theres no room for religion in politics. and if you make political decisions(for the nation) based on your religious views then you should not be in politics. and as you said. it matters to be honest and i think thats the biggest thing. oh and admitting when youre wrong.
I totally disagree with this. If you're a religious person and you have a set of values and morals that you try to follow, then you should absolutely make political decisions based upon those. There is no way you can be a TRULY religious person and not have it affect your decisions.
...
In my view... our moral compass is not directed by our religious beiefs... it is (or SHOULD) be directed by our humanity. Our values are founded upon our being... not our beliefs. We should be making our decisions based upon whether they are the right thing to do... not because we are being watched by Jesus or God or whatever our religion if founded upon. We should base our decisions and actions on what is right... not to appease anyone... Including deities.
I see the signs that are changed weekly in front of our churches ...
a current event, a thought, a value, a moral, this weeks lesson.
I see a hundred or more cars parked out front on a Saturday, Sunday or Wednesday.
I visualize hundreds listening, learning, being reminded ...
FEELING HUMANITY
the troubles and solutions, praying for better....
making it better
being together making it better one touch, one action, one lesson at a time.
People are not doing the right thing because they are being watched they choose to do right because they are taught.
This is religion, this is church, this is knowing God ...
individually this makes for a much better world.
There are so many anti-religious people on this board that really have no clue what religion is. It's pretty closed minded, really. Sure - there are SOME religions that do some of the things you say, but there are plenty of others that do not.
...
That the deal with religion... there isn't just one religion. If there was, it'd be simple... believe or not believe.
But, to sing the praises of religion (or to curse their imperfections) means you should consider ALL Religions in the same, equal light, shouldn't you. Simply, if you go on and on about how great Christianity... shouldn't you go on and on about the greatness of Islam? Judaism? Scientology?
And there is the problem. Religions, more specifically, people whom follow a religion, will only praise their own religion, whilst cursing the others.
That is not open-mindedness, is it?
...
This goes from the massive organized religions to the tiniest cult or person that believes in their own personal religion.
The only truth we know about God is... we simply don't know. We believe through some conduit, such as a religion... but, the truth is... we just don't know.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
The only truth we know about God is... we simply don't know. We believe through some conduit, such as a religion... but, the truth is... we just don't know.
I must say there are an awful lot knowing what can not be known then.
I would say it is more of a feeling factor.
To start we must ask ourselves what do we have faith in?
Faith is needed to achieve anything and everything we do.
It is the basis to determination, vision, dedication.
Do some only have faith with proof? With tangibles? in themselves? in others?
in fact?
While others have faith with feeling? an encompassing belief ... a knowing.
Thought this lovely quote, I keep close, fits here ...
it explains the knowing of Faith.
"Faith is the bird that feels the light when the dawn is still dark."
Rabindranath Tagore
In deep thought we see that is our nature, what each of us brought with us.
Feeling is believing is knowing.
I have been wondering in the decades to come if there will be a massive return
to God because it will appear the prophecies of religions are indeed coming true.
Unfortunately that might be based in fear not feeling.
The only truth we know about God is... we simply don't know. We believe through some conduit, such as a religion... but, the truth is... we just don't know.
Worth quoting - yet again. For my own pleasure.
Why MUST we know, anyway?
Reminds me of the line from the Simon & Garfunkel song - "the only truth I know is you".
The only truth we know about God is... we simply don't know. We believe through some conduit, such as a religion... but, the truth is... we just don't know.
I must say there are an awful lot knowing what can not be known then.
I would say it is more of a feeling factor.
To start we must ask ourselves what do we have faith in?
Faith is needed to achieve anything and everything we do.
It is the basis to determination, vision, dedication.
Do some only have faith with proof? With tangibles? in themselves? in others?
in fact?
While others have faith with feeling? an encompassing belief ... a knowing.
Thought this lovely quote, I keep close, fits here ...
it explains the knowing of Faith.
"Faith is the bird that feels the light when the dawn is still dark."
