came back with so called articles "supposedly" proving that it is religion.
As for your little "belittling you" line, it's nothing more then you baiting me to say what I wanted to say to you, like you wanted me to say something that mite make me look like an asshole to everyone here (maybe I do).
And as for a pattern, well, your in a discussion on religion and how women are portrayed, yet you've only singled out Islam on this thread and the other thread. That's a pattern. You can hate Islam all you want, won't bother me. Shit, you wouldn't be the first. But when you come on here and talk shit about Islam or any other religion I mite know something about, by throwing out rediculous numbers of polls that never exist, or somehow lump up an entire religion on some sort of fantasy in your head, then I'm gonna call you out on it. Not because you're a woman and I'm a man, but because you're wrong.
Edit- I tried Ben's philosophy on more trees before writing, hope it made sense
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
Why are you talking about shit we've already dealt with in a completely different thread?
What fantasy do mean? The one were women's rights are poor in Islamic nations? There is no way you can say that and have anyone agree. And I have already said what I need to say about when I'm generalizing, all the exceptions that I'm aware of, the other religions I include, etc. in this thread. You are just choosing to ignore them. Aside from one stupid sentence about India, I have been perfectly clear and reasonable IMO. You are quite literally just picking on me because you don't like what I have to say and it's grating on my nerves.
I never occurred to me that you might be calling me out because you're a man and I'm a woman. I don't know you, and have no idea what your attitude about women is. That you're Muslim has nothing to do with it. I've already said I've known Muslims who believe women are completely equal. Maybe you're one of them.
Edit-shit forgot to list the title:kidnapped for christ
Obviously, and PS, the min focus is on Islam because this all started with ISIS.
Are you implying that the evidence to support widespread subjugation of women by predominantly Muslim countries doesn't exist? For Christ's sake they still fucking stone women for adultery in some countries!! If that is your claim I will do the damn research, and put together a doctoral thesis to show what we all know and PJSoul took for granted as common knowledge.
Or did you just want to nitpick for nitpickings sake?
Just as awful as the crimes committed by priests.
To take away from her statement that Muslim men rape is a bit of a stretch.
I don't believe that PJ_Soul was being malicious in her words, but I was hoping to bring attention to some prejudice that I thought I had witnessed - though maybe and hopefully I'm wrong. I think everyone needs to eliminate it in themselves to the best of their abilities if we're all to understand each other and engage each other meaningfully here. For the record, PJ_Soul, if you ever see what I'm preaching against in me, please tell me. I'm incredibly far from perfect.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1