i got the point. you know a mormon person you like. doesn't change the fact the the basic tenets of mormonism are totally fucked. i know a racist prick who i am forced to love, doesn't mean the basic tenets of his beliefs aren't fucked.
and of course mormons are nice. they are trained to be that way.
i got the point. you know a mormon person you like. doesn't change the fact the the basic tenets of mormonism are totally fucked. i know a racist prick who i am forced to love, doesn't mean the basic tenets of his beliefs aren't fucked.
and of course mormons are nice. they are trained to be that way.
have you read 'under the banner of heaven'?
No, I haven't read what you referenced.
And look, I'm not gonna try and sway your stance; you're obviously set in your views and that's fine. I was talking about my own perspective based on what are, granted, limited experiences. Although to say someone has been "trained" to be kind, I dunno. I find it insulting in the way it was phrased. But in the end? Big deal...for both of us.
I'm cool with not lumping everyone into one group but I get that your experiences may have you see otherwise.
i got the point. you know a mormon person you like. doesn't change the fact the the basic tenets of mormonism are totally fucked. i know a racist prick who i am forced to love, doesn't mean the basic tenets of his beliefs aren't fucked.
and of course mormons are nice. they are trained to be that way.
have you read 'under the banner of heaven'?
If I understand correctly, the book mostly talks about Fundamentalist Mormons that left the Mormon church rather than the main organization. The information and history he received on the church itself came from ex-communicated members (Members that had done something grevously wrong in the church and were removed from the roles. The church sees this as part of a repentance process and encourages these members to continue attending to regain full standing, but they often are bitter and stop attending). Krakauer is not a historian, he is a story teller.
It is obvious that you have a strong dislike for Mormons, which is your choice, but don't try to paint yourself as unbigoted when hating on any particular group is just that. Bigoted. I live in India and there is a lot of hatred in this region between Islamic peoples and Hindu peoples. I have Hindu friends that will not interact socially with my Islamic friends and vice versa. Not to say that all are like that, but it is obviously present. Bothers me like crazy when I hear one hate the other because they claim they are hated first. The cycle will never break with that mentality. I feel sorry for you (and the other gentleman that despises particular groups) for holding onto such a burden. If someone did you wrong, let it go. Do what you can in a positive light to improve your own life, but there is no reason to hate another human being over something this simple.
I like what Aaron wrote.
If people didn't define themselves based upon a religion... would we be having this discussion? Probably not.
It doesn't matter what a person's belief system is to anyone else... it all comes down to who the underlying person behind the religious belief/non-belief is.
I'm sure there are nice Mormons out there just as I'm sure there are asshole Mormons out there. Same goes for Christians, Catholics, Scientologists, Muslims, Jews, Atheists, Hindus and every other religion out there. It's not a reflection of the religion, more of a true image of the person.
...
For me... I honestly don't know. It doesn't mean i don't believe or disbelieve... it just mean, I know that I don't know. I'm leaving the door open and will wait until the truth comes in. I'll accept either, God or Void. All i'm looking for is the truth.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
When Jesus met with Joseph Smith, the founder of their faith, he told him that all the existing churches were an abomonation, and that he had to start a new church which would be the only true church on earth....
well thats not what jesus told me.
Well lets all look here at miss smug suzy secret keeper...
Come on then, what did he tell you???
"God created surfing and Pearl Jam so that the truely gifted, talented and most intelligent people wouldnt rule the world"...adapted from my bumper sticker
am not hating on any individual.
i just think mormonism is fucked.
scary ass cult/business posing as a religion based on the ravings of a lunatic con man.
read the book of mormon. it is short and unbelievably terribly written.
all religion is kind of crazy to me. Arguing which brand of crazy is crazier is crazy.....
...
I told that to a friend who was making fun of Scientology. I asked him when the last time he... or any other human... talked to a talking snake.
How does that saying about stones and glass houses go... oh yeah, don't say shit about other people's crazy beliefs if you have crazy beliefs.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
am not hating on any individual.
i just think mormonism is fucked.
scary ass cult/business posing as a religion based on the ravings of a lunatic con man.
read the book of mormon. it is short and unbelievably terribly written.
all religion is kind of crazy to me. Arguing which brand of crazy is crazier is crazy.....
...
I told that to a friend who was making fun of Scientology. I asked him when the last time he... or any other human... talked to a talking snake.
How does that saying about stones and glass houses go... oh yeah, don't say shit about other people's crazy beliefs if you have crazy beliefs.
am not hating on any individual.
i just think mormonism is fucked.
scary ass cult/business posing as a religion based on the ravings of a lunatic con man.
read the book of mormon. it is short and unbelievably terribly written.
all religion is kind of crazy to me. Arguing which brand of crazy is crazier is crazy.....
