Whats going wrong with the world? More shootings

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  • pandorapandora Posts: 21,855
    PJ_Soul wrote:
    Okay, being real then - you were dismissing HFD's statements because he's Canadian. I was examining why there is no reason to do so.

    It's just ironic that you're making a point about assumptions, since that is your specialty - i'll leave it at that. ;).

    I understand the concept of supporting rights of others even if they don't affect me very well. I just don't think that's a good argument when it comes to guns, and simply find it surprising that people are so in support of mass gun ownership. It's that some people view easy gun ownership as a right at all is what seems strange to me.
    I think I just pointed out your assumption about Americans in my last post
    who's on first.... :lol:

    No you don't understand the concept at all... has nothing to do with affect or lack thereof.

    It is a perfect argument, we have the right, it's not strange, and the masses feel the need
    and want the guns. And they want to own them safely and responsibly...
    google if you need a definition there...Gun safety training.

    What seems more than strange to me is that anyone would think allowing only the bad guys
    to own guns, and they do and they will, would ever be ok with the good guys.
  • normnorm Posts: 31,146
    At least seven people were killed (including a shooter) at a Sikh temple in Wisconsin on Sunday. That’s 57 mass murders in 30 years.
    tumblr_m8apr9A3m91qat9xfo1_500.png
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,224
    edited August 2012
    pandora wrote:
    really? it is terrifying to you to have a good caring trained respectful person carrying a gun ...
    what about the bad guys ...is that not terrifying? :lol:

    I was speaking to your laws...
    don't care what laws Canadians choose to have but if you ban guns you ban
    safety training and that could effect some people all the way around.

    Better build some more prisons ...
    for the law abiding folk who decide they still want to own too.

    I think Americans pay attention to foreign matters
    it would be a derogatory generalization to say otherwise...

    hey I love the Canadian's Olympic female bathing suits, much prettier than the US....
    see I pay attention ;)
    Oh, yes, first I want to say that of course my statements about Americans not paying much attention to or caring about what's going on elsewhere is a generalization (hence the "not all but a lot" disclaimer). It is a fairly well-known American quality though - at least that's how non-americans see it. I don't mean to be derogatory; just saying what I perceive to be the truth. I think some Americans would agree that what I said is true for a good number of folks in the US. I don't think the concept of the US being rather US-centric is a new one for most. Just because I say something about America that isn't a compliment doesn't mean I'm being derogatory toward Americans. All nationalities have their strengths and weaknesses, and I hope we can mention them in the course of discussion without being accused of something untoward.

    All this gun safety trai king you speak of... is there a requirement to take gun safety lessons to own guns in the US?? I don't think so. If so, i've somehow never heard or read that anywhere. You seem to have an awful lot of faith in everyone who carries a weapon to be responsible and clear-headed citizens. I would say they are the exception, not the rule. I don't have a problem with well-trained, caring people who cangenerally be trusted to responsibly carry and use a gun. They're called police officers. I have zero faith in the general public being equally well-trained and responsible, let alone well-intentioned. There are just way too many idiots walking around, and no one is even checking safety training papers in gun stores, let alone whether or not the person is a moron, or, worse, crazy or evil. I don't get why you are acting like everyone with a legally concealed weapon is going to be a good guy or responsible??
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • redrockredrock Posts: 18,341
    norm wrote:
    At least seven people were killed (including a shooter) at a Sikh temple in Wisconsin on Sunday. That’s 57 mass murders in 30 years.
    What are the odds that the gunman was a 'responsible, law abiding' citizen that obtained his gun(s) legally?

    OK.. I may be jumping the gun here (pardon the pun) but looking back at other shootings, it's not a silly thing to assume....

    Or, I guess, one can say that if these peaceful sikhs in their temple were packing, they would have saved themselves and their loved ones in a shoot-out (with, of course, only the shooter killed).
  • pandorapandora Posts: 21,855
    redrock wrote:
    The root of the violence needs to be seriously addressed too. But it would seem that it's also a point that some would sort of shrug their shoulders at - it's engrained in 'our' culture - nothing much we can do about it (except arm ourselves more). One may think one can fight fire with fire and, whilst in the case of wildfires, burning a stretch of land purposely so 'new' fire can't catch on may seem to be a possible solution, the truth is that if there is the slightest little bit of grass (or whatever) left, the 'attacking' fire will continue. Same with violence.
    It's not engrained in our culture ....
    it is the devaluing of life.

    When two young men can go to the home of an 89 year old woman with the intent
    to do harm and worse...
    go without conscious, without compassion, have a plan and carry it out,
    and this is commonplace not rare we have a generation feeding on the lives of others.

