Religion on the decline around the world

peacefrompaul · August 2012

catefrances wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

catefrances wrote:

but we are not all christians.. so to stone adulterers based on biblical law is a breach of someones human rights at the least. we need secular laws for secular societies. oh and adultery is not against our law.

...
I know. I used the adulterers thing to illustrate the duality of religion, since religion is made from the mind of Man.
I agree with what you and Inlet both say... we don't want government to fuse with religion to make laws we must all obey. I also believe that we HAVE to have laws because it is in Man's nature to interpret what is good for the self... is good. Regardless of how evil it may be to others. It's not because Man is inherently evil... he is inherently selfish... just like every other animal on the planet who wishes to survive.

you know i often wonder to how much degree man is actually a social animal. i know we live in these groups called society but were they meant to be as large as they are??? and if not, by doing so, have we unbalanced the apple cart and ourselves in the process.

Good thought, Cate. I'm not so sure... it can be so overwhelming and exhausting...

Me? I'll be sitting in the corner staring at it. Being around a lot of people is not something I like to do very often.

catefrances · August 2012

peacefrompaul wrote:

Good thought, Cate. I'm not so sure... it can be so overwhelming and exhausting...

Me? I'll be sitting in the corner staring at it. Being around a lot of people is not something I like to do very often.

me neither.

hedonist · August 2012

peacefrompaul wrote:

Good thought, Cate. I'm not so sure... it can be so overwhelming and exhausting...

Me? I'll be sitting in the corner staring at it. Being around a lot of people is not something I like to do very often.

Sounds much like me - which is why concerts (around a lot of people) is typicallly reserved for those bands truly worth it (by my somewhat biased standards).

This thread has become wonderful fodder for this brain of mine.

Thanks, all!

pandora · August 2012

Cosmo wrote:

inlet13 wrote:

The truth is, I think you're ever-so-slighly siding with one side up here in your comments.

...
No. I am right smack dab in the middle on this one. I will give the person who says he absolutely knows that God does NOT exist the same arguements that I would the person who says he knows God does exist. The Arguement on my part is the same for either side... they do NOT know, they may believe they know, but belief is not knowledge. Both persons are equally full of shit when they try to use the arguement about KNOWING the truth about God. And i will tell them both the same thing... in equal terms.

Wow judge people much?

This is based on what you think what you feel ...
YOU don't know so no one can...

pandora · August 2012

Cosmo wrote:

That is the duality of Man. We are capable of creating emmense beauty... and horrific evil. When looked at through the lense of objectivity, religion can beautiful and hideous at the same time. It all depends on the person doing the interpretation as to which way the ball will roll.
I believe the thing we should realize is that religion is man made... whether it is the monolith of the Catholic Church or the singular person who believes God talks to him. It is not God's doing... it's man's ruin.

Again judgmental and a blatant generalization that does not embrace the individual good
and collective good that goes with a religion.
And you say you do not even the least bit take a side ... give us a break

Do you not see? You speak of the human factor then totally disregard it
as far as religion is concerned. I don't belong to a religion but I meet the very best of people,
working their lives for others purely, unselfishly, who do.

Freedom of choice is the human factor, the most important factor to building character,
the path we walk and learn from. Within religion is the human factor
and should be recognized for the good done in the name of religion.

Dissidentman · August 2012

Zoso wrote:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/08/religiosity-plummets-ireland-declines-worldwide-atheism_n_1757453.html

I found this an interesting but not overly surprising trend..

I think this is good for the world. I believe people are inherently good, not because they fear retribution from the almighty, but because we are wired that way.

If people need an external motivation to be good or to do good things, then pick something. Do it in the name of corn Flakes for all I care. I don't believe anyone has ever been executed in the name of corn Flakes.

Cosmo · August 2012

inlet13 wrote:

Ok, it just seemed like you were coming down hard on the religious side, and not touching the anti-religious side. That's all.

...
It's probably because you will find more people claiming to know the truth about God on the religious side of the discussion. Most atheists I run into will say stuff like, 'I don't **believe** in God' and I have rarely come across one that claims to know, beyond any and all doubt, that God does not exist. I'm calling bullshit on the latter because I KNOW that person does not know. The fact is, he believes he know God does not exist, when the fact is he does not know.
Proof of God is elusive... as elusive as proof that God does not exist. Which is why the truth is... we just don't know.

Dissidentman · August 2012

No one has seen a unicorn, do they exist?

BinauralJam · August 2012

Dissidentman wrote:

No one has seen a unicorn, do they exist?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PL1ns00h-4

around the 34 second mark

Cosmo · August 2012

Dissidentman wrote:

No one has seen a unicorn, do they exist?

...
I don't know. But, I will tell anyone that claims to know they exist... is either full of shit... or pass me that bong.

