Religion on the decline around the world

inlet13 · August 2012

PJ_Soul wrote:

inlet13 wrote:

Being educated and being brainwashed can easily be confused. Which is which? Is it - if you agree with it, that it's education, and if you disagree is it brainwashing? Think about it.

I think if it's fact, it's education, if it's religious dogma, it's brainwashing. I don't find the distinction too difficult at all. I personally think that in an ideal world, children wouldn't be taught about religion at all (aside from what is covered in social studies at school), and be left to read about it, study it, ask about, go to church, etc, when they hit the age of 13 or something, when they're old enough to think about what they're hearing critically and make their own determinations. In an ideal world.

Claims and statistics and even hypotheses are sometimes easily mistaken for facts. For example, we really don't know the origin of the space/life/universe. There are theories, some even with data behind them, but as of now, we don't know. There's a lot to "science" even the majority perhaps - which answers we don't know.

So, I say just teach everything. Teach facts, as you call them, but also teach opinions. Teach how opinions can sometimes be explained as facts, and how that's wrong. Teach how hypotheses are opinions. Teach how to test hypotheses. IMPORTANT: Teach that the tester can bias the results, so look upon scientific results with a mindful eye. Teach how data itself is important to make points. Teach how data should be used in opinions. Teach - sometimes even data is flawed. Teach - sometimes "we just don't know" YET. There's nothing wrong with not knowing, it's hiding that we don't know that's problematic. We can always try to learn more about that particular problem.

Anyway, back to the subject - I'd argue that under the scenario you just painted, like going to church and whatnot, its pretty equivalent to what actually occurs. Most people make up their own mind at some point in time. Personally, I think I wasn't mature enough at 13, but to each his or her own. There needs to be no rules or guidelines. Each path is different. Each person is different. Each person's environmental growth setting is different. And they are all OK. There's no right or wrong path. It's whether you get there.

PJ_Soul · August 2012

inlet13 wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

inlet13 wrote:

Being educated and being brainwashed can easily be confused. Which is which? Is it - if you agree with it, that it's education, and if you disagree is it brainwashing? Think about it.

I think if it's fact, it's education, if it's religious dogma, it's brainwashing. I don't find the distinction too difficult at all. I personally think that in an ideal world, children wouldn't be taught about religion at all (aside from what is covered in social studies at school), and be left to read about it, study it, ask about, go to church, etc, when they hit the age of 13 or something, when they're old enough to think about what they're hearing critically and make their own determinations. In an ideal world.

Claims and statistics and even hypotheses are sometimes easily mistaken for facts. For example, we really don't know the origin of the space/life/universe. There are theories, some even with data behind them, but as of now, we don't know. There's a lot to "science" even the majority perhaps - which answers we don't know.

So, I say just teach everything. Teach facts, as you call them, but also teach opinions. Teach how opinions can sometimes be explained as facts, and how that's wrong. Teach how hypotheses are opinions. Teach how to test hypotheses. IMPORTANT: Teach that the tester can bias the results, so look upon scientific results with a mindful eye. Teach how data itself is important to make points. Teach how data should be used in opinions. Teach - sometimes even data is flawed. Teach - sometimes "we just don't know" YET. There's nothing wrong with not knowing, it's hiding that we don't know that's problematic. We can always try to learn more about that particular problem.

Anyway, back to the subject - I'd argue that under the scenario you just painted, like going to church and whatnot, its pretty equivalent to what actually occurs. Most people make up their own mind at some point in time. Personally, I think I wasn't mature enough at 13, but to each his or her own. There needs to be no rules or guidelines. Each path is different. Each person is different. Each person's environmental growth setting is different. And they are all OK. There's no right or wrong path. It's whether you get there.

Yeah yeah yeah, but regular school education and religious teachers are two totally different things. I really don't find them difficult to distinguish at all.
I don't agree that the picture I painted is what already occurs among religious people at all.

inlet13 · August 2012

PJ_Soul wrote:

I don't agree that the picture I painted is what already occurs among religious people at all.

Are you religious?

JonnyPistachio · August 2012

PJ_Soul wrote:

inlet13 wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

I find that a problem arises, though, when "truth" is dictated to people from the youngest age possible... which is often the case when it comes to what people believe in this context... When people are brainwashed to believe something from childhood, is that still truth of and to oneself? I don't think so. And therein lies the main problem.

