Religion on the decline around the world

hedonist · August 2012

cincybearcat wrote:

Hell, I think some people think I'm religious the way I take offense to their anti-god ranting.

I've had the same happen with me.

There ARE some who believe in god, in religion, in something perhaps different than I, who live honest and decent and compassionate lives. If their faith helps them to do that - and gets them through what they otherwise couldn't without it - who am I to put them down?

I think the common theme here is live and let live. Those who do, no matter their belief, are just fine by me.

inlet13 · August 2012

hedonist wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

Hell, I think some people think I'm religious the way I take offense to their anti-god ranting.

I've had the same happen with me.

There ARE some who believe in god, in religion, in something perhaps different than I, who live honest and decent and compassionate lives. If their faith helps them to do that - and gets them through what they otherwise couldn't without it - who am I to put them down?

I think the common theme here is live and let live. Those who do, no matter their belief, are just fine by me.

Here in lies the problem, on both sides there are fervent "non-believers" and fervent "believers" who have an inherent insecurity issues. They can't live and let live. They need control. They need everyone to believe the same as them.

Problem is - that will never, ever happen. So, they try to make it happen - via government. One more reason why small government is wise government. Founding fathers knew this.

Cosmo · August 2012

inlet13 wrote:

Here in lies the problem, on both sides there are fervent "non-believers" and fervent "believers" who have an inherent insecurity issues. They can't live and let live. They need control. They need everyone to believe the same as them.

Problem is - that will never, ever happen. So, they try to make it happen - via government. One more reason why small government is wise government. Founding fathers knew this.

...
Which is why I sit squarely in the 'I don't know' camp. Because, that is the truth, I don't know.
I am pretty fair with the believe it or not formula. I really don't care what anyone believes. The problem I have is with the ones that claim to know the answer. I know they don't know based upon the fact that no one knows. We believe in God or we don't believe in God and everything in between. But, the truth is... it is BELIEF that God exists or God does not exist... not knowledge tha God exists or does not exist.
Therefore, not truth.

inlet13 · August 2012

Cosmo wrote:

inlet13 wrote:

Here in lies the problem, on both sides there are fervent "non-believers" and fervent "believers" who have an inherent insecurity issues. They can't live and let live. They need control. They need everyone to believe the same as them.

Problem is - that will never, ever happen. So, they try to make it happen - via government. One more reason why small government is wise government. Founding fathers knew this.

...
Which is why I sit squarely in the 'I don't know' camp. Because, that is the truth, I don't know.
I am pretty fair with the believe it or not formula. I really don't care what anyone believes. The problem I have is with the ones that claim to know the answer. I know they don't know based upon the fact that no one knows. We believe in God or we don't believe in God and everything in between. But, the truth is... it is BELIEF that God exists or God does not exist... not knowledge tha God exists or does not exist.
Therefore, not truth.

Shouldn't let that stuff bother you though. If they believe it, great. If they don't, great. Only people's viewpoints that should matter to us are maybe - just maybe family. Realistically though the only one you can control is our own viewpoint. Other that, who really cares?

Belief is individualized. Since it's individualized, for all we know, both sides could be right. When in discussions on this, people don't often think about that.

Cosmo · August 2012

inlet13 wrote:

Shouldn't let that stuff bother you though. If they believe it, great. If they don't, great. Only people's viewpoints that should matter to us are maybe - just maybe family. Realistically though the only one you can control is our own viewpoint. Other that, who really cares?

Belief is individualized. Since it's individualized, for all we know, both sides could be right. When in discussions on this, people don't often think about that.

...
The belief doesn't bother me. It's the claim to know.
The ones that claim to know are typically the ones who want to set legislation that you and I must follow based upon their belief... or the ones that want to make Creationism a science... or make it a capital offense to convert out of Islam... to go to war... to commit genocide with a clear conscience... all those crazy things that affect poeple other than themselves. When religion claims to know... they claim you know how you are supposed to believe.
...
I agree with you 100%... Belief is personal and should focus on the self... without claiming to know that theirs is the the right way... and you must follow.
That's where I have the problem.

know1 · August 2012

Cosmo wrote:

...
The problem is people... not religion.
If people understood the difference between truth and belief, we wouldn't be having this discussion. People think they KNOW the truth (i.e. Does God Exist?), when, in fact, they BELIEVE that God does or does not exist.
If everyone just accepted the truth that their beliefs are beliefs that solely belong to them... none of this would matter.
...
By the way, the correct answer to the question, 'Does God Exist?'... "I don't know".

I agree with this.

inlet13 · August 2012

Cosmo wrote:

The belief doesn't bother me. It's the claim to know.
The ones that claim to know are typically the ones who want to set legislation that you and I must follow based upon their belief... or the ones that want to make Creationism a science... or make it a capital offense to convert out of Islam... to go to war... to commit genocide with a clear conscience... all those crazy things that affect poeple other than themselves. When religion claims to know... they claim you know how you are supposed to believe.

