What's more salvage the Foley beheading or this account....too bad they didn't video it
In his book, Black Hearts: One Platoon’s Descent into Madness in Iraq’s Triangle of Death, Jim Frederick describes the 2006 extrajudicial execution of an Iraqi family of four—a father, mother and two daughters. According to Army Specialist Paul Cortez, his unit was on patrol south of Baghdad when Army Specialist James Barker suggested that they find an Iraqi woman to rape. “We’ve all killed Hadjis, but I’ve been here twice and I still never fucked one of these bitches,” Barker stated. Having chosen their target, the soldiers entered the house and locked three members of the Janabis family in the bedroom with Private First Class Steven Green standing guard over them. Meanwhile, Cortez took the 14-year-old daughter Abeer into the living room and began raping her. According to Frederick’s account: In the bedroom, Green was losing control of his prisoners. The woman made a run for the door. Green shot her once in the back and she fell to the floor. The man became unhinged. Green turned his own AK on him and pulled the trigger. It jammed. Panicking, as the man advanced on him, Green switched to his shotgun. The first shot blasted the top of the man’s head off. Then Green turned to the little girl, who was running for a corner. This time the AK worked. He raised the rifle and shot Hadeel in the back of the head. She fell to the ground. … As Green was executing the family, Cortez finished raping Abeer and switched positions with Barker. Green came out of the bedroom and announced to Barker and Cortez, “They’re all dead. I killed them all.” Cortez held Abeer down and Green raped her. Then Cortez pushed a pillow over her face, still pinning her arms with his knees. Green grabbed the AK, pointed the gun at the pillow, and fired one shot, killing Abeer.
What's more salvage the Foley beheading or this account....too bad they didn't video it
In his book, Black Hearts: One Platoon’s Descent into Madness in Iraq’s Triangle of Death, Jim Frederick describes the 2006 extrajudicial execution of an Iraqi family of four—a father, mother and two daughters. According to Army Specialist Paul Cortez, his unit was on patrol south of Baghdad when Army Specialist James Barker suggested that they find an Iraqi woman to rape. “We’ve all killed Hadjis, but I’ve been here twice and I still never fucked one of these bitches,” Barker stated. Having chosen their target, the soldiers entered the house and locked three members of the Janabis family in the bedroom with Private First Class Steven Green standing guard over them. Meanwhile, Cortez took the 14-year-old daughter Abeer into the living room and began raping her. According to Frederick’s account: In the bedroom, Green was losing control of his prisoners. The woman made a run for the door. Green shot her once in the back and she fell to the floor. The man became unhinged. Green turned his own AK on him and pulled the trigger. It jammed. Panicking, as the man advanced on him, Green switched to his shotgun. The first shot blasted the top of the man’s head off. Then Green turned to the little girl, who was running for a corner. This time the AK worked. He raised the rifle and shot Hadeel in the back of the head. She fell to the ground. … As Green was executing the family, Cortez finished raping Abeer and switched positions with Barker. Green came out of the bedroom and announced to Barker and Cortez, “They’re all dead. I killed them all.” Cortez held Abeer down and Green raped her. Then Cortez pushed a pillow over her face, still pinning her arms with his knees. Green grabbed the AK, pointed the gun at the pillow, and fired one shot, killing Abeer.
I remember when this happened. I remember the rage I felt. This was such a vicious attack and what happened to that family is disturbing. The part of the story that's missing is the part he tried to burn the bodies. These American soldiers are NO BETTER then IS. And thank god one of the soldiers actually had somewhat of a soul because he actually told a priest I believe and that's what made the story come out. I wonder whatever happened to Green. Such a sad story.
After the rape the lower part of Abeer’s body, from her stomach down to her feet, was set on fire. The fire eventually spread to the rest of the room and the smoke alerted neighbors, who were among the first to discover the scene. One recalled "The poor girl, she was so beautiful. She lay there, one leg was stretched and the other bent and her dress was lifted up to her neck."[8] They ran to tell Abu Firas Janabi, Abeer’s uncle, that the farmhouse was on fire and that dead bodies could be seen inside the burning building. Janabi and his wife rushed to the farmhouse and doused some of the flames to get inside. Upon witnessing the scene inside, Janabi went to a checkpoint guarded by Iraqi soldiers to report the crime.
Green and the other soldiers who participated in the incident told the Iraqi Army soldiers who arrived on scene immediately after the incident that it had been perpetrated by Sunni insurgents. These Iraqi soldiers conveyed this information to Abeer's uncle, who viewed the bodies. This lie prevented the event from being recognized as a crime or widely reported amidst the widespread violence occurring in Iraq at that time.
On June 16, a checkpoint manned by soldiers in the perpetrators' unit was attacked and overrun. Specialist David Babineau was killed and Pfcs Thomas Lowell Tucker and Kristian Menchaca were captured, tortured, and killed. When Yribe heard this, he told Pfc Justin Watt that Green was a murderer.
Wow,'so young and innocent. I hope her soul is visiting Green EVERY NITE he's rotting in that so called military prison. How this happened is beyond me.
What's more salvage more barbaric the Foley beheading or the above?
I cant think of anything worse than the rape and murder of a child.
I'm not absolving the ISIS mutants for their lunacy, but Foley took his chances. The girl and the family had no chance. My blood boiled reading that story.
So, if you are trying to draw a parallel to westerners (Americans) pointing their fingers at ISIS and shaking their heads... they'd do well to look in the mirror before doing so. You have successfully spoke to the hypocrisy of the west and our failures to recognize our own evil deeds.