Rabindranath Tagore
In deep thought we see that is our nature, what each of us brought with us.
Feeling is believing is knowing.
I have been wondering in the decades to come if there will be a massive return
to God because it will appear the prophecies of religions are indeed coming true.
Unfortunately that might be based in fear not feeling.
Letting go of fear is the path to feeling.
I don't really want to get in an argument about semantics with you, but you cannot know something without proof by definition. Proof is not located through looking at miracles and assigning a deity as the reason they occurred. feeling is believing maybe...but neither needed to know something. Facts either are or aren't...not believing them doesn't make them any less true. knowledge isn't based on faith. not trying to down play your belief system...I think belief systems are very important to individuals. But you cannot know the unknown through faith...you can believe something, you can feel something is true, but that doesn't necessarily make it so...that is the essence of faith to begin with...if the judeo-christian God revealed itself to all through fact it defeats the purpose of the free will granted to us to believe or not believe. Faith is believing in the absence of proof by definition. Philosophically, I think it actually demeans a person such as yourselves' faith to equate it to fact or "knowing."
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
The only truth we know about God is... we simply don't know. We believe through some conduit, such as a religion... but, the truth is... we just don't know.
Worth quoting - yet again. For my own pleasure.
Why MUST we know, anyway?
Reminds me of the line from the Simon & Garfunkel song - "the only truth I know is you".
Yeah.
Hey, Hedo...
And you are correct, there isn't a need to know... it is a want to know.
People will seek out answers to questions which have no answers. For those questions, the only truthful answer is, 'I don't know'. Anyone can come up with any answer they want... which becomes 'truth' to them. But, if we all take a step out of ourselves and look at the answers in an objective light, we find... we just don't know.
With religion, knowledge is mixed up into belief and regurgitaed out as 'truth'. Knowledge and belief are two completely different thing. But, one can lead to the other. But, it still does not mean it is true.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I don't really want to get in an argument about semantics with you, but you cannot know something without proof by definition. Proof is not located through looking at miracles and assigning a deity as the reason they occurred. feeling is believing maybe...but neither needed to know something. Facts either are or aren't...not believing them doesn't make them any less true. knowledge isn't based on faith. not trying to down play your belief system...I think belief systems are very important to individuals. But you cannot know the unknown through faith...you can believe something, you can feel something is true, but that doesn't necessarily make it so...that is the essence of faith to begin with...if the judeo-christian God revealed itself to all through fact it defeats the purpose of the free will granted to us to believe or not believe. Faith is believing in the absence of proof by definition. Philosophically, I think it actually demeans a person such as yourselves' faith to equate it to fact or "knowing."
...
You cut right to the essence of the matter. Belief is belief, knowledge is knowledge and cannot be substituted.
Example: If I truly believe I can fly and I jump off a cliff. Does that mean I can fly?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
The only truth we know about God is... we simply don't know. We believe through some conduit, such as a religion... but, the truth is... we just don't know.
Worth quoting - yet again. For my own pleasure.
Why MUST we know, anyway?
Reminds me of the line from the Simon & Garfunkel song - "the only truth I know is you".
The only truth we know about God is... we simply don't know. We believe through some conduit, such as a religion... but, the truth is... we just don't know.
Worth quoting - yet again. For my own pleasure.
Why MUST we know, anyway?
Reminds me of the line from the Simon & Garfunkel song - "the only truth I know is you".
Yeah.
it is not a must it is an IS
no control over what you know
:roll:
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
The only truth we know about God is... we simply don't know. We believe through some conduit, such as a religion... but, the truth is... we just don't know.
I must say there are an awful lot knowing what can not be known then.
I would say it is more of a feeling factor.
To start we must ask ourselves what do we have faith in?
Faith is needed to achieve anything and everything we do.
It is the basis to determination, vision, dedication.
Do some only have faith with proof? With tangibles? in themselves? in others?
in fact?
While others have faith with feeling? an encompassing belief ... a knowing.
Thought this lovely quote, I keep close, fits here ...
it explains the knowing of Faith.