Jeanwah · August 2012

Dissidentman wrote:

No one has seen a unicorn, do they exist?

They exist!

It's an Arabian Oryx, the animal that led to the idea of the mythical unicorn because when you see it's profile, the 2 horns like it's only one.

Cosmo · August 2012

Jeanwah wrote:

They exist!

It's an Arabian Oryx, the animal that led to the idea of the mythical unicorn because when you see it's profile, the 2 horns like it's only one.

...
Yes.... but, does he piss rainbows?

fuck · August 2012

I thought this article was relevant to some of the discussion in this thread. Particularly the parts I chose from it below, though the whole thing is an interesting read:

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/c ... ookie.html

"God, to me, has always been elusive. I understand perfectly why atheists are baffled by religion, but I’m just as baffled by them; I could never claim such certainty about the workings of the universe as to rule out any possibility of God. Faith is misunderstood as a synonym for certitude, but really it’s a concept that has doubt folded into it. My own uncertainty about how to conceive of God is deep. As this month of dawns and sunsets neared its end, I began to wonder if the fast has something to do with God’s very unknowability.

...When the fast empties you out during Ramadan, no matter how well you adjust to the deprivation, you never stop feeling the tug of hunger. That tug is a reminder—a reminder, perhaps, of that void inside the Kaaba, and the silent mystery of the divine. On Day Twenty-seven, I happened upon a verse in the Koran about a mirage in the desert: “The thirsty man takes it to be water until he comes to it and finds it to be nothing, and where he thought it to be, there he finds God.”"

Cosmo · August 2012

fuck wrote:

I thought this article was relevant to some of the discussion in this thread. Particularly the parts I chose from it below, though the whole thing is an interesting read:

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/c ... ookie.html

"God, to me, has always been elusive. I understand perfectly why atheists are baffled by religion, but I’m just as baffled by them; I could never claim such certainty about the workings of the universe as to rule out any possibility of God. Faith is misunderstood as a synonym for certitude, but really it’s a concept that has doubt folded into it. My own uncertainty about how to conceive of God is deep. As this month of dawns and sunsets neared its end, I began to wonder if the fast has something to do with God’s very unknowability.

...When the fast empties you out during Ramadan, no matter how well you adjust to the deprivation, you never stop feeling the tug of hunger. That tug is a reminder—a reminder, perhaps, of that void inside the Kaaba, and the silent mystery of the divine. On Day Twenty-seven, I happened upon a verse in the Koran about a mirage in the desert: “The thirsty man takes it to be water until he comes to it and finds it to be nothing, and where he thought it to be, there he finds God.”"

...
This cuts to the core of which I believe... God's unknowability.
I am much too feeble of a living being to know and understand God and truth in my current state of existance... and... so is everyone else.

inlet13 · August 2012

Cosmo wrote:

fuck wrote:

I thought this article was relevant to some of the discussion in this thread. Particularly the parts I chose from it below, though the whole thing is an interesting read:

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/c ... ookie.html

"God, to me, has always been elusive. I understand perfectly why atheists are baffled by religion, but I’m just as baffled by them; I could never claim such certainty about the workings of the universe as to rule out any possibility of God. Faith is misunderstood as a synonym for certitude, but really it’s a concept that has doubt folded into it. My own uncertainty about how to conceive of God is deep. As this month of dawns and sunsets neared its end, I began to wonder if the fast has something to do with God’s very unknowability.

...When the fast empties you out during Ramadan, no matter how well you adjust to the deprivation, you never stop feeling the tug of hunger. That tug is a reminder—a reminder, perhaps, of that void inside the Kaaba, and the silent mystery of the divine. On Day Twenty-seven, I happened upon a verse in the Koran about a mirage in the desert: “The thirsty man takes it to be water until he comes to it and finds it to be nothing, and where he thought it to be, there he finds God.”"

...
This cuts to the core of which I believe... God's unknowability.
I am much too feeble of a living being to know and understand God and truth in my current state of existance... and... so is everyone else.

You know, I keep coming back to you're line - "so is everyone else". You are saying you're too feeble of a living being to understand God... fair enough. No offense to you - but, how do you know everyone else is the same? You're not them. They could have had an experience you didn't. They could know something you don't.

I get your point though that faith is not "knowing"... which you've been trying to drive home. I don't think anyone disagrees that's there's an element of belief that is in question. I just think maybe there may be a person out there who actually did "know"... maybe they had an experience or something. It's possible. Just something to think about.

It's been an interesting thread.

Cosmo · August 2012

inlet13 wrote:

You know, I keep coming back to you're line - "so is everyone else". You are saying you're too feeble of a living being to understand God... fair enough. No offense to you - but, how do you know everyone else is the same? You're not them. They could have had an experience you didn't. They could know something you don't.

