Lead, Gunpowder and Brass...I don't think there is a shortage of those items and not near as costly either...Problem solved...
So let's do some public executions. Stonings as well. Hell lottery tickets to help participate. Pay per view.
Do we not see how ironic it is we shake our heads in disgust at what happens in fundamentalist Muslim countries but have no problem saying. "He'll let me pull the switch or just use firing squad".
Do we not realize that the rest of the civilized western world looks at us as we do at others.
I know we don't care what others think but in this case it's good to look at the US through others eyes.
We have to rise above our need for vengeance using barbaric means as this case clearly demonstrates. See how I tied it back to the topic.
I would say people need to rise above their need to rape and murder women and children.
The opponents of the DP almost always suggest that proponents are acting from emotion with vengeance in mind- that they need to be impartial. Well... what is impartial justice for such a horrific crime? What is a fair punishment for raping and murdering an infant like the idiot that was spared his execution following the debacle? If you are telling me that a fair punishment is, say, 30 years behind bars... I would say to you that it is not I that is being impartial.
It's not 'playing God' deciding who lives and who dies... it's dealing with what's been shoved down our throats in a manner befitting of the crime. These executions- even this horrific one- are infinitely more merciful than the crimes these people have committed: they are not gagged, raped, and tortured to death.
Okay Thirty was trying to keep this related to thread topic but........
We can't control criminals actions but we can control ours. Society should rise above killing. Killing is wrong. Yeah we're going round and round.
Injecting person with poison/killing has no benefits but deteriorating our society. See got thread topic in again.
Injecting people with poison has the benefit of removing dangerous people from our midst. Some would argue that it actually improves our society.
There... two sides presented.
Back to the thread.
Two sides presented huh? Think you were just shooting for the last word.
)
No... I just can't shut up sometimes.
Wolf mentioned he would like to see charges pressed over this incident. Is there a case that could be made against the people who pressed forward without allowing the process to completely take place prior to the execution?
Yeah well think a lot of us on the board are the same in not knowing when to shut up. But that's what keeps the train moving and hell it's fun. Or should be.
As to charges, if it can be proven there was negligence why not. As to punishment, tough one.
If it can be proven there was negligence there should be punishment, but I think that punishment would likely be termination of employment rather than criminal prosecution. That is of course assuming this was a malfunction of the tools provided for the execution and not a deliberate attempt to make this man suffer. If it is proven to be the latter there should be a criminal prosecution.
Lead, Gunpowder and Brass...I don't think there is a shortage of those items and not near as costly either...Problem solved...
So let's do some public executions. Stonings as well. Hell lottery tickets to help participate. Pay per view.
Do we not see how ironic it is we shake our heads in disgust at what happens in fundamentalist Muslim countries but have no problem saying. "He'll let me pull the switch or just use firing squad".
Do we not realize that the rest of the civilized western world looks at us as we do at others.
I know we don't care what others think but in this case it's good to look at the US through others eyes.
We have to rise above our need for vengeance using barbaric means as this case clearly demonstrates. See how I tied it back to the topic.
I would say people need to rise above their need to rape and murder women and children.
The opponents of the DP almost always suggest that proponents are acting from emotion with vengeance in mind- that they need to be impartial. Well... what is impartial justice for such a horrific crime? What is a fair punishment for raping and murdering an infant like the idiot that was spared his execution following the debacle? If you are telling me that a fair punishment is, say, 30 years behind bars... I would say to you that it is not I that is being impartial.
It's not 'playing God' deciding who lives and who dies... it's dealing with what's been shoved down our throats in a manner befitting of the crime. These executions- even this horrific one- are infinitely more merciful than the crimes these people have committed: they are not gagged, raped, and tortured to death.
Okay Thirty was trying to keep this related to thread topic but........
We can't control criminals actions but we can control ours. Society should rise above killing. Killing is wrong. Yeah we're going round and round.
Injecting person with poison/killing has no benefits but deteriorating our society. See got thread topic in again.
Injecting people with poison has the benefit of removing dangerous people from our midst. Some would argue that it actually improves our society.