"Faith is the bird that feels the light when the dawn is still dark."
Rabindranath Tagore
In deep thought we see that is our nature, what each of us brought with us.
Feeling is believing is knowing.
I have been wondering in the decades to come if there will be a massive return
to God because it will appear the prophecies of religions are indeed coming true.
Unfortunately that might be based in fear not feeling.
Letting go of fear is the path to feeling.
I don't really want to get in an argument about semantics with you, but you cannot know something without proof by definition. Proof is not located through looking at miracles and assigning a deity as the reason they occurred. feeling is believing maybe...but neither needed to know something. Facts either are or aren't...not believing them doesn't make them any less true. knowledge isn't based on faith. not trying to down play your belief system...I think belief systems are very important to individuals. But you cannot know the unknown through faith...you can believe something, you can feel something is true, but that doesn't necessarily make it so...that is the essence of faith to begin with...if the judeo-christian God revealed itself to all through fact it defeats the purpose of the free will granted to us to believe or not believe. Faith is believing in the absence of proof by definition. Philosophically, I think it actually demeans a person such as yourselves' faith to equate it to fact or "knowing."
I know I love my husband, I know that he loves me ... I feel this.
I know I have two children ... I see this. I have lived childbirth.
I know my loved ones left this world to journey on .... I feel this.
I know there is a God ... I see, I feel, I have lived this.
Those who do not believe can not believe that anyone knows God
for the extremely simple fact, they do not believe.
But they still have faith in something so they can understand then what it is to know.
I don't really want to get in an argument about semantics with you, but you cannot know something without proof by definition. Proof is not located through looking at miracles and assigning a deity as the reason they occurred. feeling is believing maybe...but neither needed to know something. Facts either are or aren't...not believing them doesn't make them any less true. knowledge isn't based on faith. not trying to down play your belief system...I think belief systems are very important to individuals. But you cannot know the unknown through faith...you can believe something, you can feel something is true, but that doesn't necessarily make it so...that is the essence of faith to begin with...if the judeo-christian God revealed itself to all through fact it defeats the purpose of the free will granted to us to believe or not believe. Faith is believing in the absence of proof by definition. Philosophically, I think it actually demeans a person such as yourselves' faith to equate it to fact or "knowing."
...
You cut right to the essence of the matter. Belief is belief, knowledge is knowledge and cannot be substituted.
Example: If I truly believe I can fly and I jump off a cliff. Does that mean I can fly?
And if you believe you love someone is this knowledge?
Can you feel the knowledge?
I know I love my husband, I know that he loves me ... I feel this.
I know I have two children ... I see this. I have lived childbirth.
I know my loved ones left this world to journey on .... I feel this.
I know there is a God ... I see, I feel, I have lived this.
Those who do not believe can not believe that anyone knows God
for the extremely simple fact, they do not believe.
But they still have faith in something so they can understand then what it is to know.
yes, you can say you know something in the absence of fact if you would like to change the definition of the word.
faith is a belief in the absence of fact. nothing wrong with it, but you don't know... that is the point of having faith
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
I don't really want to get in an argument about semantics with you, but you cannot know something without proof by definition. Proof is not located through looking at miracles and assigning a deity as the reason they occurred. feeling is believing maybe...but neither needed to know something. Facts either are or aren't...not believing them doesn't make them any less true. knowledge isn't based on faith. not trying to down play your belief system...I think belief systems are very important to individuals. But you cannot know the unknown through faith...you can believe something, you can feel something is true, but that doesn't necessarily make it so...that is the essence of faith to begin with...if the judeo-christian God revealed itself to all through fact it defeats the purpose of the free will granted to us to believe or not believe. Faith is believing in the absence of proof by definition. Philosophically, I think it actually demeans a person such as yourselves' faith to equate it to fact or "knowing."
...
You cut right to the essence of the matter. Belief is belief, knowledge is knowledge and cannot be substituted.
Example: If I truly believe I can fly and I jump off a cliff. Does that mean I can fly?