Being educated and being brainwashed can easily be confused. Which is which? Is it - if you agree with it, that it's education, and if you disagree is it brainwashing? Think about it.

I think if it's fact, it's education, if it's religious dogma, it's brainwashing. I don't find the distinction too difficult at all. I personally think that in an ideal world, children wouldn't be taught about religion at all (aside from what is covered in social studies at school), and be left to read about it, study it, ask about, go to church, etc, when they hit the age of 13 or something, when they're old enough to think about what they're hearing critically and make their own determinations. In an ideal world.

These are good questions. I like what you said PJSoul...Is it not the case that most people who are devout in religion are of the same religion of their parents/family? Although I think the term brainwashing might be a bit harsh, I do think that we are often spoonfed ideas as children and expected to believe it. I like the idea of introducing many religions and let children decide for themselves.

I know that myself and most of my friends were told that Christianity (lutheran and catholic) was what we were. I never decided on that. I was told.

Go follow up post too, Inlet.

PJ_Soul · August 2012

inlet13 wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

I don't agree that the picture I painted is what already occurs among religious people at all.

Are you religious?

No. I'm an Atheist. I became one after several years of exploring and studying various religions. Why?

inlet13 · August 2012

PJ_Soul wrote:

inlet13 wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

I don't agree that the picture I painted is what already occurs among religious people at all.

Are you religious?

No. I'm an Atheist. I became one after several years of exploring and studying various religions. Why?

We're discussing that most people make up their own minds - you are saying - religious folks don't.

I was going to say - how do you know?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you said you studied various religions and you chose to be atheist. Did you ever actually really follow a religion enough to be called a "religious person"?

If "yes", you're living proof that you're wrong.

If "no", once again, how do you know that these people aren't capable of coming to their own conclusions? You were never one of them by your own admission. This seems really judgmental.

brianlux · August 2012

inlet13 wrote:

Being educated and being brainwashed can easily be confused. Which is which? Is it - if you agree with it, that it's education, and if you disagree is it brainwashing? Think about it.

Not to over simplify the issue but I'd say that if the teacher encourages critical thinking and skepticism, that is education but if they dish out information and beliefs as truth without encouraging that kind of thinking, that is brainwashing.

Which method of teaching used most often in religious teaching? That's a rhetorical question. It's also why I personally rejected all religion and choose the simpler beliefs of mystery and wonder.

PJ_Soul · August 2012

inlet13 wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

inlet13 wrote:

Are you religious?

No. I'm an Atheist. I became one after several years of exploring and studying various religions. Why?

We're discussing that most people make up their own minds - you are saying - religious folks don't.

I was going to say - how do you know?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you said you studied various religions and you chose to be atheist. Did you ever actually really follow a religion enough to be called a "religious person"?

If "yes", you're living proof that you're wrong.

If "no", once again, how do you know that these people aren't capable of coming to their own conclusions? You were never one of them by your own admission. This seems really judgmental.

No, I didn't. I know that MANY people aren't capable of coming to their own conclusions because I spent so much time around so many of them during my own explorations - I'm talking about entire congregations of people, who are a good example of what is being match among other congregations within the same denomination. It's not a mistake... The churches go out of their way to do it, and are good at what they do. They tried to do it to me too, just as a matter of course. And btw, when I rejected what they were trying to do (brainwash me), they told me I was going to burn in hell and shit. They don't kid around. And I'm talking several different Christian churches (I did NOT have the same kinds of experiences with Islamists, although I did did some exploring with Sikhism, and it really wasn't much different in this context, but they were more careful and less obvious about it, by design). I do NOT mean all people. But a great many of them. It's how organized religion works. You don't have to take my word on it obviously. I only have my own experiences and observations to go on (and what else I hear from others). But I do think that my own experiences are pretty informative.

hedonist · August 2012

inlet13 wrote:

We're discussing that most people make up their own minds - you are saying - religious folks don't.

I was going to say - how do you know?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you said you studied various religions and you chose to be atheist. Did you ever actually really follow a religion enough to be called a "religious person"?

If "yes", you're living proof that you're wrong.

If "no", once again, how do you know that these people aren't capable of coming to their own conclusions? You were never one of them by your own admission. This seems really judgmental.

inlet, once again, gotta say I appreciate your posts and viewpoints - not necessarily because I tend to agree with them, but because they make sense to me.