There... two sides presented.
Back to the thread.
Two sides presented huh? Think you were just shooting for the last word.
)
No... I just can't shut up sometimes.
Wolf mentioned he would like to see charges pressed over this incident. Is there a case that could be made against the people who pressed forward without allowing the process to completely take place prior to the execution?
Yeah well think a lot of us on the board are the same in not knowing when to shut up. But that's what keeps the train moving and hell it's fun. Or should be.
As to charges, if it can be proven there was negligence why not. As to punishment, tough one.
If it can be proven there was negligence there should be punishment, but I think that punishment would likely be termination of employment rather than criminal prosecution. That is of course assuming this was a malfunction of the tools provided for the execution and not a deliberate attempt to make this man suffer. If it is proven to be the latter there should be a criminal prosecution.
I agree with this.
The job of administering death was done, but the process was not followed with regards to certifying the chemicals (I recall they 'rushed' to a satisfactory conclusion prior to administering the lethal injection). In which case, the 'employee(s)' that pushed things forward could certainly be held accountable. As well... as you say... if it can be proven there was a malicious and deviated scheme to have things play out as they did... then that is criminal behaviour.
As is being reported now, his vein collapsed and this was not seen til right before the curtains closed.
.Fucked up human being. Not sorry he got the sentence he did, but its a shame he experienced what he did. Perhaps had he confessed or showed soem measure of remorse he might have received a different sentence?
Sentence carried out successfully .Death was handed down and death is what he got .However there should be a set of "what if this, then we do this" procedures in place with greater attention to detail.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Europe taught America how to end the death penalty. Now maybe it finally will
When it comes to capital punishment, the US today is like South Africa in the 80s. But an EU boycott has opened up a final frontier
James Gibson and Corinna Barrett Lain theguardian.com, Monday 5 May 2014 10.45 BST
Coverage of America's latest lethal injection debacle has played and replayed the ugly details of last Tuesday's botched execution in Oklahoma, once again throwing the nation's death penalty problems into the international spotlight. Experimental drug combinations. Secret procedures. Proposals for the return of the electric chair and firing squads. Every one of those problems, it should be noted, can be traced back to European activism.
For decades, Europe has done all it could to bring its anti-death penalty stance to the United States. We've seen international covenants and conventions, refusals to expedite in capital cases, good old-fashioned diplomacy, even EU briefs to the US supreme court. Nothing has worked. Until now. Over the last several years, Europe has found a way to export its rejection of capital punishment ... by refusing to export lethal injection drugs to the United States.
In the private sector, European pharmaceutical companies caught wind of the increasing reality that their products were being diverted to execution chambers, so they either imposed end-user agreements on buyers or stopped producing the drugs altogether. In the public sector, Britain responded by imposing export controls on drugs used for lethal injection and joined a chorus of countries calling for the European Commission to do the same, which it did.
When it comes to the death penalty, the United States today is what South Africa was in the 1980s. It is the subject of a targeted boycott of goods based on behavior that the rest of the world views as immoral. That's a mighty strange place to be for the self-declared leader of the free world.
You might ask: so what? The US is still executing, and Europe's boycott hasn't slowed down executions in states like Texas, where the death penalty is as much a part of life as grits are for breakfast in the American South. If anything, the dearth of lethal injection drugs has provided an excuse for blood-thirsty states to speed up executions, rather than slow them down.
That much is true, but Europe's boycott is the reason states are experimenting with new lethal injection drug protocols. It's the reason they are fighting to protect the secrecy of their sources. It's the reason they are considering far more controversial methods of execution.
Those developments may seem desperate and dangerous, but they are having second-order effects that have opened up a new legal frontier: Americans are a litigious bunch, and new avenues of attack on experimental drug cocktails and the shroud of secrecy surrounding their use could bog down the administration of the death penalty for years.
And this level of public attention to capital punishment has not been seen in decades. Every new debacle creates space in the public discourse to talk about its problems. Grossly inadequate counsel. Racial discrimination. Geographic arbitrariness. Excessive cost. Exonerations of death row inmates – over 140 of them so far.