The truth is, I think you're ever-so-slighly siding with one side up here in your comments. There are many who look at it from the other end of the spectrum with similar complaints about those who are athiest. I don't have a problem with either having a claim to know - I mean - an atheist is basically saying "I KNOW God Does Not Exist". Just like a fervent Evangelical is saying "I KNOW God Does Exist". They both have that right - you or I don't have to agree. Although, I'll agree that when they pester you (and don't know you) in a fucking airport line - it's pretty annoying.

I'll switch your last line a bit - when "government claims to know.... they claim you know how you are supposed to believe." I think where we differ is that I don't think it's one sides fault - they are all entitled to believe (or claim to know) what they want. They, as an individual, can't influence what I believe or do. However, gov't can in some ways. So, it's actually government growth's fault.

So I say - try to get "government" out of these issues, not the other way around. Then there's no way to "legislate" morality/religion or lack there of. Government should be involved in protection - pretty much that's it. You can't hurt a fellow citizen - government should be all over that.

I think if gov't shrank you'd also see less of these folks annoying people about their viewpoints too which would be great for everyone. Elections spur religious spirit and venom. It's an odd pairing - really.

Government should be small - and if it was, many of these issues would not exist.

Cosmo wrote:

...
I agree with you 100%... Belief is personal and should focus on the self... without claiming to know that theirs is the the right way... and you must follow.
That's where I have the problem.

Well, I think it happens on both sides and the best way to handle it is to acknowledge it's on both sides, not going away - in fact it's worsening - and try to find a solution. The easy solution is shrink government.

Government is the method to force totalitarian viewpoints on to others. Shrink their tentacles and a lot of these problems would dissipate.

Cosmo · August 2012

inlet13 wrote:

The truth is, I think you're ever-so-slighly siding with one side up here in your comments. There are many who look at it from the other end of the spectrum with similar complaints about those who are athiest. I don't have a problem with either having a claim to know - I mean - an atheist is basically saying "I KNOW God Does Not Exist". Just like a fervent Evangelical is saying "I KNOW God Does Exist". They both have that right - you or I don't have to agree. Although, I'll agree that when they pester you (and don't know you) in a fucking airport line - it's pretty annoying.

I'll switch your last line a bit - when "government claims to know.... they claim you know how you are supposed to believe." I think where we differ is that I don't think it's one sides fault - they are all entitled to believe (or claim to know) what they want. They, as an individual, can't influence what I believe or do. However, gov't can in some ways. So, it's actually government growth's fault.

So I say - try to get "government" out of these issues, not the other way around. Then there's no way to "legislate" morality/religion or lack there of. Government should be involved in protection - pretty much that's it. You can't hurt a fellow citizen - government should be all over that.

I think if gov't shrank you'd also see less of these folks annoying people about their viewpoints too which would be great for everyone. Elections spur religious spirit and venom. It's an odd pairing - really.

Government should be small - and if it was, many of these issues would not exist.

Well, I think it happens on both sides and the best way to handle it is to acknowledge it's on both sides, not going away - in fact it's worsening - and try to find a solution. The easy solution is shrink government.

Government is the method to force totalitarian viewpoints on to others. Shrink their tentacles and a lot of these problems would dissipate.

...
Again. We are in agreement. The Government has absolutely no place to inject God into my, or anyone else's life. Let me decide that. That is why I don't want government erecting Ten Commandments... or Minioras... or any other religious symbols. Let the churches do that kind of stuff and let the people decide which church to attend.

pandora · August 2012

inlet13 wrote:

The truth is, I think you're ever-so-slighly siding with one side up here in your comments. There are many who look at it from the other end of the spectrum with similar complaints about those who are athiest. I don't have a problem with either having a claim to know - I mean - an atheist is basically saying "I KNOW God Does Not Exist". Just like a fervent Evangelical is saying "I KNOW God Does Exist". They both have that right - you or I don't have to agree. Although, I'll agree that when they pester you (and don't know you) in a fucking airport line - it's pretty annoying.

always fair and open minded... you rock!
and your words exactly true

I will add one does not have to be of any religion to know God.
This the great thing about God! God is just there for the asking.

catefrances · August 2012

Cosmo wrote:

...
The problem is people... not religion.
If people understood the difference between truth and belief, we wouldn't be having this discussion. People think they KNOW the truth (i.e. Does God Exist?), when, in fact, they BELIEVE that God does or does not exist.
If everyone just accepted the truth that their beliefs are beliefs that solely belong to them... none of this would matter.
...
By the way, the correct answer to the question, 'Does God Exist?'... "I don't know".

the problem is always people. theyre a pain in the arse and fuck basically everything up. without people guns would kill no one... without people religion would be... well actually.. without people religion wouldnt exist. people are irrational rational creatures. we try to control the things we cant and get frustrated that we cant. ive given up trying to guide my boat down the river. it hasnt worked well in my past and its a waste of my energies. so ive decided to go with the current and deal with whats thrown up when its thrown up... and i can feel the weight lifted off my shoulders.

and the correct answer(for me) to the question 'does god exist?' is....

for me, no.