PJ_Soul, I don't necessarily disagree with you on some of your points, but at the same time, they're kind of insulting to me, to my family. I can respect how you've come to your conclusions, but some of your comments seem dismissive of those who have come to theirs by a different means. As I see it, in the end, those who are honest, decent, open-minded people live their lives by a certain credo - much like those who are non-religious and yet (still!) good people.

Hope this is taken in the spirit with which it's intended.

PJ_Soul · August 2012

hedonist wrote:

inlet13 wrote:

We're discussing that most people make up their own minds - you are saying - religious folks don't.

I was going to say - how do you know?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you said you studied various religions and you chose to be atheist. Did you ever actually really follow a religion enough to be called a "religious person"?

If "yes", you're living proof that you're wrong.

If "no", once again, how do you know that these people aren't capable of coming to their own conclusions? You were never one of them by your own admission. This seems really judgmental.

inlet, once again, gotta say I appreciate your posts and viewpoints - not necessarily because I tend to agree with them, but because they make sense to me.

PJ_Soul, I don't necessarily disagree with you on some of your points, but at the same time, they're kind of insulting to me, to my family. I can respect how you've come to your conclusions, but some of your comments seem dismissive of those who have come to theirs by a different means. As I see it, in the end, those who are honest, decent, open-minded people live their lives by a certain credo - much like those who are non-religious and yet (still!) good people.

Hope this is taken in the spirit with which it's intended.

Sorry if you're offended. I am just saying it as I see it. I don't mean to offend, but only to be honest about what I've observed. I guess I'll say that I don't actually feel judgmental about it. I view my points in a fairly detached way. And I am always understanding of those who find comfort or whatever else in their beliefs, assuming they don't get in the way of anyone else's beliefs. I'm not open minded about organized religion or how it works, but I am open minded about people and how they choose to live their lives.

Cosmo · August 2012

brianlux wrote:

inlet13 wrote:

Being educated and being brainwashed can easily be confused. Which is which? Is it - if you agree with it, that it's education, and if you disagree is it brainwashing? Think about it.

Not to over simplify the issue but I'd say that if the teacher encourages critical thinking and skepticism, that is education but if they dish out information and beliefs as truth without encouraging that kind of thinking, that is brainwashing.

Which method of teaching used most often in religious teaching? That's a rhetorical question. It's also why I personally rejected all religion and choose the simpler beliefs of mystery and wonder.

...
Thanx for that Brian. I was thinking along the same lines... where a student is encouraged to ask questions, whereas the person seated in the pew is listening to a one way sermon. Unless church has changed in the past 3 or 4 decades... can we ask questions that crop up during the sermons?

brianlux · August 2012

Cosmo wrote:

brianlux wrote:

inlet13 wrote:

Being educated and being brainwashed can easily be confused. Which is which? Is it - if you agree with it, that it's education, and if you disagree is it brainwashing? Think about it.

Not to over simplify the issue but I'd say that if the teacher encourages critical thinking and skepticism, that is education but if they dish out information and beliefs as truth without encouraging that kind of thinking, that is brainwashing.

Which method of teaching used most often in religious teaching? That's a rhetorical question. It's also why I personally rejected all religion and choose the simpler beliefs of mystery and wonder.

...
Thanx for that Brian. I was thinking along the same lines... where a student is encouraged to ask questions, whereas the person seated in the pew is listening to a one way sermon. Unless church has changed in the past 3 or 4 decades... can we ask questions that crop up during the sermons?

Imagine, Cosmo, a church service involving Socratic dialog!

peacefrompaul · August 2012

brianlux wrote:

Imagine, Cosmo, a church service involving Socratic dialog!

That would be insane

PJ_Soul · August 2012

Cosmo wrote:

brianlux wrote:

inlet13 wrote:

Being educated and being brainwashed can easily be confused. Which is which? Is it - if you agree with it, that it's education, and if you disagree is it brainwashing? Think about it.

Not to over simplify the issue but I'd say that if the teacher encourages critical thinking and skepticism, that is education but if they dish out information and beliefs as truth without encouraging that kind of thinking, that is brainwashing.

Which method of teaching used most often in religious teaching? That's a rhetorical question. It's also why I personally rejected all religion and choose the simpler beliefs of mystery and wonder.