And if you believe you love someone is this knowledge?
Can you feel the knowledge?
no, love is a feeling inside your body that you have control over. You can think/feel you love someone, you can never call it knowledge. You can believe someone loves you, but you can never truly know for sure because it isn't tangibly measured. You can trust the words of others who profess love to you, but you can never know for sure...love is, at its heart, faith.
*** edited for content, should have hit preview
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
I know I love my husband, I know that he loves me ... I feel this.
I know I have two children ... I see this. I have lived childbirth.
I know my loved ones left this world to journey on .... I feel this.
I know there is a God ... I see, I feel, I have lived this.
Those who do not believe can not believe that anyone knows God
for the extremely simple fact, they do not believe.
But they still have faith in something so they can understand then what it is to know.
yes, you can say you know something in the absence of fact if you would like to change the definition of the word.
faith is a belief in the absence of fact. nothing wrong with it, but you don't know... that is the point of having faith
Perhaps you didn't understand my words here that you quoted.
What do you have faith in?
If you can identify that perhaps you can understand how I then know God.
Having faith in something is knowing. Having faith in love, in yourself, in your child,
etc. It is believing in them, it is knowing.
Knowing God is the same. And really it is not an absence of fact
it is based in fact and life experiences.
Like....
My PJ experiences have brought me great faith in them as individuals and as a group.
I can count on them to fulfill and bring me happiness. This is based on fact ...
I know and believe in them.
no, love is a feeling inside your body that you have control over. You can think/feel you love someone, you can never call it knowledge. You can believe someone loves you, but you can never truly know for sure because it isn't tangibly measured. You can trust the words of others who profess love to you, but you can never know for sure...love is, at its heart, faith.
*** edited for content, should have hit preview
We disagree ... I know love to be the highest knowledge.
And you have control over love? that is interesting, I do not.
I disagree also, one can know what is not tangible...
through fact and life experience.
One might think there are even things known through hypothesis.
Belief (faith) is based on perception. Knowledge is based on fact and evidence. Many, many erudite minds have 'pondered' this for centuries and it seems they all agree. There is even a whole branch of philosophy dealing with this. It's very interesting for those who wish to understand the difference between belief and knowledge.
One can think their beliefs are true but knowledge is not justified true beliefs.
Seems like this thread has taken 'one of those turns' again.
I know I love my husband, I know that he loves me ... I feel this.
I know I have two children ... I see this. I have lived childbirth.
I know my loved ones left this world to journey on .... I feel this.
I know there is a God ... I see, I feel, I have lived this.
Those who do not believe can not believe that anyone knows God
for the extremely simple fact, they do not believe.
But they still have faith in something so they can understand then what it is to know.
yes, you can say you know something in the absence of fact if you would like to change the definition of the word.
faith is a belief in the absence of fact. nothing wrong with it, but you don't know... that is the point of having faith
Perhaps you didn't understand my words here that you quoted.
What do you have faith in?
If you can identify that perhaps you can understand how I then know God.
Having faith in something is knowing. Having faith in love, in yourself, in your child,
etc. It is believing in them, it is knowing.
Knowing God is the same. And really it is not an absence of fact
it is based in fact and life experiences.
Like....
My PJ experiences have brought me great faith in them as individuals and as a group.
I can count on them to fulfill and bring me happiness. This is based on fact ...
I know and believe in them.
They are Rock Gods!
What you're trying to compare faith in God to is not actually comparable. Not even close. Totally different ballgame.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I know I love my husband, I know that he loves me ... I feel this.
I know I have two children ... I see this. I have lived childbirth.
I know my loved ones left this world to journey on .... I feel this.
I know there is a God ... I see, I feel, I have lived this.
Those who do not believe can not believe that anyone knows God
for the extremely simple fact, they do not believe.
But they still have faith in something so they can understand then what it is to know.
yes, you can say you know something in the absence of fact if you would like to change the definition of the word.
faith is a belief in the absence of fact. nothing wrong with it, but you don't know... that is the point of having faith
Perhaps you didn't understand my words here that you quoted.