...
I told that to a friend who was making fun of Scientology. I asked him when the last time he... or any other human... talked to a talking snake.
How does that saying about stones and glass houses go... oh yeah, don't say shit about other people's crazy beliefs if you have crazy beliefs.
HA HA HA HA...thats a great call!
I remember this tree talking to me once...it was on fire...I think I was riding along inside the stomach of a giant whale...but yeah those mormons sure believe some crazy shit!!!
"God created surfing and Pearl Jam so that the truely gifted, talented and most intelligent people wouldnt rule the world"...adapted from my bumper sticker
The Mormon Church, while representing only about 2% of the population of California, accounted for an estimated 50-70% of the money donated to Proposition 8. Mormons were told to donate. (those donations to have my marriage nullified were tax deductible, by the way).
I know a LOT of gay men who grew up in Mormon families that literally treated them like garbage. One guy came home to find all of his belongings on the curb in garbage cans. When he tried to get into the house he found that they had changed the locks and when he tried to get in, the police were called. Turns out they had suspected that he might be gay and had gone into his computer history to see that he'd been reading JoeMyGod.com and Towleroad.
Mormons donate a lot of money to anti-gay political actions in all 50 states and LOTS of other countries. Just how many, we're not sure.
And the only reason they started to allow black people into their cult in the 1970s was that they were threatened with having their tax-free status revoked.
So don't you be talking to me about being "bigoted and full of hate."
The Mormon Church, while representing only about 2% of the population of California, accounted for an estimated 50-70% of the money donated to Proposition 8. Mormons were told to donate. (those donations to have my marriage nullified were tax deductible, by the way).
I know a LOT of gay men who grew up in Mormon families that literally treated them like garbage. One guy came home to find all of his belongings on the curb in garbage cans. When he tried to get into the house he found that they had changed the locks and when he tried to get in, the police were called. Turns out they had suspected that he might be gay and had gone into his computer history to see that he'd been reading JoeMyGod.com and Towleroad.
Mormons donate a lot of money to anti-gay political actions in all 50 states and LOTS of other countries. Just how many, we're not sure.
And the only reason they started to allow black people into their cult in the 1970s was that they were threatened with having their tax-free status revoked.
So don't you be talking to me about being "bigoted and full of hate."
Mormonism is a cult. And a very dangerous one.
price of dorkness. you are correct w/ the mormons hating gays bit. one of my co-drivers in the semi business was a young gay man and was dispised by his father and was not allowed at the house when dad was home type situation. he was terrified of his father. all over some whacky religious cult. he told me stories of unreal beliefs.
masterbation is a sin and no sperm should ever not fertilize an egg. and this is pushed on young people with an iron fist. women do not have an opinion in many mormon households. the man is the boss and the woman dare speak her views. mormon kids do not socialize w/ any children outside of the church. you will not attend after school activities. you will get your ass home or be in deep shit
If you ever have a free night and you're not sure what movie you want to rent on NetFlix... watch "Latter Days."
It's about a closeted gay Mormon missionary sent to Los Angeles. He gets "found out" by his fellow missionaries (who spend most of their time bitching about the time they have to waste being missionaries when "I can't even beat off" and making fart jokes, saying that they only reason they're doing it is so they can finally marry their girlfriends and get laid).
He's ostracized by his parents, he's given a very harsh judgement by his church and his parents send him to one of those bogus "Ex-Gay" places where he's given electric shock treatments and ice-water baths.
There is a scene where his mother tells him angrily that "Men don't love. Men can't love... it's women who bring love to a marriage." Might explain why they're incapable of understanding how two men can love each other and want to build a home and a life together. Why they would be willing to mortgage their houses and spend their children's college funds just to keep us from being legally equal to them.
It really must suck for them to see two men happier than they will ever imagine being.
:fp:
(oh, and it's got a pretty good performance by Jacqueline Bisset who's still rather gorgeous in her 60s.)
If you ever have a free night and you're not sure what movie you want to rent on NetFlix... watch "Latter Days."
It's about a closeted gay Mormon missionary sent to Los Angeles. He gets "found out" by his fellow missionaries (who spend most of their time bitching about the time they have to waste being missionaries when "I can't even beat off" and making fart jokes, saying that they only reason they're doing it is so they can finally marry their girlfriends and get laid).
He's ostracized by his parents, he's given a very harsh judgement by his church and his parents send him to one of those bogus "Ex-Gay" places where he's given electric shock treatments and ice-water baths.
