Systematic Subjugation of Women by Religion

rgambs
rgambs Posts: 13,576
edited August 2014 in A Moving Train
This thread seemed like it might have some interest based off the debate in Beheaded by ISIS thread.
Just to kick it off, here's a quote each from the Old and New Testament.
Genesis Chapter 3 Verse 16 "...and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."
1 Timothy Chapter 2 Verse 12 "I permit no woman to teach or have authority over man; she is to keep silent."

*edited for the inclusion of all religions
Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
Post edited by rgambs on
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Comments

  • rgambs
    rgambs Posts: 13,576
    Personal story, short version: I worked in surgery for several years with some Muslim men from Morocco. Let me tell you, they were visibly uncomfortable with being under the authority of strong women and were not bashful about expressing it. It really chapped their asses to be disciplined by female nurses, they made snide comments about female doctors, and showed nothing but respect for the male doctors. They explained to me that their women are loved and cherished over many conversations, but never did they express sentiments that they were respected or held as equals. Most of them held Asian women as their ideal, and they were not afraid to admit that they preferred demure women to the bold empowered style of many American women. All that being said, they were good guys, good people all of them.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • hedonist
    hedonist Posts: 24,524
    rgambs...I don't doubt they were good people by you, by your experiences working with them in what I'd imagine is an intense environment...but I personally can't reconcile talking shit about women being...women. Being themselves (god forbid confidence, strength, independence come into play).

    How can you love and cherish someone, be borne of them, be married to them, be a father to them...and not respect them?

    Maybe some can make sense of this; I cannot.

    Anyway, I'm glad this thread was started up and am looking forward to some interesting exchanges.

    More to come from here!
  • rgambs
    rgambs Posts: 13,576
    intense environment sometimes, humdrum other times lol we were at the bottom of the staff hierarchy so they did what was required without hesitation. They saved the commentary for outside of the O.R. i will say that i dont know what level of respect they actually had for strong women, only the amount that they showed outwardly. I think there may have been a bit of a "machismo" effect going, where you have to act tough even though you really know better deep down. They were very open in discussions of their faith with me, it was an intellectual environment where they werent on their guard constantly, and didnt encounter people who confused them with radical terrorists.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    Religions have been great for the 'old boys club'.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • Drowned Out
    Drowned Out Posts: 6,056
    I honestly don't know much about this topic....my only personal experience with religion is with cathlocism.
    I was questioning why women couldn't be priests from the time I understood the concept of god. I was questioning why birth control was considered wrong by the church from the time I .....you know.
    I honestly don't have a big problem with men and women praying separately, if it's done on equal footing....I can tell you, when I was in catholic school, the big masses that involved more than one school absolutely were a chance to check out women - that was the only good part about them!...it's the nature of any social event. Women do it with men too...I can see why a strict dogma would seek to minimize the distraction. But if women are relegated into some kind of inferior method or place for their prayers, that's wrong IMO.
    Obviously, there are much bigger issues related to treatment of women in some interpretations of islam and other religions....this is reflected in everything from wage discrepancy to discrimination, to abuse and a ton of other societal issues. I just hope people stay aware of how this problem in islam is manipulated for political means, like so many other legitimate and pressing humanitarian issues.
  • hedonist
    hedonist Posts: 24,524
    Is it all about distraction though?

    And if so, why not make it incumbent upon those so easily distracted during prayer (if indeed that would be such a hindrance!) to employ self-discipline instead of..."hey ladies! You all do your thing over there because we're just too weak." Shit, we can still look and lust - men AND women. Just keep your hands and other parts to yourself.

    Know what I mean?

    Drowned, kind of like you - most of my experience is as being brought up with Judaism (with limited exposure to other faiths along the way). There's not much I remember about going to temple except that godawful singing and chanting in a tongue unfamiliar to me. I was no fan then, though I'll admit to remembering those times with nostalgia and maybe a bit of leftover naivete - all seemed simple. My sister ended up getting married in that same temple and it appeared so tiny to me when seeing it as an adult.

    Anyway, those times in temple, all together, never segregated. I never even knew that concept existed.

