It's a good point... Anyone can make any point if they start redefining what words mean to suit what they're trying to say. It is a very poor tactic in discussions though.
No not redefined just googled and there was the definition
my point is...
my faith is based in fact, in life experience and gives me knowledge.
Thats pretty easy to understand if one tries to use their faith as an analogy.
Everyone has faith in something and it brings them knowledge.
It's a good point... Anyone can make any point if they start redefining what words mean to suit what they're trying to say. It is a very poor tactic in discussions though.
No not redefined just googled and there was the definition
my point is...
my faith is based in fact, in life experience and gives me knowledge.
Thats pretty easy to understand if one tries to use their faith as an analogy.
Everyone has faith in something and it brings them knowledge.
I don't think so. I think knowledge reduces the need for faith. Faith comes in place of knowledge.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
— n
1. strong or unshakeable belief in something, esp without proof or evidence[/b]
2. a specific system of religious beliefs: the Jewish faith
3. Christianity trust in God and in his actions and promises
4. a conviction of the truth of certain doctrines of religion, esp when this is not based on reason[/b]
5. complete confidence or trust in a person, remedy, etc
6. any set of firmly held principles or beliefs
7. allegiance or loyalty, as to a person or cause (esp in the phrases keep faith , break faith )
8. bad faith insincerity or dishonesty
9. good faith honesty or sincerity, as of intention in business (esp in the phrase in good faith )
Even when one looks at certain words used in the definitions, eg 'confidence'/'trust' - they are all words describing feelings & beliefs, nothing tangible.
Edit: No one is knocking the value/benefit of faith and belief. It's just asinine comparing it to knowledge
Even when one looks at certain words used in the definitions, eg 'confidence'/'trust' - they are all words describing feelings & beliefs, nothing tangible.
Edit: No one is knocking the value/benefit of faith and belief. It's just asinine comparing it to knowledge
Hey you found my definition too! it was right there huh?
What is tangible is the life experiences ... based in fact that bring faith.
It is knowledge from experience and facts.
That is so very basic to life.
Maybe if you think about what you have faith in you can come to understand knowing
as I am relating it to God.
It's a good point... Anyone can make any point if they start redefining what words mean to suit what they're trying to say. It is a very poor tactic in discussions though.
No not redefined just googled and there was the definition
my point is...
my faith is based in fact, in life experience and gives me knowledge.
Thats pretty easy to understand if one tries to use their faith as an analogy.
Everyone has faith in something and it brings them knowledge.
I don't think so. I think knowledge reduces the need for faith. Faith comes in place of knowledge.
Hey you found my definition too! it was right there huh?
What is tangible is the life experiences ... based in fact that bring faith.
It is knowledge from experience and facts.
That is so very basic to life.
Maybe if you think about what you have faith in you can come to understand knowing
as I am relating it to God.
:roll: Wow.... you haven't really read the whole post. Just picking out the same limited bit that suits your rhetoric.
Hey you found my definition too! it was right there huh?
What is tangible is the life experiences ... based in fact that bring faith.
It is knowledge from experience and facts.
That is so very basic to life.
Maybe if you think about what you have faith in you can come to understand knowing
as I am relating it to God.
:roll: Wow.... you haven't really read the whole post. Just picking out the same limited bit that suits your rhetoric.
Where's norm's lil' pic when you need it?
I read it when I googled
you didn't answer my question :? the exercise was to help you understand
my knowledge of God, if you care to.
Yes that is the definition that pertains to me. You have perhaps one that pertains to you.
Seems like this thread has taken 'one of those turns' again.
Ya think?
Gotta say that the philosophical side of this is quite interesting.
...
I know. I don't want this thing to de-evolve into the same old song that ends with a lock on it.
The whole idea behind truth, leastwise, to me... is one of the great journey's of this life. The idea of pursuing something that is so great... yet, so unachievable... is what makes the journey interesting because you make contact with some very interesting people with really amazing thoughts.
Well, for the most part you do. Most of the time, it is the same old rhetoric that you can find on channel 13 early Sunday morning.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I don't think so. I think knowledge reduces the need for faith. Faith comes in place of knowledge.
For me the knowledge of God is faith.
as in the definition ...
any set of firmly held principles or beliefs
I guess you must have skimmed over it in my post. Maybe useful to repeat it (as you seem to find repetition useful)?
As in the definition:
....strong or unshakeable belief in something, esp without proof or evidence
....a conviction of the truth of certain doctrines of religion, esp when this is not based on reason/
As I said I read that when I found the definitions but the one that pertains to my faith
is number 6 ... my point faith is not always defined as without proof as you can see.
Because my faith is based on fact and knowledge.
Seems like this thread has taken 'one of those turns' again.
Ya think?
Gotta say that the philosophical side of this is quite interesting.
...
I know. I don't want this thing to de-evolve into the same old song that ends with a lock on it.
The whole idea behind truth, leastwise, to me... is one of the great journey's of this life. The idea of pursuing something that is so great... yet, so unachievable... is what makes the journey interesting because you make contact with some very interesting people with really amazing thoughts.
