Are Mormons Christian?

pandora

PJ_Soul wrote:

pandora wrote:

it is not a must it is an IS

no control over what you know

:roll:

:fp:

PJ_Soul

pandora wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

pandora wrote:

it is not a must it is an IS

no control over what you know

:roll:

:fp:

:roll:

pandora

Cosmo wrote:

mikepegg44 wrote:

I don't really want to get in an argument about semantics with you, but you cannot know something without proof by definition. Proof is not located through looking at miracles and assigning a deity as the reason they occurred. feeling is believing maybe...but neither needed to know something. Facts either are or aren't...not believing them doesn't make them any less true. knowledge isn't based on faith. not trying to down play your belief system...I think belief systems are very important to individuals. But you cannot know the unknown through faith...you can believe something, you can feel something is true, but that doesn't necessarily make it so...that is the essence of faith to begin with...if the judeo-christian God revealed itself to all through fact it defeats the purpose of the free will granted to us to believe or not believe. Faith is believing in the absence of proof by definition. Philosophically, I think it actually demeans a person such as yourselves' faith to equate it to fact or "knowing."

...
You cut right to the essence of the matter. Belief is belief, knowledge is knowledge and cannot be substituted.
Example: If I truly believe I can fly and I jump off a cliff. Does that mean I can fly?

And if you believe you love someone is this knowledge?
Can you feel the knowledge?

Cosmo

PJ_Soul wrote:

hedonist wrote:

Why MUST we know, anyway? -- INCORRECT!!!

Cosmo wrote:

Why IS we know, anyway? -- CORRECT!!!

:roll:

...
As clear as water... from a radiator... of a '64 Rambler.

mikepegg44

pandora wrote:

I know I love my husband, I know that he loves me ... I feel this.
I know I have two children ... I see this. I have lived childbirth.
I know my loved ones left this world to journey on .... I feel this.
I know there is a God ... I see, I feel, I have lived this.

Those who do not believe can not believe that anyone knows God
for the extremely simple fact, they do not believe.

But they still have faith in something so they can understand then what it is to know.

yes, you can say you know something in the absence of fact if you would like to change the definition of the word.

faith is a belief in the absence of fact. nothing wrong with it, but you don't know... that is the point of having faith

pandora

Cosmo wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

hedonist wrote:

Why MUST we know, anyway? -- INCORRECT!!!

Cosmo wrote:

Why IS we know, anyway? -- CORRECT!!!

:roll:

...
As clear as water... from a radiator... of a '64 Rambler.

And if you believe you love someone is this knowledge?
Can you feel the knowledge? ...

It just IS you know it is correct

love me a Rambler but not as much as a Sport Fury

I've had great faith in my Chryslers ...
this from good life experiences ... a different analogy

mikepegg44

pandora wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

mikepegg44 wrote:

I don't really want to get in an argument about semantics with you, but you cannot know something without proof by definition. Proof is not located through looking at miracles and assigning a deity as the reason they occurred. feeling is believing maybe...but neither needed to know something. Facts either are or aren't...not believing them doesn't make them any less true. knowledge isn't based on faith. not trying to down play your belief system...I think belief systems are very important to individuals. But you cannot know the unknown through faith...you can believe something, you can feel something is true, but that doesn't necessarily make it so...that is the essence of faith to begin with...if the judeo-christian God revealed itself to all through fact it defeats the purpose of the free will granted to us to believe or not believe. Faith is believing in the absence of proof by definition. Philosophically, I think it actually demeans a person such as yourselves' faith to equate it to fact or "knowing."

...
You cut right to the essence of the matter. Belief is belief, knowledge is knowledge and cannot be substituted.
Example: If I truly believe I can fly and I jump off a cliff. Does that mean I can fly?

And if you believe you love someone is this knowledge?
Can you feel the knowledge?

no, love is a feeling inside your body that you have control over. You can think/feel you love someone, you can never call it knowledge. You can believe someone loves you, but you can never truly know for sure because it isn't tangibly measured. You can trust the words of others who profess love to you, but you can never know for sure...love is, at its heart, faith.

