botched execution in oklahoma...

PJ_Soul

Godfather. said:

PJ_Soul I agree murder is unexcusable but in this case and others like it I have zero sympathy and even less thought on the matter I don't care if he clenched his teeth till they shattered and begged for death, maybe they should go back to the gallos and rope.

Godfather.

Yes, fine. I also said that I don't have any sympathy. Sympathy or the feelings of the dead guy has nothing to do with it.

chadwick

wouldn't that be a perfectly good waste of heroin? bullets, lots & lots of bullets. actually the current method works just dandy as this clown is not alive nor well.

PJ_Soul

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

I think it is absolutely DISGUSTING that the people trying to murder him are the same people who took him to the hospital to try and save him so that they can try and murder him again later. Talk about barbaric and fucking sick and twisted.

What this criminal did is totally irrelevant to this discussion IMHO. How I feel about that creep has no bearing for me. To be clear I feel no sympathy for him at all (but I do have plenty for his family). No matter how bad he or anyone else on death row is, nothing can justify a government murdering its citizens out of pure revenge. I can't believe people think that governments committing this act is anything other than fucking primitive and complete embarrassment for what people like to call a civilized society.

Well, yet ANOTHER reason to be against government sanctioned murder of its own citizens, as though I didn't have enough reasons already.

Don't yell too loudly from your soapbox. I'm glad your experiences have brought you to such a 'civilized' state of mind above all us primitive people... but if someone close to you got raped, shot, and buried alive amid their tormentors' laughter... something tells me you might be finding some reasons to support capital punishment.

Dude, don't act like a jerk. What's with the soapbox/yelling comment? You have problems with someone strongly expressing their views now?? And I didn't call you primitive. I called the practice of the government murdering citizens primitive. Huge difference. I wouldn't call some dad who went out and shot his daughter's rapist in the face primitive.

Something tells me that you don't know me at all, so don't presume how I'd feel if someone close to me was murdered. It's a stupid assumption anyway. Loads and loads of victims' family members have stated that the execution of the person who committed the crime did absolutely nothing for them or their recovery. Others have come out as strong opponents to the death penalty. Sorry, but you're the one who came off as high and mighty there with your assumptions.

I would NEVER support capital punishment. And FYI, I personally feel that death is the easy way out. If someone raped me or killed someone I loved I'd want him to spend many many years suffering in prison, not enter sweetly into death.
But the main point is that I wouldn't want to live under a government who murders people. Period. Luckily, I don't, and I'm glad.

Cosmo

My take on the Death Penalty is this...
I'm not so against the death of the guilty... it's the death of the innocent that bothers me.
I mean, how many stories have we read where someone is proven not guilty... years later... of a crime by something like DNA evidence or police misconduct? I do not trust that our courts systems are perfect and fool proof... that our police and prosecutors, judges and defense attorneys are infallible. This is especially true of some of our states.
...
I also think that prison is not a pleasant place. I know, i never want to find out. Losing my freedom to come and go as I please is not much of a life. Sure, I would still posses a life, but, to me, not a life worth living. I suppose, I value my freedom way more than i probably should.
...
And I do not know how I would react to the torture/murder of a loved one. I'm not going to say one way or another... simply because i do not know. I would HOPE to be more like Jesus and less like Christians and choose to forgive, rather than avenge. To me, letting go of the the person who has wronged me would allow me to move forward in life. But, as i said... I have never been place in that situation so I really have no idea how I would feel.

chadwick

i'd like to see a credible list of folks who were put to death & later proven innocent

PJ_Soul

chadwick said:

i'd like to see a credible list of folks who were put to death & later proven innocent

There are loads of cases where people who were put to death were found innocent. Just google it. Piles of credible sources (and many exonerations) about it.

PJ_Soul

Cosmo said:

My take on the Death Penalty is this...
I'm not so against the death of the guilty... it's the death of the innocent that bothers me.
I mean, how many stories have we read where someone is proven not guilty... years later... of a crime by something like DNA evidence or police misconduct? I do not trust that our courts systems are perfect and fool proof... that our police and prosecutors, judges and defense attorneys are infallible. This is especially true of some of our states.
...
I also think that prison is not a pleasant place. I know, i never want to find out. Losing my freedom to come and go as I please is not much of a life. Sure, I would still posses a life, but, to me, not a life worth living. I suppose, I value my freedom way more than i probably should.
...
And I do not know how I would react to the torture/murder of a loved one. I'm not going to say one way or another... simply because i do not know. I would HOPE to be more like Jesus and less like Christians and choose to forgive, rather than avenge. To me, letting go of the the person who has wronged me would allow me to move forward in life. But, as i said... I have never been place in that situation so I really have no idea how I would feel.