    Years later, I attended a Bat Mitzvah ceremony for a cousin at an Orthodox temple in London. All women on the other side. Was pretty miffed at first (especially when one of the reasons given was that "some women may be on their period". Oh dear!

    And...hello! We're celebrating the milestone of a 13-YEAR-OLD GIRL who's probably already crossed that river, so to speak, if not at the moment.

    It just struck me as odd. Unfamiliar, I guess, not having been exposed to that side of my parents' faith.
  • rgambs
    rgambs Posts: 13,576
    hedonist said:

    Is it all about distraction though?

    And if so, why not make it incumbent upon those so easily distracted during prayer (if indeed that would be such a hindrance!) to employ self-discipline instead of..."hey ladies! You all do your thing over there because we're just too weak." Shit, we can still look and lust - men AND women. Just keep your hands and other parts to yourself.

    Know what I mean?

    Drowned, kind of like you - most of my experience is as being brought up with Judaism (with limited exposure to other faiths along the way). There's not much I remember about going to temple except that godawful singing and chanting in a tongue unfamiliar to me. I was no fan then, though I'll admit to remembering those times with nostalgia and maybe a bit of leftover naivete - all seemed simple. My sister ended up getting married in that same temple and it appeared so tiny to me when seeing it as an adult.

    Anyway, those times in temple, all together, never segregated. I never even knew that concept existed.

    Years later, I attended a Bat Mitzvah ceremony for a cousin at an Orthodox temple in London. All women on the other side. Was pretty miffed at first (especially when one of the reasons given was that "some women may be on their period". Oh dear!

    And...hello! We're celebrating the milestone of a 13-YEAR-OLD GIRL who's probably already crossed that river, so to speak, if not at the moment.

    It just struck me as odd. Unfamiliar, I guess, not having been exposed to that side of my parents' faith.

    Your first paragraph hits on an issue that sticks in my craw. Why is it that the onus falls on the woman? Why is modesty in women the focus and not self-restraint in men. It seems that there is a subconscious message there reinforcing the old "temptress woman vs. Weak-willed man" paradigm.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • JimmyV
    JimmyV Boston's MetroWest Posts: 19,601
    Professor Robert Langdon would have much to say about this.
    ___________________________________________

    "...I changed by not changing at all..."
  • rgambs
    rgambs Posts: 13,576
    This thread will die quickly without any antagonist lol
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • chadwick
    chadwick up my ass Posts: 21,157
    http://youtu.be/HKBmHWUSJI4

    these fucking guys bug me. im not impressed. who's full of shit?
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."
    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • jeffbr
    jeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    rgambs said:

    They explained to me that their women are loved and cherished over many conversations, but never did they express sentiments that they were respected or held as equals.

    Well, I love and cherish my dogs, but don't hold them as equal. As far as I'm concerned, many of these wacky religious folk (those who don't understand gender equality) like to talk in platitudes about loving women, but the reality is that they treat women the way I treat dogs. I show my dogs love, I treat them kindly, I take care of them and don't abuse them, but they certainly aren't my equal in the house (even though they like to try to claim my spot on the couch from time to time). I can't respect any religions or cultures which subjugate women. Whether it is Islam, orthodox Judaism, fundie Christians, etc... I find it all bizarre and nonsensical.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    chadwick said:

    http://youtu.be/HKBmHWUSJI4

    these fucking guys bug me. im not impressed. who's full of shit?

    I went to youtube to find a video on this subject and found tons of videos that have different views. So many that I just gave up.
  • chadwick
    chadwick up my ass Posts: 21,157
    edited August 2014
    i don't ever wanna offend anyone. i just don't get it, why women are second class citizens with these cultures. sure one could say it isn't any of my business & it isn't. but damn it isn't right & women are fantastic & should be leaders & equals althroughout the world. oppressing girls & women drives me up a fucking wall. instantly i have no respect for men who live this way

    i see a lot of ancient bullshit going on. ancient whacky beliefs that are nothing but goofball violence on the oppressed because the man is the big man. horse dick. lighten you shits. let your girls & women bloom & quit being fucking violent & brainwashed
    Post edited by chadwick on
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."
    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    chadwick said:

    i don't ever wanna offend anyone. i just don't get it, why women are second class citizens with these cultures. sure one could say it isn't any of my business & it isn't. but damn it isn't right & women are fantastic & should be leaders & equals althroughout the world. oppressing girls & women drives me up a fucking wall. instantly i have no respect for men who live this way