*** edited for content, should have hit preview

pandora

mikepegg44 wrote:

pandora wrote:

I know I love my husband, I know that he loves me ... I feel this.
I know I have two children ... I see this. I have lived childbirth.
I know my loved ones left this world to journey on .... I feel this.
I know there is a God ... I see, I feel, I have lived this.

Those who do not believe can not believe that anyone knows God
for the extremely simple fact, they do not believe.

But they still have faith in something so they can understand then what it is to know.

yes, you can say you know something in the absence of fact if you would like to change the definition of the word.

faith is a belief in the absence of fact. nothing wrong with it, but you don't know... that is the point of having faith

Perhaps you didn't understand my words here that you quoted.

What do you have faith in?
If you can identify that perhaps you can understand how I then know God.

Having faith in something is knowing. Having faith in love, in yourself, in your child,
etc. It is believing in them, it is knowing.
Knowing God is the same. And really it is not an absence of fact
it is based in fact and life experiences.

Like....

My PJ experiences have brought me great faith in them as individuals and as a group.
I can count on them to fulfill and bring me happiness. This is based on fact ...
I know and believe in them.

They are Rock Gods!

pandora

mikepegg44 wrote:

no, love is a feeling inside your body that you have control over. You can think/feel you love someone, you can never call it knowledge. You can believe someone loves you, but you can never truly know for sure because it isn't tangibly measured. You can trust the words of others who profess love to you, but you can never know for sure...love is, at its heart, faith.

*** edited for content, should have hit preview

We disagree ... I know love to be the highest knowledge.

And you have control over love? that is interesting, I do not.

I disagree also, one can know what is not tangible...
through fact and life experience.
One might think there are even things known through hypothesis.

redrock

Belief (faith) is based on perception. Knowledge is based on fact and evidence. Many, many erudite minds have 'pondered' this for centuries and it seems they all agree. There is even a whole branch of philosophy dealing with this. It's very interesting for those who wish to understand the difference between belief and knowledge.

One can think their beliefs are true but knowledge is not justified true beliefs.

Seems like this thread has taken 'one of those turns' again.

PJ_Soul

pandora wrote:

mikepegg44 wrote:

pandora wrote:

I know I love my husband, I know that he loves me ... I feel this.
I know I have two children ... I see this. I have lived childbirth.
I know my loved ones left this world to journey on .... I feel this.
I know there is a God ... I see, I feel, I have lived this.

Those who do not believe can not believe that anyone knows God
for the extremely simple fact, they do not believe.

But they still have faith in something so they can understand then what it is to know.

yes, you can say you know something in the absence of fact if you would like to change the definition of the word.

faith is a belief in the absence of fact. nothing wrong with it, but you don't know... that is the point of having faith

Perhaps you didn't understand my words here that you quoted.

What do you have faith in?
If you can identify that perhaps you can understand how I then know God.

Having faith in something is knowing. Having faith in love, in yourself, in your child,
etc. It is believing in them, it is knowing.
Knowing God is the same. And really it is not an absence of fact
it is based in fact and life experiences.

Like....

My PJ experiences have brought me great faith in them as individuals and as a group.
I can count on them to fulfill and bring me happiness. This is based on fact ...
I know and believe in them.

They are Rock Gods!

What you're trying to compare faith in God to is not actually comparable. Not even close. Totally different ballgame.

mikepegg44

pandora wrote:

mikepegg44 wrote:

pandora wrote:

I know I love my husband, I know that he loves me ... I feel this.
I know I have two children ... I see this. I have lived childbirth.
I know my loved ones left this world to journey on .... I feel this.
I know there is a God ... I see, I feel, I have lived this.

Those who do not believe can not believe that anyone knows God
for the extremely simple fact, they do not believe.

But they still have faith in something so they can understand then what it is to know.

yes, you can say you know something in the absence of fact if you would like to change the definition of the word.

faith is a belief in the absence of fact. nothing wrong with it, but you don't know... that is the point of having faith

Perhaps you didn't understand my words here that you quoted.

What do you have faith in?
If you can identify that perhaps you can understand how I then know God.

Having faith in something is knowing. Having faith in love, in yourself, in your child,
etc. It is believing in them, it is knowing.
Knowing God is the same. And really it is not an absence of fact
it is based in fact and life experiences.

Like....

