Imagine That -- I’m Still Anti-War

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  • dignin
    dignin Posts: 9,478
    Since this is the thread about a famous person who wrote a letter about being anti-war I figured this would be appropriate.



    MADRID – Dozens of Spanish film stars, directors, musicians and writers, led by Oscar winners Penelope Cruz, Javier Bardem and Pedro Almodovar, have denounced Israel's incursion into Gaza.

    In an open letter referenced by Europa Press and other Spanish media, they described Israel's actions as "genocide."

    They also called on the European Union to "condemn the bombing by land, sea and air against the Palestinian civilian population in the Gaza Strip."

    In the open letter, they demanded a cease-fire by the Israeli military and urged Israel to "lift the blockade, which the Gaza Strip has suffered for more than a decade."

    The letter also said: "Gaza is living through horror these days, besieged and attacked by land, sea and air. Palestinians' homes are being destroyed, they are being denied water, electricity [and] free movement to their hospitals, schools and fields while the international community does nothing.

    Others who signed the letter include directors Montxo Armendariz and Benito Zambrano; actors Lola Herrera, Eduardo Noriega and Rosa Maria Sarda; and musicians Amaral and Nacho Campillo.

    The entertainers blamed the new round of violence in the Middle East on the occupation of Palestinian land by Israel, which, the letter said, "continues to advance into and invade the Palestinian territories instead of returning to the 1967 borders."

    Almost 1,100 Palestinians and 56 Israelis have died since the Israeli military began its bombardments of Gaza three weeks ago, according to the latest reports.

    "http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/penelope-cruz-javier-bardem-denounce-721894?mobile_redirect=false
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited July 2014
    This needs to be repeated, in case anybody missed it the first time. I dedicate it to you BS44325

    http://www.broadsheet.ie/2014/07/29/dear-israelis/

    Dear Israelis!

    You need to know that your latest onslaught in Gaza guarantees that as a nation, you will be loathed and reviled by growing numbers of people around the world. No, not because you are jewish- that doesn’t come into it, but because you murder civilians in their 100s with your high-tech weaponry. Because you have burnt little children, blown their limbs off, killed their parents, their brothers and sisters, grandparents, aunts and uncles.

    You have destroyed their homes. Because you fire flechettes at human beings, because you use DIME bombs in densely crowded civilian areas, you have rained white phosphorous down on a school, you have killed disabled people in their residential home, killed sick people in intensive care when you bombed a hospital. You bombed a UN school where women and children had taken refuge and then lied about it. You bombed a playground on the first day of Eid Al Fitr, a festival akin to Christmas. That was your present to the little children who played on a roundabout in their new outfits, now wrapped in sheets in their graves. Again, you sent out your propagandists to lie.

    Since you destroyed the infrastructure of Gaza in 2008-2009, you have never allowed it to be rebuilt, leading to no sewage treatment, poor water supplies, sporadic electricity – in short you have made people’s lives as hard as they can possibly be. Relentlessly. You shoot farmers and fishermen who are doing their best to fight off poverty and fend for their families. You have done all these things and so much more, and then you lie to the world, trying to depict your victims as perpetrators, when it is you.

    You are the occupying power, you are the aggressor. You bully the policy and decision makers and use political influence to ensure that your version of events is the one that is repeated, as if it were the truth. But you are not fooling us all, and you will pay for your crimes in the international criminal court – of that I have no doubt.

    Call me an anti-semite and I will laugh at you as I know it is untrue, you will not shut me and others like me up. We will continue to speak out.

    We will boycott your products, we will call out with millions of voices around the world for divestment of funds from Israel and sanctions against you until you comply with international law, until you:

    1. End the occupation and colonization of all Arab lands and dismantle the Wall
    2. Recognize the fundamental rights of the Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel to full equality; and
    3. Respect, protect and promote the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties as stipulated in UN resolution 194.

    We will struggle against our governments and institutions that are complicit in your crimes until you find yourself alone.You can change your path. You can stand for rights, for justice, for humanity. I hope this is the choice you make. But in the end, the choice is yours.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    dignin said:

    Since this is the thread about a famous person who wrote a letter about being anti-war I figured this would be appropriate.