A final effect of Europe's activism may be in US legal norms. The American jurisprudence of death pins constitutional protection on "evolving standards of decency" and relies on what the states are doing as primary evidence of what those standards of decency are. The more states walk away from the death penalty, the more likely the US supreme court will at some point turn the lights out on America's machinery of death.
Historically, the death penalty has been the epitome of American exceptionalism and isolationism. In the wake of Europe's lethal injection drug boycott, America can take steps to maintain its exceptionalism. It can double-down on death, no matter what the EU does. If it cannot inject inmates, it can hang them. Or shoot them. Or electrocute or gas them.
But the same is not true for American isolationism on the death penalty. That is gone for good.
A perfect storm is now swirling around capital punishment in America, and it is a storm that Europe has had a strong hand in creating. Granted, it likely won't affect states where the death penalty is deeply entrenched. But six US states have abolished the death penalty in the last seven years, and its legitimacy in the United States is evaporating with every execution gone horribly wrong. For other governors leaning toward a humane solution to this increasingly inhumane problem, last Tuesday night's disaster in Oklahoma may just be enough bad publicity to tip the scales. As Brendan Behan said, there's no such thing as bad publicity – except your own obituary.
93: Slane
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
The death penalty doesn't need to be abolished. It only needs to be used less often and more appropriately.
Also, I wouldn't put too much hope in this iteration of the Supreme Court abolishing anything that is popular in red state America. At some point in the future perhaps but it seems to be an unlikely scenario right now.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
i wonder what the just response is to all these innocent people dying at the hands of US drones strikes?
Wrong thread, no?
yes and no ... yes in that this thread ideally should be about the execution process ... no, in that people here believe that people who commit horrible crimes should suffer ... and i'm pretty sure those people would not support the inhumane suffering of an american army officer ...
I would!
There was some discussion about this (the botched death thingy)the other day on the radio and the guy suggested carbon monoxide, plain and simple.
The poison from the poison stream caught up to you ELEVEN years ago and you floated out of here. Sept. 14, 08
i wonder what the just response is to all these innocent people dying at the hands of US drones strikes?
Wrong thread, no?
yes and no ... yes in that this thread ideally should be about the execution process ... no, in that people here believe that people who commit horrible crimes should suffer ... and i'm pretty sure those people would not support the inhumane suffering of an american army officer ...
I would!
There was some discussion about this (the botched death thingy)the other day on the radio and the guy suggested carbon monoxide, plain and simple.
It is recommended by the Hemlock Society to be the least painful and unpleasant do-it-yourself way to commit suicide where euthanasia isn't legal and you can't get your hands on drugs like morphine or pentobarbital (i.e. the old pipe from the muffler to your car window trick).
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
i wonder what the just response is to all these innocent people dying at the hands of US drones strikes?
Wrong thread, no?
yes and no ... yes in that this thread ideally should be about the execution process ... no, in that people here believe that people who commit horrible crimes should suffer ... and i'm pretty sure those people would not support the inhumane suffering of an american army officer ...
I would!
There was some discussion about this (the botched death thingy)the other day on the radio and the guy suggested carbon monoxide, plain and simple.
It is recommended by the Hemlock Society to be the least painful and unpleasant do-it-yourself way to commit suicide where euthanasia isn't legal and you can't get your hands on drugs like morphine or pentobarbital (i.e. the old pipe from the muffler to your car window trick).
the muffler pipe to the widow is not a sure thing,I person I know tried it then when it didn't work he grabed his pistol.......BANG ! and done ! btw that smell never leaves the car.
The botched execution isn't really much of an argument against the death penalty. The fact that it's wrong to kill people - regardless of how you do it - is the argument.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
The botched execution isn't really much of an argument against the death penalty. The fact that it's wrong to kill people - regardless of how you do it - is the argument.
