Are Mormons Christian?

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  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    PJ_Soul wrote:
    It's a good point... Anyone can make any point if they start redefining what words mean to suit what they're trying to say. It is a very poor tactic in discussions though.
    No not redefined just googled and there was the definition

    my point is...
    my faith is based in fact, in life experience and gives me knowledge.

    Thats pretty easy to understand if one tries to use their faith as an analogy.
    Everyone has faith in something and it brings them knowledge.
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,759
    pandora wrote:
    PJ_Soul wrote:
    It's a good point... Anyone can make any point if they start redefining what words mean to suit what they're trying to say. It is a very poor tactic in discussions though.
    No not redefined just googled and there was the definition

    my point is...
    my faith is based in fact, in life experience and gives me knowledge.

    Thats pretty easy to understand if one tries to use their faith as an analogy.
    Everyone has faith in something and it brings them knowledge.
    I don't think so. I think knowledge reduces the need for faith. Faith comes in place of knowledge.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    More complete definition of faith:

    faith (feɪθ)

    — n
    1. strong or unshakeable belief in something, esp without proof or evidence[/b]
    2. a specific system of religious beliefs: the Jewish faith
    3. Christianity trust in God and in his actions and promises
    4. a conviction of the truth of certain doctrines of religion, esp when this is not based on reason[/b]
    5. complete confidence or trust in a person, remedy, etc
    6. any set of firmly held principles or beliefs
    7. allegiance or loyalty, as to a person or cause (esp in the phrases keep faith , break faith )
    8. bad faith insincerity or dishonesty
    9. good faith honesty or sincerity, as of intention in business (esp in the phrase in good faith )

    Even when one looks at certain words used in the definitions, eg 'confidence'/'trust' - they are all words describing feelings & beliefs, nothing tangible.


    Edit: No one is knocking the value/benefit of faith and belief. It's just asinine comparing it to knowledge
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    redrock wrote:
    More complete definition of faith:

    faith (feɪθ)

    — n

    6. any set of firmly held principles or beliefs

    Even when one looks at certain words used in the definitions, eg 'confidence'/'trust' - they are all words describing feelings & beliefs, nothing tangible.


    Edit: No one is knocking the value/benefit of faith and belief. It's just asinine comparing it to knowledge
    Hey you found my definition too! :D it was right there huh?
    What is tangible is the life experiences ... based in fact that bring faith.
    It is knowledge from experience and facts.

    That is so very basic to life.

    Maybe if you think about what you have faith in you can come to understand knowing
    as I am relating it to God.
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    PJ_Soul wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    PJ_Soul wrote:
    It's a good point... Anyone can make any point if they start redefining what words mean to suit what they're trying to say. It is a very poor tactic in discussions though.
    No not redefined just googled and there was the definition

    my point is...
    my faith is based in fact, in life experience and gives me knowledge.

    Thats pretty easy to understand if one tries to use their faith as an analogy.
    Everyone has faith in something and it brings them knowledge.
    I don't think so. I think knowledge reduces the need for faith. Faith comes in place of knowledge.
    For me the knowledge of God is faith.

    as in the definition ...

    any set of firmly held principles or beliefs
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    pandora wrote:
    Hey you found my definition too! :D it was right there huh?
    What is tangible is the life experiences ... based in fact that bring faith.
    It is knowledge from experience and facts.

    That is so very basic to life.

    Maybe if you think about what you have faith in you can come to understand knowing
    as I am relating it to God.

    :roll: Wow.... you haven't really read the whole post. Just picking out the same limited bit that suits your rhetoric.

    Where's norm's lil' pic when you need it? ;)
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    edited June 2012
    pandora wrote:
    PJ_Soul wrote:
    I don't think so. I think knowledge reduces the need for faith. Faith comes in place of knowledge.
    For me the knowledge of God is faith.

    as in the definition ...

    any set of firmly held principles or beliefs

    I guess you must have skimmed over it in my post. Maybe useful to repeat it (as you seem to find repetition useful)?

    As in the definition:

    ....strong or unshakeable belief in something, esp without proof or evidence

    ....a conviction of the truth of certain doctrines of religion, esp when this is not based on reason/
    Post edited by redrock on
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    redrock wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    Hey you found my definition too! :D it was right there huh?
    What is tangible is the life experiences ... based in fact that bring faith.
    It is knowledge from experience and facts.

    That is so very basic to life.

    Maybe if you think about what you have faith in you can come to understand knowing
    as I am relating it to God.

    :roll: Wow.... you haven't really read the whole post. Just picking out the same limited bit that suits your rhetoric.

    Where's norm's lil' pic when you need it? ;)
    I read it when I googled

    you didn't answer my question :? the exercise was to help you understand
    my knowledge of God, if you care to.

