Beheaded by ISIS

PJ_Soul said:

badbrains said:

PJ_Soul said:

Drowned Out said:

PJ_Soul said:

For the record, I am not Islamophobic at all (and I don't think one could honestly reach that conclusion if they read everything I've said on the subject).

you are def outspokenly critical of many aspects of Islam...I try to keep my opinions on religion to myself, but I will say that I agree with some of your criticisms of islam in a broad sense, even if not the peripherals. Still, I find myself defending muslims all the time, which feels weird as an atheist-leaning agnostic...I pretty much never defend christianity or judaism or any other religion....But I defend islam because I think Islamophobia is right up there with apathy and ignorance as the reasons we allow our politicians and their puppet masters to wage wars. But I don't think you're islamophobic, and I'd hoped my 'at worst' was enough qualification.

You're right, I am very outspoken about certain aspects of Islam, which is largely driven by the position that Muslim women are in because of certain Islamic beliefs/practices. Of course, I'm also very outspoken about all other religions and/or cultural practices, especially if they impact equality for women or homosexuals or any other group. Theocracies also offend me, and unfortunately Islam dictates that government and religion go hand in hand. And i am also very critical of all fundamentalism and extremism... it just so happens that it's Islamic extremism is the kind that is most impacting the world right now and is most discussed here on these boards. For my opinions on the subject I am wholeheartedly unapologetic. However, I am actually generally in agreement with you and Byrnzie and fuck when it comes to ISIS and Gaza. Just because I speak out against those parts of Islam that I oppose it doesn't mean I am against Muslims any more than I am against Christians or Jews. I am universally against fundamentalism and religious extremism.

You mite be confusing "culture" with "religion". Please read this and tell me how women in "Islam" are supposed to be treated shitty.

http://insideislam.wisc.edu/2012/05/the-importance-of-the-mother-in-islam/

No, I'm not confusing culture with religion. They are intertwined.
Thank you, but I am already aware of the good things Islam says about women. That doesn't negate the things that are wrong.

I mean, great. Mother's are supposedly esteemed. I have read all the passages that people use to claim that Islam is not horrible for women. But I've also read all the passages that say the exact opposite. Just like other religious texts, the Koran is very contradictory. That doesn't help all the women who aren't allowed to work once they're married, are obligated to obey their husbands, the way sons are valued over daughters, the way they are all expected to marry and breed, the way they have to be segregated in mosques, aren't supposed to eat with men, have very defined roles in public license and private, the perverse focus on modesty for women... when you see any kind of protests or gatherings in the Islamic world there are almost no women anywhere at all - all men. Such things are not considered womanly concerns. And of course it gets worse, with the extremes of killing or maiming girl who try to go to school, are promised to men when they're children, can't show their faces in public, etc. Sharia law. Horrifying. Female genital mutilation. Fuck.

But yes, I've seen the attempts to make it seem like women are more equal than they really are. I see it as a smoke screen. This does not mean I think all Muslims treat women badly, nor am I saying that all Muslims support any kind of inequality between men as women. Certainly not. I have been in a relationship with a Muslim man myself and i loved him. Not once did he make me feel anything other than equal (although his parents did a poor job of hiding different feelings... they weren't so hot on the idea of their only son being with a non-Muslim white chick). I am talking in general terms.

This is pretty off topic though.... surely there is a separate thread about this specific subject?

badbrains said:

PJ_Soul said:

Forgetting the many things in their religious text that make it clear that women are not equal according to Islam, that isn't even relevant since that's not reality, and the way that Islam may have been twisted as it has intertwined with culture is what actually matters. If i gave the impression that I thought it was all about pure Islamicism, I didn't mean to.... not that it helps. Remember, I am strongly anti-organized religion. I could talk about how various branches of Christianity lead to this same problem, past and present.

BTW, your point about women praying separately (and it's often not just behind them btw. It's sometimes at the back of the room in a separate walled off room) from men because they don't want the men to think about fucking them while praying? That did not make the point I think you intended. You actually made my point.

I proved your point? Really? Interesting. Ok, congrats, you win. Send me your address so I can send you a cookie. B-)

Edit- it's never behind them, it's always separated.

rafie said:

PJ_Soul said:

badbrains said:

PJ_Soul said:

Forgetting the many things in their religious text that make it clear that women are not equal according to Islam, that isn't even relevant since that's not reality, and the way that Islam may have been twisted as it has intertwined with culture is what actually matters. If i gave the impression that I thought it was all about pure Islamicism, I didn't mean to.... not that it helps. Remember, I am strongly anti-organized religion. I could talk about how various branches of Christianity lead to this same problem, past and present.

BTW, your point about women praying separately (and it's often not just behind them btw. It's sometimes at the back of the room in a separate walled off room) from men because they don't want the men to think about fucking them while praying? That did not make the point I think you intended. You actually made my point.

I proved your point? Really? Interesting. Ok, congrats, you win. Send me your address so I can send you a cookie. B-)

Edit- it's never behind them, it's always separated.

I am not trying to win. I was just saying that the justification of praying separately from women is because the men will otherwise not be able to stop thinking about screwing the women says a lot about how women are viewed. And the prayer spaces for women are usually far inferior to the men's prayer spaces. They also have to enter through a separate entrance (usually the back entrance).

To be fair, judaism also seperates women for the same reason. Although certain movement inside judaism (conservetive, reform...) have started to have joint prayers, the majority of jews around the world (that actually go pray) go to orthadox synogouges.

badbrains said:

PJ_Soul said:

badbrains said:

PJ_Soul said:

Forgetting the many things in their religious text that make it clear that women are not equal according to Islam, that isn't even relevant since that's not reality, and the way that Islam may have been twisted as it has intertwined with culture is what actually matters. If i gave the impression that I thought it was all about pure Islamicism, I didn't mean to.... not that it helps. Remember, I am strongly anti-organized religion. I could talk about how various branches of Christianity lead to this same problem, past and present.

BTW, your point about women praying separately (and it's often not just behind them btw. It's sometimes at the back of the room in a separate walled off room) from men because they don't want the men to think about fucking them while praying? That did not make the point I think you intended. You actually made my point.

I proved your point? Really? Interesting. Ok, congrats, you win. Send me your address so I can send you a cookie. B-)

Edit- it's never behind them, it's always separated.

I am not trying to win. I was just saying that the justification of praying separately from women is because the men will otherwise not be able to stop thinking about screwing the women says a lot about how women are viewed. And the prayer spaces for women are usually far inferior to the men's prayer spaces. They also have to enter through a separate entrance (usually the back entrance).

Sorry idris, but I have to post one more response to pjsoul. I think this does a better job of explaining it then me:

http://m.thenational.ae/arts-culture/ask-ali-why-mosques-have-separate-areas-for-women