There is a scene where his mother tells him angrily that "Men don't love. Men can't love... it's women who bring love to a marriage." Might explain why they're incapable of understanding how two men can love each other and want to build a home and a life together. Why they would be willing to mortgage their houses and spend their children's college funds just to keep us from being legally equal to them.
It really must suck for them to see two men happier than they will ever imagine being.
:fp:
(oh, and it's got a pretty good performance by Jacqueline Bisset who's still rather gorgeous in her 60s.)
This film isn't a documentary, it is a story. I can write a story that equally bashes on the gay community with distortions and falsities, also. I don't see how this is any different.
I understand your previous point about the LDS church and Prop 8, and I understand your frustrations. Instead of being hateful and bitter, why not try to lovingly educate or inform your individual friends/neighbors about the issues and what they mean to you? You aren't going to change anyone's mind by being angry about the situation.
For example (and admittedly a poor one, considering the deeply personal undertones your situation presents), in India, like everywhere else, I need to buy things, get places, etc. Most people here don't own a car, myself included, so I take auto-riks when I need to get around town. Because I am white, I pay a premium on transportation, goods, etc. It is simply the way it is. I can't change the fact that I'm white, and getting angry at the seller/rik driver gets me nowhere. Instead of going off on them and telling them how awful they are for treating me this way, I get a much better reaction by kindly explaining to them my position and proactively explaining to them why I should buy at x amount instead of y amount. It works most of the time. If it doesn't work, I move on and don't allow that individual to frustrate me any longer. Life is much easier that way.
I understand that the analogy is poor. I understand that the seller still makes a profit, and so catering is still beneficial in some way, where in your case catering has no immediately perceived bonus for the person you're dealing with. On top of that, walking away is much easier because the auto or sales person isn't pushing legislation that keeps me from getting a good deal somewhere nearby (where in your situation, it does, in a manner of speaking). Still, be more proactive on an individual level, and I think you'll find that there will be more understanding between you and those that you may have previously disagreed with.
The tide is obviously turning in your direction. No need to be hateful to people that won't, at least, respect your opinion and offer to hear you out (I mean on an individual basis, seeing that Mormons, or any other religion, is made up of individuals with their own minds, ideas, dreams, etc). Just ignore those individuals and move on to the next.
People that are continually wrong in a society that is positively evolving will eventually isolate themselves into irrelevance. Why concern yourself with them?
i got the point. you know a mormon person you like. doesn't change the fact the the basic tenets of mormonism are totally fucked. i know a racist prick who i am forced to love, doesn't mean the basic tenets of his beliefs aren't fucked.
and of course mormons are nice. they are trained to be that way.
have you read 'under the banner of heaven'?
If I understand correctly, the book mostly talks about Fundamentalist Mormons that left the Mormon church rather than the main organization. The information and history he received on the church itself came from ex-communicated members (Members that had done something grevously wrong in the church and were removed from the roles. The church sees this as part of a repentance process and encourages these members to continue attending to regain full standing, but they often are bitter and stop attending). Krakauer is not a historian, he is a story teller.
It is obvious that you have a strong dislike for Mormons, which is your choice, but don't try to paint yourself as unbigoted when hating on any particular group is just that. Bigoted. I live in India and there is a lot of hatred in this region between Islamic peoples and Hindu peoples. I have Hindu friends that will not interact socially with my Islamic friends and vice versa. Not to say that all are like that, but it is obviously present. Bothers me like crazy when I hear one hate the other because they claim they are hated first. The cycle will never break with that mentality. I feel sorry for you (and the other gentleman that despises particular groups) for holding onto such a burden. If someone did you wrong, let it go. Do what you can in a positive light to improve your own life, but there is no reason to hate another human being over something this simple.
An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
Thank you for your insight, wisdom and sharing your knowledge ...
hate perpetuates as does love
The tide is obviously turning in your direction. No need to be hateful to people that won't, at least, respect your opinion and offer to hear you out (I mean on an individual basis, seeing that Mormons, or any other religion, is made up of individuals with their own minds, ideas, dreams, etc). Just ignore those individuals and move on to the next.
People that are continually wrong in a society that is positively evolving will eventually isolate themselves into irrelevance. Why concern yourself with them?
This film isn't a documentary, it is a story. I can write a story that equally bashes on the gay community with distortions and falsities, also. I don't see how this is any different.
I mean, it's actually based on the real-life coming out of Mitch Vaughn. He says that the things said in the scene where he's excommunicated were taken almost word for word.