That is also my problem. Basically it's this:

When the justice system is 100% INFALLIBLE, then I might not mind so much. But of course, there is a never will be an infallible justice system. It is flawed and overtaxed and corrupt and always will be.

And that's a nice line about being like Jesus and less like Christians. No fucking doubt. I don't think that I could forgive someone like some are able to (I know that they are). But I am confident that I wouldn't lust for blood either. Violence begets violence - I don't want to be a part of that.

chadwick

just figured one of y'all kept the list in your nearby grasp

PJ_Soul

chadwick said:

just figured one of y'all kept the list in your nearby grasp

Lol. Maybe after I retire I'll compile one for you.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

I think it is absolutely DISGUSTING that the people trying to murder him are the same people who took him to the hospital to try and save him so that they can try and murder him again later. Talk about barbaric and fucking sick and twisted.

What this criminal did is totally irrelevant to this discussion IMHO. How I feel about that creep has no bearing for me. To be clear I feel no sympathy for him at all (but I do have plenty for his family). No matter how bad he or anyone else on death row is, nothing can justify a government murdering its citizens out of pure revenge. I can't believe people think that governments committing this act is anything other than fucking primitive and complete embarrassment for what people like to call a civilized society.

Well, yet ANOTHER reason to be against government sanctioned murder of its own citizens, as though I didn't have enough reasons already.

Don't yell too loudly from your soapbox. I'm glad your experiences have brought you to such a 'civilized' state of mind above all us primitive people... but if someone close to you got raped, shot, and buried alive amid their tormentors' laughter... something tells me you might be finding some reasons to support capital punishment.

Dude, don't act like a jerk. What's with the soapbox/yelling comment? You have problems with someone strongly expressing their views now?? And I didn't call you primitive. I called the practice of the government murdering citizens primitive. Huge difference. I wouldn't call some dad who went out and shot his daughter's rapist in the face primitive.

Something tells me that you don't know me at all, so don't presume how I'd feel if someone close to me was murdered. It's a stupid assumption anyway. Loads and loads of victims' family members have stated that the execution of the person who committed the crime did absolutely nothing for them or their recovery. Others have come out as strong opponents to the death penalty. Sorry, but you're the one who came off as high and mighty there with your assumptions.

I would NEVER support capital punishment. And FYI, I personally feel that death is the easy way out. If someone raped me or killed someone I loved I'd want him to spend many many years suffering in prison, not enter sweetly into death.
But the main point is that I wouldn't want to live under a government who murders people. Period. Luckily, I don't, and I'm glad.

Come on. You did speak strongly and there were several unflattering inferences that are easily made from what you wrote. Don't hide behind the I didn't call you stupid... I said what you did was stupid deflection tactic.

When you use words like 'murder' and 'fucking primitive' and 'revenge' and 'embarrassment' and make a reference to being 'uncivilized' to support your position... you probably should have known there would be some form of a challenge to those statements and I offered one.

And loads and loads of victims' family members may have, to some degree, forgiven the murderer of their loved ones... but get serious... this is the exception and hardly the norm.

When you say I personally feel that death is the easy way out. If someone raped me or killed someone I loved I'd want him to spend many many years suffering in prison, not enter sweetly into death... isn't this slightly contradictory to some of the statements you have offered about having a revenge mentality?

By the way... you are one of the few Canadians I know who feel our weak penal system is anything to feel great about. We most certainly do not have things figured out by any stretch of the imagination. I could point to countless failings, but I'm pretty sure you know of several yourself.

chadwick

PJ_Soul said:

chadwick said:

just figured one of y'all kept the list in your nearby grasp

Lol. Maybe after I retire I'll compile one for you.

unacceptable

Thirty Bills Unpaid

PJ_Soul said:

Cosmo said:

My take on the Death Penalty is this...
I'm not so against the death of the guilty... it's the death of the innocent that bothers me.
I mean, how many stories have we read where someone is proven not guilty... years later... of a crime by something like DNA evidence or police misconduct? I do not trust that our courts systems are perfect and fool proof... that our police and prosecutors, judges and defense attorneys are infallible. This is especially true of some of our states.
...
I also think that prison is not a pleasant place. I know, i never want to find out. Losing my freedom to come and go as I please is not much of a life. Sure, I would still posses a life, but, to me, not a life worth living. I suppose, I value my freedom way more than i probably should.
...
And I do not know how I would react to the torture/murder of a loved one. I'm not going to say one way or another... simply because i do not know. I would HOPE to be more like Jesus and less like Christians and choose to forgive, rather than avenge. To me, letting go of the the person who has wronged me would allow me to move forward in life. But, as i said... I have never been place in that situation so I really have no idea how I would feel.