It still doesn't mean though, that we should not be disgusted with ISIS behaviour- it's sheer madness and resembles something out of an apocalyptic horror movie.
What's more salvage more barbaric the Foley beheading or the above?
I cant think of anything worse than the rape and murder of a child.
I'm not absolving the ISIS mutants for their lunacy, but Foley took his chances. The girl and the family had no chance. My blood boiled reading that story.
So, if you are trying to draw a parallel to westerners (Americans) pointing their fingers at ISIS and shaking their heads... they'd do well to look in the mirror before doing so. You have successfully spoke to the hypocrisy of the west and our failures to recognize our own evil deeds.
It still doesn't mean though, that we should not be disgusted with ISIS behaviour- it's sheer madness and resembles something out of an apocalyptic horror movie.
Well said my friend, well said. Raped NOT once but TWICE. Not human
Regarding the "moderate Muslims need to do more to combat extremism" line:
I think it's very condescending for someone in a position of privilege to talk to Muslims living in the Middle East this way. Tell me, what are YOU doing to combat Western imperial policies that allow for extremism to grow? As Drowned Out accurately mentioned, there is a long history of imperial and colonial practices by Western powers in the Middle East/South Asia/North Africa that allowed extremism to grow. And I often find on this board that many of you end up supporting some of these policies because there is a clear refusal to actually engage with history. How did the Middle East become the way it did? What are these extremists a product of? What are they actually rebelling against? If we continue to just ignore legitimate grievances of Muslims living in the Middle East and confront our policies that continue to contribute to the disenfranchisement of these people, that continue to support dictators and settler-colonies that occupy and ethnically cleanse other people, then there will naturally be movements that grow to counter this. And so long as the US and its allies continue to fight this (or pretend to) with the same policies that created them in the first place, then where do you think the "moderate" Muslims are left? In between armed thugs and the world's biggest military, without the ability to even live normal lives.
Meanwhile, here you all are saying why aren't they doing enough. How about you do something? It's ironic to me that some of you even openly acknowledge that our policies created ISIS, but then support US military involvement in northern Iraq because "we created the mess [by intervening militarily] so now we have to fix it [by intervening militarily]." It's just interesting that there does not appear to be any critical thinking here. Any serious questioning of past policies specifically with regards to how they reflect our future engagement with this part of the world, is just nonexistent. And then we just blame the victims for not "doing enough" without actually being aware of the various debates going on in the Middle East, the trends and movements that exist there, how deep our own involvement is, etc etc. Nope, it's just "them" that aren't doing enough.
I wasn't talking about Muslims in the Middle East only. I was talking about Muslims all over the world. I can't remember fuck. Are you Muslim? If you are, then you have a different perspective on this thinking than the Muslims I've spoken to about it. I have seen only complete agreement from Muslims about how the Muslim world needs to do way, way more to combat Islamic extremism all over the world. The Muslims I've personally spoken to about it were: 1) 2nd generation Canadian, 2) Muslim of Indian decent raised and living in Thailand after being educated in Canada, 3) Iraqi refugee in Canada (his father was a member of the Iraqi communist party and escaped persecution with his family in the 1990s), 4) a Muslim born and raised in the UK, 5) a particularly devout Muslim from Bangladesh, 6) a Nigerian Muslim in Canada as a mature international student. Every one of these 6 people said that they completely agreed that the Muslim world has to do more to counter extremism, and 2 of them told me that they thought the reason more isn't done is because they believe Muslims tend to side with Muslims first no matter what - they said it was a sense of obligation to other Muslims that kept a lot of people from standing stronger against extremists. These people are not, of course, experts on the subject. They are just random Muslims (all men, btw... not sure if women might have a different perspective). So take it for what it's worth. Just thought their opinions were interesting and the seemed to support my supposition that the Muslim world needs to do more to stop and prevent Islamic extremism.
Can you post a link to an article to support your claims of Muslim friends? And if you do post one, I will say it is full of lies and then post a link to "antiwar.com" and claim it is unbiased.
I just thought I would predict the future and get the next argument over with.
What are you blabbering about? Have you actually said anything meaningful in this thread that is not based off of conjecture? No? Carry on then.
Regarding the "moderate Muslims need to do more to combat extremism" line:
I think it's very condescending for someone in a position of privilege to talk to Muslims living in the Middle East this way. Tell me, what are YOU doing to combat Western imperial policies that allow for extremism to grow? As Drowned Out accurately mentioned, there is a long history of imperial and colonial practices by Western powers in the Middle East/South Asia/North Africa that allowed extremism to grow. And I often find on this board that many of you end up supporting some of these policies because there is a clear refusal to actually engage with history. How did the Middle East become the way it did? What are these extremists a product of? What are they actually rebelling against? If we continue to just ignore legitimate grievances of Muslims living in the Middle East and confront our policies that continue to contribute to the disenfranchisement of these people, that continue to support dictators and settler-colonies that occupy and ethnically cleanse other people, then there will naturally be movements that grow to counter this. And so long as the US and its allies continue to fight this (or pretend to) with the same policies that created them in the first place, then where do you think the "moderate" Muslims are left? In between armed thugs and the world's biggest military, without the ability to even live normal lives.