Countries 2013 executions.. #1 China 778 #2 Iran with at least 369 put to death by the state #3 Iraq 169 #4 Saudi Arabia 79 #5 United States 39
.........crap ! and the way we debate executions in the US you'd think we were the worst offenders, 778 ??? 369 ?? wow ! over 2 per day in china and more than one per day on the avg. in iran ?...and 1 every other day in iraq .
Countries 2013 executions.. #1 China 778 #2 Iran with at least 369 put to death by the state #3 Iraq 169 #4 Saudi Arabia 79 #5 United States 39
.........crap ! and the way we debate executions in the US you'd think we were the worst offenders, 778 ??? 369 ?? wow ! over 2 per day in china and more than one per day on the avg. in iran ?...and 1 every other day in iraq .
Godfather.
Yeah, 39 people murdered - peanuts!
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Countries 2013 executions.. #1 China 778 #2 Iran with at least 369 put to death by the state #3 Iraq 169 #4 Saudi Arabia 79 #5 United States 39
The United States had 14,827 people murdered in 2012.
In 1993, the US saw 24,526 people murdered.
Given the amount of time that transpires before one is finally executed... the people executed in 2013 were closer to the 1993 numbers than the 2012 numbers.
Doing some crude calculations... if we split the difference between the two totals to a nice, round number of 20,000... the DP is applied in roughly 0.004 percent of the murder cases.
It is an interesting topic that I constantly change. And usually when a kid gets taken, raped, and killed and it's 100% certain of who did it that I tend to go back to the "Pro" side.
The reality for me is I've lost steam on this topic though. So, I don;t really care if we have it or not in the US. I don't care enough to do anything to stop it, because ultimately I still see times when it seems appropriate to me. But also, I can understand the "against" side and they make some compelling arguments. And I realize, it really isn't worth fighting for the right to kill people. So, I'm not going to personally do anything to try and stop it (which i know means I'm part of the problem to many people here) but I'm done trying to defend it. And I do see value in ending it as a message to the rest of the world.
It is an interesting topic that I constantly change. And usually when a kid gets taken, raped, and killed and it's 100% certain of who did it that I tend to go back to the "Pro" side.
The reality for me is I've lost steam on this topic though. So, I don;t really care if we have it or not in the US. I don't care enough to do anything to stop it, because ultimately I still see times when it seems appropriate to me. But also, I can understand the "against" side and they make some compelling arguments. And I realize, it really isn't worth fighting for the right to kill people. So, I'm not going to personally do anything to try and stop it (which i know means I'm part of the problem to many people here) but I'm done trying to defend it. And I do see value in ending it as a message to the rest of the world.
Been away for a while? Welcome back.
Yeah I'd like to dip murderers of children in fire ant mounds till they pass out. Revive, then do it again but realize it's not good for society only good for my craving for revenge.
It is an interesting topic that I constantly change. And usually when a kid gets taken, raped, and killed and it's 100% certain of who did it that I tend to go back to the "Pro" side.
The reality for me is I've lost steam on this topic though. So, I don;t really care if we have it or not in the US. I don't care enough to do anything to stop it, because ultimately I still see times when it seems appropriate to me. But also, I can understand the "against" side and they make some compelling arguments. And I realize, it really isn't worth fighting for the right to kill people. So, I'm not going to personally do anything to try and stop it (which i know means I'm part of the problem to many people here) but I'm done trying to defend it. And I do see value in ending it as a message to the rest of the world.
Been away for a while? Welcome back.
Yeah I'd like to dip murderers of children in fire ant mounds till they pass out. Revive, then do it again but realize it's not good for society only good for my craving for revenge.
1 out of 2 ain't bad!
)
It must be a geographical thing. I am surrounded by good, intelligent friends that do not belong to this site. Whenever this topic arises, almost all of them support the DP in 'extreme' cases. We've grown weary of reading depressing cases where some awful excuse for a human being has mutilated children.
Say the words 'Clifford Olson' in British Columbia and watch people's fists clench in anger. Not just anger for his obscenity... but anger over our unbelievably pathetic judicial system that monumentally failed to take into account the severity and monstrosity of his evil doings. He needed to die and if God himself floated down from the clouds and told me different... I'd tell him he was out of his mind. Justice was not served in this horrific case. Period.