    MADRID – Dozens of Spanish film stars, directors, musicians and writers, led by Oscar winners Penelope Cruz, Javier Bardem and Pedro Almodovar, have denounced Israel's incursion into Gaza.

    In an open letter referenced by Europa Press and other Spanish media, they described Israel's actions as "genocide."

    They also called on the European Union to "condemn the bombing by land, sea and air against the Palestinian civilian population in the Gaza Strip."

    In the open letter, they demanded a cease-fire by the Israeli military and urged Israel to "lift the blockade, which the Gaza Strip has suffered for more than a decade."

    The letter also said: "Gaza is living through horror these days, besieged and attacked by land, sea and air. Palestinians' homes are being destroyed, they are being denied water, electricity [and] free movement to their hospitals, schools and fields while the international community does nothing.

    Others who signed the letter include directors Montxo Armendariz and Benito Zambrano; actors Lola Herrera, Eduardo Noriega and Rosa Maria Sarda; and musicians Amaral and Nacho Campillo.

    The entertainers blamed the new round of violence in the Middle East on the occupation of Palestinian land by Israel, which, the letter said, "continues to advance into and invade the Palestinian territories instead of returning to the 1967 borders."

    Almost 1,100 Palestinians and 56 Israelis have died since the Israeli military began its bombardments of Gaza three weeks ago, according to the latest reports.

    "http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/penelope-cruz-javier-bardem-denounce-721894?mobile_redirect=false

    Racists!

    Seriously, thanks for posting. Hopefully more and more people will begin speaking out, and as in the case of South Africa, the tide of opposition will eventually force the Israeli's to abide by international law.

    Israel needs to be hit with strict sanctions, and boycotts - including artistic boycotts. And those who are prepared to speak out against their oppression of the Palestinians need to get louder, and louder.

    Go to 08:35: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpI7PPndtmQ

  • BS44325
    BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    Byrnzie said:

    BS44325 said:

    No. That video is not understandable. One should not even try to understand it. It is pure filth and evil and has infected your movement. People like you have excused it as understandable for far too long that it has consumed everything positive from that part of the world. Israel could leave all of "Palestine" tomorrow and what would you have left? Within two weeks it would be another caliphate with no freedom of speech, no freedom of religion, no freedom for women, no freedom for gays and certainly no freedom for rock and roll. Post after post you criticize Israel for the horrors they have inflicted on Palestinian children when the ultimate horror inflicted is the future you have left them by being so understandable.

    Ah, the truth at last! BS44325 hates Muslims, and he justifies the slaughter of Palestinians with reference to an imaginary future.

    And he has the audacity to accuse me of being racist? Really?



    Not very mature on your part but this is a great place to illustrate where the difference between you and me actually is. You use the word Jew and Israel interchangeably. You think it is understandable for people to hate jews. I differentiate between Muslims and Hamas. I don't believe it is understandable to hate muslims, to expose them to extra scrutiny, to tap their phones. I believe there are many peaceful Palestinians both muslim and christian who will unfortunately be left to Hamas's militant rule. Palestine after Israel's disappearance will be no different then today's Iraq with ISIS in charge. In today's Iraq there is a real "extermination" of christians while muslims are being forced into sharia. This absolutely saddens me and makes me think that deep down I actually care about the future of Palestinians more then you. You don't care about the children. You just want a win.
  • BS44325
    BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    Byrnzie said:

    Keep deflecting. If you think you can silence us critics of Israel's race war against the Palestinians, then you're mistaken.

    It's not the critics of Israel's slaughter of Arabs that are the racists, it's you Islamophobes that are the racists.

    You are on the wrong side of history, just as the U.S was on the wrong side of history with it's full support of Apartheid South Africa.

    Everyone's just waiting for the Palestinians to find their Mandela. Unfortunately you ain't it.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    BS44325 said:

    Everyone's just waiting for the Palestinians to find their Mandela. Unfortunately you ain't it.