    You hit dead on the head Chadwick, it is a culture thing not religious. I'd love for any Muslim circassian to try to use that stick on a circassian woman. First off, if the woman doesn't get him, the entire tribe will.
  • benjs
    benjs Toronto, ON Posts: 9,387
    hedonist said:

    Is it all about distraction though?

    And if so, why not make it incumbent upon those so easily distracted during prayer (if indeed that would be such a hindrance!) to employ self-discipline instead of..."hey ladies! You all do your thing over there because we're just too weak." Shit, we can still look and lust - men AND women. Just keep your hands and other parts to yourself.

    Know what I mean?

    Drowned, kind of like you - most of my experience is as being brought up with Judaism (with limited exposure to other faiths along the way). There's not much I remember about going to temple except that godawful singing and chanting in a tongue unfamiliar to me. I was no fan then, though I'll admit to remembering those times with nostalgia and maybe a bit of leftover naivete - all seemed simple. My sister ended up getting married in that same temple and it appeared so tiny to me when seeing it as an adult.

    Anyway, those times in temple, all together, never segregated. I never even knew that concept existed.

    Years later, I attended a Bat Mitzvah ceremony for a cousin at an Orthodox temple in London. All women on the other side. Was pretty miffed at first (especially when one of the reasons given was that "some women may be on their period". Oh dear!

    And...hello! We're celebrating the milestone of a 13-YEAR-OLD GIRL who's probably already crossed that river, so to speak, if not at the moment.

    It just struck me as odd. Unfamiliar, I guess, not having been exposed to that side of my parents' faith.

    hedonist, if you want to read a very funny book, check out A.J. Jacobs' "A Year of Living Biblically". In it, to draw attention to the antiquation of the bible, he undergoes a challenge to live according to the commandments in the Torah and deals with maintaining that lifestyle in New York City (spoiler: hilarity ensues). There is indeed a commandment that has been taken to mean that a man may not sit anywhere deemed "unclean" - which, biblical scholars say, means a seat which has been sat on by a woman who has had her period within the last five days (correct me if I'm wrong on the length of time). Ultra-Orthodox Jews would take that one step further, and say how could anyone ever be sure of the cleanliness of a seat? Therefore, they would only use their own seats, or sit in private institutions. Women aren't exactly leaving Post-It notes where they've sat, and I would assume they aren't announcing when they're having their periods. Jacobs' wife, who did not like the obtrusive nature of this project, smiled when he got home from his first day of the experiment, and he curiously inquired why she was so smug. Her response was something along the lines of "I'm having my period. And I sat everywhere."
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    benjs said:

    hedonist said:

    Is it all about distraction though?

    And if so, why not make it incumbent upon those so easily distracted during prayer (if indeed that would be such a hindrance!) to employ self-discipline instead of..."hey ladies! You all do your thing over there because we're just too weak." Shit, we can still look and lust - men AND women. Just keep your hands and other parts to yourself.

    Know what I mean?

    Drowned, kind of like you - most of my experience is as being brought up with Judaism (with limited exposure to other faiths along the way). There's not much I remember about going to temple except that godawful singing and chanting in a tongue unfamiliar to me. I was no fan then, though I'll admit to remembering those times with nostalgia and maybe a bit of leftover naivete - all seemed simple. My sister ended up getting married in that same temple and it appeared so tiny to me when seeing it as an adult.

    Anyway, those times in temple, all together, never segregated. I never even knew that concept existed.

    Years later, I attended a Bat Mitzvah ceremony for a cousin at an Orthodox temple in London. All women on the other side. Was pretty miffed at first (especially when one of the reasons given was that "some women may be on their period". Oh dear!