Well, for the most part you do. Most of the time, it is the same old rhetoric that you can find on channel 13 early Sunday morning.
Everyone has their own truth :fp:
Even those who speak on channel 13 early Sunday morning.
I respect that but your words say different about you.
Furthermore, there was no question in your post. Even if there were, one cannot have a discussion as your basis for such 'debate' is based on erroneous conjecture.
I don't pick and choose bits of what a word means. A definition of a word is just that - a whole. You can't just decide to ignore the parts that don't suit.
Anyway... I'm not going to get bogged down in this. I just thought I would clarify a few basic points to maybe enable a grounded discussion. I have clarified, I have not enabled anything it would seem.
Furthermore, there was no question in your post. Even if there were, one cannot have a discussion as your basis for such 'debate' is based on erroneous conjecture.
I don't pick and choose bits of what a word means. A definition of a word is just that - a whole. You can't just decide to ignore the parts that don't suit.
Clearly you don't understand...
faith is not always defined as without proof ... period.
Anyway... I'm not going to get bogged down in this. I just thought I would clarify a few basic points to maybe enable a grounded discussion. I have clarified, I have not enabled anything it would seem.
A grounded discussion is that where someone agrees with you?
Can't get much more grounded or clear in what my beliefs are and what brings me there.
Funny you have not given a clue as to yours in this grounded discussion.
Nor even tried to understand mine. Why? Is that not apart of a grounded discussion?
I guess providing definitions that are contrary to my point
is all you would like to add.
Belief is belief, knowledge is knowledge and cannot be substituted.
But we see that belief and knowledge can and do go hand in hand
not always exclusively divided, that to have faith is to know,
and that indeed faith can be based in fact from life experiences.
Again try the 'faith exercise' and feel you will see.
Anyway... I'm not going to get bogged down in this. I just thought I would clarify a few basic points to maybe enable a grounded discussion. I have clarified, I have not enabled anything it would seem.
A comparison of believers. I have enjoyed what I have learned.
I also feel even those who do not believe have faith in something and can learn
to understand knowing God through whatever faith they have tangible or otherwise.
I believe those who do not believe, believe there is no proof, therefore there is no God... this their firmly held belief.
So to some degree that is their faith, though they have no proof God does not exist.
Perhaps their life experiences have brought facts to them that support this belief.
Back to the lecture at hand.
The question on the floor is... Are Mormons Christians?
The answer is... Does it matter?
I just know that there is something weird about Mormons. The part I'm troubled by is their exclusionist nature.
Christians are SUPPOSED to be accepting and generous of spirit. But Mormons exile. If they decide that the faith isn't for them everyone shuns them. Even their families. I knew some Mormons, and I was good friends with a girl whose immediate family left the church. And that was it. None of their friends or family would ever speak to them again. Not even her grandparents. The whole community that they'd known all their lives would have no contact with them. That doesn't seem very Christian to me.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Gotta say that despite at times being somewhat circular, this has been a thought-provoking thread.
In no way do I mean to belittle the sincerity with which the original poster asked his question...but you know, I think this is it, Cosmo - when all is said and done, it really doesn't matter.
Gotta say that despite at times being somewhat circular, this has been a thought-provoking thread.
In no way do I mean to belittle the sincerity with which the original poster asked his question...but you know, I think this is it, Cosmo - when all is said and done, it really doesn't matter.
...
Yeah. This thing cropped up because of Mitt Romney. Personally, I don't care if he is a Mormon or a Christian or a Catholic, Jew, Muslim or Scientologist.
All I care about is if he is a shithead that will cater to his Wall Street cronie-buds and believes 'Trickle-down' means pissing off the penthouse balcony onto us middle-classers.
...
And i agree... I love the philosophic debates about the the natural world, the physical Universe, abstract thought and all that crap. It can be both thought provking... but, also, mind-numbing... depending on which road we choose to take (or not take).
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Comments
my point is...
my faith is based in fact, in life experience and gives me knowledge.
Thats pretty easy to understand if one tries to use their faith as an analogy.
Everyone has faith in something and it brings them knowledge.
faith (feɪθ)
— n
1. strong or unshakeable belief in something, esp without proof or evidence[/b]
2. a specific system of religious beliefs: the Jewish faith
3. Christianity trust in God and in his actions and promises
4. a conviction of the truth of certain doctrines of religion, esp when this is not based on reason[/b]
5. complete confidence or trust in a person, remedy, etc
6. any set of firmly held principles or beliefs
7. allegiance or loyalty, as to a person or cause (esp in the phrases keep faith , break faith )
8. bad faith insincerity or dishonesty
9. good faith honesty or sincerity, as of intention in business (esp in the phrase in good faith )
Even when one looks at certain words used in the definitions, eg 'confidence'/'trust' - they are all words describing feelings & beliefs, nothing tangible.
Edit: No one is knocking the value/benefit of faith and belief. It's just asinine comparing it to knowledge
What is tangible is the life experiences ... based in fact that bring faith.
