botched execution in oklahoma...

know1

The botched execution isn't really much of an argument against the death penalty. The fact that it's wrong to kill people - regardless of how you do it - is the argument.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

know1 said:

The botched execution isn't really much of an argument against the death penalty. The fact that it's wrong to kill people - regardless of how you do it - is the argument.

Yes.

myoung321

Countries 2013 executions..
#1 China 778
#2 Iran with at least 369 put to death by the state
#3 Iraq 169
#4 Saudi Arabia 79
#5 United States 39

Godfather.

myoung321 said:

Countries 2013 executions..
#1 China 778
#2 Iran with at least 369 put to death by the state
#3 Iraq 169
#4 Saudi Arabia 79
#5 United States 39

.........crap ! and the way we debate executions in the US you'd think we were the worst offenders, 778 ??? 369 ?? wow ! over 2 per day in china and more than one per day on the avg. in iran ?...and 1 every other day in iraq .

Godfather.

PJ_Soul

Godfather. said:

myoung321 said:

Countries 2013 executions..
#1 China 778
#2 Iran with at least 369 put to death by the state
#3 Iraq 169
#4 Saudi Arabia 79
#5 United States 39

.........crap ! and the way we debate executions in the US you'd think we were the worst offenders, 778 ??? 369 ?? wow ! over 2 per day in china and more than one per day on the avg. in iran ?...and 1 every other day in iraq .

Godfather.

Yeah, 39 people murdered - peanuts!

Thirty Bills Unpaid

myoung321 said:

Countries 2013 executions..
#1 China 778
#2 Iran with at least 369 put to death by the state
#3 Iraq 169
#4 Saudi Arabia 79
#5 United States 39

The United States had 14,827 people murdered in 2012.

In 1993, the US saw 24,526 people murdered.

Given the amount of time that transpires before one is finally executed... the people executed in 2013 were closer to the 1993 numbers than the 2012 numbers.

Doing some crude calculations... if we split the difference between the two totals to a nice, round number of 20,000... the DP is applied in roughly 0.004 percent of the murder cases.

callen

Thirty. Even one is too many. Society can not condone justified killing. Come on I know you want to come to the other side. I know your tempted.

I used to want to fry em all but after some soul searching.....

even flow - question mark

callen said:

Thirty. Even one is too many. Society can not condone justified killing. Come on I know you want to come to the other side. I know your tempted.

I used to want to fry em all but after some soul searching.....

PJ Soul searching?

cincybearcat

Ah, good old Death Penalty threads.

It is an interesting topic that I constantly change. And usually when a kid gets taken, raped, and killed and it's 100% certain of who did it that I tend to go back to the "Pro" side.

The reality for me is I've lost steam on this topic though. So, I don;t really care if we have it or not in the US. I don't care enough to do anything to stop it, because ultimately I still see times when it seems appropriate to me. But also, I can understand the "against" side and they make some compelling arguments. And I realize, it really isn't worth fighting for the right to kill people. So, I'm not going to personally do anything to try and stop it (which i know means I'm part of the problem to many people here) but I'm done trying to defend it. And I do see value in ending it as a message to the rest of the world.

callen

cincybearcat said:

Ah, good old Death Penalty threads.

It is an interesting topic that I constantly change. And usually when a kid gets taken, raped, and killed and it's 100% certain of who did it that I tend to go back to the "Pro" side.

The reality for me is I've lost steam on this topic though. So, I don;t really care if we have it or not in the US. I don't care enough to do anything to stop it, because ultimately I still see times when it seems appropriate to me. But also, I can understand the "against" side and they make some compelling arguments. And I realize, it really isn't worth fighting for the right to kill people. So, I'm not going to personally do anything to try and stop it (which i know means I'm part of the problem to many people here) but I'm done trying to defend it. And I do see value in ending it as a message to the rest of the world.

Been away for a while? Welcome back.

Yeah I'd like to dip murderers of children in fire ant mounds till they pass out. Revive, then do it again but realize it's not good for society only good for my craving for revenge.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

callen said:

cincybearcat said:

Ah, good old Death Penalty threads.

It is an interesting topic that I constantly change. And usually when a kid gets taken, raped, and killed and it's 100% certain of who did it that I tend to go back to the "Pro" side.