We lean way too far towards the guilty's rights. For example, knowing full well the general population would have torn his limbs off... we placed Olson in an isolated cell (trust me when I say there was much more we did as well). Then we paid him money for him to tell us where he buried the dismembered children (the infamous 'cash for bodies' deal). Why didn't we say, "30 years in prison. Now off you go!" Then... Olson, feeling sorry for himself knowing what his fate was likely going to be and scurrying to save himself... could have cried and pleaded, "Wait. Wait. Please don't. I'll tell you where my victims lie. Just protect me! Sniffle sniffle." But... no... we couldn't do that because many of the people that argue against the DP also argue that not only do we need to spare such assholes their lives... we need to afford levels of comfort as well.
Most in my circle just don't see the value in such a person... we have absolutely zero tolerance for his existence... we grow frustrated over the portion of society that serves such foul beasts... we feel awful for the victims and their survivors... and we don't see how executing him hurts society.
In fact, with regards to the last point, we see the opposite as true: Olson's lingering existence kept many people angered and frustrated throughout his entire and well-publicized prison sentence where he continued to torment surviving family members and society with his cruel depravity behind bars.
A collective sigh of joy exhaled when Olson, after our most generous cancer treatments, died from natural causes.
Countries 2013 executions.. #1 China 778 #2 Iran with at least 369 put to death by the state #3 Iraq 169 #4 Saudi Arabia 79 #5 United States 39
The United States had 14,827 people murdered in 2012.
In 1993, the US saw 24,526 people murdered.
Given the amount of time that transpires before one is finally executed... the people executed in 2013 were closer to the 1993 numbers than the 2012 numbers.
Doing some crude calculations... if we split the difference between the two totals to a nice, round number of 20,000... the DP is applied in roughly 0.004 percent of the murder cases.
How many the above numbers are due to gun violence... now compare those numbers to those other countries..
"The heart and mind are the true lens of the camera." - Yusuf Karsh
TB. Don't get your first line " 1 out of 2 ain't bad."
As to the rest well, we've discussed our respective positions on this to death. So till one day I again have the pleasure of going back to the great country of Canada (hopefully to see another pj show) and have a beer with you so I can directly try to influence you to come to the correct side, don't think we'll get anywhere.
TB. Don't get your first line " 1 out of 2 ain't bad."
As to the rest well, we've discussed our respective positions on this to death. So till one day I again have the pleasure of going back to the great country of Canada (hopefully to see another pj show) and have a beer with you so I can directly try to influence you to come to the correct side, don't think we'll get anywhere.
You had said: it's not good for society only good for my craving for revenge.
"1 out of 2 ain't bad"... meaning: it's at least good for 1 thing! (said in jest... and obviously not well)
I think we should have that beer, but instead... spend our time drinking it discussing the merits of Vs. and why it is a superior album to any other in the PJ catalogue.
Countries 2013 executions.. #1 China 778 #2 Iran with at least 369 put to death by the state #3 Iraq 169 #4 Saudi Arabia 79 #5 United States 39
The United States had 14,827 people murdered in 2012.
In 1993, the US saw 24,526 people murdered.
Given the amount of time that transpires before one is finally executed... the people executed in 2013 were closer to the 1993 numbers than the 2012 numbers.
Doing some crude calculations... if we split the difference between the two totals to a nice, round number of 20,000... the DP is applied in roughly 0.004 percent of the murder cases.
How many the above numbers are due to gun violence... now compare those numbers to those other countries..
The actual numbers are staggering, but rates tell the most accurate story.
Homicide by firearm rate (2 very comparable countries):
USA 2.97 per 100,000 people (9,146 homicides by firearm in total). Canada 0.51 per 100,000 people (173 homicides by firearm in total).
TB. Don't get your first line " 1 out of 2 ain't bad."