    And...hello! We're celebrating the milestone of a 13-YEAR-OLD GIRL who's probably already crossed that river, so to speak, if not at the moment.

    It just struck me as odd. Unfamiliar, I guess, not having been exposed to that side of my parents' faith.

    hedonist, if you want to read a very funny book, check out A.J. Jacobs' "A Year of Living Biblically". In it, to draw attention to the antiquation of the bible, he undergoes a challenge to live according to the commandments in the Torah and deals with maintaining that lifestyle in New York City (spoiler: hilarity ensues). There is indeed a commandment that has been taken to mean that a man may not sit anywhere deemed "unclean" - which, biblical scholars say, means a seat which has been sat on by a woman who has had her period within the last five days (correct me if I'm wrong on the length of time). Ultra-Orthodox Jews would take that one step further, and say how could anyone ever be sure of the cleanliness of a seat? Therefore, they would only use their own seats, or sit in private institutions. Women aren't exactly leaving Post-It notes where they've sat, and I would assume they aren't announcing when they're having their periods. Jacobs' wife, who did not like the obtrusive nature of this project, smiled when he got home from his first day of the experiment, and he curiously inquired why she was so smug. Her response was something along the lines of "I'm having my period. And I sat everywhere."
    Hahahahaha that was a funny story :))
  • rr165892
    rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    jeffbr said:

    rgambs said:

    They explained to me that their women are loved and cherished over many conversations, but never did they express sentiments that they were respected or held as equals.

    Well, I love and cherish my dogs, but don't hold them as equal. As far as I'm concerned, many of these wacky religious folk (those who don't understand gender equality) like to talk in platitudes about loving women, but the reality is that they treat women the way I treat dogs. I show my dogs love, I treat them kindly, I take care of them and don't abuse them, but they certainly aren't my equal in the house (even though they like to try to claim my spot on the couch from time to time). I can't respect any religions or cultures which subjugate women. Whether it is Islam, orthodox Judaism, fundie Christians, etc... I find it all bizarre and nonsensical.
    I second that entire paragraph.Espescially the last sentence.

    I joke with friends that I subscribe to the Walker Hayes philosophy.Walker Hayes is quirky singer songwriter who has a fun song called "pants"(link below to video)

    "She can wear the pants, she can run the show
    She can crack a whip like Indiana Jones
    She can rule the roost, she can snap and holler
    She can wear the pants as long as I Can Take Em Off Her

    Long as I can take 'em off her
    Yeah, long as I can take 'em off her
    Long as I can take 'em off her"

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X3AJcgfopdk
  • chadwick
    chadwick up my ass Posts: 21,157
    hey let me tell you all something... guys (they aren't men in my eyes) of any heritage who abuse women & kids piss me. any color, any culture, any land, any tribe or any clan, it sucks & i don't like it at all & that is how i was raised to be. oppressing girls & women is fucking stupid & i don't have to like it in my own country by abusive fucking assholes who really should have their teeth knocked out
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."
    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • hedonist
    hedonist Posts: 24,524
    Love it, benjs! I'll definitely look for that book. It reminds me of something I read awhile back, addressed to Dr. Laura (could not STAND her), calling out various passages of the Torah, passages that if taken literally are outrageous...as you mentioned in another thread, antiquated (and even then!).

    I'm thankful to have had a father who not only respected women, but liked them too. It was a great example for me to accept nothing less, and I see many of those same qualities he possessed in my husband.

    (and I'm not looking - nor wanting - to be placed on a pedestal or idolized...simple equality, acceptance of my faults, respect as a person)

    My mother, having lived in Tehran until her late teens, had a different view. Will elaborate on that at some point further.
  • chadwick
    chadwick up my ass Posts: 21,157
    edited August 2014
    that is some goofy religious stuff about the women's menstrual cycle & not being allowed to sit anywhere unclean. fucking talk about demeaning.

    menstrual cycle... fuck that. i do not care. she's ON & it is. barbarians do not give two shits if there is (you know) .... seems like a few 'biblically living' outfits had better toughen up a bit & perhaps respect & love their women more

    candy ass little shits
    Post edited by chadwick on
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."
    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce

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