Cosmo · August 2012

inlet13 wrote:

The truth is, I think you're ever-so-slighly siding with one side up here in your comments.

...
No. I am right smack dab in the middle on this one. I will give the person who says he absolutely knows that God does NOT exist the same arguements that I would the person who says he knows God does exist. The Arguement on my part is the same for either side... they do NOT know, they may believe they know, but belief is not knowledge. Both persons are equally full of shit when they try to use the arguement about KNOWING the truth about God. And i will tell them both the same thing... in equal terms.

Cosmo · August 2012

catefrances wrote:

the problem is always people. theyre a pain in the arse and fuck basically everything up. without people guns would kill no one... without people religion would be... well actually.. without people religion wouldnt exist. people are irrational rational creatures. we try to control the things we cant and get frustrated that we cant. ive given up trying to guide my boat down the river. it hasnt worked well in my past and its a waste of my energies. so ive decided to go with the current and deal with whats thrown up when its thrown up... and i can feel the weight lifted off my shoulders.

and the correct answer(for me) to the question 'does god exist?' is...
for me, no.

...
That is the duality of Man. We are capable of creating emmense beauty... and horrific evil. When looked at through the lense of objectivity, religion can beautiful and hideous at the same time. It all depends on the person doing the interpretation as to which way the ball will roll.
I believe the thing we should realize is that religion is man made... whether it is the monolith of the Catholic Church or the singular person who believes God talks to him. It is not God's doing... it's man's ruin.

catefrances · August 2012

Cosmo wrote:

catefrances wrote:

the problem is always people. theyre a pain in the arse and fuck basically everything up. without people guns would kill no one... without people religion would be... well actually.. without people religion wouldnt exist. people are irrational rational creatures. we try to control the things we cant and get frustrated that we cant. ive given up trying to guide my boat down the river. it hasnt worked well in my past and its a waste of my energies. so ive decided to go with the current and deal with whats thrown up when its thrown up... and i can feel the weight lifted off my shoulders.

and the correct answer(for me) to the question 'does god exist?' is...
for me, no.

...
That is the duality of Man. We are capable of creating emmense beauty... and horrific evil. When looked at through the lense of objectivity, religion can beautiful and hideous at the same time. It all depends on the person doing the interpretation as to which way the ball will roll.
I believe the thing we should realize is that religion is man made... whether it is the monolith of the Catholic Church or the singular person who believes God talks to him. It is not God's doing... it's man's ruin.

it totally is.. were complex creatures and our own worst enemy at times. but i also think this cause i think too much(like the rest of humankind in my position)

absolutely religion is man mad and it has always been about control.

Cosmo · August 2012

catefrances wrote:

it totally is.. were complex creatures and our own worst enemy at times. but i also think this cause i think too much(like the rest of humankind in my position)

absolutely religion is man mad and it has always been about control.

...
I believe the original intent of religion was to establish order and to inspire Paleolithic Man to do good. But, in order to define good, you HAVE to define evil. That's where the problem came from. The interpretation of who is good and who is evil.
If today were Biblical times... would the U.S. be good... or would we be Rome? Who is David and who is Goliath? It would all depend on who was tasked to write the story that would go into the Bible, right?

catefrances · August 2012

Cosmo wrote:

catefrances wrote:

it totally is.. were complex creatures and our own worst enemy at times. but i also think this cause i think too much(like the rest of humankind in my position)

absolutely religion is man mad and it has always been about control.

...
I believe the original intent of religion was to establish order and to inspire Paleolithic Man to do good. But, in order to define good, you HAVE to define evil. That's where the problem came from. The interpretation of who is good and who is evil.
If today were Biblical times... would the U.S. be good... or would we be Rome? Who is David and who is Goliath? It would all depend on who was tasked to write the story that would go into the Bible, right?

interesting... it is my opinion that the worshop of dieties evolved from a need to make sense of the world around us. we needed a reason for something happening(flood/pestilence/drought/whatever)and so we made one up that fit our very limited intelligence.and when something happened that countered the first instance then we just made up another to explain that. and we provided actions and words to sit alongside these suppositions of ours and before we knew it we had ourselves a religion of some sort.and of course somewhere along the line we started to personify the deity/ies. and then at some stage the diety shifted from simply an image of ourselves to a divine being.

