Whats going wrong with the world? More shootings

PJ_Soul

dimitrispearljam wrote:

so,for the moment guns are from protection,why need the police?
why pay taxis for have police??buy 50 guns and ammo and u protect your self better..
why to have airforce?
want to protect the country??
why not have an F-16c at your back yard?and a tanks and a navy carrier!!
why we dont have an ER table at hour houses and give treatment?do surgeries alone...
and firemen??they suck..
buy an ax and a ladder from your local shop..

and u can be a super hero...

You have a great way of putting things Dimi.

peacefrompaul

PJ_Soul wrote:

Even the guns that criminals have illegally... pretty much all of those started off as legally purchased weapons. Every gun that is bought legally is at risk of being stolen or illegally sold off when the legal owner needs money and landing in the hands of criminals.

Or they were stolen

comebackgirl

pandora wrote:

comebackgirl wrote:

pandora wrote:

Some people are just stronger than others, braver, it is in their make up to take control
of situations, to be prepared, trained. We see these folks, we are thankful when they are there,
with a gun or without.

In the world of sheep these stand out. They will protect their neighbors and even
a stranger when needed, risking their own lives because they know this is the
right thing to do.

Others know they must be able to protect themselves and their loved ones if the
need arises. They are aware of the very personal dangers or circumstances they live in
and are prepared as they see fit.

Then there are some who are unprepared, untrained and weak ...
with a gun or without, they will be a victim when the time comes,
a victim of their own stupidity or of someone else's.

So people who are victimized are weak and stupid? Am I reading this last part correctly? Are we all supposed to be in training for a potential attack from some hypothetical assailant?

I think that should answer your question...

It doesn't answer my question. I wasn't referencing any of your statements about guns here. I was referring to the statement that people who are unprepared and trained and weak would be a victim of their own stupidity or someone else's. Those lines transitioned this beyond a debate on gun control

pandora

I was pleased to hear, locally, gun sales rose drastically after the Colorado shooting but so did the safety training courses which shows of course who is now arming themselves.

Most legal gun owners want to be trained and trained well to protect themselves and others.

The police are often not there when you need them ... google police response times
different of course for different areas ...
NYC 8 minutes....
a lot can happen in 8 minutes.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/crim ... 42QyL3AstJ

Forcible rapes showed the steepest increase of any major crime, from 860 to 1,138 :wtf:

Zoso

pandora wrote:

I was pleased to hear, locally, gun sales rose drastically after the Colorado shooting but so did the safety training courses which shows of course who is now arming themselves.

Most legal gun owners want to be trained and trained well to protect themselves and others.

The police are often not there when you need them ... google police response times
different of course for different areas ...
NYC 8 minutes....
a lot can happen in 8 minutes.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/crim ... 42QyL3AstJ

Forcible rapes showed the steepest increase of any major crime, from 860 to 1,138 :wtf:

I lived in australia for most of my life and your logic is kinda scary.. when in all other western countries if one mass murder occurs automatic weapons and gun laws tighen up... here it's like the more killings the more guns are bought hence the more chance of more shootings.. it doesn't make any sense!

redrock

Zoso wrote:

I lived in australia for most of my life and your logic is kinda scary...... .....it doesn't make any sense!

Well, if you lived in the US and 'understood', it would make perfect sense...

mickeyrat

redrock wrote:

Zoso wrote:

I lived in australia for most of my life and your logic is kinda scary...... .....it doesn't make any sense!

Well, if you lived in the US and 'understood', it would make perfect sense...

makes me glad I dont understand and I live here.

redrock

mickeyrat wrote:

redrock wrote:

Zoso wrote:

I lived in australia for most of my life and your logic is kinda scary...... .....it doesn't make any sense!

Well, if you lived in the US and 'understood', it would make perfect sense...

makes me glad I dont understand and I live here.

Makes me glad that not all americans 'understand'.

pandora

comebackgirl wrote:

pandora wrote:

comebackgirl wrote:

So people who are victimized are weak and stupid? Am I reading this last part correctly? Are we all supposed to be in training for a potential attack from some hypothetical assailant?

I think that should answer your question...

It doesn't answer my question. I wasn't referencing any of your statements about guns here. I was referring to the statement that people who are unprepared and trained and weak would be a victim of their own stupidity or someone else's. Those lines transitioned this beyond a debate on gun control

Is that what you think?

I think being unprepared to protect oneself,
untrained in whatever protective measures one chooses,
and not having the forethought to be strong in a life and death situation
could make someone a victim
and after the fact they will very likely be kicking themselves for not handling it differently
if in fact they are still alive to regret their apathy.

I also included those with guns, illegal or legal who use a gun to protect or assault,
under the same criteria.