Instead of being hateful and bitter, why not try to lovingly educate or inform your individual friends/neighbors about the issues and what they mean to you?
Let me tell you about a woman named Marjory. She was part of a family that owned and operated the restaurant "El Coyote" in Hollywood that had a very large and loyal gay customer base. She worked there for decades. She knew the customers by name. She knew their families. She worked with many gay staff... they were her friends... she was at their houses.
But Marjory was a Mormon and when she was told to donate money to Prop8, she did.
All of the "being nice" or "lovingly educating" in the world didn't change the fact that she felt like a superior being to these people. Sometimes you have to stop being so damn nice and get angry.
(and yes, for the record I DO know that I probably do that a bit more than is healthy)
...
When Jesus met with Joseph Smith, the founder of their faith, he told him that all the existing churches were an abomonation, and that he had to start a new church which would be the only true church on earth....
well thats not what jesus told me.
Well lets all look here at miss smug suzy secret keeper...
Come on then, what did he tell you???
tis not really a secret... everyone knows that, according to the literature, to get to God/heaven/whatever you want to call you it, you have to go through jesus so...
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
0
curmudgeoness
Brigadoon, foodie capital Posts: 3,991
Back to the original question:
A data point or two from my personal experiences:
I have a friend who is LDS; she considers herself to be a Christian. She homeschools her children; one time she moved to a community that had a large evangelical Christian community. When she tried to join the local homeschooling organization, she was turned away because she and her family were "not Christian."
I suspect Christian-ness lies in the eyes of the beholder. I attended a Catholic high school, where I had a religion class taught by a nun who informed all of us that Protestants "deviated from the true Christian element." :?
All those who seek to destroy the liberties of a democratic nation ought to know that war is the surest and shortest means to accomplish it.
I have a friend who is LDS; she considers herself to be a Christian. She homeschools her children; one time she moved to a community that had a large evangelical Christian community. When she tried to join the local homeschooling organization, she was turned away because she and her family were "not Christian."
I suspect Christian-ness lies in the eyes of the beholder. I attended a Catholic high school, where I had a religion class taught by a nun who informed all of us that Protestants "deviated from the true Christian element." :?
...
Jesus wept.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I read where the Catholic Church has denied access to the Mormons of their records because
--Mormon’s believe that the dead can be baptized.
--Mormon’s don’t believe in the ‘original sin’.
The Catholic Church doesn't hold Mormons as true Christians.
SIN EATERS--We take the moral excrement we find in this equation and we bury it down deep inside of us so that the rest of our case can stay pure. That is the job. We are morally indefensible and absolutely necessary.
One of them believes that humans are descended from spirit orbs created by a god that lives on the planet Kolob.
The other is a Cardassian.
:fp:
I really think you should get your facts straight about the strangeness of the LDS church if you're going to be railing on them.
There is no "planet" Kolob, it is a star. They don't believe they are descended from "spirit orbs" but they do believe people were spirits before they were here.
...and both people in the picture are Cardassians.
i got the point. you know a mormon person you like. doesn't change the fact the the basic tenets of mormonism are totally fucked. i know a racist prick who i am forced to love, doesn't mean the basic tenets of his beliefs aren't fucked.
and of course mormons are nice. they are trained to be that way.
have you read 'under the banner of heaven'?
If I understand correctly, the book mostly talks about Fundamentalist Mormons that left the Mormon church rather than the main organization. The information and history he received on the church itself came from ex-communicated members (Members that had done something grevously wrong in the church and were removed from the roles. The church sees this as part of a repentance process and encourages these members to continue attending to regain full standing, but they often are bitter and stop attending). Krakauer is not a historian, he is a story teller.
It is obvious that you have a strong dislike for Mormons, which is your choice, but don't try to paint yourself as unbigoted when hating on any particular group is just that. Bigoted. I live in India and there is a lot of hatred in this region between Islamic peoples and Hindu peoples. I have Hindu friends that will not interact socially with my Islamic friends and vice versa. Not to say that all are like that, but it is obviously present. Bothers me like crazy when I hear one hate the other because they claim they are hated first. The cycle will never break with that mentality. I feel sorry for you (and the other gentleman that despises particular groups) for holding onto such a burden. If someone did you wrong, let it go. Do what you can in a positive light to improve your own life, but there is no reason to hate another human being over something this simple.
