Are Mormons Christian?

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Comments

  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,759
    javis el errante wrote:
    Bear with me guys...

    I was raised as a Catholic, went to Catholic elementary school and Catholic highschool. Answering the question, to me Mormons are Christians. To the Catholic church, that is to say, from the Pope downwards, regarding that those below the pope are in the same wavelength, Mormons and all the rest Christians religions are not in fact religions, but cults, and I agree with that. However, the word Christian can be considered by two aspects, one to refer to people, "He is a Christian", and other to refer to deeds, "That's not a Christian thing to do". Therefore, even though Mormons perform deeds which may be considered as a Christian thing to do, I cannot regard Mormonism as a religion, more over, some deeds Mormons perform ARE NOT a Christian thing to do.

    The difference between Catholics and the rest of the religious christian clubs is a bit vague. Catholicism is based on The Holy Trinity, God, Jesus and Holy Spirit, however, they are the same entity, and odd as it may be, when Jesus asked His Father, our God, forgiveness for our sins, he was in fact talking to himself :shock: . I always wondered why if Jesus was a Jew, why aren't we all Jews? Why the Old Testament is made of Jewish books? Remeber that all the main characters and heroes of the Old Testament are jews. And why did the other Jews turn on him, since it was the Son of God? Why did the sell Jesus to the Romans? And who was the Roman Emperor who some years later said "tear those fucking statues down, we are turning into Christianism", and why?

    The Catholic church only considers Judaism, Islam and Buddhism religions. The rest of the Christian divisions are considered cults. They only share with catholicism God and Jesus. Some don't believe in the Holy Spirit, some do; some others don't believe in Virgin Mary and other Saints, some do. Some only believe in God, Jesus and angels. Many don't acknowledge the apostles. Some take inot account the New Testament, some only the Old Testament (the jewish part of the Bible, but they're Christians, not Jews). So, there are a lot to go round, so you can choose the one that suits you the most, so, in that trend of thought, it kinda looks like a club, not a religion.

    By the way, the Catholic church doesn't regards Protestantism, Lutheranism, Anglicanism, Baptism, Presbiterianism, and all the rest of the -isms I'm forgetting as religions, they are considred cults. When Henry VIII couldn't have children he requested the Pope to grant him the chance to divorce his wife, the Pope said "WTF? No way!", so Henry started his own religion. Then Martin Luther, who was quite well off, came along and said that the path to salvation was one of faith, and faith only, no good deeds or money, things that Roman church needed.

    As I said, I was raised a Catholic, and OMG, that shit is crazy. All religions are crazy. After learning how to turn the other cheek, embrace the neighbour, love the neighbour, help the poor, help those in need, and all the rest, it was shocking to see two girls of the senior year being expelled from school because they got pregnant, something clicked in my mind, something felt wrong, I mean, if Jesus was in love with prostitute and had a girl with her, out of wedlock, why this 17-year-old girls couldn't? Catholicism is some crazy shit, but Mormonism takes all the prizes... is it Kola or Kolob the asteroid were this guy lives? or is it V-612? Yes, Mormons perform some good deeds, ask an african-american person, a latino, a gay person... Racism, discrimination, very Christian things to do...

    check this videos about this so called christians, they are fun, and interesting... thanks to Bill Maher

    this one have some explanations about what is being discussed
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKqqGX0DEMM

    this is from the show on April 27
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mp8jbnzrCDU

    this is from the show on May 4
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NLlAKKdTtY

    and this one is from last Friday
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6L1_932Vx0


    As far as I know, the Jews threw Jesus under the bus because he realized that organized religion was total bullshit, and spoke against the politics of the Jewish establishment. So Jesus really left the Jewish faith and spoke against it as an organized religion (not to mention that whole "I'm the son of God thing" - pretty sure most of the Jews just looked at him the same way we looked at David Koresh, only more charismatic and less evil), threatening all the dudes who got their power through that establishment.... Which leads me to believe that Jesus must be rolling in his grave over "Christianity" and the way it developed in his name, since organized Christianity flies in the face of so many of the things that Jesus actually preached, and I think it's just awful how people have managed to warp his message since he died and pin his name to all of it, because as an Atheist, I'm all for a message against organized religions. I'm pretty sure that if Jesus could come back to life he's shit his pants once he learned what the Catholic Church was all about!! ... Though I wonder if he'd change his mind if the Pope handed him a statement of the holdings of the Vatican Bank, because I'm pretty sure Jesus would have to get a pretty penny out of that assuming he got a good lawyer. ;)
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • javis el errante
    javis el errante Buenos Aires Posts: 6,145
    PJ_Soul wrote:
    As far as I know, the Jews threw Jesus under the bus because he realized that organized religion was total bullshit, and spoke against the politics of the Jewish establishment. So Jesus really left the Jewish faith and spoke against it as an organized religion (not to mention that whole "I'm the son of God thing" - pretty sure most of the Jews just looked at him the same way we looked at David Koresh, only more charismatic and less evil), threatening all the dudes who got their power through that establishment.... Which leads me to believe that Jesus must be rolling in his grave over "Christianity" and the way it developed in his name, since organized Christianity flies in the face of so many of the things that Jesus actually preached, and I think it's just awful how people have managed to warp his message since he died and pin his name to all of it, because as an Atheist, I'm all for a message against organized religions. I'm pretty sure that if Jesus could come back to life he's shit his pants once he learned what the Catholic Church was all about!! ... Though I wonder if he'd change his mind if the Pope handed him a statement of the holdings of the Vatican Bank, because I'm pretty sure Jesus would have to get a pretty penny out of that assuming he got a good lawyer. ;)