Meanwhile, here you all are saying why aren't they doing enough. How about you do something? It's ironic to me that some of you even openly acknowledge that our policies created ISIS, but then support US military involvement in northern Iraq because "we created the mess [by intervening militarily] so now we have to fix it [by intervening militarily]." It's just interesting that there does not appear to be any critical thinking here. Any serious questioning of past policies specifically with regards to how they reflect our future engagement with this part of the world, is just nonexistent. And then we just blame the victims for not "doing enough" without actually being aware of the various debates going on in the Middle East, the trends and movements that exist there, how deep our own involvement is, etc etc. Nope, it's just "them" that aren't doing enough.
I wasn't talking about Muslims in the Middle East only. I was talking about Muslims all over the world. I can't remember fuck. Are you Muslim? If you are, then you have a different perspective on this thinking than the Muslims I've spoken to about it. I have seen only complete agreement from Muslims about how the Muslim world needs to do way, way more to combat Islamic extremism all over the world. The Muslims I've personally spoken to about it were: 1) 2nd generation Canadian, 2) Muslim of Indian decent raised and living in Thailand after being educated in Canada, 3) Iraqi refugee in Canada (his father was a member of the Iraqi communist party and escaped persecution with his family in the 1990s), 4) a Muslim born and raised in the UK, 5) a particularly devout Muslim from Bangladesh, 6) a Nigerian Muslim in Canada as a mature international student. Every one of these 6 people said that they completely agreed that the Muslim world has to do more to counter extremism, and 2 of them told me that they thought the reason more isn't done is because they believe Muslims tend to side with Muslims first no matter what - they said it was a sense of obligation to other Muslims that kept a lot of people from standing stronger against extremists. These people are not, of course, experts on the subject. They are just random Muslims (all men, btw... not sure if women might have a different perspective). So take it for what it's worth. Just thought their opinions were interesting and the seemed to support my supposition that the Muslim world needs to do more to stop and prevent Islamic extremism.
It's extremely telling to me that your arguments are so often based off of anecdotal evidence. "I ran into such-and-such person, and was told this, therefore it must be true." It's interesting that you are willing to give a voice to those Muslims you met and supposedly got to agree with your line of thinking, but you refuse to actually allow Muslims in the rest of the world their chance to speak to themselves -- and before you dispute this claim, I'll point to where you casually alleged that 25% (!) of Muslims in the Middle East are "radicals" without actually backing up the claim. When I refuted the link you posted, and pointed out that the number you cited was nowhere to even be found there, you typically ignored it.
Second, there are a few things that need to be said: First, it is one thing for a Muslim to say Muslims should do more to combat extremism, but an entirely different thing for a Westerner -- whose own government is largely responsible for fueling and supporting extremism in the Middle East -- to suggest it. Look to your own country's policies if you actually want to talk about this. But to even mention the idea that Muslims aren't doing enough without actually being aware of the various debates going on in the Middle East and even truly understanding the cultures and history here, is just plain condescending. Second, you can't cite anecdotal evidence as proof. It's insane to me that you think this is actually admissible as evidence in a discussion about something as serious as this. There could be various reasons why these people you spoke to said that. They could be referring to one instance, and yet agree to a question as general as "Can Muslims do more to combat extremism in the Middle East?" I mean it's just insane to then apply it to a discussion of "The reason extremism persists is because Muslims aren't doing enough to combat it". You may not have necessarily said the second statement - I don't have the time to go through this thread or others you've written in and check - but it is certainly inferred in people's posts here (not just yours).
You are decontextualizing this entire conversation, and not giving Muslims their due credit of truly appreciating the discussions and debates in the Middle East (in fact, I'd wager you aren't even aware of them), nor are you really acknowledging the extensive history of Western foreign involvement there. I mean, there are people who actually think we are going "back into" the Middle East during this latest intervention in Iraq, as if the US has not perpetually been IN the Middle East for the past 60 years! Not to mention Britain and France before that.
Regarding the "moderate Muslims need to do more to combat extremism" line:
I think it's very condescending for someone in a position of privilege to talk to Muslims living in the Middle East this way. Tell me, what are YOU doing to combat Western imperial policies that allow for extremism to grow? As Drowned Out accurately mentioned, there is a long history of imperial and colonial practices by Western powers in the Middle East/South Asia/North Africa that allowed extremism to grow. And I often find on this board that many of you end up supporting some of these policies because there is a clear refusal to actually engage with history. How did the Middle East become the way it did? What are these extremists a product of? What are they actually rebelling against? If we continue to just ignore legitimate grievances of Muslims living in the Middle East and confront our policies that continue to contribute to the disenfranchisement of these people, that continue to support dictators and settler-colonies that occupy and ethnically cleanse other people, then there will naturally be movements that grow to counter this. And so long as the US and its allies continue to fight this (or pretend to) with the same policies that created them in the first place, then where do you think the "moderate" Muslims are left? In between armed thugs and the world's biggest military, without the ability to even live normal lives.
Meanwhile, here you all are saying why aren't they doing enough. How about you do something? It's ironic to me that some of you even openly acknowledge that our policies created ISIS, but then support US military involvement in northern Iraq because "we created the mess [by intervening militarily] so now we have to fix it [by intervening militarily]." It's just interesting that there does not appear to be any critical thinking here. Any serious questioning of past policies specifically with regards to how they reflect our future engagement with this part of the world, is just nonexistent. And then we just blame the victims for not "doing enough" without actually being aware of the various debates going on in the Middle East, the trends and movements that exist there, how deep our own involvement is, etc etc. Nope, it's just "them" that aren't doing enough.