    We have a culture that is allowing criminals power to do this.
    Gun laws help the criminals, they do not help the law abiding citizens.

    Miss Ruby fought back, like many are and this is the fire!
    She had a plan too, a plan not to be a victim.
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 42,720
    norm wrote:
    At least seven people were killed (including a shooter) at a Sikh temple in Wisconsin on Sunday. That’s 57 mass murders in 30 years.
    tumblr_m8apr9A3m91qat9xfo1_500.png


    http://www.motherjones.com/politics/201 ... map?page=1
    from the article .....
    Editor's note, 8/5/12: On Sunday morning a mass shooting at a Sikh temple near Milwaukee left at least six people dead.

    It's perhaps too easy to forget how many times this has happened. The horrific mass murder at a midnight screening of The Dark Knight Rises in Colorado on July 20 is the latest in an epidemic of such gun violence over the last three decades. Since 1982, there have been at least 56 mass murders* carried out with firearms across the country, with the killings unfolding in 30 states from Massachusetts to Hawaii. We've mapped them below, including details on the shooters' identities, the types of weapons they used, and the number of victims they injured and killed.

    Of the 132 guns possessed by the killers, more than three quarters were obtained legally. The arsenal included dozens of assault weapons and high-powered handguns. (See charts below.) Just as Jeffrey Weise used a .40-caliber Glock to massacre students in Red Lake, Minnesota, in 2005, so too did James Holmes when blasting away at his victims in a darkened movie theater.

    Half of the cases involved school or workplace shootings (11 and 17, respectively); the other 28 cases took place in locations including shopping malls, restaurants, government buildings, and military bases. Only one of the killers was a woman. (See Goleta, Calif., in 2006.) Explore the map for further details—we do not consider the map to be all-inclusive, but based on the criteria we used to identify mass murders, we believe that we've produced one of the most comprehensive rundowns available on this particular type of traumatic violence. (Mass murders represent only a sliver of America's overall gun violence.) For a timeline listing all the cases on the map, including photos of the killers, jump to page 2.
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    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • peacefrompaulpeacefrompaul Posts: 25,293
    PJ_Soul wrote:
    Oh, yes, first I want to say that of course my statements about Americans not paying much attention to or caring about what's going on elsewhere is a generalization (hence the "not all but a lot" disclaimer). It is a fairly well-known American quality though - at least that's how non-americans see it. I don't mean to be derogatory; just saying what I perceive to be the truth. I think some Americans would agree that what I said is true for a good number of folks in the US. I don't think the concept of the US being rather US-centric is a new one for most.

    All this gun safety trai king you speak of... is there a requirement to take gun safety lessons to own guns in the US?? I don't think so. You seem to have an awful lot of faith in everyone who carries a weapon to be responsible and clear-headed citizens. I would say they are the exception, not the rule. I don't have a problem with well-trained, caring people who cangenerally be trusted to responsibly carry and use a gun. They're called police officers. I have zero faith in the general public being equally well-trained and responsible, let alone well-intentioned. There are just way too many idiots walking around, and no one is even checking safety training papers in gun stores, let alone whether or not the person is a moron, or, worse, crazy or evil. I don't get why you are acting like everyone with a legally concealed weapon is going to be a good guy or responsible??

    No, you are right. Many have no idea what is going on AND many simply don't care. To be honest, the news is pretty crappy about telling us what is happening in the world... I recommend alternative news sources and making a Twitter account. I get first hand accounts of what's happening in many parts of the world. I hear people calling the Syrian rebels terrorists... I follow people that say otherwise... I follow people that are pro-Assad... I hear about mortars being used on innocent people, school busses shot up by government soldiers... Pro-Israel, Anti-Israel... I hear from Socialists, Statists, Liberals, Conservatives, Libertarians, Democrats, Republicans, Anarchists... I get to hear all of that information... I seriously recommend making a twitter and following as many people as you can, no, not Lebron James and Tom Cruise...