My PJ experiences have brought me great faith in them as individuals and as a group.
I can count on them to fulfill and bring me happiness. This is based on fact ...
I know and believe in them.

They are Rock Gods!

people used to know that the earth was flat, that the sun revolved around it and that sorcerers could command an eclipse. They didn't know those things. they believed they did, but they didn't truly know them. Same with faith in God. You believe you know him, I am not debating that with you, what I am saying is that you cannot know something in absence of tangible fact. And fact isn't observation of acts that you attribute to God. Doesn't make it less real to you or to anyone else, belief systems and faith are the heart of religion. Again, if everyone knew God existed as a fact it would be impossible not to believe. The idea of free will in Christianity gives man the the choice of whether to have FAITH in the absence of knowledge or not. You choose to have faith, and you use examples in your life to strengthen that faith. I am in awe of the faith it takes to believe in God. I believe there is a God as well, although I would imagine mine is much different.

pandora

PJ_Soul wrote:

What you're trying to compare faith in God to is not actually comparable. Not even close. Totally different ballgame.

I am not comparing my faith and knowledge of God
to anything other than that it is based in fact and life experience.
I think of it more as an analogy.

hedonist

redrock wrote:

Seems like this thread has taken 'one of those turns' again.

Ya think?

Gotta say that the philosophical side of this is quite interesting.

mikepegg44

pandora wrote:

mikepegg44 wrote:

no, love is a feeling inside your body that you have control over. You can think/feel you love someone, you can never call it knowledge. You can believe someone loves you, but you can never truly know for sure because it isn't tangibly measured. You can trust the words of others who profess love to you, but you can never know for sure...love is, at its heart, faith.

*** edited for content, should have hit preview

We disagree ... I know love to be the highest knowledge.

And you have control over love? that is interesting, I do not.

I disagree also, one can know what is not tangible...
through fact and life experience.
One might think there are even things known through hypothesis.

Something is fact when it is tangible and measurable. Not sure what you are getting at...things aren't known through hypothesis. They are assumptions that are tested.

So you can know things through faith if you want to change definitions. That is all.

Everyone has control over love, some choose not to exercise it.

Here's to Glenlivet 18...I have faith that it will make me happier than this conversation, but I don't know if it will until the delicious nectar hits my lips. Maybe then I can start changing definitions to fit my argument too!!! Just playing with you Pandora.

PJ_Soul

mikepegg44 wrote:

pandora wrote:

mikepegg44 wrote:

no, love is a feeling inside your body that you have control over. You can think/feel you love someone, you can never call it knowledge. You can believe someone loves you, but you can never truly know for sure because it isn't tangibly measured. You can trust the words of others who profess love to you, but you can never know for sure...love is, at its heart, faith.

*** edited for content, should have hit preview

We disagree ... I know love to be the highest knowledge.

And you have control over love? that is interesting, I do not.

I disagree also, one can know what is not tangible...
through fact and life experience.
One might think there are even things known through hypothesis.

Something is fact when it is tangible and measurable. Not sure what you are getting at...things aren't known through hypothesis. They are assumptions that are tested.

So you can know things through faith if you want to change definitions. That is all.

Everyone has control over love, some choose not to exercise it.

Here's to Glenlivet 18...I have faith that it will make me happier than this conversation, but I don't know if it will until the delicious nectar hits my lips. Maybe then I can start changing definitions to fit my argument too!!! Just playing with you Pandora.

It's a good point... Anyone can make any point if they start redefining what words mean to suit what they're trying to say. It is a very poor tactic in discussions though.

redrock

hedonist wrote:

redrock wrote:

Seems like this thread has taken 'one of those turns' again.

Ya think?

Gotta say that the philosophical side of this is quite interesting.

Epistemology, it's called. If you're interested in philosophy and have a bit of a mind for it, it's a subject one can comprehend without being one of those 'learned' people. Not too 'mind boggling' but accessible.