I wasn't talking about Muslims in the Middle East only. I was talking about Muslims all over the world. I can't remember fuck. Are you Muslim? If you are, then you have a different perspective on this thinking than the Muslims I've spoken to about it. I have seen only complete agreement from Muslims about how the Muslim world needs to do way, way more to combat Islamic extremism all over the world. The Muslims I've personally spoken to about it were: 1) 2nd generation Canadian, 2) Muslim of Indian decent raised and living in Thailand after being educated in Canada, 3) Iraqi refugee in Canada (his father was a member of the Iraqi communist party and escaped persecution with his family in the 1990s), 4) a Muslim born and raised in the UK, 5) a particularly devout Muslim from Bangladesh, 6) a Nigerian Muslim in Canada as a mature international student. Every one of these 6 people said that they completely agreed that the Muslim world has to do more to counter extremism, and 2 of them told me that they thought the reason more isn't done is because they believe Muslims tend to side with Muslims first no matter what - they said it was a sense of obligation to other Muslims that kept a lot of people from standing stronger against extremists. These people are not, of course, experts on the subject. They are just random Muslims (all men, btw... not sure if women might have a different perspective). So take it for what it's worth. Just thought their opinions were interesting and the seemed to support my supposition that the Muslim world needs to do more to stop and prevent Islamic extremism.
It's extremely telling to me that your arguments are so often based off of anecdotal evidence. "I ran into such-and-such person, and was told this, therefore it must be true." It's interesting that you are willing to give a voice to those Muslims you met and supposedly got to agree with your line of thinking, but you refuse to actually allow Muslims in the rest of the world their chance to speak to themselves -- and before you dispute this claim, I'll point to where you casually alleged that 25% (!) of Muslims in the Middle East are "radicals" without actually backing up the claim. When I refuted the link you posted, and pointed out that the number you cited was nowhere to even be found there, you typically ignored it.
Second, there are a few things that need to be said: First, it is one thing for a Muslim to say Muslims should do more to combat extremism, but an entirely different thing for a Westerner -- whose own government is largely responsible for fueling and supporting extremism in the Middle East -- to suggest it. Look to your own country's policies if you actually want to talk about this. But to even mention the idea that Muslims aren't doing enough without actually being aware of the various debates going on in the Middle East and even truly understanding the cultures and history here, is just plain condescending. Second, you can't cite anecdotal evidence as proof. It's insane to me that you think this is actually admissible as evidence in a discussion about something as serious as this. There could be various reasons why these people you spoke to said that. They could be referring to one instance, and yet agree to a question as general as "Can Muslims do more to combat extremism in the Middle East?" I mean it's just insane to then apply it to a discussion of "The reason extremism persists is because Muslims aren't doing enough to combat it". You may not have necessarily said the second statement - I don't have the time to go through this thread or others you've written in and check - but it is certainly inferred in people's posts here (not just yours).
You are decontextualizing this entire conversation, and not giving Muslims their due credit of truly appreciating the discussions and debates in the Middle East (in fact, I'd wager you aren't even aware of them), nor are you really acknowledging the extensive history of Western foreign involvement there. I mean, there are people who actually think we are going "back into" the Middle East during this latest intervention in Iraq, as if the US has not perpetually been IN the Middle East for the past 60 years! Not to mention Britain and France before that.
Beheaded by extremists trying to hijack religion in response to shortsighted US foreign policy.
Theres your title.
Trying to hijack a religion? So far I'd say mission accomplished in the middle east.
Several years ago it was the Arab Spring and lots of people posting here were rejoicing that the people were rising up and dismantling US backed dictators.
Now that the Arab Spring has completely back-fired and crazy people are seizing the reigns of power, it is once again the US fault.
What? I don't see why your second and third paragraphs appear to be contradictory to you. Oh, it must be because in between you left out all the actual analysis that explains what happened. Because, you know, who cares about contextualization when you can just bitch about how "boo hoo, they blame everything on the poor US, the only superpower in the world. How dare they! We're just sitting by here idly, casually flying drones in Yemen and murdering dozens of people, families and children, and creating more people willing to join armed groups to fight against not only our government, but the autocrats there who we back. How dare they blame us for this. We backed a military coup of a democratically elected government in Egypt, despite it being against US law, and somehow they blame us. Boo hoo. We give over $1billion of aid a year to a military that slaughtered over 1,000 protesters in Egypt in a matter of hours, and somehow it's our fault. Why would they blame us? We support Israel with $3billion a year in aid, the same Israel that has killed over 2,000 people in Gaza in a matter of weeks, a quarter of them children, and somehow these idiots think 'its all the US' fault'... who do these assholes think they are? We back Saudi Arabia, perhaps the most repressive regime who publicly backs many of these groups, and people have the gall to blame us?!"
Or, you know, we could take into consideration how much US involvement in the Middle East has ACTUALLY fueled not just anti-American sentiment, but groups trying to rebel against modernity altogether. We could ACTUALLY try to understand the frustrations of not just the ordinary Middle Easterner, but even those who end up joining armed groups, rather than just say "No no, they're crazy ideologues, don't mind them. Just put a bullet in their hand, that's always the best medicine".
I also love the whole "The US is far from perfect" line that people have been throwing around here. I mean, millions of people made homeless, millions of people killed either directly by US bombs and sanctions or by those from US allies, and somehow the only thing we have to say is "Well, the US is far from perfect". By this twisted logic, should we just say "ISIS is far from perfect" or should we just acknowledge that the policies of the US have been absolutely evil with regards to the Middle East, given the level of extensive damage? Oh no no, the US is "liberating" the Arabs, minus a few hiccups here and there. By hiccups, you know, I mean millions of dead bodies, but yeah... so what's on TV?