    I have a lot of faith in people to make the right decision. I guess I just don't like to live in fear... That goes with drugs, firearms, their money, etc. So, saying that a person is deemed sane, I have no problems with them owning firearms... Mandatory training? Not a bad idea, but, I certainly don't want to pay for it.
  • redrockredrock Posts: 18,341
    edited August 2012
    mickeyrat wrote:

    Of the 132 guns possessed by the killers, more than three quarters were obtained legally. The arsenal included dozens of assault weapons and high-powered handguns. (See charts below.) Just as Jeffrey Weise used a .40-caliber Glock to massacre students in Red Lake, Minnesota, in 2005, so too did James Holmes when blasting away at his victims in a darkened movie theater.
    Worth a highlight and a repeat. Obtained legally (which would have to be by 'responsible and law abiding citizens).
    Post edited by redrock on
  • dimitrispearljamdimitrispearljam Posts: 139,721
    so,for the moment guns are from protection,why need the police?
    why pay taxis for have police??buy 50 guns and ammo and u protect your self better..
    why to have airforce?
    want to protect the country??
    why not have an F-16c at your back yard?and a tanks and a navy carrier!!
    why we dont have an ER table at hour houses and give treatment?do surgeries alone...
    and firemen??they suck..
    buy an ax and a ladder from your local shop..

    and u can be a super hero...
    "...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
    "..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
    “..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,224
    Even the guns that criminals have illegally... pretty much all of those started off as legally purchased weapons. Every gun that is bought legally is at risk of being stolen or illegally sold off when the legal owner needs money and landing in the hands of criminals.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,224
    so,for the moment guns are from protection,why need the police?
    why pay taxis for have police??buy 50 guns and ammo and u protect your self better..
    why to have airforce?
    want to protect the country??
    why not have an F-16c at your back yard?and a tanks and a navy carrier!!
    why we dont have an ER table at hour houses and give treatment?do surgeries alone...
    and firemen??they suck..
    buy an ax and a ladder from your local shop..

    and u can be a super hero...
    :D You have a great way of putting things Dimi.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • peacefrompaulpeacefrompaul Posts: 25,293
    PJ_Soul wrote:
    Even the guns that criminals have illegally... pretty much all of those started off as legally purchased weapons. Every gun that is bought legally is at risk of being stolen or illegally sold off when the legal owner needs money and landing in the hands of criminals.

    Or they were stolen
  • comebackgirlcomebackgirl Posts: 9,885
    pandora wrote:

    I think that should answer your question...
    It doesn't answer my question. I wasn't referencing any of your statements about guns here. I was referring to the statement that people who are unprepared and trained and weak would be a victim of their own stupidity or someone else's. Those lines transitioned this beyond a debate on gun control
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    "I need your strength for me to be strong...I need your love to feel loved"
  • pandorapandora Posts: 21,855
    I was pleased to hear, locally, gun sales rose drastically after the Colorado shooting but so did the safety training courses which shows of course who is now arming themselves.

    Most legal gun owners want to be trained and trained well to protect themselves and others.

    The police are often not there when you need them ... google police response times
    different of course for different areas ...
    NYC 8 minutes....
    a lot can happen in 8 minutes.

    http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/crim ... 42QyL3AstJ

    Forcible rapes showed the steepest increase of any major crime, from 860 to 1,138 :wtf:
  • ZosoZoso Posts: 6,425
    pandora wrote:
    I was pleased to hear, locally, gun sales rose drastically after the Colorado shooting but so did the safety training courses which shows of course who is now arming themselves.

    Most legal gun owners want to be trained and trained well to protect themselves and others.

    The police are often not there when you need them ... google police response times
    different of course for different areas ...
    NYC 8 minutes....
    a lot can happen in 8 minutes.

    http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/crim ... 42QyL3AstJ

    Forcible rapes showed the steepest increase of any major crime, from 860 to 1,138 :wtf:

    I lived in australia for most of my life and your logic is kinda scary.. when in all other western countries if one mass murder occurs automatic weapons and gun laws tighen up... here it's like the more killings the more guns are bought hence the more chance of more shootings.. it doesn't make any sense!
    I'm just flying around the other side of the world to say I love you

    Sha la la la i'm in love with a jersey girl

    I love you forever and forever :)

    Adel 03 Melb 1 03 LA 2 06 Santa Barbara 06 Gorge 1 06 Gorge 2 06 Adel 1 06 Adel 2 06 Camden 1 08 Camden 2 08 Washington DC 08 Hartford 08
  • redrockredrock Posts: 18,341
    Zoso wrote:
    I lived in australia for most of my life and your logic is kinda scary...... .....it doesn't make any sense!

    Well, if you lived in the US and 'understood', it would make perfect sense... ;)
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 42,720
    redrock wrote:

    Well, if you lived in the US and 'understood', it would make perfect sense... ;)
    makes me glad I dont understand and I live here.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • redrockredrock Posts: 18,341
    mickeyrat wrote:
    makes me glad I dont understand and I live here.
    :mrgreen: Makes me glad that not all americans 'understand'.
  • pandorapandora Posts: 21,855
    It doesn't answer my question. I wasn't referencing any of your statements about guns here. I was referring to the statement that people who are unprepared and trained and weak would be a victim of their own stupidity or someone else's. Those lines transitioned this beyond a debate on gun control

    Is that what you think?