What do you have faith in?
If you can identify that perhaps you can understand how I then know God.
Having faith in something is knowing. Having faith in love, in yourself, in your child,
etc. It is believing in them, it is knowing.
Knowing God is the same. And really it is not an absence of fact
it is based in fact and life experiences.
Like....
My PJ experiences have brought me great faith in them as individuals and as a group.
I can count on them to fulfill and bring me happiness. This is based on fact ...
I know and believe in them.
They are Rock Gods!
people used to know that the earth was flat, that the sun revolved around it and that sorcerers could command an eclipse. They didn't know those things. they believed they did, but they didn't truly know them. Same with faith in God. You believe you know him, I am not debating that with you, what I am saying is that you cannot know something in absence of tangible fact. And fact isn't observation of acts that you attribute to God. Doesn't make it less real to you or to anyone else, belief systems and faith are the heart of religion. Again, if everyone knew God existed as a fact it would be impossible not to believe. The idea of free will in Christianity gives man the the choice of whether to have FAITH in the absence of knowledge or not. You choose to have faith, and you use examples in your life to strengthen that faith. I am in awe of the faith it takes to believe in God. I believe there is a God as well, although I would imagine mine is much different.
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
What you're trying to compare faith in God to is not actually comparable. Not even close. Totally different ballgame.
I am not comparing my faith and knowledge of God
to anything other than that it is based in fact and life experience.
I think of it more as an analogy.
no, love is a feeling inside your body that you have control over. You can think/feel you love someone, you can never call it knowledge. You can believe someone loves you, but you can never truly know for sure because it isn't tangibly measured. You can trust the words of others who profess love to you, but you can never know for sure...love is, at its heart, faith.
*** edited for content, should have hit preview
We disagree ... I know love to be the highest knowledge.
And you have control over love? that is interesting, I do not.
I disagree also, one can know what is not tangible...
through fact and life experience.
One might think there are even things known through hypothesis.
Something is fact when it is tangible and measurable. Not sure what you are getting at...things aren't known through hypothesis. They are assumptions that are tested.
So you can know things through faith if you want to change definitions. That is all.
Everyone has control over love, some choose not to exercise it.
Here's to Glenlivet 18...I have faith that it will make me happier than this conversation, but I don't know if it will until the delicious nectar hits my lips. Maybe then I can start changing definitions to fit my argument too!!! Just playing with you Pandora.
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
no, love is a feeling inside your body that you have control over. You can think/feel you love someone, you can never call it knowledge. You can believe someone loves you, but you can never truly know for sure because it isn't tangibly measured. You can trust the words of others who profess love to you, but you can never know for sure...love is, at its heart, faith.
*** edited for content, should have hit preview
We disagree ... I know love to be the highest knowledge.
And you have control over love? that is interesting, I do not.
I disagree also, one can know what is not tangible...
through fact and life experience.
One might think there are even things known through hypothesis.
Something is fact when it is tangible and measurable. Not sure what you are getting at...things aren't known through hypothesis. They are assumptions that are tested.
So you can know things through faith if you want to change definitions. That is all.
Everyone has control over love, some choose not to exercise it.
Here's to Glenlivet 18...I have faith that it will make me happier than this conversation, but I don't know if it will until the delicious nectar hits my lips. Maybe then I can start changing definitions to fit my argument too!!! Just playing with you Pandora.
It's a good point... Anyone can make any point if they start redefining what words mean to suit what they're trying to say. It is a very poor tactic in discussions though.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Seems like this thread has taken 'one of those turns' again.
Ya think?
Gotta say that the philosophical side of this is quite interesting.
Epistemology, it's called. If you're interested in philosophy and have a bit of a mind for it, it's a subject one can comprehend without being one of those 'learned' people. Not too 'mind boggling' but accessible.