JC29856, that is beyond horrific. i am numb. death to those fucking cold blooded bastards. that is so fucked up. unfucking real. those assholes have no soul, inside of them is solid darkness & wasted space
Beheaded by extremists trying to hijack religion in response to shortsighted US foreign policy.
Theres your title.
Trying to hijack a religion? So far I'd say mission accomplished in the middle east.
Several years ago it was the Arab Spring and lots of people posting here were rejoicing that the people were rising up and dismantling US backed dictators.
Now that the Arab Spring has completely back-fired and crazy people are seizing the reigns of power, it is once again the US fault.
What? I don't see why your second and third paragraphs appear to be contradictory to you. Oh, it must be because in between you left out all the actual analysis that explains what happened. Because, you know, who cares about contextualization when you can just bitch about how "boo hoo, they blame everything on the poor US, the only superpower in the world. How dare they! We're just sitting by here idly, casually flying drones in Yemen and murdering dozens of people, families and children, and creating more people willing to join armed groups to fight against not only our government, but the autocrats there who we back. How dare they blame us for this. We backed a military coup of a democratically elected government in Egypt, despite it being against US law, and somehow they blame us. Boo hoo. We give over $1billion of aid a year to a military that slaughtered over 1,000 protesters in Egypt in a matter of hours, and somehow it's our fault. Why would they blame us? We support Israel with $3billion a year in aid, the same Israel that has killed over 2,000 people in Gaza in a matter of weeks, a quarter of them children, and somehow these idiots think 'its all the US' fault'... who do these assholes think they are? We back Saudi Arabia, perhaps the most repressive regime who publicly backs many of these groups, and people have the gall to blame us?!"
Or, you know, we could take into consideration how much US involvement in the Middle East has ACTUALLY fueled not just anti-American sentiment, but groups trying to rebel against modernity altogether. We could ACTUALLY try to understand the frustrations of not just the ordinary Middle Easterner, but even those who end up joining armed groups, rather than just say "No no, they're crazy ideologues, don't mind them. Just put a bullet in their hand, that's always the best medicine".
I also love the whole "The US is far from perfect" line that people have been throwing around here. I mean, millions of people made homeless, millions of people killed either directly by US bombs and sanctions or by those from US allies, and somehow the only thing we have to say is "Well, the US is far from perfect". By this twisted logic, should we just say "ISIS is far from perfect" or should we just acknowledge that the policies of the US have been absolutely evil with regards to the Middle East, given the level of extensive damage? Oh no no, the US is "liberating" the Arabs, minus a few hiccups here and there. By hiccups, you know, I mean millions of dead bodies, but yeah... so what's on TV?
Beheaded by extremists trying to hijack religion in response to shortsighted US foreign policy.
Theres your title.
Trying to hijack a religion? So far I'd say mission accomplished in the middle east.
Several years ago it was the Arab Spring and lots of people posting here were rejoicing that the people were rising up and dismantling US backed dictators.
Now that the Arab Spring has completely back-fired and crazy people are seizing the reigns of power, it is once again the US fault.
What? I don't see why your second and third paragraphs appear to be contradictory to you. Oh, it must be because in between you left out all the actual analysis that explains what happened. Because, you know, who cares about contextualization when you can just bitch about how "boo hoo, they blame everything on the poor US, the only superpower in the world. How dare they! We're just sitting by here idly, casually flying drones in Yemen and murdering dozens of people, families and children, and creating more people willing to join armed groups to fight against not only our government, but the autocrats there who we back. How dare they blame us for this. We backed a military coup of a democratically elected government in Egypt, despite it being against US law, and somehow they blame us. Boo hoo. We give over $1billion of aid a year to a military that slaughtered over 1,000 protesters in Egypt in a matter of hours, and somehow it's our fault. Why would they blame us? We support Israel with $3billion a year in aid, the same Israel that has killed over 2,000 people in Gaza in a matter of weeks, a quarter of them children, and somehow these idiots think 'its all the US' fault'... who do these assholes think they are? We back Saudi Arabia, perhaps the most repressive regime who publicly backs many of these groups, and people have the gall to blame us?!"
Or, you know, we could take into consideration how much US involvement in the Middle East has ACTUALLY fueled not just anti-American sentiment, but groups trying to rebel against modernity altogether. We could ACTUALLY try to understand the frustrations of not just the ordinary Middle Easterner, but even those who end up joining armed groups, rather than just say "No no, they're crazy ideologues, don't mind them. Just put a bullet in their hand, that's always the best medicine".
I also love the whole "The US is far from perfect" line that people have been throwing around here. I mean, millions of people made homeless, millions of people killed either directly by US bombs and sanctions or by those from US allies, and somehow the only thing we have to say is "Well, the US is far from perfect". By this twisted logic, should we just say "ISIS is far from perfect" or should we just acknowledge that the policies of the US have been absolutely evil with regards to the Middle East, given the level of extensive damage? Oh no no, the US is "liberating" the Arabs, minus a few hiccups here and there. By hiccups, you know, I mean millions of dead bodies, but yeah... so what's on TV?
Hello. Just wondering where you are from?
Still can't believe I met Mike Mccready at the Guggenheim and got a pic with him!!!!!