As to the rest well, we've discussed our respective positions on this to death. So till one day I again have the pleasure of going back to the great country of Canada (hopefully to see another pj show) and have a beer with you so I can directly try to influence you to come to the correct side, don't think we'll get anywhere.
You had said: it's not good for society only good for my craving for revenge.
"1 out of 2 ain't bad"... meaning: it's at least good for 1 thing! (said in jest... and obviously not well)
I think we should have that beer, but instead... spend our time drinking it discussing the merits of Vs. and why it is a superior album to any other in the PJ catalogue.
Ha okay and agree on discussing pj instead. Now on vs being the best well..........
Richard Glossip is scheduled to be executed by OK on Jan 29. He did not commit the murder. He had no prior run-ins with with law. The man who did commit the murder initially claimed he acted alone. Justin Sneed was 20 at the time of the murder and had a juvenile record for burglary, and bomb threats and had been expelled from school for fighting teachers and students. After being offered a plea deal, he changed his confession to say that Richard Glossip offered him money to kill the owner of the hotel where they both worked. Sneed, who beat the hotel owner with a baseball bat will now be fed and housed on the state of OK's dime for the rest of his life. Sister Helen Prejean is serving as Richard Glossip's spiritual advisor. okcfox.com/story/27886529/writer-of-dead-man-walking-joins-oklahoma-death-row-inmates-fight-for-clemency
And the sun it may be shining . . . but there's an ocean in my eyes
so he helped Sneed after the murder. in what way? helped him conceal it? lied? buried the body? why would he do such a thing if he had nothing to do with it? not saying he did it, just wondering what would compel someone to cover up a murder they had no stake in. if a co worker of mine killed someone, I wouldn't help them cover it up. sounds fishy at best.
At 3 in the morning, Justin woke Richard to say that some drunks had broken a window. Richard told him to cover it with something and he'd take care of it in the morning. As Justin turned to leave he said "oh yeah, I just killed Barry." Richard's response was essentially yeah, right. And he went back to sleep. His disbelief continued through much of the next day, until it became clear Barry was missing. Once he realized Justin had told him the truth, he was scared. He was responsible for the motel, and had hired Sneed to work there. Richard asked his girlfriend if he should say anything. She said no, that he should stay out of it. Richard admits he was stupid. But scared and stupid does not deserve a death penalty. And after 17 years in prison he's more than paid for that crime.
Richard was offered a plea bargain before the second trial, life in prison with the possibility of parole in 20 years in exchange for a plea of guilty to second degree murder. He turned it down.
Richard responds: "I was being asked to plead guilty to a crime I didn't do." He knew he was taking a risk, but was convinced that with a 'real' trial he would not be convicted. Looking back he probably made the wrong choice. But, is that where we are as a society? That execution is a 'roll of the dice'? I keep telling Richard that he somehow has won the reverse-lottery.
I am not saying that I think he is the "brightest bulb in the box", but Sneed's first confession stated that he acted alone. He only implicated Glossip after he was offered a plea of life without parole instead of death. Sneed knew the system. Glossip was a good ole boy without a clue. Call me naive, but I kind of trust the nun's gut instinct. And I certainly have more than a reasonable doubt. I am not a supporter of the death penalty, but if we allow the state to execute innocent people are we not murderers ourselves?
And the sun it may be shining . . . but there's an ocean in my eyes
Comments
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
The job of administering death was done, but the process was not followed with regards to certifying the chemicals (I recall they 'rushed' to a satisfactory conclusion prior to administering the lethal injection). In which case, the 'employee(s)' that pushed things forward could certainly be held accountable. As well... as you say... if it can be proven there was a malicious and deviated scheme to have things play out as they did... then that is criminal behaviour.
.Fucked up human being. Not sorry he got the sentence he did, but its a shame he experienced what he did. Perhaps had he confessed or showed soem measure of remorse he might have received a different sentence?
