botched execution in oklahoma...

Halifax2TheMax said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

JimmyV said:

callen said:

cjzoly said:

Lead, Gunpowder and Brass...I don't think there is a shortage of those items and not near as costly either...Problem solved...

So let's do some public executions. Stonings as well. Hell lottery tickets to help participate. Pay per view.

Do we not see how ironic it is we shake our heads in disgust at what happens in fundamentalist Muslim countries but have no problem saying. "He'll let me pull the switch or just use firing squad".

Do we not realize that the rest of the civilized western world looks at us as we do at others.

I know we don't care what others think but in this case it's good to look at the US through others eyes.

We have to rise above our need for vengeance using barbaric means as this case clearly demonstrates. See how I tied it back to the topic.

It doesn't matter how many murderers are put to death in the U.S., I will always shake my head at comparisons with fundament Muslim countries. When women here are being buried to their waists and publicly stoned for the crime of adultery...ADULTERY...only then would the comparison be valid.

It is one thing to be disgusted by these crimes and to call for swift, violent justice. It is quite another when the system breaks down and allows it to happen. The system in Oklahoma broke down. As disgusting as the results were, that is what happened. Let us not pretend the reason this happened was because anyone wanted a violent, public execution. No matter how strong that sentiment might be it is not the designed result of the system we have in place.

I still have a really hard time getting my head around the fact that they couldn't produce a drug to do the job efficiently. How hard would it be to administer a strong sedative followed by a lethal dose of something they know would work?

It's as if Homer Simpson and Barney were handling the operation.

Whoa there! Do you mean Barney the purple dinosaur, Barney Fife, Barney Rubble, Barney Miller or some other Barney? Depending on how you answer may determine whether I'm offended.

Peace.

Barney Gumble (Homer's beer drinking, burping pub buddy).

He had a lot of potential, but his love of beer derailed what was looking like a promising career as an astronaut.

.

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

callen said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

callen said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

callen said:

cjzoly said:

Lead, Gunpowder and Brass...I don't think there is a shortage of those items and not near as costly either...Problem solved...

So let's do some public executions. Stonings as well. Hell lottery tickets to help participate. Pay per view.

Do we not see how ironic it is we shake our heads in disgust at what happens in fundamentalist Muslim countries but have no problem saying. "He'll let me pull the switch or just use firing squad".

Do we not realize that the rest of the civilized western world looks at us as we do at others.

I know we don't care what others think but in this case it's good to look at the US through others eyes.

We have to rise above our need for vengeance using barbaric means as this case clearly demonstrates. See how I tied it back to the topic.

I would say people need to rise above their need to rape and murder women and children.

The opponents of the DP almost always suggest that proponents are acting from emotion with vengeance in mind- that they need to be impartial. Well... what is impartial justice for such a horrific crime? What is a fair punishment for raping and murdering an infant like the idiot that was spared his execution following the debacle? If you are telling me that a fair punishment is, say, 30 years behind bars... I would say to you that it is not I that is being impartial.

It's not 'playing God' deciding who lives and who dies... it's dealing with what's been shoved down our throats in a manner befitting of the crime. These executions- even this horrific one- are infinitely more merciful than the crimes these people have committed: they are not gagged, raped, and tortured to death.

Okay Thirty was trying to keep this related to thread topic but........

We can't control criminals actions but we can control ours. Society should rise above killing. Killing is wrong. Yeah we're going round and round.

Injecting person with poison/killing has no benefits but deteriorating our society. See got thread topic in again.

Injecting people with poison has the benefit of removing dangerous people from our midst. Some would argue that it actually improves our society.

There... two sides presented.

Back to the thread.

Two sides presented huh? Think you were just shooting for the last word.

)

No... I just can't shut up sometimes.

Wolf mentioned he would like to see charges pressed over this incident. Is there a case that could be made against the people who pressed forward without allowing the process to completely take place prior to the execution?

Yeah well think a lot of us on the board are the same in not knowing when to shut up. But that's what keeps the train moving and hell it's fun. Or should be.

As to charges, if it can be proven there was negligence why not. As to punishment, tough one.

polaris_x said:

i wonder what the just response is to all these innocent people dying at the hands of US drones strikes?

Wrong thread, no?