    Yep, keep trying to make this all about me, tough guy.

  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited July 2014
    BS44325 said:

    You think it is understandable for people to hate jews.

    That's right. Except you left out the part where I said "...at this point in time." Very important that part of my sentence. But don't let that get in the way of your slippery personal attacks on me.
    BS44325 said:

    I differentiate between Muslims and Hamas.

    Just as I've said on countless occasions that not all Jews support Israel. I've also said on many occasions that most of the most vocal and well known critics of Israel happen to be Jewish: Chomsky, Finkelstein, Michael Neumann, Gideon Levy, Uri Avery...

    Again, don't let the truth interfere with the massive hard-on you have for me.
    BS44325 said:

    Palestine after Israel's disappearance will be no different then today's Iraq with ISIS in charge.

    And your hypothetical future gives the Israeli's the right to follow the advice of Moshe Dayan, does it? It gives the Israeli's the right to continue being in massive violation of international law, and to continue committing war crimes against the Palestinians? Again, who's really the racist here?

    "We don't have a solution, and you will continue living like dogs, and whoever wants will go, and we will see how this procedure will work out. For now, it works out." - Moshe Dayan, former Israeli Chief of Defence

    Post edited by Byrnzie on
  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    Sad, this girl can't even look forward to growing up. At 16? My sister is 18 and I can't imagine her being in this situation:

    http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/middle-east-unrest/palestinian-teen-farah-baker-live-tweets-nighttime-bombardment-gaza-n167601
  • Leezestarr313
    Leezestarr313 Temple of the cat Posts: 14,451
    https://player.vimeo.com/video/50531435
    Please, Pearl Jam, consider a Benaroya Hall vinyl reissue! http://community.pearljam.com/discussion/148993/please-pearl-jam-consider-a-vinyl-benaroya-hall-re-issue


  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,734
    hedonist said:

    Damn hippie :D

    Truth be told, I'm listening to an old and absolutely gorgeous version of Elton singing Rocket Man. Brings a sense of uplifting but sadness too.

    "and I think it's gonna be a long long time"

    One of these days, a real hug given.

    fuckingedit! that was meant in response to Brian's post; didn't realize others had replied while I was.

    umm, to the folks who run this site...remember when we'd go to reply and a message would come up saying "so and so has posted in the interim" or something to that effect? It'd be nice to have that re-instituted.

    I'm catching up too, Hedonist. This thread runs quickly!
    Just the mention of Rocket Man and I can hear that sweet song playing. Nice!
    And yes, real hugs are always welcome. :-)

    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • BS44325
    BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    edited July 2014
    Byrnzie said:



    BS44325 said:

    Everyone's just waiting for the Palestinians to find their Mandela. Unfortunately you ain't it.

    Yep, keep trying to make this all about me, tough guy.

    Byrnzie said:

    BS44325 said:

    You think it is understandable for people to hate jews.

    That's right. Except you left out the part where I said "...at this point in time." Very important that part of my sentence. But don't let that get in the way of your slippery personal attacks on me.
    BS44325 said:

    I differentiate between Muslims and Hamas.

    Just as I've said on countless occasions that not all Jews support Israel. I've also said on many occasions that most of the most vocal and well known critics of Israel happen to be Jewish: Chomsky, Finkelstein, Michael Neumann, Gideon Levy, Uri Avery...

    Again, don't let the truth interfere with the massive hard-on you have for me.
    BS44325 said:

    Palestine after Israel's disappearance will be no different then today's Iraq with ISIS in charge.

    And your hypothetical future gives the Israeli's the right to follow the advice of Moshe Dayan, does it? It gives the Israeli's the right to continue being in massive violation of international law, and to continue committing war crimes against the Palestinians?

    No it doesn't. It doesn't give Israel the right to any of those things. I have said that before. I don't think you even know my politics. All I am doing is outlining the horror show that is Hamas but for some reason any discussion of this causes you to blow your top and yell "DEFLECTION". You realize that the Palestinian Authority, Egypt, Saudia Arabia and others are opposed to Hamas? You realize that the average Gazan wants to be rid of Hamas? You realize that any lasting peace will have to be made with a party other then Hamas? You have such a "with us or against us" mentality that you fail to see the myriad of view points people can hold at the same time. No one is trying to make it "all about you" but when it comes to forging peace it will be the "you's" of the world that will have to find a way to bend.