Edit: Tie that in with "argumentum ad ignorantiam" (absence of evidence vs. evidence of absence) and things may be a bit clearer, enabling a more grounded discussion.
people used to know that the earth was flat, that the sun revolved around it and that sorcerers could command an eclipse. They didn't know those things. they believed they did, but they didn't truly know them. Same with faith in God. You believe you know him, I am not debating that with you, what I am saying is that you cannot know something in absence of tangible fact. And fact isn't observation of acts that you attribute to God. Doesn't make it less real to you or to anyone else, belief systems and faith are the heart of religion. Again, if everyone knew God existed as a fact it would be impossible not to believe. The idea of free will in Christianity gives man the the choice of whether to have FAITH in the absence of knowledge or not. You choose to have faith, and you use examples in your life to strengthen that faith. I am in awe of the faith it takes to believe in God. I believe there is a God as well, although I would imagine mine is much different.
I have fact from my experiences. I have knowledge from this.
This as real as any other knowledge.
I am not in awe of those who believe, God is a given.
I do admire dedication to religion though very much.
I might be more in wonder of those who do not believe.
Faith... any set of firmly held principles or beliefs
It is not necessarily defined as in the absence of proof.
I believe those who do not believe, believe there is no proof, therefore there is no God...
this their firmly held belief.
So to some degree that is their faith, though they have no proof God does not exist.
no, love is a feeling inside your body that you have control over. You can think/feel you love someone, you can never call it knowledge. You can believe someone loves you, but you can never truly know for sure because it isn't tangibly measured. You can trust the words of others who profess love to you, but you can never know for sure...love is, at its heart, faith.
*** edited for content, should have hit preview
We disagree ... I know love to be the highest knowledge.
And you have control over love? that is interesting, I do not.
I disagree also, one can know what is not tangible...
through fact and life experience.
One might think there are even things known through hypothesis.
Something is fact when it is tangible and measurable. Not sure what you are getting at...things aren't known through hypothesis. They are assumptions that are tested.
So you can know things through faith if you want to change definitions. That is all.
Everyone has control over love, some choose not to exercise it.
Here's to Glenlivet 18...I have faith that it will make me happier than this conversation, but I don't know if it will until the delicious nectar hits my lips. Maybe then I can start changing definitions to fit my argument too!!! Just playing with you Pandora.
I like it when you are happy mikepegg44 I will google Glenlivet 18 and see what
this tasty treat is. I may be envious.
Happy Friday to you ....
PS
I can not choose to love or not. I think I'm not alone.
PPS
again faith is not necessarily defined as without proof....
people used to know that the earth was flat, that the sun revolved around it and that sorcerers could command an eclipse. They didn't know those things. they believed they did, but they didn't truly know them. Same with faith in God. You believe you know him, I am not debating that with you, what I am saying is that you cannot know something in absence of tangible fact. And fact isn't observation of acts that you attribute to God. Doesn't make it less real to you or to anyone else, belief systems and faith are the heart of religion. Again, if everyone knew God existed as a fact it would be impossible not to believe. The idea of free will in Christianity gives man the the choice of whether to have FAITH in the absence of knowledge or not. You choose to have faith, and you use examples in your life to strengthen that faith. I am in awe of the faith it takes to believe in God. I believe there is a God as well, although I would imagine mine is much different.
I have fact from my experiences. I have knowledge from this.
This as real as any other knowledge.
I am not in awe of those who believe, God is a given.
I do admire dedication to religion though very much.
I might be more in wonder of those who do not believe.
Faith... any set of firmly held principles or beliefs
It is not necessarily defined as in the absence of proof.
I believe those who do not believe, believe there is no proof, therefore there is no God...
this their firmly held belief.
So to some degree that is their faith, though they have no proof God does not exist.
Emotions don't create facts. Also, how do you know that the way you interpret your experiences is the "right" way? Because it would have to be the "right" way for any of it to lead to "fact"... I mean, by your definition of fact, then delusional people are coming up with facts all the time... We should in fact encourage deranged people in their fantasies - everything they are thinking and feeling is fact, after all. How can we try to convince them otherwise? I just don't know why you insist on calling it fact. Why can't you just say you believe in what you believe? Frankly, calling it fact makes you (or anyone who speaks about their religious beliefs as fact) seem pompous.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Comments
a current event, a thought, a value, a moral, this weeks lesson.