Sentence carried out successfully .Death was handed down and death is what he got .However there should be a set of "what if this, then we do this" procedures in place with greater attention to detail.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Europe taught America how to end the death penalty. Now maybe it finally will
When it comes to capital punishment, the US today is like South Africa in the 80s. But an EU boycott has opened up a final frontier
James Gibson and Corinna Barrett Lain
theguardian.com, Monday 5 May 2014 10.45 BST
Coverage of America's latest lethal injection debacle has played and replayed the ugly details of last Tuesday's botched execution in Oklahoma, once again throwing the nation's death penalty problems into the international spotlight. Experimental drug combinations. Secret procedures. Proposals for the return of the electric chair and firing squads. Every one of those problems, it should be noted, can be traced back to European activism.
For decades, Europe has done all it could to bring its anti-death penalty stance to the United States. We've seen international covenants and conventions, refusals to expedite in capital cases, good old-fashioned diplomacy, even EU briefs to the US supreme court. Nothing has worked. Until now. Over the last several years, Europe has found a way to export its rejection of capital punishment ... by refusing to export lethal injection drugs to the United States.
In the private sector, European pharmaceutical companies caught wind of the increasing reality that their products were being diverted to execution chambers, so they either imposed end-user agreements on buyers or stopped producing the drugs altogether. In the public sector, Britain responded by imposing export controls on drugs used for lethal injection and joined a chorus of countries calling for the European Commission to do the same, which it did.
When it comes to the death penalty, the United States today is what South Africa was in the 1980s. It is the subject of a targeted boycott of goods based on behavior that the rest of the world views as immoral. That's a mighty strange place to be for the self-declared leader of the free world.
You might ask: so what? The US is still executing, and Europe's boycott hasn't slowed down executions in states like Texas, where the death penalty is as much a part of life as grits are for breakfast in the American South. If anything, the dearth of lethal injection drugs has provided an excuse for blood-thirsty states to speed up executions, rather than slow them down.
That much is true, but Europe's boycott is the reason states are experimenting with new lethal injection drug protocols. It's the reason they are fighting to protect the secrecy of their sources. It's the reason they are considering far more controversial methods of execution.
Those developments may seem desperate and dangerous, but they are having second-order effects that have opened up a new legal frontier: Americans are a litigious bunch, and new avenues of attack on experimental drug cocktails and the shroud of secrecy surrounding their use could bog down the administration of the death penalty for years.
And this level of public attention to capital punishment has not been seen in decades. Every new debacle creates space in the public discourse to talk about its problems. Grossly inadequate counsel. Racial discrimination. Geographic arbitrariness. Excessive cost. Exonerations of death row inmates – over 140 of them so far.
A final effect of Europe's activism may be in US legal norms. The American jurisprudence of death pins constitutional protection on "evolving standards of decency" and relies on what the states are doing as primary evidence of what those standards of decency are. The more states walk away from the death penalty, the more likely the US supreme court will at some point turn the lights out on America's machinery of death.
Historically, the death penalty has been the epitome of American exceptionalism and isolationism. In the wake of Europe's lethal injection drug boycott, America can take steps to maintain its exceptionalism. It can double-down on death, no matter what the EU does. If it cannot inject inmates, it can hang them. Or shoot them. Or electrocute or gas them.
But the same is not true for American isolationism on the death penalty. That is gone for good.
A perfect storm is now swirling around capital punishment in America, and it is a storm that Europe has had a strong hand in creating. Granted, it likely won't affect states where the death penalty is deeply entrenched. But six US states have abolished the death penalty in the last seven years, and its legitimacy in the United States is evaporating with every execution gone horribly wrong. For other governors leaning toward a humane solution to this increasingly inhumane problem, last Tuesday night's disaster in Oklahoma may just be enough bad publicity to tip the scales. As Brendan Behan said, there's no such thing as bad publicity – except your own obituary.
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
Also, I wouldn't put too much hope in this iteration of the Supreme Court abolishing anything that is popular in red state America. At some point in the future perhaps but it seems to be an unlikely scenario right now.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I would!
There was some discussion about this (the botched death thingy)the other day on the radio and the guy suggested carbon monoxide, plain and simple.