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
What's more salvage the Foley beheading or this account....too bad they didn't video it
In his book, Black Hearts: One Platoon’s Descent into Madness in Iraq’s Triangle of Death, Jim Frederick describes the 2006 extrajudicial execution of an Iraqi family of four—a father, mother and two daughters. According to Army Specialist Paul Cortez, his unit was on patrol south of Baghdad when Army Specialist James Barker suggested that they find an Iraqi woman to rape. “We’ve all killed Hadjis, but I’ve been here twice and I still never fucked one of these bitches,” Barker stated. Having chosen their target, the soldiers entered the house and locked three members of the Janabis family in the bedroom with Private First Class Steven Green standing guard over them. Meanwhile, Cortez took the 14-year-old daughter Abeer into the living room and began raping her. According to Frederick’s account: In the bedroom, Green was losing control of his prisoners. The woman made a run for the door. Green shot her once in the back and she fell to the floor. The man became unhinged. Green turned his own AK on him and pulled the trigger. It jammed. Panicking, as the man advanced on him, Green switched to his shotgun. The first shot blasted the top of the man’s head off. Then Green turned to the little girl, who was running for a corner. This time the AK worked. He raised the rifle and shot Hadeel in the back of the head. She fell to the ground. … As Green was executing the family, Cortez finished raping Abeer and switched positions with Barker. Green came out of the bedroom and announced to Barker and Cortez, “They’re all dead. I killed them all.” Cortez held Abeer down and Green raped her. Then Cortez pushed a pillow over her face, still pinning her arms with his knees. Green grabbed the AK, pointed the gun at the pillow, and fired one shot, killing Abeer.
That was terrible, but I don't understand what your point is.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Regarding the "moderate Muslims need to do more to combat extremism" line:
I think it's very condescending for someone in a position of privilege to talk to Muslims living in the Middle East this way. Tell me, what are YOU doing to combat Western imperial policies that allow for extremism to grow? As Drowned Out accurately mentioned, there is a long history of imperial and colonial practices by Western powers in the Middle East/South Asia/North Africa that allowed extremism to grow. And I often find on this board that many of you end up supporting some of these policies because there is a clear refusal to
Meanwhile, here you all are saying why aren't they doing enough. How about you do something? It's ironic to me that some of you even openly acknowledge that our policies created ISIS, but then support US military involvement in northern Iraq because "we created the mess [by intervening militarily] so now we have to fix it [by intervening militarily]." It's just interesting that there does not appear to be any critical thinking here. Any serious questioning of past policies specifically with regards to how they reflect our future engagement with this part of the world, is just nonexistent. And then we just blame the victims for not "doing enough" without actually being aware of the various debates going on in the Middle East, the trends and movements that exist there, how deep our own involvement is, etc etc. Nope, it's just "them" that aren't doing enough.
I wasn't talking about Muslims in the Middle East only. I was talking about Muslims all over the world. I can't remember fuck. Are you Muslim? If you are, then you have a different perspective on this thinking than the Muslims I've spoken to about it. I have seen only complete agreement from Muslims about how the Muslim world needs to do way, way more to combat Islamic extremism all over the world. The Muslims I've personally spoken to about it were: 1) 2nd generation Canadian, 2) Muslim of Indian decent raised and living in Thailand after being educated in Canada, 3) Iraqi refugee in Canada (his father was a member of the Iraqi communist party and escaped persecution with his family in the 1990s), 4) a Muslim born and raised in the UK, 5) a particularly devout Muslim from Bangladesh, 6) a Nigerian Muslim in Canada as a mature international student. Every one of these 6 people said that they completely agreed that the Muslim world has to do more to counter extremism, and 2 of them told me that they thought the reason more isn't done is because they believe Muslims tend to side with Muslims first no matter what - they said it was a sense of obligation to other Muslims that kept a lot of people from standing stronger against extremists. These people are not, of course, experts on the subject. They are just random Muslims (all men, btw... not sure if women might have a different perspective). So take it for what it's worth. Just thought their opinions were interesting and the seemed to support my supposition that the Muslim world needs to do more to stop and prevent Islamic extremism.
It's extremely telling to me that your arguments are so often based off of anecdotal evidence. "I ran into such-and-such person, and was told this, therefore it must be true." It's interesting that you are willing to give a voice to those Muslims you met and supposedly got to agree with your line of thinking, but you refuse to actually allow Muslims in the rest of the world their chance to speak to themselves -- and before you dispute this claim, I'll point to where you casually alleged that 25% (!) of Muslims in the Middle East are "radicals" without actually backing up the claim. When I refuted the link you posted, and pointed out that the number you cited was nowhere to even be found there, you typically ignored it.
Second, there are a few things that need to be said: First, it is one thing for a Muslim to say Muslims should do more to combat extremism, but an entirely different thing for a Westerner -- whose own government is largely responsible for fueling and supporting extremism in the Middle East -- to suggest it. Look to your own country's policies if you actually want to talk about this. But to even mention the idea that Muslims aren't doing enough without actually being aware of the various debates going on in the Middle East and even truly understanding the cultures and history here, is just plain condescending. Second, you can't cite anecdotal evidence as proof. It's insane to me that you think this is actually admissible as evidence in a discussion about something as serious as this. There could be various reasons why these people you spoke to said that. They could be referring to one instance, and yet agree to a question as general as "Can Muslims do more to combat extremism in the Middle East?" I mean it's just insane to then apply it to a discussion of "The reason extremism persists is because Muslims aren't doing enough to combat it". You may not have necessarily said the second statement - I don't have the time to go through this thread or others you've written in and check - but it is certainly inferred in people's posts here (not just yours).