    I think being unprepared to protect oneself,
    untrained in whatever protective measures one chooses,
    and not having the forethought to be strong in a life and death situation
    could make someone a victim
    and after the fact they will very likely be kicking themselves for not handling it differently
    if in fact they are still alive to regret their apathy.

    I also included those with guns, illegal or legal who use a gun to protect or assault,
    under the same criteria.

    You think an assailant is hypothetical?
    You think being prepared is in training?

    I was taught from young on these simple principles of self preservation.

    And no I do not think all victims are stupid or weak...
    but I think you might have known that yes?

    I do think we need to stop being victims and fight fire with fire.
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 42,720
    where's the love? isnt that all you need? Was John and Ed lying? :?
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • pandorapandora Posts: 21,855
    Zoso wrote:

    I lived in australia for most of my life and your logic is kinda scary.. when in all other western countries if one mass murder occurs automatic weapons and gun laws tighen up... here it's like the more killings the more guns are bought hence the more chance of more shootings.. it doesn't make any sense!
    Mass murders will happen no matter how many gun laws are in place,
    even the Colorado shooter...
    he would have found a different method or the guns illegally.

    Gun laws only help the criminals, do nothing to stop crime, just the contrary.

    Now mental illness awareness will stop the mass shooting because in most all cases
    someone knew or suspected the shooter was capable of this action against humanity
    and did nothing to stop it.
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,224
    pandora wrote:

    Is that what you think?

    I think being unprepared to protect oneself,
    untrained in whatever protective measures one chooses,
    and not having the forethought to be strong in a life and death situation
    could make someone a victim
    and after the fact they will very likely be kicking themselves for not handling it differently
    if in fact they are still alive to regret their apathy.

    I also included those with guns, illegal or legal who use a gun to protect or assault,
    under the same criteria.

    You think an assailant is hypothetical?
    You think being prepared is in training?

    I was taught from young on these simple principles of self preservation.

    And no I do not think all victims are stupid or weak...
    but I think you might have known that yes?

    I do think we need to stop being victims and fight fire with fire.
    You said you don't own a gun Pandora. So I guess you're unprepared and weak too, just sitting back and willingly making yourself a victim. For someone who claims she chooses not to own a gun, your statements are kind of strange.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • comebackgirlcomebackgirl Posts: 9,885
    pandora wrote:

    Is that what you think?

    I think being unprepared to protect oneself,
    untrained in whatever protective measures one chooses,
    and not having the forethought to be strong in a life and death situation
    could make someone a victim
    and after the fact they will very likely be kicking themselves for not handling it differently
    if in fact they are still alive to regret their apathy.

    I also included those with guns, illegal or legal who use a gun to protect or assault,
    under the same criteria.

    You think an assailant is hypothetical?
    You think being prepared is in training?

    I was taught from young on these simple principles of self preservation.

    And no I do not think all victims are stupid or weak...
    but I think you might have known that yes?

    I do think we need to stop being victims and fight fire with fire.
    Yes, that's what I think. Your statements crossed the line from a gun control discussion to unnecessary victim blaming. That's why I said it. As I stated in subsequent posts, there is no room for victim blaming in this discussion. While I do not agree with your position on gun control, I respect that it is your position. However your statements about victim blaming are a true example of a lack of empathy and I was surprised to see them posted.

    Anyone can be a victim. It has nothing to do with preparedness, strength, intelligence or knowledge. Yes, there are steps that we can all take to make ourselves safer. I know that you believe one of those steps may be to possess a gun. While I don't agree, I think that there are steps we all take to make it less likely we'll be victimized (ie. locking our door at night, etc). Whether or not someone takes these steps reflects little on their character. The perpetrator, the person who chooses to violate another and to victimize them, should be the person bearing the responsibility for the crime.
    tumblr_mg4nc33pIX1s1mie8o1_400.gif

    "I need your strength for me to be strong...I need your love to feel loved"
  • ZosoZoso Posts: 6,425
    pandora wrote:
    Mass murders will happen no matter how many gun laws are in place,
    even the Colorado shooter...
    he would have found a different method or the guns illegally.

    Gun laws only help the criminals, do nothing to stop crime, just the contrary.

    Now mental illness awareness will stop the mass shooting because in most all cases
    someone knew or suspected the shooter was capable of this action against humanity
    and did nothing to stop it.

    agreed mental health awareness would be a good move also.. but it's not going to stop all mass shootings... strict gun laws in australia helped the rate of gun related murders by a LOT!