Cosmo · August 2012

catefrances wrote:

interesting... it is my opinion that the worshop of dieties evolved from a need to make sense of the world around us. we needed a reason for something happening(flood/pestilence/drought/whatever)and so we made one up that fit our very limited intelligence.and when something happened that countered the first instance then we just made up another to explain that. and we provided actions and words to sit alongside these suppositions of ours and before we knew it we had ourselves a religion of some sort.and of course somewhere along the line we started to personify the deity/ies. and then at some stage the diety shifted from simply an image of ourselves to a divine being.

...
That, too. Gods were created by Man to explain the natural world. Whether it was Ra and his Chariot of Fire that rose and set every day... or Thor and his hammer controlling the weather of the Arctic... or Posiedon and ruled the sea, Man placed his image on the Gods, making them greater than himself (Man) because Man cannot do these things.
But, religion also produced law and punishment. Moses was also a law bearer... like Hammurabi. The Commandments are, basically, laws. The Bible is pretty specific about laws and punishments for violating those laws... such as the stoning to death of adulterers.
Again, it all comes down to who is interpreting the text. Is it good that we do not stone adulterers, even if instructed to do so by the Bible? Or is it good for some nations to follow the Bible's law and do as it says?
It all depends upon who is doing the interpretation. People.

catefrances · August 2012

Cosmo wrote:

catefrances wrote:

interesting... it is my opinion that the worshop of dieties evolved from a need to make sense of the world around us. we needed a reason for something happening(flood/pestilence/drought/whatever)and so we made one up that fit our very limited intelligence.and when something happened that countered the first instance then we just made up another to explain that. and we provided actions and words to sit alongside these suppositions of ours and before we knew it we had ourselves a religion of some sort.and of course somewhere along the line we started to personify the deity/ies. and then at some stage the diety shifted from simply an image of ourselves to a divine being.

...
That, too. Gods were created by Man to explain the natural world. Whether it was Ra and his Chariot of Fire that rose and set every day... or Thor and his hammer controlling the weather of the Arctic... or Posiedon and ruled the sea, Man placed his image on the Gods, making them greater than himself (Man) because Man cannot do these things.
But, religion also produced law and punishment. Moses was also a law bearer... like Hammurabi. The Commandments are, basically, laws. The Bible is pretty specific about laws and punishments for violating those laws... such as the stoning to death of adulterers.
Again, it all comes down to who is interpreting the text. Is it good that we do not stone adulterers, even if instructed to do so by the Bible? Or is it good for some nations to follow the Bible's law and do as it says?
It all depends upon who is doing the interpretation. People.

but we are not all christians.. so to stone adulterers based on biblical law is a breach of someones human rights at the least. we need secular laws for secular societies. oh and adultery is not against our law.

Cosmo · August 2012

catefrances wrote:

but we are not all christians.. so to stone adulterers based on biblical law is a breach of someones human rights at the least. we need secular laws for secular societies. oh and adultery is not against our law.

...
I know. I used the adulterers thing to illustrate the duality of religion, since religion is made from the mind of Man.
I agree with what you and Inlet both say... we don't want government to fuse with religion to make laws we must all obey. I also believe that we HAVE to have laws because it is in Man's nature to interpret what is good for the self... is good. Regardless of how evil it may be to others. It's not because Man is inherently evil... he is inherently selfish... just like every other animal on the planet who wishes to survive.

inlet13 · August 2012

Cosmo wrote:

inlet13 wrote:

The truth is, I think you're ever-so-slighly siding with one side up here in your comments.

...
No. I am right smack dab in the middle on this one. I will give the person who says he absolutely knows that God does NOT exist the same arguements that I would the person who says he knows God does exist. The Arguement on my part is the same for either side... they do NOT know, they may believe they know, but belief is not knowledge. Both persons are equally full of shit when they try to use the arguement about KNOWING the truth about God. And i will tell them both the same thing... in equal terms.

Ok, it just seemed like you were coming down hard on the religious side, and not touching the anti-religious side. That's all.

catefrances · August 2012

Cosmo wrote:

catefrances wrote:

but we are not all christians.. so to stone adulterers based on biblical law is a breach of someones human rights at the least. we need secular laws for secular societies. oh and adultery is not against our law.

...
I know. I used the adulterers thing to illustrate the duality of religion, since religion is made from the mind of Man.
I agree with what you and Inlet both say... we don't want government to fuse with religion to make laws we must all obey. I also believe that we HAVE to have laws because it is in Man's nature to interpret what is good for the self... is good. Regardless of how evil it may be to others. It's not because Man is inherently evil... he is inherently selfish... just like every other animal on the planet who wishes to survive.

you know i often wonder to how much degree man is actually a social animal. i know we live in these groups called society but were they meant to be as large as they are??? and if not, by doing so, have we unbalanced the apple cart and ourselves in the process.

Religion on the decline around the world

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