The reality for me is I've lost steam on this topic though. So, I don;t really care if we have it or not in the US. I don't care enough to do anything to stop it, because ultimately I still see times when it seems appropriate to me. But also, I can understand the "against" side and they make some compelling arguments. And I realize, it really isn't worth fighting for the right to kill people. So, I'm not going to personally do anything to try and stop it (which i know means I'm part of the problem to many people here) but I'm done trying to defend it. And I do see value in ending it as a message to the rest of the world.

Been away for a while? Welcome back.

Yeah I'd like to dip murderers of children in fire ant mounds till they pass out. Revive, then do it again but realize it's not good for society only good for my craving for revenge.

1 out of 2 ain't bad!


)

It must be a geographical thing. I am surrounded by good, intelligent friends that do not belong to this site. Whenever this topic arises, almost all of them support the DP in 'extreme' cases. We've grown weary of reading depressing cases where some awful excuse for a human being has mutilated children.

Say the words 'Clifford Olson' in British Columbia and watch people's fists clench in anger. Not just anger for his obscenity... but anger over our unbelievably pathetic judicial system that monumentally failed to take into account the severity and monstrosity of his evil doings. He needed to die and if God himself floated down from the clouds and told me different... I'd tell him he was out of his mind. Justice was not served in this horrific case. Period.

We lean way too far towards the guilty's rights. For example, knowing full well the general population would have torn his limbs off... we placed Olson in an isolated cell (trust me when I say there was much more we did as well). Then we paid him money for him to tell us where he buried the dismembered children (the infamous 'cash for bodies' deal). Why didn't we say, "30 years in prison. Now off you go!" Then... Olson, feeling sorry for himself knowing what his fate was likely going to be and scurrying to save himself... could have cried and pleaded, "Wait. Wait. Please don't. I'll tell you where my victims lie. Just protect me! Sniffle sniffle." But... no... we couldn't do that because many of the people that argue against the DP also argue that not only do we need to spare such assholes their lives... we need to afford levels of comfort as well.

Most in my circle just don't see the value in such a person... we have absolutely zero tolerance for his existence... we grow frustrated over the portion of society that serves such foul beasts... we feel awful for the victims and their survivors... and we don't see how executing him hurts society.

In fact, with regards to the last point, we see the opposite as true: Olson's lingering existence kept many people angered and frustrated throughout his entire and well-publicized prison sentence where he continued to torment surviving family members and society with his cruel depravity behind bars.

A collective sigh of joy exhaled when Olson, after our most generous cancer treatments, died from natural causes.

myoung321

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

myoung321 said:

Countries 2013 executions..
#1 China 778
#2 Iran with at least 369 put to death by the state
#3 Iraq 169
#4 Saudi Arabia 79
#5 United States 39

The United States had 14,827 people murdered in 2012.

In 1993, the US saw 24,526 people murdered.

Given the amount of time that transpires before one is finally executed... the people executed in 2013 were closer to the 1993 numbers than the 2012 numbers.

Doing some crude calculations... if we split the difference between the two totals to a nice, round number of 20,000... the DP is applied in roughly 0.004 percent of the murder cases.

How many the above numbers are due to gun violence... now compare those numbers to those other countries..

callen

TB. Don't get your first line " 1 out of 2 ain't bad."

As to the rest well, we've discussed our respective positions on this to death. So till one day I again have the pleasure of going back to the great country of Canada (hopefully to see another pj show) and have a beer with you so I can directly try to influence you to come to the correct side, don't think we'll get anywhere.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

callen said:

TB. Don't get your first line " 1 out of 2 ain't bad."

As to the rest well, we've discussed our respective positions on this to death. So till one day I again have the pleasure of going back to the great country of Canada (hopefully to see another pj show) and have a beer with you so I can directly try to influence you to come to the correct side, don't think we'll get anywhere.

You had said: it's not good for society only good for my craving for revenge.

"1 out of 2 ain't bad"... meaning: it's at least good for 1 thing! (said in jest... and obviously not well)

I think we should have that beer, but instead... spend our time drinking it discussing the merits of Vs. and why it is a superior album to any other in the PJ catalogue.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

myoung321 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

myoung321 said:

Countries 2013 executions..
#1 China 778
#2 Iran with at least 369 put to death by the state
#3 Iraq 169
#4 Saudi Arabia 79
#5 United States 39

The United States had 14,827 people murdered in 2012.