    Had to add this...

    I remember you writing earlier how happy you were when you heard Eddie's initial speech (this is a thread on his speech after all). Later you added how disappointed you were that Eddie (in your opinion) back-pedalled. I think what you fail to realize (and what might disappoint you more) is that his speech was actually directed at you. Not just you but all the people like you on all sides that are so stuck in a zone of perpetual conflict. It's not wrong to be outraged by violence but once violence ends peace will require so much more.
    Post edited by BS44325 on
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,734
    Byrnzie said:

    "I don’t know how to process the feeling of guilt and complicity when I hear about the
    deaths of a civilian family from a U.S. drone strike. But I know that we can’t let the sadness turn into apathy."     - Ed Vedder

    No doubt most everybody agrees with that sentiment too, Byrnzie. But what Ed said there was a preface to the heart of what he was trying to get across in his message to us- that despite the sadness and anger we can, do or probably ought to feel, we can still be against war, for peace, for love, for working together. That is the core message and it almost breaks my heart that you don't seem to want to hear that. Almost... until I see how much your anger feels like hatred. Anger is a powerful tool, B. You can use it do do great things, or you can let it merely increase the bitterness that throws shadows on the fields of hope. Please choose wisely.
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    BS44325 said:

    No it doesn't. It doesn't give Israel the right to any of those things. I have said that before. I don't think you even know my politics. All I am doing is outlining the horror show that is Hamas but for some reason any discussion of this causes you to blow your top and yell "DEFLECTION". You realize that the Palestinian Authority, Egypt, Saudia Arabia and others are opposed to Hamas? You realize that the average Gazan wants to be rid of Hamas? You realize that any lasting peace will have to be made with a party other then Hamas? You have such a "with us or against us" mentality that you fail to see the myriad of view points people can hold at the same time. No one is trying to make it "all about you" but when it comes to forging peace it will be the "you's" of the world that will have to find a way to bend.

    Hamas this, Hamas that...

    Israel's continuing illegal occupation has nothing to do with Hamas, just as it had nothing to do with Hamas before Hamas were created in 1987. Israel's illegal occupation and it's committing of war crimes cannot be justified with reference to Hamas.

  • BS44325
    BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    brianlux said:

    Byrnzie said:

    "I don’t know how to process the feeling of guilt and complicity when I hear about the
    deaths of a civilian family from a U.S. drone strike. But I know that we can’t let the sadness turn into apathy."     - Ed Vedder

    No doubt most everybody agrees with that sentiment too, Byrnzie. But what Ed said there was a preface to the heart of what he was trying to get across in his message to us- that despite the sadness and anger we can, do or probably ought to feel, we can still be against war, for peace, for love, for working together. That is the core message and it almost breaks my heart that you don't seem to want to hear that. Almost... until I see how much your anger feels like hatred. Anger is a powerful tool, B. You can use it do do great things, or you can let it merely increase the bitterness that throws shadows on the fields of hope. Please choose wisely.
    http://youtu.be/kFnFr-DOPf8
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,734
    BS44325 said:

    brianlux said:

    Byrnzie said:

    "I don’t know how to process the feeling of guilt and complicity when I hear about the
    deaths of a civilian family from a U.S. drone strike. But I know that we can’t let the sadness turn into apathy."     - Ed Vedder

    No doubt most everybody agrees with that sentiment too, Byrnzie. But what Ed said there was a preface to the heart of what he was trying to get across in his message to us- that despite the sadness and anger we can, do or probably ought to feel, we can still be against war, for peace, for love, for working together. That is the core message and it almost breaks my heart that you don't seem to want to hear that. Almost... until I see how much your anger feels like hatred. Anger is a powerful tool, B. You can use it do do great things, or you can let it merely increase the bitterness that throws shadows on the fields of hope. Please choose wisely.
    http://youtu.be/kFnFr-DOPf8
    Hahaha! Good one, BS44325. Oh, to be like Yoda!