I see a hundred or more cars parked out front on a Saturday, Sunday or Wednesday.
I visualize hundreds listening, learning, being reminded ...
FEELING HUMANITY
the troubles and solutions, praying for better....
making it better
being together making it better one touch, one action, one lesson at a time.
People are not doing the right thing because they are being watched
they choose to do right because they are taught.
This is religion, this is church, this is knowing God ...
individually this makes for a much better world.
Embrace Love.
That the deal with religion... there isn't just one religion. If there was, it'd be simple... believe or not believe.
But, to sing the praises of religion (or to curse their imperfections) means you should consider ALL Religions in the same, equal light, shouldn't you. Simply, if you go on and on about how great Christianity... shouldn't you go on and on about the greatness of Islam? Judaism? Scientology?
And there is the problem. Religions, more specifically, people whom follow a religion, will only praise their own religion, whilst cursing the others.
That is not open-mindedness, is it?
...
This goes from the massive organized religions to the tiniest cult or person that believes in their own personal religion.
The only truth we know about God is... we simply don't know. We believe through some conduit, such as a religion... but, the truth is... we just don't know.
Hail, Hail!!!
I must say there are an awful lot knowing what can not be known then.
I would say it is more of a feeling factor.
To start we must ask ourselves what do we have faith in?
Faith is needed to achieve anything and everything we do.
It is the basis to determination, vision, dedication.
Do some only have faith with proof? With tangibles? in themselves? in others?
in fact?
While others have faith with feeling? an encompassing belief ... a knowing.
Thought this lovely quote, I keep close, fits here ...
it explains the knowing of Faith.
"Faith is the bird that feels the light when the dawn is still dark."
Rabindranath Tagore
In deep thought we see that is our nature, what each of us brought with us.
Feeling is believing is knowing.
I have been wondering in the decades to come if there will be a massive return
to God because it will appear the prophecies of religions are indeed coming true.
Unfortunately that might be based in fear not feeling.
Letting go of fear is the path to feeling.
Worth quoting - yet again. For my own pleasure.
Why MUST we know, anyway?
Reminds me of the line from the Simon & Garfunkel song - "the only truth I know is you".
Yeah.
I don't really want to get in an argument about semantics with you, but you cannot know something without proof by definition. Proof is not located through looking at miracles and assigning a deity as the reason they occurred. feeling is believing maybe...but neither needed to know something. Facts either are or aren't...not believing them doesn't make them any less true. knowledge isn't based on faith. not trying to down play your belief system...I think belief systems are very important to individuals. But you cannot know the unknown through faith...you can believe something, you can feel something is true, but that doesn't necessarily make it so...that is the essence of faith to begin with...if the judeo-christian God revealed itself to all through fact it defeats the purpose of the free will granted to us to believe or not believe. Faith is believing in the absence of proof by definition. Philosophically, I think it actually demeans a person such as yourselves' faith to equate it to fact or "knowing."
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
And you are correct, there isn't a need to know... it is a want to know.
People will seek out answers to questions which have no answers. For those questions, the only truthful answer is, 'I don't know'. Anyone can come up with any answer they want... which becomes 'truth' to them. But, if we all take a step out of ourselves and look at the answers in an objective light, we find... we just don't know.
With religion, knowledge is mixed up into belief and regurgitaed out as 'truth'. Knowledge and belief are two completely different thing. But, one can lead to the other. But, it still does not mean it is true.
Hail, Hail!!!
You cut right to the essence of the matter. Belief is belief, knowledge is knowledge and cannot be substituted.
Example: If I truly believe I can fly and I jump off a cliff. Does that mean I can fly?
Hail, Hail!!!
no control over what you know
I know I have two children ... I see this. I have lived childbirth.
I know my loved ones left this world to journey on .... I feel this.
I know there is a God ... I see, I feel, I have lived this.