In 1993, the US saw 24,526 people murdered.

Given the amount of time that transpires before one is finally executed... the people executed in 2013 were closer to the 1993 numbers than the 2012 numbers.

Doing some crude calculations... if we split the difference between the two totals to a nice, round number of 20,000... the DP is applied in roughly 0.004 percent of the murder cases.

How many the above numbers are due to gun violence... now compare those numbers to those other countries..

The actual numbers are staggering, but rates tell the most accurate story.

Homicide by firearm rate (2 very comparable countries):

USA 2.97 per 100,000 people (9,146 homicides by firearm in total).
Canada 0.51 per 100,000 people (173 homicides by firearm in total).

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list

callen

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

callen said:

TB. Don't get your first line " 1 out of 2 ain't bad."

As to the rest well, we've discussed our respective positions on this to death. So till one day I again have the pleasure of going back to the great country of Canada (hopefully to see another pj show) and have a beer with you so I can directly try to influence you to come to the correct side, don't think we'll get anywhere.

You had said: it's not good for society only good for my craving for revenge.

"1 out of 2 ain't bad"... meaning: it's at least good for 1 thing! (said in jest... and obviously not well)

I think we should have that beer, but instead... spend our time drinking it discussing the merits of Vs. and why it is a superior album to any other in the PJ catalogue.

Ha okay and agree on discussing pj instead. Now on vs being the best well..........

oceaninmyeyes

Richard Glossip is scheduled to be executed by OK on Jan 29. He did not commit the murder. He had no prior run-ins with with law. The man who did commit the murder initially claimed he acted alone. Justin Sneed was 20 at the time of the murder and had a juvenile record for burglary, and bomb threats and had been expelled from school for fighting teachers and students. After being offered a plea deal, he changed his confession to say that Richard Glossip offered him money to kill the owner of the hotel where they both worked. Sneed, who beat the hotel owner with a baseball bat will now be fed and housed on the state of OK's dime for the rest of his life. Sister Helen Prejean is serving as Richard Glossip's spiritual advisor. okcfox.com/story/27886529/writer-of-dead-man-walking-joins-oklahoma-death-row-inmates-fight-for-clemency

HughFreakingDillon

so if we're being completely objective here, was there ZERO evidence against Glossip, save for the story of the murderer?

HughFreakingDillon

so he helped Sneed after the murder. in what way? helped him conceal it? lied? buried the body? why would he do such a thing if he had nothing to do with it? not saying he did it, just wondering what would compel someone to cover up a murder they had no stake in. if a co worker of mine killed someone, I wouldn't help them cover it up. sounds fishy at best.

oceaninmyeyes

You can read his account of the facts of the case here. richardeglossip.com/

At 3 in the morning, Justin woke Richard to say that some drunks had broken a window. Richard told him to cover it with something and he'd take care of it in the morning. As Justin turned to leave he said "oh yeah, I just killed Barry." Richard's response was essentially yeah, right. And he went back to sleep. His disbelief continued through much of the next day, until it became clear Barry was missing. Once he realized Justin had told him the truth, he was scared. He was responsible for the motel, and had hired Sneed to work there. Richard asked his girlfriend if he should say anything. She said no, that he should stay out of it. Richard admits he was stupid. But scared and stupid does not deserve a death penalty. And after 17 years in prison he's more than paid for that crime.


Richard was offered a plea bargain before the second trial, life in prison with the possibility of parole in 20 years in exchange for a plea of guilty to second degree murder. He turned it down.


Richard responds: "I was being asked to plead guilty to a crime I didn't do." He knew he was taking a risk, but was convinced that with a 'real' trial he would not be convicted. Looking back he probably made the wrong choice. But, is that where we are as a society? That execution is a 'roll of the dice'? I keep telling Richard that he somehow has won the reverse-lottery.

I am not saying that I think he is the "brightest bulb in the box", but Sneed's first confession stated that he acted alone. He only implicated Glossip after he was offered a plea of life without parole instead of death. Sneed knew the system. Glossip was a good ole boy without a clue. Call me naive, but I kind of trust the nun's gut instinct. And I certainly have more than a reasonable doubt. I am not a supporter of the death penalty, but if we allow the state to execute innocent people are we not murderers ourselves?