You are decontextualizing this entire conversation, and not giving Muslims their due credit of truly appreciating the discussions and debates in the Middle East (in fact, I'd wager you aren't even aware of them), nor are you really acknowledging the extensive history of Western foreign involvement there. I mean, there are people who actually think we are going "back into" the Middle East during this latest intervention in Iraq, as if the US has not perpetually been IN the Middle East for the past 60 years! Not to mention Britain and France before that.
Lol, whatever man. I was indeed just telling a story about six Muslims I have known and talked to. I simply thought it was interesting. If you don't want to believe me and call me a liar I really don't give a shit. FYI, not every post has to look like a fucking essay. I thought we were having a conversation here. If you have a problem with someone talking about what they have personally dicussed with some other Muslims - in conversations where no one was trying to out do the other with how much they may or may not know about something, but just talking like normal people - then you have a problem, not me. How in the fuck can you claim that I am decontextualising something that I did not even address?? How can you say that I'm not giving middle eastern Muslim enough credit because I told you want some Muslim I know said?? Chill the fuck out. You seem to be trying to argue with me just for the sake of arguing at this point, or saying that if I don't say everything in the way that you want me to say it and don't include every point that you want people to say then that they are idiots or don't have other knowledge in their heads just because they didn't mention it. Gimme a fucking break. I mean, "admissible as evidence"???? What in the fuck are you talking about???? Where exactly do you think you are??
I wasn't even talking about the West's role, so have no clue why you brought it up. Just because that didn't happen to be the subject of my post doesn't mean I am not aware, concerned, knowledgeable about it. It just means that it's not the focus of my post. When I say that Muslims need to do much more to combat extremism that doesn't automatically mean that no one else needs to do something. Do I seriously even need to say that???
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Yet so many middle eastern muslim choose to immigrate to western countries ... hmmm ... surprised they'd want to live in such evil places.
Just a heads up, those Middle East immigrants DONT hate us Americans or our land, they hate our policies towards their countries and others. Like I've said BEFORE, when I was in syria, EVERY SINGLE ARAB I met welcomed me with open arms and offered me food, place to stay or rides anywhere I wanted to go to. They wanted NOTHING in return but a friendship. Now imagine that.
I know I wouldn't move to a land that I felt it's policies are effecting my homeland ,,, but that's just me. Personally I think they immigrate to the west for a better life, to get away from all the violence, their bat shit crazy leaders, etc ... and not all the violence has the stamp of the west on it. Yet the terrorist and radicals insist on destroying the lives of the innocent westerners who have 0 influence into their countries policies. Personally I think the west should just get completely get out of the middle east and that includes giving any country in the middle east 1 $$$ of aid ... and guaranteed even if the west got completely out, we'd still be blamed for something and the violence would still exist.
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
I know I wouldn't move to a land that I felt it's policies are effecting my homeland ,,, but that's just me. Personally I think they immigrate to the west for a better life, to get away from all the violence, their bat shit crazy leaders, etc ... and not all the violence has the stamp of the west on it. Yet the terrorist and radicals insist on destroying the lives of the innocent westerners who have 0 influence into their countries policies. Personally I think the west should just get completely get out of the middle east and that includes giving any country in the middle east 1 $$$ of aid ... and guaranteed even if the west got completely out, we'd still be blamed for something and the violence would still exist.
I totally agree that the west should just stay the hell out of the middle east when it comes to anything other than a purely humanitarian role, and only if asked. Pack up and go home and figure out some new alternative energy sources.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I know I wouldn't move to a land that I felt it's policies are effecting my homeland ,,, but that's just me. Personally I think they immigrate to the west for a better life, to get away from all the violence, their bat shit crazy leaders, etc ... and not all the violence has the stamp of the west on it. Yet the terrorist and radicals insist on destroying the lives of the innocent westerners who have 0 influence into their countries policies. Personally I think the west should just get completely get out of the middle east and that includes giving any country in the middle east 1 $$$ of aid ... and guaranteed even if the west got completely out, we'd still be blamed for something and the violence would still exist.
You were fortunate enough to be born in the west. Congrats
I also know this, I want my country, my government, my immigration officials to do the very best fucking job screening potential immigrates to make sure radials are weeded out and put on an airplane out of here, and the radicals that slip through the cracks need to have their hearing asap and if found to be radicalized in any way then they need to be deported immediately. They come to our countries as guest first, they are not citizens, if they want to bring their radical views we should not be welcoming them ... if muslims want to come and live a peaceful existence and protest peacefully, letter write etc...no problem.
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
I know I wouldn't move to a land that I felt it's policies are effecting my homeland ,,, but that's just me. Personally I think they immigrate to the west for a better life, to get away from all the violence, their bat shit crazy leaders, etc ... and not all the violence has the stamp of the west on it. Yet the terrorist and radicals insist on destroying the lives of the innocent westerners who have 0 influence into their countries policies. Personally I think the west should just get completely get out of the middle east and that includes giving any country in the middle east 1 $$$ of aid ... and guaranteed even if the west got completely out, we'd still be blamed for something and the violence would still exist.
I totally agree that the west should just stay the hell out of the middle east when it comes to anything other than a purely humanitarian role, and only if asked. Pack up and go home and figure out some new alternative energy sources.
I agree ... I think we in Canada are fortunate enough to have plenty of natural resources. But definitely an alternative energy source is what we should be developing.