That is also my problem. Basically it's this:

When the justice system is 100% INFALLIBLE, then I might not mind so much. But of course, there is a never will be an infallible justice system. It is flawed and overtaxed and corrupt and always will be.

And that's a nice line about being like Jesus and less like Christians. No fucking doubt. I don't think that I could forgive someone like some are able to (I know that they are). But I am confident that I wouldn't lust for blood either. Violence begets violence - I don't want to be a part of that.

See... now here's more of a 'middle way' approach to the topic. I appreciate the statement that you 'might' reconsider your stance if you could be assured the system was 100% infallible. I have said several times that the idea of an innocent man getting executed gives me pause for thought, so I am willing to open my mind to the possibility of my stance being poorly formulated. However, as fortunate or unfortunate as it might be... all I need to do is think of Clifford Olsen or Michael Rafferty and I'm back.

Cosmo

chadwick said:

i'd like to see a credible list of folks who were put to death & later proven innocent

...
My point is... i do not believe our courts system is perfect. If it were, then guilty people would not be set free, either... would they? But, we know that happens from time to time... that's what matters... not a numeric value on a score sheet. I do believe that we have one of the best justice systems on the planet... but, it is just not served up as fair as it proclaims to be. Justice... she may be blind, but the people her serve her are not.
To me... personally... I believe that prison life is a horrible life and that is a good place to keep the convicted. Keep them away from the rest of us.
...
That's all.

chadwick

understood, cosmo

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Cosmo said:

chadwick said:

i'd like to see a credible list of folks who were put to death & later proven innocent

...
My point is... i do not believe our courts system is perfect. If it were, then guilty people would not be set free, either... would they? But, we know that happens from time to time... that's what matters... not a numeric value on a score sheet. I do believe that we have one of the best justice systems on the planet... but, it is just not served up as fair as it proclaims to be. Justice... she may be blind, but the people her serve her are not.
To me... personally... I believe that prison life is a horrible life and that is a good place to keep the convicted. Keep them away from the rest of us.
...
That's all.

The problem I have with this is the fact that... it's not enough we tender mercy and imprison our most heinous murderers... we then offer them a quality of life and work to release them. They eat better than our minimum wage families, receive great health care, read books, play sports, work out, get married, play video games and all sorts of other fun activities until they finally get paroled or are released for a second chance at life... while their victims lie sewn back together in their coffins.

And I'm supposed to think this is justice?

oysterjar

Cosmo said:

chadwick said:

i'd like to see a credible list of folks who were put to death & later proven innocent

...

To me... personally... I believe that prison life is a horrible life and that is a good place to keep the convicted. Keep them away from the rest of us.
...
That's all.

The killing of the innocent is what gets me about capital punishment.

I know prison isn't club med buts its a lot easier then most military members have it. If they are to spend time it should be in a way that compensates the tax payers. Real fucking labor for the betterment of the world. Getting to bed for four hours with bloody blistered hands just to get up and reopen them the next day. None of this uncivilized hard labor B.S. Real Hard Work and too exhausted to run away kind of work.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

oysterjar said:

Cosmo said:

chadwick said:

i'd like to see a credible list of folks who were put to death & later proven innocent

...

To me... personally... I believe that prison life is a horrible life and that is a good place to keep the convicted. Keep them away from the rest of us.
...
That's all.

The killing of the innocent is what gets me about capital punishment.

I know prison isn't club med buts its a lot easier then most military members have it. If they are to spend time it should be in a way that compensates the tax payers. Real fucking labor for the betterment of the world. Getting to bed for four hours with bloody blistered hands just to get up and reopen them the next day. None of this uncivilized hard labor B.S. Real Hard Work and too exhausted to run away kind of work.

I could live with this... and 'life in prison' meant 'life in prison'.

Cosmo

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

The problem I have with this is the fact that... it's not enough we tender mercy and imprison our most heinous murderers... we then offer them a quality of life and work to release them. They eat better than our minimum wage families, receive great health care, read books, play sports, work out, get married, play video games and all sorts of other fun activities until they finally get paroled or are released for a second chance at life... while their victims lie sewn back together in their coffins.