An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
Thank you for your insight, wisdom and sharing your knowledge ...
hate perpetuates as does love
i wanna be done here, but be called a bigot is not sitting well.
hey how bout the avengers? i haven't seen, it but i understand this is how it goes. . .
i'm not having a book discussion with someone who hasn't read the (krakauer) book. his sources were varied and solid.
mormons are super nice. alarmingly nice. they don't swear or drink or smoke.
they are building a 60 thousand square foot temple down the street from me, outside a town of 1000 people. for the barnyard likes of me, that is a huge task, so i think, 'sweet that'll put some people to work'.
yep. one local electric company is being hired to help. all the rest of the construction is being contracted out of utah, 6 hours away. the local company is mormon. they are my neighbors. they are super nice. they don't smoke or drink or swear. we trade christmas pies every year. they pump out babies like it's going out of style.
every local builder not mormon owned, who put in a bid for anything, from excavation to paint, was rejected. it's my feeling that they were not chosen based on faith as opposed to bids - that ownership wasn't lds. i don't think that lds likes a level playing field much.
i find them to be more business than religion. they have a temple in the heart of beverly hills. i find the roots of their belief system very strange.
brigham young was a racist of the highest order, and their track record on racism sucks.
to me it is culty and creepy.
i wanna be done here, but be called a bigot is not sitting well.
hey how bout the avengers? i haven't seen, it but i understand this is how it goes. . .
i'm not having a book discussion with someone who hasn't read the (krakauer) book. his sources were varied and solid.
mormons are super nice. alarmingly nice. they don't swear or drink or smoke.
they are building a 60 thousand square foot temple down the street from me, outside a town of 1000 people. for the barnyard likes of me, that is a huge task, so i think, 'sweet that'll put some people to work'.
yep. one local electric company is being hired to help. all the rest of the construction is being contracted out of utah, 6 hours away. the local company is mormon. they are my neighbors. they are super nice. they don't smoke or drink or swear. we trade christmas pies every year. they pump out babies like it's going out of style.
every local builder not mormon owned, who put in a bid for anything, from excavation to paint, was rejected. it's my feeling that they were not chosen based on faith as opposed to bids - that ownership wasn't lds. i don't think that lds likes a level playing field much.
i find them to be more business than religion. they have a temple in the heart of beverly hills. i find the roots of their belief system very strange.
brigham young was a racist of the highest order, and their track record on racism sucks.
to me it is culty and creepy.
am i a bigot and if so what can be done?
According to Wikipedia, they bought the land for that temple (in Westwood, close, but not quite Beverly Hills) in 1937. They have temples all over the planet, and typically build them where there's a need due to the number of members in an area. They also build some in areas that have significant historical meaning to the church's history.
I stand by my claim that Krakauer is a story teller and not a historian or documentarian. Into The Wild was ridiculous, in my opinion. Loved the movie (as a movie) but the book was a tough read with him rambling on about his own speculations and experiences and somehow trying to mash them together into a dialogue he presents as factual. Seemed like he took every chance to get on his high horse and go on about his own life. It could as easily been a story about himself, with how much he rambled on about his climbing experience. Either way, you are correct in your assumption that I have not read the book, but to me it is like Keith Olbermann attempting to be a sports announcer...he just isn't fit for that kind of work, and neither is Krakauer as a documentarian. If you are willing to support his work by citing his sources (rather than simply saying they were varied and solid), I am prepared to discuss them.
I would agree that there are some unsettling quotes out there attributed to (and I believe spoken by) Brigham Young. Here's an interesting read on blacks in the early LDS church (before Brigham Young).
When temples are built, I believe the LDS church usually goes with LDS builders unless none can be found (that are competent). I believe they feel that LDS builders will see the job as something special and take great care while others may just see it as a job to complete. The church even goes as far (in the thoroughness of the building) as making sure any pencil marks are removed from the framing before covering it, even though nobody would see the markings.
once again, please read before discussing. it's not to long and a really good read. scarier that stephen king. a shorter and less good read? book of mormon.
under the banner of heaven actually goes back and forth between the 1800s and the almost present, telling the story of a gruesome murder of a wife and her 15 month old baby at the hands of the husbands two older brothers, who, of course, were told by god to do this. one of the murderers was a sheriffs deputy. this happened in the 80s. i have heard noone question the validity of the story as it is told, except someone who hasn't read the fucking book.
then there is debbie palmer, born into fundementalist family, married off at 14 to a 57 year old, his sixth wife. her story is basically had five kids with creepy old man, went crazy, burned house to the ground and escaped with her children.
within the narrative there is also the kidnapping of elizabeth smart, an overly detailed account of joseph smith and his ragtag group of crazies' journey, and the story of brigham young, racist lunatic megalomaniac.
also a super detailed account of the mountain meadow massacre that gave me some good nightmares - heres some wiki
lds hires lds workers because 10 percent of the cost paid out to them ends up back in the lds coffers. hiring outside the church doersn't bring shit - makes no financial sense.
and also, the church does believe that lds carpenters will do a better job. as the prince of dorkness pointed out, they are better than regular people. they're the only one's going to heaven. they must be.
carpenters erase pencil marks on the framing? new one for me. boy their god is fucking picky.
is racism alive and well in the modern day lds. i dunno. wait, yes i do.