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
Doesn't the US already try and keep radical extremists out of America? I would say that America very much does not welcome radical Muslims now. Do you feel like it does? Just trying to figure out what you're trying to say here.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Comments
In his book, Black Hearts: One Platoon’s Descent into Madness in Iraq’s Triangle of Death, Jim Frederick describes the 2006 extrajudicial execution of an Iraqi family of four—a father, mother and two daughters. According to Army Specialist Paul Cortez, his unit was on patrol south of Baghdad when Army Specialist James Barker suggested that they find an Iraqi woman to rape. “We’ve all killed Hadjis, but I’ve been here twice and I still never fucked one of these bitches,” Barker stated.
Having chosen their target, the soldiers entered the house and locked three members of the Janabis family in the bedroom with Private First Class Steven Green standing guard over them. Meanwhile, Cortez took the 14-year-old daughter Abeer into the living room and began raping her. According to Frederick’s account:
In the bedroom, Green was losing control of his prisoners. The woman made a run for the door. Green shot her once in the back and she fell to the floor. The man became unhinged. Green turned his own AK on him and pulled the trigger. It jammed. Panicking, as the man advanced on him, Green switched to his shotgun. The first shot blasted the top of the man’s head off. Then Green turned to the little girl, who was running for a corner. This time the AK worked. He raised the rifle and shot Hadeel in the back of the head. She fell to the ground. …
As Green was executing the family, Cortez finished raping Abeer and switched positions with Barker. Green came out of the bedroom and announced to Barker and Cortez, “They’re all dead. I killed them all.” Cortez held Abeer down and Green raped her. Then Cortez pushed a pillow over her face, still pinning her arms with his knees. Green grabbed the AK, pointed the gun at the pillow, and fired one shot, killing Abeer.
On June 16, a checkpoint manned by soldiers in the perpetrators' unit was attacked and overrun. Specialist David Babineau was killed and Pfcs Thomas Lowell Tucker and Kristian Menchaca were captured, tortured, and killed. When Yribe heard this, he told Pfc Justin Watt that Green was a murderer.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
I'm not absolving the ISIS mutants for their lunacy, but Foley took his chances. The girl and the family had no chance. My blood boiled reading that story.
So, if you are trying to draw a parallel to westerners (Americans) pointing their fingers at ISIS and shaking their heads... they'd do well to look in the mirror before doing so. You have successfully spoke to the hypocrisy of the west and our failures to recognize our own evil deeds.
It still doesn't mean though, that we should not be disgusted with ISIS behaviour- it's sheer madness and resembles something out of an apocalyptic horror movie.
Second, there are a few things that need to be said: First, it is one thing for a Muslim to say Muslims should do more to combat extremism, but an entirely different thing for a Westerner -- whose own government is largely responsible for fueling and supporting extremism in the Middle East -- to suggest it. Look to your own country's policies if you actually want to talk about this. But to even mention the idea that Muslims aren't doing enough without actually being aware of the various debates going on in the Middle East and even truly understanding the cultures and history here, is just plain condescending. Second, you can't cite anecdotal evidence as proof. It's insane to me that you think this is actually admissible as evidence in a discussion about something as serious as this. There could be various reasons why these people you spoke to said that. They could be referring to one instance, and yet agree to a question as general as "Can Muslims do more to combat extremism in the Middle East?" I mean it's just insane to then apply it to a discussion of "The reason extremism persists is because Muslims aren't doing enough to combat it". You may not have necessarily said the second statement - I don't have the time to go through this thread or others you've written in and check - but it is certainly inferred in people's posts here (not just yours).
You are decontextualizing this entire conversation, and not giving Muslims their due credit of truly appreciating the discussions and debates in the Middle East (in fact, I'd wager you aren't even aware of them), nor are you really acknowledging the extensive history of Western foreign involvement there. I mean, there are people who actually think we are going "back into" the Middle East during this latest intervention in Iraq, as if the US has not perpetually been IN the Middle East for the past 60 years! Not to mention Britain and France before that.
Or, you know, we could take into consideration how much US involvement in the Middle East has ACTUALLY fueled not just anti-American sentiment, but groups trying to rebel against modernity altogether. We could ACTUALLY try to understand the frustrations of not just the ordinary Middle Easterner, but even those who end up joining armed groups, rather than just say "No no, they're crazy ideologues, don't mind them. Just put a bullet in their hand, that's always the best medicine".
I also love the whole "The US is far from perfect" line that people have been throwing around here. I mean, millions of people made homeless, millions of people killed either directly by US bombs and sanctions or by those from US allies, and somehow the only thing we have to say is "Well, the US is far from perfect". By this twisted logic, should we just say "ISIS is far from perfect" or should we just acknowledge that the policies of the US have been absolutely evil with regards to the Middle East, given the level of extensive damage? Oh no no, the US is "liberating" the Arabs, minus a few hiccups here and there. By hiccups, you know, I mean millions of dead bodies, but yeah... so what's on TV?
that is beyond horrific. i am numb. death to those fucking cold blooded bastards. that is so fucked up. unfucking real. those assholes have no soul, inside of them is solid darkness & wasted space
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
badbrains please you're making me ill. where is the diarrhea emoticon?
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
I wasn't even talking about the West's role, so have no clue why you brought it up. Just because that didn't happen to be the subject of my post doesn't mean I am not aware, concerned, knowledgeable about it. It just means that it's not the focus of my post. When I say that Muslims need to do much more to combat extremism that doesn't automatically mean that no one else needs to do something. Do I seriously even need to say that???
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon