botched execution in oklahoma...

hedonist

callen said:

TB. You may not want them to suffer but reading posts here as well as other sites and talking to associates that are proponents, they do indeed want them to suffer. Think this is a main reason for people supporting death penalty.

callen, the term "suffer the consequences" comes to mind.

I'm not pro-torture, but I have no issue with someone like the piece of shit who raped and killed an 11-month-old (how, HOW, is that even possible?) having a rough go at the rest of his life.

polaris_x

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

You made the comment in the post I quoted. I understand the context in which your comment was made.

I'm not supporting war by any stretch of the imagination- it's horrific- but there is a difference between a predator that hunts victims in our streets and a soldier carrying out soldierly duties. This is my only point and I think it stands.

so what is your response to the families that watch their innocent children die a horrific death from bombs? ... sorry ... oh well ... no justice whatsover for you ... what was the US response to 9-11? ... a flat out massacre where way more innocent lives were killed than were lost in 9-11 ...

callen

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

callen said:

TB. You may not want them to suffer but reading posts here as well as other sites and talking to associates that are proponents, they do indeed want them to suffer. Think this is a main reason for people supporting death penalty.

A main reason? Callen... come on, man. When you say something like this, I get the impression you gloss over any efforts made by the side of the discussion you disagree with.

How about I say a main reason people oppose the DP is because they think every life is valuable and they wish to rehabilitate poor, misunderstood murderers as quickly as possible to give them a second chance in society.

There has been some indifference to the plight of the rapist/murderer who suffered in the botched execution. It's hard to generate any sympathy for a man who rapes a teenager, shoots her, and then buries her alive while clowning around and having a good time with his buddies. But with that said, several proponents for the DP- including me- have lamented the fact that this was handled poorly and was unfortunate.

Proponents have not been giving virtual high fives over this case: "Hey... we wanted suffering and look... right on... we got 'extra' suffering!"

This Is my opinion and I'll stick to it. Derived from reading lots on DP and talking to many. And how many here dismissed what this dude went through. It's human nature to want revenge and a little pain to go along with it. Strongly believe there are a minority of death proponents that would want a true painless death process. I know it would make one question their motivations but it is what it is.

callen

He shot a 19 year old woman with a sawed off shotgun and then watched as 2 accomplices buried her alive. She happened to walk in on him as he was robbing the house. Who cares what happened to him on the gurney. He did it to himself.
Quote

BLACK35 Posts: 13,216
April 30
don't feel sorry for him, what goes around comes around. Glad he suffered
Quote

Just from first few posts to this thread and can get millions more

Thirty Bills Unpaid

polaris_x said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

You made the comment in the post I quoted. I understand the context in which your comment was made.

I'm not supporting war by any stretch of the imagination- it's horrific- but there is a difference between a predator that hunts victims in our streets and a soldier carrying out soldierly duties. This is my only point and I think it stands.

so what is your response to the families that watch their innocent children die a horrific death from bombs? ... sorry ... oh well ... no justice whatsover for you ... what was the US response to 9-11? ... a flat out massacre where way more innocent lives were killed than were lost in 9-11 ...

My response is sorrow, but 'my' response means nothing. The response of the embattled is something I might have to brace for though. Retaliation is sure to follow in some form- it can only be one-sided for so long.

callen

hedonist said:

callen said:

TB. You may not want them to suffer but reading posts here as well as other sites and talking to associates that are proponents, they do indeed want them to suffer. Think this is a main reason for people supporting death penalty.

callen, the term "suffer the consequences" comes to mind.

I'm not pro-torture, but I have no issue with someone like the piece of shit who raped and killed an 11-month-old (how, HOW, is that even possible?) having a rough go at the rest of his life.

Oh lotsa pieces of shit but doesn't mean we kill like them.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

callen said:

hedonist said:

callen said:

TB. You may not want them to suffer but reading posts here as well as other sites and talking to associates that are proponents, they do indeed want them to suffer. Think this is a main reason for people supporting death penalty.

callen, the term "suffer the consequences" comes to mind.

I'm not pro-torture, but I have no issue with someone like the piece of shit who raped and killed an 11-month-old (how, HOW, is that even possible?) having a rough go at the rest of his life.

Oh lotsa pieces of shit but doesn't mean we kill like them.

We don't kill like them. Who wishes to rape them, torture them, and bury them alive?

And for the poor guy who killed the 11 month old... how do you kill like him?

JimmyV

polaris_x said:

there is already a death penalty thread where the same arguments have been discussed endlessly ...

The same could be said for a discussion of drones.

callen

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

callen said:

hedonist said:

callen said:

TB. You may not want them to suffer but reading posts here as well as other sites and talking to associates that are proponents, they do indeed want them to suffer. Think this is a main reason for people supporting death penalty.

callen, the term "suffer the consequences" comes to mind.

I'm not pro-torture, but I have no issue with someone like the piece of shit who raped and killed an 11-month-old (how, HOW, is that even possible?) having a rough go at the rest of his life.

Oh lotsa pieces of shit but doesn't mean we kill like them.

We don't kill like them. Who wishes to rape them, torture them, and bury them alive?

And for the poor guy who killed the 11 month old... how do you kill like him?

I get what your saying and we've hashed this point to death (HA). Killing is wrong. Cannot be presented as solution to societies problems. Every time we execute someone we are adding to this cycle.

callen

JimmyV said:

polaris_x said:

there is already a death penalty thread where the same arguments have been discussed endlessly ...

The same could be said for a discussion of drones.

Touché.

JimmyV

callen said:

.

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

callen said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

callen said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

callen said:

cjzoly said:

Lead, Gunpowder and Brass...I don't think there is a shortage of those items and not near as costly either...Problem solved...

So let's do some public executions. Stonings as well. Hell lottery tickets to help participate. Pay per view.

Do we not see how ironic it is we shake our heads in disgust at what happens in fundamentalist Muslim countries but have no problem saying. "He'll let me pull the switch or just use firing squad".

Do we not realize that the rest of the civilized western world looks at us as we do at others.

I know we don't care what others think but in this case it's good to look at the US through others eyes.

We have to rise above our need for vengeance using barbaric means as this case clearly demonstrates. See how I tied it back to the topic.

I would say people need to rise above their need to rape and murder women and children.

The opponents of the DP almost always suggest that proponents are acting from emotion with vengeance in mind- that they need to be impartial. Well... what is impartial justice for such a horrific crime? What is a fair punishment for raping and murdering an infant like the idiot that was spared his execution following the debacle? If you are telling me that a fair punishment is, say, 30 years behind bars... I would say to you that it is not I that is being impartial.

It's not 'playing God' deciding who lives and who dies... it's dealing with what's been shoved down our throats in a manner befitting of the crime. These executions- even this horrific one- are infinitely more merciful than the crimes these people have committed: they are not gagged, raped, and tortured to death.

Okay Thirty was trying to keep this related to thread topic but........

We can't control criminals actions but we can control ours. Society should rise above killing. Killing is wrong. Yeah we're going round and round.

Injecting person with poison/killing has no benefits but deteriorating our society. See got thread topic in again.

Injecting people with poison has the benefit of removing dangerous people from our midst. Some would argue that it actually improves our society.

There... two sides presented.

Back to the thread.

Two sides presented huh? Think you were just shooting for the last word.

)

No... I just can't shut up sometimes.

Wolf mentioned he would like to see charges pressed over this incident. Is there a case that could be made against the people who pressed forward without allowing the process to completely take place prior to the execution?

Yeah well think a lot of us on the board are the same in not knowing when to shut up. But that's what keeps the train moving and hell it's fun. Or should be.

As to charges, if it can be proven there was negligence why not. As to punishment, tough one.

If it can be proven there was negligence there should be punishment, but I think that punishment would likely be termination of employment rather than criminal prosecution. That is of course assuming this was a malfunction of the tools provided for the execution and not a deliberate attempt to make this man suffer. If it is proven to be the latter there should be a criminal prosecution.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

JimmyV said:

callen said:

.

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

callen said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

callen said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

callen said:

cjzoly said:

Lead, Gunpowder and Brass...I don't think there is a shortage of those items and not near as costly either...Problem solved...

So let's do some public executions. Stonings as well. Hell lottery tickets to help participate. Pay per view.

Do we not see how ironic it is we shake our heads in disgust at what happens in fundamentalist Muslim countries but have no problem saying. "He'll let me pull the switch or just use firing squad".

Do we not realize that the rest of the civilized western world looks at us as we do at others.

I know we don't care what others think but in this case it's good to look at the US through others eyes.

We have to rise above our need for vengeance using barbaric means as this case clearly demonstrates. See how I tied it back to the topic.

I would say people need to rise above their need to rape and murder women and children.

The opponents of the DP almost always suggest that proponents are acting from emotion with vengeance in mind- that they need to be impartial. Well... what is impartial justice for such a horrific crime? What is a fair punishment for raping and murdering an infant like the idiot that was spared his execution following the debacle? If you are telling me that a fair punishment is, say, 30 years behind bars... I would say to you that it is not I that is being impartial.

It's not 'playing God' deciding who lives and who dies... it's dealing with what's been shoved down our throats in a manner befitting of the crime. These executions- even this horrific one- are infinitely more merciful than the crimes these people have committed: they are not gagged, raped, and tortured to death.

Okay Thirty was trying to keep this related to thread topic but........

We can't control criminals actions but we can control ours. Society should rise above killing. Killing is wrong. Yeah we're going round and round.

Injecting person with poison/killing has no benefits but deteriorating our society. See got thread topic in again.

Injecting people with poison has the benefit of removing dangerous people from our midst. Some would argue that it actually improves our society.

There... two sides presented.

Back to the thread.

Two sides presented huh? Think you were just shooting for the last word.

)

No... I just can't shut up sometimes.

Wolf mentioned he would like to see charges pressed over this incident. Is there a case that could be made against the people who pressed forward without allowing the process to completely take place prior to the execution?

Yeah well think a lot of us on the board are the same in not knowing when to shut up. But that's what keeps the train moving and hell it's fun. Or should be.

As to charges, if it can be proven there was negligence why not. As to punishment, tough one.

If it can be proven there was negligence there should be punishment, but I think that punishment would likely be termination of employment rather than criminal prosecution. That is of course assuming this was a malfunction of the tools provided for the execution and not a deliberate attempt to make this man suffer. If it is proven to be the latter there should be a criminal prosecution.

I agree with this.

The job of administering death was done, but the process was not followed with regards to certifying the chemicals (I recall they 'rushed' to a satisfactory conclusion prior to administering the lethal injection). In which case, the 'employee(s)' that pushed things forward could certainly be held accountable. As well... as you say... if it can be proven there was a malicious and deviated scheme to have things play out as they did... then that is criminal behaviour.

mickeyrat

As is being reported now, his vein collapsed and this was not seen til right before the curtains closed.

.Fucked up human being. Not sorry he got the sentence he did, but its a shame he experienced what he did. Perhaps had he confessed or showed soem measure of remorse he might have received a different sentence?

Sentence carried out successfully .Death was handed down and death is what he got .However there should be a set of "what if this, then we do this" procedures in place with greater attention to detail.

wolfamongwolves

Europe taught America how to end the death penalty. Now maybe it finally will

When it comes to capital punishment, the US today is like South Africa in the 80s. But an EU boycott has opened up a final frontier

James Gibson and Corinna Barrett Lain
theguardian.com, Monday 5 May 2014 10.45 BST

Coverage of America's latest lethal injection debacle has played and replayed the ugly details of last Tuesday's botched execution in Oklahoma, once again throwing the nation's death penalty problems into the international spotlight. Experimental drug combinations. Secret procedures. Proposals for the return of the electric chair and firing squads. Every one of those problems, it should be noted, can be traced back to European activism.

For decades, Europe has done all it could to bring its anti-death penalty stance to the United States. We've seen international covenants and conventions, refusals to expedite in capital cases, good old-fashioned diplomacy, even EU briefs to the US supreme court. Nothing has worked. Until now. Over the last several years, Europe has found a way to export its rejection of capital punishment ... by refusing to export lethal injection drugs to the United States.

In the private sector, European pharmaceutical companies caught wind of the increasing reality that their products were being diverted to execution chambers, so they either imposed end-user agreements on buyers or stopped producing the drugs altogether. In the public sector, Britain responded by imposing export controls on drugs used for lethal injection and joined a chorus of countries calling for the European Commission to do the same, which it did.

When it comes to the death penalty, the United States today is what South Africa was in the 1980s. It is the subject of a targeted boycott of goods based on behavior that the rest of the world views as immoral. That's a mighty strange place to be for the self-declared leader of the free world.

You might ask: so what? The US is still executing, and Europe's boycott hasn't slowed down executions in states like Texas, where the death penalty is as much a part of life as grits are for breakfast in the American South. If anything, the dearth of lethal injection drugs has provided an excuse for blood-thirsty states to speed up executions, rather than slow them down.

That much is true, but Europe's boycott is the reason states are experimenting with new lethal injection drug protocols. It's the reason they are fighting to protect the secrecy of their sources. It's the reason they are considering far more controversial methods of execution.