Those who do not believe can not believe that anyone knows God
for the extremely simple fact, they do not believe.
But they still have faith in something so they can understand then what it is to know.
Can you feel the knowledge?
As clear as water... from a radiator... of a '64 Rambler.
Hail, Hail!!!
yes, you can say you know something in the absence of fact if you would like to change the definition of the word.
faith is a belief in the absence of fact. nothing wrong with it, but you don't know... that is the point of having faith
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Can you feel the knowledge? ...
It just IS you know it is correct
love me a Rambler but not as much as a Sport Fury
I've had great faith in my Chryslers ...
this from good life experiences ... a different analogy
no, love is a feeling inside your body that you have control over. You can think/feel you love someone, you can never call it knowledge. You can believe someone loves you, but you can never truly know for sure because it isn't tangibly measured. You can trust the words of others who profess love to you, but you can never know for sure...love is, at its heart, faith.
*** edited for content, should have hit preview
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
What do you have faith in?
If you can identify that perhaps you can understand how I then know God.
Having faith in something is knowing. Having faith in love, in yourself, in your child,
etc. It is believing in them, it is knowing.
Knowing God is the same. And really it is not an absence of fact
it is based in fact and life experiences.
Like....
My PJ experiences have brought me great faith in them as individuals and as a group.
I can count on them to fulfill and bring me happiness. This is based on fact ...
I know and believe in them.
They are Rock Gods!
And you have control over love? that is interesting, I do not.
I disagree also, one can know what is not tangible...
through fact and life experience.
One might think there are even things known through hypothesis.
One can think their beliefs are true but knowledge is not justified true beliefs.
Seems like this thread has taken 'one of those turns' again.
people used to know that the earth was flat, that the sun revolved around it and that sorcerers could command an eclipse. They didn't know those things. they believed they did, but they didn't truly know them. Same with faith in God. You believe you know him, I am not debating that with you, what I am saying is that you cannot know something in absence of tangible fact. And fact isn't observation of acts that you attribute to God. Doesn't make it less real to you or to anyone else, belief systems and faith are the heart of religion. Again, if everyone knew God existed as a fact it would be impossible not to believe. The idea of free will in Christianity gives man the the choice of whether to have FAITH in the absence of knowledge or not. You choose to have faith, and you use examples in your life to strengthen that faith. I am in awe of the faith it takes to believe in God. I believe there is a God as well, although I would imagine mine is much different.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
to anything other than that it is based in fact and life experience.
I think of it more as an analogy.
Gotta say that the philosophical side of this is quite interesting.
Something is fact when it is tangible and measurable. Not sure what you are getting at...things aren't known through hypothesis. They are assumptions that are tested.
So you can know things through faith if you want to change definitions. That is all.
Everyone has control over love, some choose not to exercise it.
Here's to Glenlivet 18...I have faith that it will make me happier than this conversation, but I don't know if it will until the delicious nectar hits my lips. Maybe then I can start changing definitions to fit my argument too!!! Just playing with you Pandora.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Epistemology, it's called. If you're interested in philosophy and have a bit of a mind for it, it's a subject one can comprehend without being one of those 'learned' people. Not too 'mind boggling' but accessible.
Edit: Tie that in with "argumentum ad ignorantiam" (absence of evidence vs. evidence of absence) and things may be a bit clearer, enabling a more grounded discussion.
I have fact from my experiences. I have knowledge from this.
This as real as any other knowledge.
I am not in awe of those who believe, God is a given.
I do admire dedication to religion though very much.
I might be more in wonder of those who do not believe.
Faith...
any set of firmly held principles or beliefs
It is not necessarily defined as in the absence of proof.
I believe those who do not believe, believe there is no proof, therefore there is no God...
this their firmly held belief.
So to some degree that is their faith, though they have no proof God does not exist.
this tasty treat is. I may be envious.
Happy Friday to you ....
PS
I can not choose to love or not. I think I'm not alone.
PPS
again faith is not necessarily defined as without proof....