I get your point though that faith is not "knowing"... which you've been trying to drive home. I don't think anyone disagrees that's there's an element of belief that is in question. I just think maybe there may be a person out there who actually did "know"... maybe they had an experience or something. It's possible. Just something to think about.

It's been an interesting thread.

...
It is possible for my cat to learn to play the guitar in the realm of 'anything being possible'. The difference being, possibility versus probabllity. My cat may possibly figure out the chords to 'Stray Cat Blues' someday, but, there is a very low probability that she will.
As for those whom claim to have had meetings with God... how many of them have been able to explain it? If you said, 'Not many... if any', you are probably right. They may have encountered God... but do not know or understand God. They may have fortified their belief... but, I have yet to read or hear of anyone who has reached that level of enlightenment to explain what God's plan for the rest of us is.
...
I might add... it is equally arrogant for someone to claim to know that God does not exist. Just because we cannot explain God or prove of God's existance is not truth ot knowledge, either.

PJ_Soul · August 2012

fuck wrote:

I thought this article was relevant to some of the discussion in this thread. Particularly the parts I chose from it below, though the whole thing is an interesting read:

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/c ... ookie.html

"God, to me, has always been elusive. I understand perfectly why atheists are baffled by religion, but I’m just as baffled by them; I could never claim such certainty about the workings of the universe as to rule out any possibility of God. Faith is misunderstood as a synonym for certitude, but really it’s a concept that has doubt folded into it. My own uncertainty about how to conceive of God is deep. As this month of dawns and sunsets neared its end, I began to wonder if the fast has something to do with God’s very unknowability.

...When the fast empties you out during Ramadan, no matter how well you adjust to the deprivation, you never stop feeling the tug of hunger. That tug is a reminder—a reminder, perhaps, of that void inside the Kaaba, and the silent mystery of the divine. On Day Twenty-seven, I happened upon a verse in the Koran about a mirage in the desert: “The thirsty man takes it to be water until he comes to it and finds it to be nothing, and where he thought it to be, there he finds God.”"

This doesn't make too much sense for me. Frankly, I think that saying it's arrogant to rule out the possibility of God is the same as saying it's arrogant to rule out the possibility of the existence of Puff the Magic Dragon after the song was written. I don't consider God to be a viable consideration in the first place. It's just something that people made up out of thin air... I don't really see any reason for this fabrication to be factored in to any consideration of the universe. Why should a fictional character invented by man be something I consider for something as profound as the workings of the universe? That doesn't make any sense, and I don't think it's very fair to suggest. It doesn't make me arrogant... it's just a necessary result of my lack of belief in God and my beliefs about how belief in God developed for others. Yes, that means I think that most of the world's population is wrong as far as the existence of God is concerned... but I don't think that because I'm smug. I really can't help it. It's not like I went out of my way to disbelieve in God just to be contrary. I don't have any desire to tell 90% of the world that they're wrong about something that means so much to them... But... I CAN'T think that there is any possibility for the existence of God......... Doesn't that make me a good Atheist?

catefrances · August 2012

Cosmo wrote:

..
It is possible for my cat to learn to play the guitar in the realm of 'anything being possible'. The difference being, possibility versus probabllity. My cat may possibly figure out the chords to 'Stray Cat Blues' someday, but, there is a very low probability that she will.
As for those whom claim to have had meetings with God... how many of them have been able to explain it? If you said, 'Not many... if any', you are probably right. They may have encountered God... but do not know or understand God. They may have fortified their belief... but, I have yet to read or hear of anyone who has reached that level of enlightenment to explain what God's plan for the rest of us is.
...
I might add... it is equally arrogant for someone to claim to know that God does not exist. Just because we cannot explain God or prove of God's existance is not truth ot knowledge, either.

i dont think it is physically possible for your cat to learn to play the guitar. and i dont think that anything is possible.

Cosmo · August 2012

catefrances wrote:

i dont think it is physically possible for your cat to learn to play the guitar. and i dont think that anything is possible.

...
That was for those whom believe that 'Anything is possible'. If anything truely IS possible... then, 'anything' would also include my cat playing the guitar.
Possiblity and probability get mixed up... just like knowledge and belief get mixed up when talk turn to that of God.

catefrances · August 2012

Cosmo wrote:

catefrances wrote:

i dont think it is physically possible for your cat to learn to play the guitar. and i dont think that anything is possible.

...
That was for those whom believe that 'Anything is possible'. If anything truely IS possible... then, 'anything' would also include my cat playing the guitar.
Possiblity and probability get mixed up... just like knowledge and belief get mixed up when talk turn to that of God.

aah ok... well thats not me, thats for sure.

the difference between knowledge and belief as far as i can see is that knowledge relies on fact whilst belief relies on faith, which requires no basis in fact at all.

Religion on the decline around the world

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