And I'm supposed to think this is justice?

...
I believe the 20 year old that is serving 25 years because back in the 'Just Say No' years he was caught drivng a Buick Regal with 2 pound of pot in his trunk should be rehabilitated (especially now, because pot is legal) and set free after doing his time... but, NOT the person who shoots a woman in the eye and buries her in the marshlands while she is still taking breaths. I would rather see the latter spend the rest of his life in a maximum security facility... where we keep only the most dangerous people our society has produced.
I believe in Life Sentences for those convicted of the worst crimes. Meaning, you are in a prison, like Pelican Bay, under the supervision of prison guards for the rest of your life. You know you are going to die in prison. You are placed in solitary confinement, for your own good because your next door cell mate is a cannibal with swastikas tattooed on his face and hates you... well, just because he hates you. You don't want to play sport in there because the only game they like to play is 'Prison Hand Ball'... and i don't think you'll like it very much. You are not trusted with eating utincils, so you enjoy your nightly meal... Oh, look... Prison Loaf... again. Just like last night and the night before and the night before that, et al. That is your life... Prison Loaf and your neighbor constantly telling you he wants to kill you because he hates you (probably because you won't play Prison Hand Ball with him)... until you grow old and die.
...
I don't place the kid that gets popped for selling pot in Alabama with the guy who kills the pizza delivery guy and stores him in his freezer in the same boat. They are 2 completly different people who deserve two completely different levels of punishment.
I see that... as justice.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Cosmo said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

The problem I have with this is the fact that... it's not enough we tender mercy and imprison our most heinous murderers... we then offer them a quality of life and work to release them. They eat better than our minimum wage families, receive great health care, read books, play sports, work out, get married, play video games and all sorts of other fun activities until they finally get paroled or are released for a second chance at life... while their victims lie sewn back together in their coffins.

And I'm supposed to think this is justice?

...
I believe the 20 year old that is serving 25 years because back in the 'Just Say No' years he was caught drivng a Buick Regal with 2 pound of pot in his trunk should be rehabilitated (especially now, because pot is legal) and set free after doing his time... but, NOT the person who shoots a woman in the eye and buries her in the marshlands while she is still taking breaths. I would rather see the latter spend the rest of his life in a maximum security facility... where we keep only the most dangerous people our society has produced.
I believe in Life Sentences for those convicted of the worst crimes. Meaning, you are in a prison, like Pelican Bay, under the supervision of prison guards for the rest of your life. You know you are going to die in prison. You are placed in solitary confinement, for your own good because your next door cell mate is a cannibal with swastikas tattooed on his face and hates you... well, just because he hates you. You don't want to play sport in there because the only game they like to play is 'Prison Hand Ball'... and i don't think you'll like it very much. You are not trusted with eating utincils, so you enjoy your nightly meal... Oh, look... Prison Loaf... again. Just like last night and the night before and the night before that, et al. That is your life... Prison Loaf and your neighbor constantly telling you he wants to kill you because he hates you (probably because you won't play Prison Hand Ball with him)... until you grow old and die.
...
I don't place the kid that gets popped for selling pot in Alabama with the guy who kills the pizza delivery guy and stores him in his freezer in the same boat. They are 2 completly different people who deserve two completely different levels of punishment.
I see that... as justice.

I agree that a petty criminal should not be spending time alongside a murderer. I also agree that a petty criminal's time should be much more comfortable and purposeful than a murderer's.

By the way... thanks for the creative ways you express yourself.

oysterjar

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

oysterjar said:

Cosmo said:

chadwick said:

i'd like to see a credible list of folks who were put to death & later proven innocent

...

To me... personally... I believe that prison life is a horrible life and that is a good place to keep the convicted. Keep them away from the rest of us.
...
That's all.

The killing of the innocent is what gets me about capital punishment.

I know prison isn't club med buts its a lot easier then most military members have it. If they are to spend time it should be in a way that compensates the tax payers. Real fucking labor for the betterment of the world. Getting to bed for four hours with bloody blistered hands just to get up and reopen them the next day. None of this uncivilized hard labor B.S. Real Hard Work and too exhausted to run away kind of work.

I could live with this... and 'life in prison' meant 'life in prison'.

A prison doesn't have to have walls and iron bars on the windows. Id like to see them get creative. If these people are locked up for life then there is no need in rehabilitating them. Have them dig for gold with a spoon to ease the deficit. Till and plant crops by hand for food for those in need. Pick up garbage, Build parks or stamp plates, build furniture for the public schools. Sweat shop type environments.