Last-12-Exit said:

Does anyone seriously think that eliminating the death penalty will lower murder rates? Seriously? Somebody said it earlier, when it comes to civil rights, I think America is way ahead of the rest of the world. The 15 people executed a year is not hurting that. Even if all of the executions are botched.

Btw, I remember you Chadwick, your the guy with the beard, right?

I don't think I have ever heard anyone say that eliminating the death penalty would lower murder rates, unless, of course, you count the murders that don't occur because there is nobody being executed (so actually, haha, yeah, eliminating it would lower murder rates after all!). The only thing that I've ever heard people argue, and it's an argument that I make myself, is that the death penalty doesn't lower murder rates, i.e. it doesn't do anything at all as a deterrent. Since it acting as a deterrent is one argument that those who love legalized murder sometimes make, the fact that it doesn't deter murderers at all is an important point.

Also, I would say that having the death penalty as opposed to not having a death penalty hurts a nation's HUMAN rights record very severely. It's one of the first things that the UN and Amnesty International consider when gauging how good human rights are in a country. As far as CIVIL rights go.... that is a big can 'o worms in America to say the least, given all the issues surrounding how many black men are on death row, and how black criminals are much more likely to end up on death row compared to white men who committed the same crime.

hedonist said:

PJ_Soul said:

I don't think I have ever heard anyone ever say that eliminating the death penalty would lower murder rates, unless, of course, you count the murders that don't occur because there is no penalty (so actually, haha, yeah, eliminating it would lower murder rates after all!). The only thing that I've ever heard people argue, and it's an argument that I make myself, is that the death penalty doesn't lower murder rates, i.e. it doesn't do anything at all as a deterrent. Since it acting as a deterrent is one argument that those who love legalized murder sometimes make, the fact that it doesn't deter murderers at all is an important point.

Hey! I resemble that.

Really though, while I support capital punishment I don't "love" it. That's really not a fair assessment to make.

Just a turn of phrase really - nothing personal.
(but SOME people really do love it!)

PJ_Soul said:

unsung said:

JimmyV said:

I am of two minds on the last meal thing. On one hand, a last meal of his choosing is just one more comfort that this guy did not deserve. On the other, it is also another breakdown in standard operating procedure during an execution that was thoroughly botched.

I won't lose any sleep because this guy didn't get his last meal, but it does raise one more question about the conduct of those charged with carrying out his sentence.

Did he give his victim the opportunity to have a last meal?

That really isn't the point.
Plus, I don't personally agree with the idea that those who make and enforce the law should act the same as a vicious murderer who is on death row.

My point is that I am not sympathetic to his plight. I show him the same regard he gave his victim.

different story same paper....

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/05/01/oklahoma-clayton-lockett-execution/8570625/

Oklahoma prison guards Tasered a defiant Clayton Lockett early Tuesday, and a medical technician had trouble finding a suitable vein for the lethal drugs that eventually killed him that evening, the head of the Corrections Department reported Thursday.

Lockett also deliberately cut his right arm before dawn Tuesday and was treated at a prison hospital, but the wound did not require stitches.

Corrections Department Director Robert Patton made the disclosures in a timeline provided to Gov. Mary Fallin, who ordered a review of the murderer's botched execution. Lockett writhed and convulsed as the three-drug cocktail was being administered, and he ultimately died of a heart attack 43 minutes later.

Patton also recommended that the execution of Charles Warner, originally set for two hours after Lockett's but rescheduled for May 13, be postponed indefinitely.

Patton's timeline details Lockett's final 14 hours. It begins at 5:06 a.m. CT, when a prison "emergency response team" arrives at his cell to escort him for X-rays, and ends at 7:06 p.m., when his is pronounced dead.

After his self-inflicted wound was discovered, three guards then watched him until he was taken to the execution chamber about 5:20 p.m. CT.

Throughout the day, he refused to be restrained, refused to see his lawyers, refused a final tray of food, refused to make a final statement.

After Lockett was strapped down on the execution table, a phlebotomist spent almost 50 minutes seeking a usable vein in his arms, legs, feet or neck, finally inserting the needle into his groin, which was then covered by a sheet to block the view of witnesses.