    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • Leezestarr313
    Leezestarr313 Temple of the cat Posts: 14,451
    brianlux said:

    Byrnzie said:

    "I don’t know how to process the feeling of guilt and complicity when I hear about the
    deaths of a civilian family from a U.S. drone strike. But I know that we can’t let the sadness turn into apathy."     - Ed Vedder

    No doubt most everybody agrees with that sentiment too, Byrnzie. But what Ed said there was a preface to the heart of what he was trying to get across in his message to us- that despite the sadness and anger we can, do or probably ought to feel, we can still be against war, for peace, for love, for working together. That is the core message and it almost breaks my heart that you don't seem to want to hear that. Almost... until I see how much your anger feels like hatred. Anger is a powerful tool, B. You can use it do do great things, or you can let it merely increase the bitterness that throws shadows on the fields of hope. Please choose wisely.
    I like you, brianlux.


    Please, Pearl Jam, consider a Benaroya Hall vinyl reissue! http://community.pearljam.com/discussion/148993/please-pearl-jam-consider-a-vinyl-benaroya-hall-re-issue


  • BS44325
    BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    Byrnzie said:

    BS44325 said:

    No it doesn't. It doesn't give Israel the right to any of those things. I have said that before. I don't think you even know my politics. All I am doing is outlining the horror show that is Hamas but for some reason any discussion of this causes you to blow your top and yell "DEFLECTION". You realize that the Palestinian Authority, Egypt, Saudia Arabia and others are opposed to Hamas? You realize that the average Gazan wants to be rid of Hamas? You realize that any lasting peace will have to be made with a party other then Hamas? You have such a "with us or against us" mentality that you fail to see the myriad of view points people can hold at the same time. No one is trying to make it "all about you" but when it comes to forging peace it will be the "you's" of the world that will have to find a way to bend.

    Israel's illegal occupation and it's committing of war crimes cannot be justified with reference to Hamas.

    Correct and Hamas's committing of war crimes cannot be justified with reference to the "occupation".
  • BS44325
    BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    brianlux said:

    BS44325 said:

    brianlux said:

    Byrnzie said:

    "I don’t know how to process the feeling of guilt and complicity when I hear about the
    deaths of a civilian family from a U.S. drone strike. But I know that we can’t let the sadness turn into apathy."     - Ed Vedder

    No doubt most everybody agrees with that sentiment too, Byrnzie. But what Ed said there was a preface to the heart of what he was trying to get across in his message to us- that despite the sadness and anger we can, do or probably ought to feel, we can still be against war, for peace, for love, for working together. That is the core message and it almost breaks my heart that you don't seem to want to hear that. Almost... until I see how much your anger feels like hatred. Anger is a powerful tool, B. You can use it do do great things, or you can let it merely increase the bitterness that throws shadows on the fields of hope. Please choose wisely.
    http://youtu.be/kFnFr-DOPf8
    Hahaha! Good one, BS44325. Oh, to be like Yoda!

    I'm the only fucking Jedi on here!
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    brianlux said:

    But what Ed said there was a preface to the heart of what he was trying to get across in his message to us

    No it wasn't. Those words are at the end of his message, not at the beginning of it.
    brianlux said:

    - that despite the sadness and anger we can, do or probably ought to feel, we can still be against war, for peace, for love, for working together. That is the core message and it almost breaks my heart that you don't seem to want to hear that.

    Once again, trying to make this all about me.

    Why don't you try taking me out of the equation. This isn't about me. Do I feel anger when I see that people are being slaughtered in their hundreds by racists? Yeah, I do. So what?
    brianlux said:

    "Anger is a powerful tool, B. You can use it do do great things, or you can let it merely increase the bitterness that throws shadows on the fields of hope."

    Thanks. Would you also like me to change my name to Grasshopper?



  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Seriously, for a moment there I thought Pandora had returned to torment me.
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