...
Thanx for that Brian. I was thinking along the same lines... where a student is encouraged to ask questions, whereas the person seated in the pew is listening to a one way sermon. Unless church has changed in the past 3 or 4 decades... can we ask questions that crop up during the sermons?

As far as I know, you can't really ask questions that crop up in Sunday school or religious private school either, if they at all question or challenge the religious teachings.

hedonist · August 2012

PJ_Soul wrote:

hedonist wrote:

PJ_Soul, I don't necessarily disagree with you on some of your points, but at the same time, they're kind of insulting to me, to my family. I can respect how you've come to your conclusions, but some of your comments seem dismissive of those who have come to theirs by a different means. As I see it, in the end, those who are honest, decent, open-minded people live their lives by a certain credo - much like those who are non-religious and yet (still!) good people.

Hope this is taken in the spirit with which it's intended.

Sorry if you're offended. I am just saying it as I see it. I don't mean to offend, but only to be honest about what I've observed. I guess I'll say that I don't actually feel judgmental about it. I view my points in a fairly detached way. And I am always understanding of those who find comfort or whatever else in their beliefs, assuming they don't get in the way of anyone else's beliefs. I'm not open minded about organized religion or how it works, but I am open minded about people and how they choose to live their lives.

I said I found some of your comments insulting to me and mine. But, I'm not offended - it takes a lot for me to get there. For what it's worth though, you may not feel you're being judgmental, but some of your comments come off that way, ie, brainwashing. Hell, we're all judgmental to a degree. I am, much as I wish I weren't, or could be less so. But, I am.

It's good to know the intent behind your comments, though. We're on the same page in the not-getting-in-the-way-of-others'-beliefs thing.

brianlux · August 2012

PJ_Soul wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

brianlux wrote:

...
Thanx for that Brian. I was thinking along the same lines... where a student is encouraged to ask questions, whereas the person seated in the pew is listening to a one way sermon. Unless church has changed in the past 3 or 4 decades... can we ask questions that crop up during the sermons?

As far as I know, you can't really ask questions that crop up in Sunday school or religious private school either, if they at all question or challenge the religious teachings.

Exactly! And just as bad or worse, the teachers don't question or challenge their own beliefs.

I'd really be interested in hearing of such religious teaching if there are any out there. If so, I'd guess it would have to be Unitarian Universalism of which I honestly don't know a lot about.

PJ_Soul · August 2012

brianlux wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

As far as I know, you can't really ask questions that crop up in Sunday school or religious private school either, if they at all question or challenge the religious teachings.

Exactly! And just as bad or worse, the teachers don't question or challenge their own beliefs.

I'd really be interested in hearing of such religious teaching if there are any out there. If so, I'd guess it would have to be Unitarian Universalism of which I honestly don't know a lot about.

It happens in university level humanities and philosophy courses.

I'd like to think that it is allowed to happen in theological universities and seminaries too, at the very least to prepare the students for diplomatically answering such challenges in their careers without going against the church's teachings, but I don't know about that.

Cosmo · August 2012

PJ_Soul wrote:

As far as I know, you can't really ask questions that crop up in Sunday school or religious private school either, if they at all question or challenge the religious teachings.

...
I remember Sunday School and asking the teacher, aren't we supposed to be resting today? I mean, it's one of the Commandments... wasn't she working as a teacher? And what about the people who are working at the Sears we were going to go to after Sunday school... are those people going to Hell?
The answer was pretty much... "That as long as people had Jesus in their hearts, it provided their spirit to rest" or something along those lines... but it was usually, "That's not what we're talking about today".

Cosmo · August 2012

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

I think it's actually more likely that we wouldn't even understand the answer if we were presented with it. so maybe we do have it after all.

...
That's true. Maybe God is just too complex for any of us to comprehend. Maybe tha is the answer.

catefrances · August 2012

Cosmo wrote:

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

I think it's actually more likely that we wouldn't even understand the answer if we were presented with it. so maybe we do have it after all.

...
That's true. Maybe God is just too complex for any of us to comprehend. Maybe tha is the answer.

whenever i hear this it shits me., why would God be too complex for those who are suppose to believe in him? it makes zero sense. why would He toy with his creation that way? is He an arse? does he sit up there and laugh at our incomprehension? does it amuse Him to see us try and figure it out? i think the God is too complex for us to understand argument is a cop out cause questions asked cant be answered.

Religion on the decline around the world

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