1. They do not believe that God has always existed.
2. They think Jesus was a prophet and didn't always exist.
3. They do not believe in the concept of the holy trinity.
Those are some of the most basic, fundamental Christian beliefs. Therefore they are not Christians.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Comments
and of course mormons are nice. they are trained to be that way.
have you read 'under the banner of heaven'?
And look, I'm not gonna try and sway your stance; you're obviously set in your views and that's fine. I was talking about my own perspective based on what are, granted, limited experiences. Although to say someone has been "trained" to be kind, I dunno. I find it insulting in the way it was phrased. But in the end? Big deal...for both of us.
I'm cool with not lumping everyone into one group but I get that your experiences may have you see otherwise.
It is obvious that you have a strong dislike for Mormons, which is your choice, but don't try to paint yourself as unbigoted when hating on any particular group is just that. Bigoted. I live in India and there is a lot of hatred in this region between Islamic peoples and Hindu peoples. I have Hindu friends that will not interact socially with my Islamic friends and vice versa. Not to say that all are like that, but it is obviously present. Bothers me like crazy when I hear one hate the other because they claim they are hated first. The cycle will never break with that mentality. I feel sorry for you (and the other gentleman that despises particular groups) for holding onto such a burden. If someone did you wrong, let it go. Do what you can in a positive light to improve your own life, but there is no reason to hate another human being over something this simple.
An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
If people didn't define themselves based upon a religion... would we be having this discussion? Probably not.
It doesn't matter what a person's belief system is to anyone else... it all comes down to who the underlying person behind the religious belief/non-belief is.
I'm sure there are nice Mormons out there just as I'm sure there are asshole Mormons out there. Same goes for Christians, Catholics, Scientologists, Muslims, Jews, Atheists, Hindus and every other religion out there. It's not a reflection of the religion, more of a true image of the person.
...
For me... I honestly don't know. It doesn't mean i don't believe or disbelieve... it just mean, I know that I don't know. I'm leaving the door open and will wait until the truth comes in. I'll accept either, God or Void. All i'm looking for is the truth.
Hail, Hail!!!
i just think mormonism is fucked.
scary ass cult/business posing as a religion based on the ravings of a lunatic con man.
read the book of mormon. it is short and unbelievably terribly written.
Well lets all look here at miss smug suzy secret keeper...
Come on then, what did he tell you???
all religion is kind of crazy to me. Arguing which brand of crazy is crazier is crazy.....
I told that to a friend who was making fun of Scientology. I asked him when the last time he... or any other human... talked to a talking snake.
How does that saying about stones and glass houses go... oh yeah, don't say shit about other people's crazy beliefs if you have crazy beliefs.
Hail, Hail!!!
exactly.
HA HA HA HA...thats a great call!
I remember this tree talking to me once...it was on fire...I think I was riding along inside the stomach of a giant whale...but yeah those mormons sure believe some crazy shit!!!
The Mormon Church, while representing only about 2% of the population of California, accounted for an estimated 50-70% of the money donated to Proposition 8. Mormons were told to donate. (those donations to have my marriage nullified were tax deductible, by the way).
I know a LOT of gay men who grew up in Mormon families that literally treated them like garbage. One guy came home to find all of his belongings on the curb in garbage cans. When he tried to get into the house he found that they had changed the locks and when he tried to get in, the police were called. Turns out they had suspected that he might be gay and had gone into his computer history to see that he'd been reading JoeMyGod.com and Towleroad.
Mormons donate a lot of money to anti-gay political actions in all 50 states and LOTS of other countries. Just how many, we're not sure.
And the only reason they started to allow black people into their cult in the 1970s was that they were threatened with having their tax-free status revoked.
So don't you be talking to me about being "bigoted and full of hate."
Mormonism is a cult. And a very dangerous one.
masterbation is a sin and no sperm should ever not fertilize an egg. and this is pushed on young people with an iron fist. women do not have an opinion in many mormon households. the man is the boss and the woman dare speak her views. mormon kids do not socialize w/ any children outside of the church. you will not attend after school activities. you will get your ass home or be in deep shit
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
It's about a closeted gay Mormon missionary sent to Los Angeles. He gets "found out" by his fellow missionaries (who spend most of their time bitching about the time they have to waste being missionaries when "I can't even beat off" and making fart jokes, saying that they only reason they're doing it is so they can finally marry their girlfriends and get laid).