    In most cases if a person who is mentally ill or just plain has a personality disorder they will find a way to do the mass shooting if gun are so easy to obtain.. over the internet purchasing should be banned &^%$$ing ridiculous.
    I'm just flying around the other side of the world to say I love you

    Sha la la la i'm in love with a jersey girl

    I love you forever and forever :)

    Adel 03 Melb 1 03 LA 2 06 Santa Barbara 06 Gorge 1 06 Gorge 2 06 Adel 1 06 Adel 2 06 Camden 1 08 Camden 2 08 Washington DC 08 Hartford 08
  • redrockredrock Posts: 18,341
    edited August 2012
    pandora wrote:

    Gun laws only help the criminals, do nothing to stop crime, just the contrary.

    Personal opinion or fact? Any valid and reliable statistics to back this? Links?
    Post edited by redrock on
  • pandorapandora Posts: 21,855
    Zoso wrote:

    I lived in australia for most of my life and your logic is kinda scary.. when in all other western countries if one mass murder occurs automatic weapons and gun laws tighen up... here it's like the more killings the more guns are bought hence the more chance of more shootings.. it doesn't make any sense!

    The rapes don't make sense to me...

    If only half of those women were trained in personal gun use
    we could say bye to 550 a** holes ... those without compassion, empathy,
    value and respect for another human being
    worst part is ... are they out there raping more?

    And there are those who would say a woman should not be allowed to protect
    herself with a gun :fp: nope just lay down and take it....
  • pandorapandora Posts: 21,855
    redrock wrote:

    Personal opinion or fact? Any valid and reliable statistics to back this? Links?
    a quick google brought this that has some current statistics...
    but it is common sense for most people

    http://www.acorn-online.com/joomla15/fa ... crime.html

    I'll see what else I can dig up.

    Criminals will always have guns so there will always be crime but we can ...

    fight fire with fire
  • ZosoZoso Posts: 6,425
    pandora wrote:

    The rapes don't make sense to me...

    If only half of those women were trained in personal gun use
    we could say bye to 550 a** holes ... those without compassion, empathy,
    value and respect for another human being
    worst part is ... are they out there raping more?

    And there are those who would say a woman should not be allowed to protect
    herself with a gun :fp: nope just lay down and take it....

    no one says women should just take it... I don't think men or women should have guns.. sure self defense classes but rape is a little off topic here as it's entirely another crime all together.
    I'm just flying around the other side of the world to say I love you

    Sha la la la i'm in love with a jersey girl

    I love you forever and forever :)

    Adel 03 Melb 1 03 LA 2 06 Santa Barbara 06 Gorge 1 06 Gorge 2 06 Adel 1 06 Adel 2 06 Camden 1 08 Camden 2 08 Washington DC 08 Hartford 08
  • comebackgirlcomebackgirl Posts: 9,885
    pandora wrote:

    The rapes don't make sense to me...

    If only half of those women were trained in personal gun use
    we could say bye to 550 a** holes ... those without compassion, empathy,
    value and respect for another human being
    worst part is ... are they out there raping more?

    And there are those who would say a woman should not be allowed to protect
    herself with a gun :fp: nope just lay down and take it....
    considering that about 85% of sexual assaults are perpetrated by someone known to the victim, I'm not sure guns would be effective in stopping the assaults. Typically when a victim knows the perpetrator they are going to be less likely to use a weapon to stop the assault because they're going to be taken more by surprise and initially think that the assailant will respect their protests. They're also unlikely to shoot someone they know or care about in some way. About 90% of those assaults involve alcohol, so the victims may be unable to protect themselves, with or without a gun. We know that self-defense classes aren't very effective in these types of situations, so I doubt guns will be. The focus really needs to be on primary prevention programs and bystander intervention.
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    "I need your strength for me to be strong...I need your love to feel loved"
  • ZosoZoso Posts: 6,425
    pandora wrote:
    a quick google brought this that has some current statistics...
    but it is common sense for most people

    http://www.acorn-online.com/joomla15/fa ... crime.html

    I'll see what else I can dig up.

    Criminals will always have guns so there will always be crime but we can ...

    fight fire with fire

    thats the first lesson my kids are going to be taught 'fight fire with fire'.. they would grow up to be monsters or gun totting hill billies.
    I'm just flying around the other side of the world to say I love you

    Sha la la la i'm in love with a jersey girl

    I love you forever and forever :)

    Adel 03 Melb 1 03 LA 2 06 Santa Barbara 06 Gorge 1 06 Gorge 2 06 Adel 1 06 Adel 2 06 Camden 1 08 Camden 2 08 Washington DC 08 Hartford 08
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