    I totally agree, how did I miss the point that Jesus left the ultimate commandment: love your neighbour as much as yourself! That's basic, and throws all religious hierarchy and seniority out of the window, which eventually is bad for business. By the way, I also agree with the idea that Jesus must collect every single penny made out of religion, I mean, there are some copyright and royalties issues at stake. Did you have fun with the videos? I can't stop laughing: "Always the bride, never the bride's maid"...

    here's a few more

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao_PdmER ... re=related

    The Mass Delusion http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95iRvZOt ... re=related

    Best moment in Real Time http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lse3J6Lk ... re=related
    ... I am not in the business of being liked anymore ...

  • notforconsumption
    notforconsumption Posts: 116
    javis el errante wrote:
    The Catholic church only considers Judaism, Islam and Buddhism religions. The rest of the Christian divisions are considered cults.

    I'm pretty sure they don't consider the Orthodox Church as a cult.
  • ONCE DEVIDED
    ONCE DEVIDED Posts: 1,131
    know1 wrote:
    catefrances wrote:

    theres no room for religion in politics. and if you make political decisions(for the nation) based on your religious views then you should not be in politics. and as you said. it matters to be honest and i think thats the biggest thing. oh and admitting when youre wrong.

    I totally disagree with this. If you're a religious person and you have a set of values and morals that you try to follow, then you should absolutely make political decisions based upon those. There is no way you can be a TRULY religious person and not have it affect your decisions.

    And heres the reason religion should play no part in politics
    There is no proof of gods existence, only your belief in that existence
    And why should my life be affected by something like your beliefs
    Religion is against scientists and doctors trying to find a cure for my daughters condition
    Religion is against my neighbors being able to legally commit to each other because they both have penis's
    Religion has no right to tell me what to do

    I have a set of morals I try to follow as well, probably not far from your own. But religion pays no part in that


    Religion has no part to play in
    AUSSIE AUSSIE AUSSIE
  • kenny olav
    kenny olav Posts: 3,319
    Flagg wrote:
    Cosmo wrote:
    Bottom line... does it really matter?
    My view is that if someone has to prove how much of a 'better Christian' they are than others... does that act itself make them less of Christian?
    Who cares if someone like Mitt Romney is a Mormon or a Christian... what matters is his character. If you can look beyond his acts of taking over companies and cutting them up and selling off the pieces, leaving many American workers striped of the pensions they were depending upon to retire... that's your call. To me, it doesn't matter if he is a Mormon or Christian or Jew or Atheist... what matters to me is his character... or lack thereof.

    Yep. I do find it funny through that a lot of people I know who are Baptists are convinced Obama is a secret Muslim even though he professes Christianity yet they will vote for Romney even though they consider Mormonism to be a cult.

    The whole thing is so insane it is fascinating.

    It is fascinating, and kinda funny, and kinda maddening. How can someone believe that anyone can be a "secret Muslm"? How can anyone sincerely be a Muslim and claim not to be? He would then have to be a pretend Muslim pretending to be a Christian. It's just nuts.

    It does however make sense to theorize that Obama is a secret atheist, and same thing could easily be true of Mitt Romney, George W. Bush, or just about any politician. They're professional liars. I don't think the majority of politicians actually believe in any of the religions they say they believe in. They say what needs to be said to get people to trust them.
  • know1
    know1 Posts: 6,801
    ONCE DEVIDED wrote:

    And heres the reason religion should play no part in politics
    There is no proof of gods existence, only your belief in that existence
    And why should my life be affected by something like your beliefs
    Religion is against scientists and doctors trying to find a cure for my daughters condition
    Religion is against my neighbors being able to legally commit to each other because they both have penis's
    Religion has no right to tell me what to do

    I have a set of morals I try to follow as well, probably not far from your own. But religion pays no part in that


    Religion has no part to play in

    Wow - generalize much??

    There are so many anti-religious people on this board that really have no clue what religion is. It's pretty closed minded, really. Sure - there are SOME religions that do some of the things you say, but there are plenty of others that do not.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    Seems religion provides a positivity in and of itself for many people.
  • javis el errante
    javis el errante Buenos Aires Posts: 6,145
    notforconsumption wrote:
    javis el errante wrote:
    The Catholic church only considers Judaism, Islam and Buddhism religions. The rest of the Christian divisions are considered cults.