Edit: Tie that in with "argumentum ad ignorantiam" (absence of evidence vs. evidence of absence) and things may be a bit clearer, enabling a more grounded discussion.

pandora

mikepegg44 wrote:

people used to know that the earth was flat, that the sun revolved around it and that sorcerers could command an eclipse. They didn't know those things. they believed they did, but they didn't truly know them. Same with faith in God. You believe you know him, I am not debating that with you, what I am saying is that you cannot know something in absence of tangible fact. And fact isn't observation of acts that you attribute to God. Doesn't make it less real to you or to anyone else, belief systems and faith are the heart of religion. Again, if everyone knew God existed as a fact it would be impossible not to believe. The idea of free will in Christianity gives man the the choice of whether to have FAITH in the absence of knowledge or not. You choose to have faith, and you use examples in your life to strengthen that faith. I am in awe of the faith it takes to believe in God. I believe there is a God as well, although I would imagine mine is much different.

I have fact from my experiences. I have knowledge from this.
This as real as any other knowledge.
I am not in awe of those who believe, God is a given.
I do admire dedication to religion though very much.
I might be more in wonder of those who do not believe.

Faith...
any set of firmly held principles or beliefs
It is not necessarily defined as in the absence of proof.

I believe those who do not believe, believe there is no proof, therefore there is no God...
this their firmly held belief.
So to some degree that is their faith, though they have no proof God does not exist.

pandora

mikepegg44 wrote:

pandora wrote:

mikepegg44 wrote:

no, love is a feeling inside your body that you have control over. You can think/feel you love someone, you can never call it knowledge. You can believe someone loves you, but you can never truly know for sure because it isn't tangibly measured. You can trust the words of others who profess love to you, but you can never know for sure...love is, at its heart, faith.

*** edited for content, should have hit preview

We disagree ... I know love to be the highest knowledge.

And you have control over love? that is interesting, I do not.

I disagree also, one can know what is not tangible...
through fact and life experience.
One might think there are even things known through hypothesis.

Something is fact when it is tangible and measurable. Not sure what you are getting at...things aren't known through hypothesis. They are assumptions that are tested.

So you can know things through faith if you want to change definitions. That is all.

Everyone has control over love, some choose not to exercise it.

Here's to Glenlivet 18...I have faith that it will make me happier than this conversation, but I don't know if it will until the delicious nectar hits my lips. Maybe then I can start changing definitions to fit my argument too!!! Just playing with you Pandora.

I like it when you are happy mikepegg44 I will google Glenlivet 18 and see what
this tasty treat is. I may be envious.
Happy Friday to you ....

PS
I can not choose to love or not. I think I'm not alone.

PPS
again faith is not necessarily defined as without proof....

PJ_Soul

pandora wrote:

mikepegg44 wrote:

people used to know that the earth was flat, that the sun revolved around it and that sorcerers could command an eclipse. They didn't know those things. they believed they did, but they didn't truly know them. Same with faith in God. You believe you know him, I am not debating that with you, what I am saying is that you cannot know something in absence of tangible fact. And fact isn't observation of acts that you attribute to God. Doesn't make it less real to you or to anyone else, belief systems and faith are the heart of religion. Again, if everyone knew God existed as a fact it would be impossible not to believe. The idea of free will in Christianity gives man the the choice of whether to have FAITH in the absence of knowledge or not. You choose to have faith, and you use examples in your life to strengthen that faith. I am in awe of the faith it takes to believe in God. I believe there is a God as well, although I would imagine mine is much different.

I have fact from my experiences. I have knowledge from this.
This as real as any other knowledge.
I am not in awe of those who believe, God is a given.
I do admire dedication to religion though very much.
I might be more in wonder of those who do not believe.

Faith...
any set of firmly held principles or beliefs
It is not necessarily defined as in the absence of proof.

I believe those who do not believe, believe there is no proof, therefore there is no God...
this their firmly held belief.
So to some degree that is their faith, though they have no proof God does not exist.

Emotions don't create facts. Also, how do you know that the way you interpret your experiences is the "right" way? Because it would have to be the "right" way for any of it to lead to "fact"... I mean, by your definition of fact, then delusional people are coming up with facts all the time... We should in fact encourage deranged people in their fantasies - everything they are thinking and feeling is fact, after all. How can we try to convince them otherwise? I just don't know why you insist on calling it fact. Why can't you just say you believe in what you believe? Frankly, calling it fact makes you (or anyone who speaks about their religious beliefs as fact) seem pompous.