You think an assailant is hypothetical?
You think being prepared is in training?

I was taught from young on these simple principles of self preservation.

And no I do not think all victims are stupid or weak...
but I think you might have known that yes?

I do think we need to stop being victims and fight fire with fire.

mickeyrat

where's the love? isnt that all you need? Was John and Ed lying? :?

pandora

Zoso wrote:

pandora wrote:

I was pleased to hear, locally, gun sales rose drastically after the Colorado shooting but so did the safety training courses which shows of course who is now arming themselves.

Most legal gun owners want to be trained and trained well to protect themselves and others.

The police are often not there when you need them ... google police response times
different of course for different areas ...
NYC 8 minutes....
a lot can happen in 8 minutes.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/crim ... 42QyL3AstJ

Forcible rapes showed the steepest increase of any major crime, from 860 to 1,138 :wtf:

I lived in australia for most of my life and your logic is kinda scary.. when in all other western countries if one mass murder occurs automatic weapons and gun laws tighen up... here it's like the more killings the more guns are bought hence the more chance of more shootings.. it doesn't make any sense!

Mass murders will happen no matter how many gun laws are in place,
even the Colorado shooter...
he would have found a different method or the guns illegally.

Gun laws only help the criminals, do nothing to stop crime, just the contrary.

Now mental illness awareness will stop the mass shooting because in most all cases
someone knew or suspected the shooter was capable of this action against humanity
and did nothing to stop it.

PJ_Soul

pandora wrote:

comebackgirl wrote:

pandora wrote:

I think that should answer your question...

It doesn't answer my question. I wasn't referencing any of your statements about guns here. I was referring to the statement that people who are unprepared and trained and weak would be a victim of their own stupidity or someone else's. Those lines transitioned this beyond a debate on gun control

Is that what you think?

I think being unprepared to protect oneself,
untrained in whatever protective measures one chooses,
and not having the forethought to be strong in a life and death situation
could make someone a victim
and after the fact they will very likely be kicking themselves for not handling it differently
if in fact they are still alive to regret their apathy.

I also included those with guns, illegal or legal who use a gun to protect or assault,
under the same criteria.

You think an assailant is hypothetical?
You think being prepared is in training?

I was taught from young on these simple principles of self preservation.

And no I do not think all victims are stupid or weak...
but I think you might have known that yes?

I do think we need to stop being victims and fight fire with fire.

You said you don't own a gun Pandora. So I guess you're unprepared and weak too, just sitting back and willingly making yourself a victim. For someone who claims she chooses not to own a gun, your statements are kind of strange.

comebackgirl

pandora wrote:

Is that what you think?

I think being unprepared to protect oneself,
untrained in whatever protective measures one chooses,
and not having the forethought to be strong in a life and death situation
could make someone a victim
and after the fact they will very likely be kicking themselves for not handling it differently
if in fact they are still alive to regret their apathy.

I also included those with guns, illegal or legal who use a gun to protect or assault,
under the same criteria.

You think an assailant is hypothetical?
You think being prepared is in training?

I was taught from young on these simple principles of self preservation.

And no I do not think all victims are stupid or weak...
but I think you might have known that yes?

I do think we need to stop being victims and fight fire with fire.

Yes, that's what I think. Your statements crossed the line from a gun control discussion to unnecessary victim blaming. That's why I said it. As I stated in subsequent posts, there is no room for victim blaming in this discussion. While I do not agree with your position on gun control, I respect that it is your position. However your statements about victim blaming are a true example of a lack of empathy and I was surprised to see them posted.

Anyone can be a victim. It has nothing to do with preparedness, strength, intelligence or knowledge. Yes, there are steps that we can all take to make ourselves safer. I know that you believe one of those steps may be to possess a gun. While I don't agree, I think that there are steps we all take to make it less likely we'll be victimized (ie. locking our door at night, etc). Whether or not someone takes these steps reflects little on their character. The perpetrator, the person who chooses to violate another and to victimize them, should be the person bearing the responsibility for the crime.

Zoso

pandora wrote:

Zoso wrote:

pandora wrote:

I was pleased to hear, locally, gun sales rose drastically after the Colorado shooting but so did the safety training courses which shows of course who is now arming themselves.

Most legal gun owners want to be trained and trained well to protect themselves and others.

The police are often not there when you need them ... google police response times
different of course for different areas ...
NYC 8 minutes....
a lot can happen in 8 minutes.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/crim ... 42QyL3AstJ

Forcible rapes showed the steepest increase of any major crime, from 860 to 1,138 :wtf:

I lived in australia for most of my life and your logic is kinda scary.. when in all other western countries if one mass murder occurs automatic weapons and gun laws tighen up... here it's like the more killings the more guns are bought hence the more chance of more shootings.. it doesn't make any sense!