He's ostracized by his parents, he's given a very harsh judgement by his church and his parents send him to one of those bogus "Ex-Gay" places where he's given electric shock treatments and ice-water baths.
There is a scene where his mother tells him angrily that "Men don't love. Men can't love... it's women who bring love to a marriage." Might explain why they're incapable of understanding how two men can love each other and want to build a home and a life together. Why they would be willing to mortgage their houses and spend their children's college funds just to keep us from being legally equal to them.
It really must suck for them to see two men happier than they will ever imagine being.
:fp:
(oh, and it's got a pretty good performance by Jacqueline Bisset who's still rather gorgeous in her 60s.)
I understand your previous point about the LDS church and Prop 8, and I understand your frustrations. Instead of being hateful and bitter, why not try to lovingly educate or inform your individual friends/neighbors about the issues and what they mean to you? You aren't going to change anyone's mind by being angry about the situation.
For example (and admittedly a poor one, considering the deeply personal undertones your situation presents), in India, like everywhere else, I need to buy things, get places, etc. Most people here don't own a car, myself included, so I take auto-riks when I need to get around town. Because I am white, I pay a premium on transportation, goods, etc. It is simply the way it is. I can't change the fact that I'm white, and getting angry at the seller/rik driver gets me nowhere. Instead of going off on them and telling them how awful they are for treating me this way, I get a much better reaction by kindly explaining to them my position and proactively explaining to them why I should buy at x amount instead of y amount. It works most of the time. If it doesn't work, I move on and don't allow that individual to frustrate me any longer. Life is much easier that way.
I understand that the analogy is poor. I understand that the seller still makes a profit, and so catering is still beneficial in some way, where in your case catering has no immediately perceived bonus for the person you're dealing with. On top of that, walking away is much easier because the auto or sales person isn't pushing legislation that keeps me from getting a good deal somewhere nearby (where in your situation, it does, in a manner of speaking). Still, be more proactive on an individual level, and I think you'll find that there will be more understanding between you and those that you may have previously disagreed with.
The tide is obviously turning in your direction. No need to be hateful to people that won't, at least, respect your opinion and offer to hear you out (I mean on an individual basis, seeing that Mormons, or any other religion, is made up of individuals with their own minds, ideas, dreams, etc). Just ignore those individuals and move on to the next.
People that are continually wrong in a society that is positively evolving will eventually isolate themselves into irrelevance. Why concern yourself with them?
hate perpetuates as does love
Thank you.
I mean, it's actually based on the real-life coming out of Mitch Vaughn. He says that the things said in the scene where he's excommunicated were taken almost word for word.
Let me tell you about a woman named Marjory. She was part of a family that owned and operated the restaurant "El Coyote" in Hollywood that had a very large and loyal gay customer base. She worked there for decades. She knew the customers by name. She knew their families. She worked with many gay staff... they were her friends... she was at their houses.
But Marjory was a Mormon and when she was told to donate money to Prop8, she did.
All of the "being nice" or "lovingly educating" in the world didn't change the fact that she felt like a superior being to these people. Sometimes you have to stop being so damn nice and get angry.
(and yes, for the record I DO know that I probably do that a bit more than is healthy)
tis not really a secret... everyone knows that, according to the literature, to get to God/heaven/whatever you want to call you it, you have to go through jesus so...
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
A data point or two from my personal experiences:
I have a friend who is LDS; she considers herself to be a Christian. She homeschools her children; one time she moved to a community that had a large evangelical Christian community. When she tried to join the local homeschooling organization, she was turned away because she and her family were "not Christian."
I suspect Christian-ness lies in the eyes of the beholder. I attended a Catholic high school, where I had a religion class taught by a nun who informed all of us that Protestants "deviated from the true Christian element." :?
Jesus wept.
Hail, Hail!!!
--Mormon’s believe that the dead can be baptized.
--Mormon’s don’t believe in the ‘original sin’.
The Catholic Church doesn't hold Mormons as true Christians.
One of them believes that humans are descended from spirit orbs created by a god that lives on the planet Kolob.
The other is a Cardassian.
:fp:
I'm going to file this one under, 'That's A Gimme'.
Hail, Hail!!!
There is no "planet" Kolob, it is a star. They don't believe they are descended from "spirit orbs" but they do believe people were spirits before they were here.