Those developments may seem desperate and dangerous, but they are having second-order effects that have opened up a new legal frontier: Americans are a litigious bunch, and new avenues of attack on experimental drug cocktails and the shroud of secrecy surrounding their use could bog down the administration of the death penalty for years.

And this level of public attention to capital punishment has not been seen in decades. Every new debacle creates space in the public discourse to talk about its problems. Grossly inadequate counsel. Racial discrimination. Geographic arbitrariness. Excessive cost. Exonerations of death row inmates – over 140 of them so far.

A final effect of Europe's activism may be in US legal norms. The American jurisprudence of death pins constitutional protection on "evolving standards of decency" and relies on what the states are doing as primary evidence of what those standards of decency are. The more states walk away from the death penalty, the more likely the US supreme court will at some point turn the lights out on America's machinery of death.

Historically, the death penalty has been the epitome of American exceptionalism and isolationism. In the wake of Europe's lethal injection drug boycott, America can take steps to maintain its exceptionalism. It can double-down on death, no matter what the EU does. If it cannot inject inmates, it can hang them. Or shoot them. Or electrocute or gas them.

But the same is not true for American isolationism on the death penalty. That is gone for good.

A perfect storm is now swirling around capital punishment in America, and it is a storm that Europe has had a strong hand in creating. Granted, it likely won't affect states where the death penalty is deeply entrenched. But six US states have abolished the death penalty in the last seven years, and its legitimacy in the United States is evaporating with every execution gone horribly wrong. For other governors leaning toward a humane solution to this increasingly inhumane problem, last Tuesday night's disaster in Oklahoma may just be enough bad publicity to tip the scales. As Brendan Behan said, there's no such thing as bad publicity – except your own obituary.

JimmyV

The death penalty doesn't need to be abolished. It only needs to be used less often and more appropriately.

Also, I wouldn't put too much hope in this iteration of the Supreme Court abolishing anything that is popular in red state America. At some point in the future perhaps but it seems to be an unlikely scenario right now.

callen

So less innocent people are killed and we show that we are less like the killers we kill.

mickeyrat

callen said:

So less innocent people are killed and we show that we are less like the killers we kill.

unless its about the 2nd amendment, then all bets are off.

even flow - question mark

polaris_x said:

PJ_Soul said:

polaris_x said:

i wonder what the just response is to all these innocent people dying at the hands of US drones strikes?

Wrong thread, no?

yes and no ... yes in that this thread ideally should be about the execution process ... no, in that people here believe that people who commit horrible crimes should suffer ... and i'm pretty sure those people would not support the inhumane suffering of an american army officer ...

I would!

There was some discussion about this (the botched death thingy)the other day on the radio and the guy suggested carbon monoxide, plain and simple.

PJ_Soul

even flow - question mark said:

polaris_x said:

PJ_Soul said:

polaris_x said:

i wonder what the just response is to all these innocent people dying at the hands of US drones strikes?

Wrong thread, no?

yes and no ... yes in that this thread ideally should be about the execution process ... no, in that people here believe that people who commit horrible crimes should suffer ... and i'm pretty sure those people would not support the inhumane suffering of an american army officer ...

I would!

There was some discussion about this (the botched death thingy)the other day on the radio and the guy suggested carbon monoxide, plain and simple.

It is recommended by the Hemlock Society to be the least painful and unpleasant do-it-yourself way to commit suicide where euthanasia isn't legal and you can't get your hands on drugs like morphine or pentobarbital (i.e. the old pipe from the muffler to your car window trick).

Godfather.

PJ_Soul said:

even flow - question mark said:

polaris_x said:

PJ_Soul said:

polaris_x said:

i wonder what the just response is to all these innocent people dying at the hands of US drones strikes?

Wrong thread, no?

yes and no ... yes in that this thread ideally should be about the execution process ... no, in that people here believe that people who commit horrible crimes should suffer ... and i'm pretty sure those people would not support the inhumane suffering of an american army officer ...

I would!

There was some discussion about this (the botched death thingy)the other day on the radio and the guy suggested carbon monoxide, plain and simple.

It is recommended by the Hemlock Society to be the least painful and unpleasant do-it-yourself way to commit suicide where euthanasia isn't legal and you can't get your hands on drugs like morphine or pentobarbital (i.e. the old pipe from the muffler to your car window trick).

the muffler pipe to the widow is not a sure thing,I person I know tried it then when it didn't work he grabed his pistol.......BANG ! and done ! btw that smell never leaves the car.


Godfather.