The poison from the poison stream caught up to you ELEVEN years ago and you floated out of here. Sept. 14, 08
Godfather.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
#1 China 778
#2 Iran with at least 369 put to death by the state
#3 Iraq 169
#4 Saudi Arabia 79
#5 United States 39
Godfather.
In 1993, the US saw 24,526 people murdered.
Given the amount of time that transpires before one is finally executed... the people executed in 2013 were closer to the 1993 numbers than the 2012 numbers.
Doing some crude calculations... if we split the difference between the two totals to a nice, round number of 20,000... the DP is applied in roughly 0.004 percent of the murder cases.
I used to want to fry em all but after some soul searching.....
The poison from the poison stream caught up to you ELEVEN years ago and you floated out of here. Sept. 14, 08
It is an interesting topic that I constantly change. And usually when a kid gets taken, raped, and killed and it's 100% certain of who did it that I tend to go back to the "Pro" side.
The reality for me is I've lost steam on this topic though. So, I don;t really care if we have it or not in the US. I don't care enough to do anything to stop it, because ultimately I still see times when it seems appropriate to me. But also, I can understand the "against" side and they make some compelling arguments. And I realize, it really isn't worth fighting for the right to kill people. So, I'm not going to personally do anything to try and stop it (which i know means I'm part of the problem to many people here) but I'm done trying to defend it. And I do see value in ending it as a message to the rest of the world.
Yeah I'd like to dip murderers of children in fire ant mounds till they pass out. Revive, then do it again but realize it's not good for society only good for my craving for revenge.
It must be a geographical thing. I am surrounded by good, intelligent friends that do not belong to this site. Whenever this topic arises, almost all of them support the DP in 'extreme' cases. We've grown weary of reading depressing cases where some awful excuse for a human being has mutilated children.
Say the words 'Clifford Olson' in British Columbia and watch people's fists clench in anger. Not just anger for his obscenity... but anger over our unbelievably pathetic judicial system that monumentally failed to take into account the severity and monstrosity of his evil doings. He needed to die and if God himself floated down from the clouds and told me different... I'd tell him he was out of his mind. Justice was not served in this horrific case. Period.
We lean way too far towards the guilty's rights. For example, knowing full well the general population would have torn his limbs off... we placed Olson in an isolated cell (trust me when I say there was much more we did as well). Then we paid him money for him to tell us where he buried the dismembered children (the infamous 'cash for bodies' deal). Why didn't we say, "30 years in prison. Now off you go!" Then... Olson, feeling sorry for himself knowing what his fate was likely going to be and scurrying to save himself... could have cried and pleaded, "Wait. Wait. Please don't. I'll tell you where my victims lie. Just protect me! Sniffle sniffle." But... no... we couldn't do that because many of the people that argue against the DP also argue that not only do we need to spare such assholes their lives... we need to afford levels of comfort as well.
Most in my circle just don't see the value in such a person... we have absolutely zero tolerance for his existence... we grow frustrated over the portion of society that serves such foul beasts... we feel awful for the victims and their survivors... and we don't see how executing him hurts society.
In fact, with regards to the last point, we see the opposite as true: Olson's lingering existence kept many people angered and frustrated throughout his entire and well-publicized prison sentence where he continued to torment surviving family members and society with his cruel depravity behind bars.
A collective sigh of joy exhaled when Olson, after our most generous cancer treatments, died from natural causes.
As to the rest well, we've discussed our respective positions on this to death. So till one day I again have the pleasure of going back to the great country of Canada (hopefully to see another pj show) and have a beer with you so I can directly try to influence you to come to the correct side, don't think we'll get anywhere.
"1 out of 2 ain't bad"... meaning: it's at least good for 1 thing! (said in jest... and obviously not well)
I think we should have that beer, but instead... spend our time drinking it discussing the merits of Vs. and why it is a superior album to any other in the PJ catalogue.
Homicide by firearm rate (2 very comparable countries):
USA 2.97 per 100,000 people (9,146 homicides by firearm in total).
Canada 0.51 per 100,000 people (173 homicides by firearm in total).
http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list
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