It is knowledge from experience and facts.
That is so very basic to life.
Maybe if you think about what you have faith in you can come to understand knowing
as I am relating it to God.
as in the definition ...
any set of firmly held principles or beliefs
:roll: Wow.... you haven't really read the whole post. Just picking out the same limited bit that suits your rhetoric.
Where's norm's lil' pic when you need it?
I guess you must have skimmed over it in my post. Maybe useful to repeat it (as you seem to find repetition useful)?
As in the definition:
....strong or unshakeable belief in something, esp without proof or evidence
....a conviction of the truth of certain doctrines of religion, esp when this is not based on reason/
you didn't answer my question :? the exercise was to help you understand
my knowledge of God, if you care to.
Yes that is the definition that pertains to me. You have perhaps one that pertains to you.
I know. I don't want this thing to de-evolve into the same old song that ends with a lock on it.
The whole idea behind truth, leastwise, to me... is one of the great journey's of this life. The idea of pursuing something that is so great... yet, so unachievable... is what makes the journey interesting because you make contact with some very interesting people with really amazing thoughts.
Well, for the most part you do. Most of the time, it is the same old rhetoric that you can find on channel 13 early Sunday morning.
Hail, Hail!!!
is number 6 ... my point faith is not always defined as without proof as you can see.
Because my faith is based on fact and knowledge.
Even those who speak on channel 13 early Sunday morning.
I respect that but your words say different about you.
I thought you live by to each their own?
"I seen this stretch of bad road before... I ain't going down there, again."
-cosmo
Hail, Hail!!!
Furthermore, there was no question in your post. Even if there were, one cannot have a discussion as your basis for such 'debate' is based on erroneous conjecture.
I don't pick and choose bits of what a word means. A definition of a word is just that - a whole. You can't just decide to ignore the parts that don't suit.
Anyway... I'm not going to get bogged down in this. I just thought I would clarify a few basic points to maybe enable a grounded discussion. I have clarified, I have not enabled anything it would seem.
faith is not always defined as without proof ... period.
For me the knowledge of God is faith.
as in the definition ...
any set of firmly held principles or beliefs
Can't get much more grounded or clear in what my beliefs are and what brings me there.
Funny you have not given a clue as to yours in this grounded discussion.
Nor even tried to understand mine. Why? Is that not apart of a grounded discussion?
I guess providing definitions that are contrary to my point
is all you would like to add.
And this where it began...
But we see that belief and knowledge can and do go hand in hand
not always exclusively divided, that to have faith is to know,
and that indeed faith can be based in fact from life experiences.
Again try the 'faith exercise' and feel you will see.
I'll leave it to others if they wish.....
Anyway, it’s midnight here – maybe time for bed!
A comparison of believers. I have enjoyed what I have learned.
I also feel even those who do not believe have faith in something and can learn
to understand knowing God through whatever faith they have tangible or otherwise.
I believe those who do not believe, believe there is no proof, therefore there is no God...
this their firmly held belief.
So to some degree that is their faith, though they have no proof God does not exist.
Perhaps their life experiences have brought facts to them that support this belief.
The question on the floor is... Are Mormons Christians?
The answer is... Does it matter?
Hail, Hail!!!
Christians are SUPPOSED to be accepting and generous of spirit. But Mormons exile. If they decide that the faith isn't for them everyone shuns them. Even their families. I knew some Mormons, and I was good friends with a girl whose immediate family left the church. And that was it. None of their friends or family would ever speak to them again. Not even her grandparents. The whole community that they'd known all their lives would have no contact with them. That doesn't seem very Christian to me.
In no way do I mean to belittle the sincerity with which the original poster asked his question...but you know, I think this is it, Cosmo - when all is said and done, it really doesn't matter.
Yeah. This thing cropped up because of Mitt Romney. Personally, I don't care if he is a Mormon or a Christian or a Catholic, Jew, Muslim or Scientologist.
All I care about is if he is a shithead that will cater to his Wall Street cronie-buds and believes 'Trickle-down' means pissing off the penthouse balcony onto us middle-classers.
...
And i agree... I love the philosophic debates about the the natural world, the physical Universe, abstract thought and all that crap. It can be both thought provking... but, also, mind-numbing... depending on which road we choose to take (or not take).
Hail, Hail!!!
BOS-9/28/04,9/29/04,6/28/08,6/30/08, 9/5/16, 9/7/16, 9/2/18
MTL-9/15/05, OTT-9/16/05
PHL-5/27/06,5/28/06,10/30/09,10/31/09
CHI-8/2/07,8/5/07,8/23/09,8/24/09
HTFD-6/27/08
ATX-10/4/09, 10/12/14
KC-5/3/2010,STL-5/4/2010
Bridge School-10/23/2010,10/24/2010
PJ20-9/3/2011,9/4/2011
OKC-11/16/13
SEA-12/6/13
TUL-10/8/14
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/12/us/di ... wanted=all
"Mormons Building Bridges"