The first of the three execution drugs — midazolam, a sedative — began flowing at 6:23 p.m. Ten minutes later, after Lockett is declared unconscious, the executioner administers the final two drugs — vecuronium bromide, a muscle relaxant, and potassium chloride, which stops the heart.

Nearly 20 minutes later, a doctor discovered that the vein had collapsed and that the drugs "had either absorbed into tissue, leaked out or both," the report states. The warden then notified Patton, who was told that not enough drugs had been administered to cause death, that no other vein was usable and that not enough of the chemicals remained to complete the execution.

At 6:56 p.m., Patton halted the execution after a doctor reported that Lockett was unconscious and that he detected a faint heartbeat.

At 7:06 p.m., Lockett was pronounced dead after having a heart attack.
61 COMMENT



ok, this raises a valid point here and in other cases. They couldnt find a vein that could handle the needle, what they did find apparently blew out. Its not the first time this has been an issue, this method of punishment being used in this state and others, I wonder what will be put into place so sentence can be carried out.

Death, no matter how it happens, isnt a painfree thing. So to say that medically , being gassed, electrocuted, firing squad is cruel seems to miss the point. DEATH isnt all sunshine and rainbows.

Its funny, we have in some states , assisted suicide. Where do folks stand on that issue? To hear from those providers who help those folks transition to whatever is next are quite clear that death is a painfilled thing.

I foresee a business opportunity for some enterprising person(s). manufacture of these drugs here in the states. Sounds cold and calloused right? Welcome to capitalism.

PJ_Soul said:

polaris_x said:

i wonder what the just response is to all these innocent people dying at the hands of US drones strikes?

Wrong thread, no?

yes and no ... yes in that this thread ideally should be about the execution process ... no, in that people here believe that people who commit horrible crimes should suffer ... and i'm pretty sure those people would not support the inhumane suffering of an american army officer ...

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

polaris_x said:

PJ_Soul said:

polaris_x said:

i wonder what the just response is to all these innocent people dying at the hands of US drones strikes?

Wrong thread, no?

yes and no ... yes in that this thread ideally should be about the execution process ... no, in that people here believe that people who commit horrible crimes should suffer ... and i'm pretty sure those people would not support the inhumane suffering of an american army officer ...

I think its a cheap shot to say proponents want to see them suffer. I've read multiple opponents of the DP insist prison would be way worse than death... so, if that is actually true, seeking a prison term does not preclude you from wanting to see them suffer too (unless prison isn't befitting of a person who rapes and murders women or children as well).

Poor murderers, eh?

How about we not dignify people like Michael Rafferty by comparing them to our grandparents that died in World War II... or those currently serve somewhere under orders from their country?

dude ... read the thread - I don't really feel like copying and pasting the comments ...

secondly ... you talk so passionately of the anguish the families of victims feel and that those feeling should be taken into consideration when doling out justice ... and now - you want to ignore all the innocent people that have died at the ammo of US army just because they were orders from their country? ...

polaris_x said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

polaris_x said:

PJ_Soul said:

polaris_x said:

i wonder what the just response is to all these innocent people dying at the hands of US drones strikes?

Wrong thread, no?

yes and no ... yes in that this thread ideally should be about the execution process ... no, in that people here believe that people who commit horrible crimes should suffer ... and i'm pretty sure those people would not support the inhumane suffering of an american army officer ...

I think its a cheap shot to say proponents want to see them suffer. I've read multiple opponents of the DP insist prison would be way worse than death... so, if that is actually true, seeking a prison term does not preclude you from wanting to see them suffer too (unless prison isn't befitting of a person who rapes and murders women or children as well).

Poor murderers, eh?

How about we not dignify people like Michael Rafferty by comparing them to our grandparents that died in World War II... or those currently serve somewhere under orders from their country?

dude ... read the thread - I don't really feel like copying and pasting the comments ...

secondly ... you talk so passionately of the anguish the families of victims feel and that those feeling should be taken into consideration when doling out justice ... and now - you want to ignore all the innocent people that have died at the ammo of US army just because they were orders from their country? ...

You made the comment in the post I quoted. I understand the context in which your comment was made.

I'm not supporting war by any stretch of the imagination- it's horrific- but there is a difference between a predator that hunts victims in our streets and a soldier carrying out soldierly duties. This is my only point and I think it stands.