Mass murders will happen no matter how many gun laws are in place,
even the Colorado shooter...
he would have found a different method or the guns illegally.

Gun laws only help the criminals, do nothing to stop crime, just the contrary.

Now mental illness awareness will stop the mass shooting because in most all cases
someone knew or suspected the shooter was capable of this action against humanity
and did nothing to stop it.

agreed mental health awareness would be a good move also.. but it's not going to stop all mass shootings... strict gun laws in australia helped the rate of gun related murders by a LOT!

In most cases if a person who is mentally ill or just plain has a personality disorder they will find a way to do the mass shooting if gun are so easy to obtain.. over the internet purchasing should be banned &^%$$ing ridiculous.

redrock

pandora wrote:

Gun laws only help the criminals, do nothing to stop crime, just the contrary.

Personal opinion or fact? Any valid and reliable statistics to back this? Links?

pandora

Zoso wrote:

pandora wrote:

Forcible rapes showed the steepest increase of any major crime, from 860 to 1,138 :wtf:

I lived in australia for most of my life and your logic is kinda scary.. when in all other western countries if one mass murder occurs automatic weapons and gun laws tighen up... here it's like the more killings the more guns are bought hence the more chance of more shootings.. it doesn't make any sense!

The rapes don't make sense to me...

If only half of those women were trained in personal gun use
we could say bye to 550 a** holes ... those without compassion, empathy,
value and respect for another human being
worst part is ... are they out there raping more?

And there are those who would say a woman should not be allowed to protect
herself with a gun :fp: nope just lay down and take it....

pandora

redrock wrote:

pandora wrote:

Gun laws only help the criminals, do nothing to stop crime, just the contrary.

Personal opinion or fact? Any valid and reliable statistics to back this? Links?

a quick google brought this that has some current statistics...
but it is common sense for most people

http://www.acorn-online.com/joomla15/fa ... crime.html

I'll see what else I can dig up.

Criminals will always have guns so there will always be crime but we can ...

fight fire with fire

Zoso

pandora wrote:

Zoso wrote:

pandora wrote:

Forcible rapes showed the steepest increase of any major crime, from 860 to 1,138 :wtf:

I lived in australia for most of my life and your logic is kinda scary.. when in all other western countries if one mass murder occurs automatic weapons and gun laws tighen up... here it's like the more killings the more guns are bought hence the more chance of more shootings.. it doesn't make any sense!

The rapes don't make sense to me...

If only half of those women were trained in personal gun use
we could say bye to 550 a** holes ... those without compassion, empathy,
value and respect for another human being
worst part is ... are they out there raping more?

And there are those who would say a woman should not be allowed to protect
herself with a gun :fp: nope just lay down and take it....

no one says women should just take it... I don't think men or women should have guns.. sure self defense classes but rape is a little off topic here as it's entirely another crime all together.

comebackgirl

pandora wrote:

Zoso wrote:

pandora wrote:

Forcible rapes showed the steepest increase of any major crime, from 860 to 1,138 :wtf:

I lived in australia for most of my life and your logic is kinda scary.. when in all other western countries if one mass murder occurs automatic weapons and gun laws tighen up... here it's like the more killings the more guns are bought hence the more chance of more shootings.. it doesn't make any sense!

The rapes don't make sense to me...

If only half of those women were trained in personal gun use
we could say bye to 550 a** holes ... those without compassion, empathy,
value and respect for another human being
worst part is ... are they out there raping more?

And there are those who would say a woman should not be allowed to protect
herself with a gun :fp: nope just lay down and take it....

considering that about 85% of sexual assaults are perpetrated by someone known to the victim, I'm not sure guns would be effective in stopping the assaults. Typically when a victim knows the perpetrator they are going to be less likely to use a weapon to stop the assault because they're going to be taken more by surprise and initially think that the assailant will respect their protests. They're also unlikely to shoot someone they know or care about in some way. About 90% of those assaults involve alcohol, so the victims may be unable to protect themselves, with or without a gun. We know that self-defense classes aren't very effective in these types of situations, so I doubt guns will be. The focus really needs to be on primary prevention programs and bystander intervention.

Zoso

pandora wrote:

redrock wrote:

pandora wrote:

Gun laws only help the criminals, do nothing to stop crime, just the contrary.

Personal opinion or fact? Any valid and reliable statistics to back this? Links?

a quick google brought this that has some current statistics...
but it is common sense for most people

http://www.acorn-online.com/joomla15/fa ... crime.html

I'll see what else I can dig up.

Criminals will always have guns so there will always be crime but we can ...

fight fire with fire

thats the first lesson my kids are going to be taught 'fight fire with fire'.. they would grow up to be monsters or gun totting hill billies.