...and both people in the picture are Cardassians.
Knowing my ancestors has brought insight into my own life, who I am, where I am going
it is lovely knowledge
i wanna be done here, but be called a bigot is not sitting well.
hey how bout the avengers? i haven't seen, it but i understand this is how it goes. . .
i'm not having a book discussion with someone who hasn't read the (krakauer) book. his sources were varied and solid.
mormons are super nice. alarmingly nice. they don't swear or drink or smoke.
they are building a 60 thousand square foot temple down the street from me, outside a town of 1000 people. for the barnyard likes of me, that is a huge task, so i think, 'sweet that'll put some people to work'.
yep. one local electric company is being hired to help. all the rest of the construction is being contracted out of utah, 6 hours away. the local company is mormon. they are my neighbors. they are super nice. they don't smoke or drink or swear. we trade christmas pies every year. they pump out babies like it's going out of style.
every local builder not mormon owned, who put in a bid for anything, from excavation to paint, was rejected. it's my feeling that they were not chosen based on faith as opposed to bids - that ownership wasn't lds. i don't think that lds likes a level playing field much.
i find them to be more business than religion. they have a temple in the heart of beverly hills. i find the roots of their belief system very strange.
brigham young was a racist of the highest order, and their track record on racism sucks.
to me it is culty and creepy.
am i a bigot and if so what can be done?
I stand by my claim that Krakauer is a story teller and not a historian or documentarian. Into The Wild was ridiculous, in my opinion. Loved the movie (as a movie) but the book was a tough read with him rambling on about his own speculations and experiences and somehow trying to mash them together into a dialogue he presents as factual. Seemed like he took every chance to get on his high horse and go on about his own life. It could as easily been a story about himself, with how much he rambled on about his climbing experience. Either way, you are correct in your assumption that I have not read the book, but to me it is like Keith Olbermann attempting to be a sports announcer...he just isn't fit for that kind of work, and neither is Krakauer as a documentarian. If you are willing to support his work by citing his sources (rather than simply saying they were varied and solid), I am prepared to discuss them.
I would agree that there are some unsettling quotes out there attributed to (and I believe spoken by) Brigham Young. Here's an interesting read on blacks in the early LDS church (before Brigham Young).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_peop ... _Mormonism
For some Brigham Young quotes, and a little bit of context behind the snippets, here's another wikipedia on the subject.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_peop ... gham_Young
When temples are built, I believe the LDS church usually goes with LDS builders unless none can be found (that are competent). I believe they feel that LDS builders will see the job as something special and take great care while others may just see it as a job to complete. The church even goes as far (in the thoroughness of the building) as making sure any pencil marks are removed from the framing before covering it, even though nobody would see the markings.
once again, please read before discussing. it's not to long and a really good read. scarier that stephen king. a shorter and less good read? book of mormon.
under the banner of heaven actually goes back and forth between the 1800s and the almost present, telling the story of a gruesome murder of a wife and her 15 month old baby at the hands of the husbands two older brothers, who, of course, were told by god to do this. one of the murderers was a sheriffs deputy. this happened in the 80s. i have heard noone question the validity of the story as it is told, except someone who hasn't read the fucking book.
then there is debbie palmer, born into fundementalist family, married off at 14 to a 57 year old, his sixth wife. her story is basically had five kids with creepy old man, went crazy, burned house to the ground and escaped with her children.
within the narrative there is also the kidnapping of elizabeth smart, an overly detailed account of joseph smith and his ragtag group of crazies' journey, and the story of brigham young, racist lunatic megalomaniac.
also a super detailed account of the mountain meadow massacre that gave me some good nightmares - heres some wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_massacre
lds hires lds workers because 10 percent of the cost paid out to them ends up back in the lds coffers. hiring outside the church doersn't bring shit - makes no financial sense.
and also, the church does believe that lds carpenters will do a better job. as the prince of dorkness pointed out, they are better than regular people. they're the only one's going to heaven. they must be.
carpenters erase pencil marks on the framing? new one for me. boy their god is fucking picky.
is racism alive and well in the modern day lds. i dunno. wait, yes i do.
http://deadspin.com/5791461/the-truth-a ... ode-at-byu
the more i learn, the more i think it's a cult. i don't want to be a bigot.
aside from not joining, what to do?
2. They think Jesus was a prophet and didn't always exist.
3. They do not believe in the concept of the holy trinity.
Those are some of the most basic, fundamental Christian beliefs. Therefore they are not Christians.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
isnt there a general consensus about this? the bible tells of his birth so at one point he didnt exist. heck at one point all of us didnt exist.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say