    Yes that is the definition that pertains to me. You have perhaps one that pertains to you.
  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    hedonist wrote:
    redrock wrote:
    Seems like this thread has taken 'one of those turns' again.
    Ya think? :mrgreen:

    Gotta say that the philosophical side of this is quite interesting.
    ...
    I know. I don't want this thing to de-evolve into the same old song that ends with a lock on it.
    The whole idea behind truth, leastwise, to me... is one of the great journey's of this life. The idea of pursuing something that is so great... yet, so unachievable... is what makes the journey interesting because you make contact with some very interesting people with really amazing thoughts.
    Well, for the most part you do. Most of the time, it is the same old rhetoric that you can find on channel 13 early Sunday morning.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    redrock wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    PJ_Soul wrote:
    I don't think so. I think knowledge reduces the need for faith. Faith comes in place of knowledge.
    For me the knowledge of God is faith.

    as in the definition ...

    any set of firmly held principles or beliefs

    I guess you must have skimmed over it in my post. Maybe useful to repeat it (as you seem to find repetition useful)?

    As in the definition:

    ....strong or unshakeable belief in something, esp without proof or evidence

    ....a conviction of the truth of certain doctrines of religion, esp when this is not based on reason/
    As I said I read that when I found the definitions but the one that pertains to my faith
    is number 6 ... my point faith is not always defined as without proof as you can see.
    Because my faith is based on fact and knowledge.
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    Cosmo wrote:
    hedonist wrote:
    redrock wrote:
    Seems like this thread has taken 'one of those turns' again.
    Ya think? :mrgreen:

    Gotta say that the philosophical side of this is quite interesting.
    ...
    I know. I don't want this thing to de-evolve into the same old song that ends with a lock on it.
    The whole idea behind truth, leastwise, to me... is one of the great journey's of this life. The idea of pursuing something that is so great... yet, so unachievable... is what makes the journey interesting because you make contact with some very interesting people with really amazing thoughts.
    Well, for the most part you do. Most of the time, it is the same old rhetoric that you can find on channel 13 early Sunday morning.
    Everyone has their own truth :fp:

    Even those who speak on channel 13 early Sunday morning.
    I respect that but your words say different about you.

    I thought you live by to each their own?
  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    Let' post some quotes:
    "I seen this stretch of bad road before... I ain't going down there, again."
    -cosmo
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    The 'exercise'?!?!? :?

    Furthermore, there was no question in your post. Even if there were, one cannot have a discussion as your basis for such 'debate' is based on erroneous conjecture.

    I don't pick and choose bits of what a word means. A definition of a word is just that - a whole. You can't just decide to ignore the parts that don't suit.

    Anyway... I'm not going to get bogged down in this. I just thought I would clarify a few basic points to maybe enable a grounded discussion. I have clarified, I have not enabled anything it would seem.
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    Cosmo wrote:
    Let' post some quotes:
    "I seen this stretch of bad road before... I ain't going down there, again."
    -cosmo
    :D
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    redrock wrote:
    The 'exercise'?!?!? :?

    Furthermore, there was no question in your post. Even if there were, one cannot have a discussion as your basis for such 'debate' is based on erroneous conjecture.

    I don't pick and choose bits of what a word means. A definition of a word is just that - a whole. You can't just decide to ignore the parts that don't suit.
    Clearly you don't understand...

    faith is not always defined as without proof ... period.

    For me the knowledge of God is faith.

    as in the definition ...

    any set of firmly held principles or beliefs
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,759
    Cosmo wrote:
    Let' post some quotes:
    "I seen this stretch of bad road before... I ain't going down there, again."
    -cosmo
    HA!
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    redrock wrote:
    Anyway... I'm not going to get bogged down in this. I just thought I would clarify a few basic points to maybe enable a grounded discussion. I have clarified, I have not enabled anything it would seem.
    A grounded discussion is that where someone agrees with you?

    Can't get much more grounded or clear in what my beliefs are and what brings me there.
    Funny you have not given a clue as to yours in this grounded discussion.

    Nor even tried to understand mine. Why? Is that not apart of a grounded discussion?
    I guess providing definitions that are contrary to my point
    is all you would like to add.


    And this where it began...
    Cosmo wrote:
    Belief is belief, knowledge is knowledge and cannot be substituted.


    But we see that belief and knowledge can and do go hand in hand
    not always exclusively divided, that to have faith is to know,
    and that indeed faith can be based in fact from life experiences.

    Again try the 'faith exercise' and feel you will see.
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    As I said:
    redrock wrote:
    Anyway... I'm not going to get bogged down in this. I just thought I would clarify a few basic points to maybe enable a grounded discussion. I have clarified, I have not enabled anything it would seem.

    I'll leave it to others if they wish.....
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,759
    Naa, I'm out too. I've been down this road too many times as well... I'm just not in the mood for my head exploding from frustration this afternoon. :lol:
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    Can’t let it frustrate you! Just need to find norm’s lil’ guy and bring him in this thread to relieve tension! :mrgreen:

    Anyway, it’s midnight here – maybe time for bed!

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