    I'm pretty sure they don't consider the Orthodox Church as a cult.

    you mean the Orthodox Catholic Church?
    ... I am not in the business of being liked anymore ...

  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,759
    javis el errante wrote:
    PJ_Soul wrote:
    As far as I know, the Jews threw Jesus under the bus because he realized that organized religion was total bullshit, and spoke against the politics of the Jewish establishment. So Jesus really left the Jewish faith and spoke against it as an organized religion (not to mention that whole "I'm the son of God thing" - pretty sure most of the Jews just looked at him the same way we looked at David Koresh, only more charismatic and less evil), threatening all the dudes who got their power through that establishment.... Which leads me to believe that Jesus must be rolling in his grave over "Christianity" and the way it developed in his name, since organized Christianity flies in the face of so many of the things that Jesus actually preached, and I think it's just awful how people have managed to warp his message since he died and pin his name to all of it, because as an Atheist, I'm all for a message against organized religions. I'm pretty sure that if Jesus could come back to life he's shit his pants once he learned what the Catholic Church was all about!! ... Though I wonder if he'd change his mind if the Pope handed him a statement of the holdings of the Vatican Bank, because I'm pretty sure Jesus would have to get a pretty penny out of that assuming he got a good lawyer. ;)

    I totally agree, how did I miss the point that Jesus left the ultimate commandment: love your neighbour as much as yourself! That's basic, and throws all religious hierarchy and seniority out of the window, which eventually is bad for business. By the way, I also agree with the idea that Jesus must collect every single penny made out of religion, I mean, there are some copyright and royalties issues at stake. Did you have fun with the videos? I can't stop laughing: "Always the bride, never the bride's maid"...

    here's a few more

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao_PdmER ... re=related

    The Mass Delusion http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95iRvZOt ... re=related

    Best moment in Real Time http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lse3J6Lk ... re=related
    :thumbup: Bill Maher is one of my heros! "Ghandi was so fucking Christian he was Hindu." :lol:
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    know1 wrote:
    ONCE DEVIDED wrote:

    And heres the reason religion should play no part in politics
    There is no proof of gods existence, only your belief in that existence
    And why should my life be affected by something like your beliefs
    Religion is against scientists and doctors trying to find a cure for my daughters condition
    Religion is against my neighbors being able to legally commit to each other because they both have penis's
    Religion has no right to tell me what to do

    I have a set of morals I try to follow as well, probably not far from your own. But religion pays no part in that


    Religion has no part to play in

    Wow - generalize much??

    There are so many anti-religious people on this board that really have no clue what religion is. It's pretty closed minded, really. Sure - there are SOME religions that do some of the things you say, but there are plenty of others that do not.








    well i know what religion is. and i knowwhats been done in its and Gods name. and i include allah and every other diety you can name. religion just doesnt make any sense to me. i do understand the place it has in society... in all societies. but still i cant make any sense out of it. ive even asked some people here questions hoping to make sense of their beliefs but ive been ignored. i am very open minded. just cause i dont believe in God/s and just cause religion doesnt make any sense to me and never has, doesnt mean im close minded or small minded(if there is a difference between those two things). what i see as close minded is when someone ignores someones desire for information in hopes they can maybe, just maybe understand that someones beliefs a little better.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    Cosmo wrote:
    know1 wrote:
    catefrances wrote:

    theres no room for religion in politics. and if you make political decisions(for the nation) based on your religious views then you should not be in politics. and as you said. it matters to be honest and i think thats the biggest thing. oh and admitting when youre wrong.

    I totally disagree with this. If you're a religious person and you have a set of values and morals that you try to follow, then you should absolutely make political decisions based upon those. There is no way you can be a TRULY religious person and not have it affect your decisions.
    ...
    In my view... our moral compass is not directed by our religious beiefs... it is (or SHOULD) be directed by our humanity. Our values are founded upon our being... not our beliefs. We should be making our decisions based upon whether they are the right thing to do... not because we are being watched by Jesus or God or whatever our religion if founded upon. We should base our decisions and actions on what is right... not to appease anyone... Including deities.
    I see the signs that are changed weekly in front of our churches ...
    a current event, a thought, a value, a moral, this weeks lesson.

    I see a hundred or more cars parked out front on a Saturday, Sunday or Wednesday.
    I visualize hundreds listening, learning, being reminded ...
    FEELING HUMANITY

    the troubles and solutions, praying for better....
    making it better

    being together making it better one touch, one action, one lesson at a time.

    People are not doing the right thing because they are being watched
    they choose to do right because they are taught.

    This is religion, this is church, this is knowing God ...
    individually this makes for a much better world.

    Embrace Love.
  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    know1 wrote:
    Wow - generalize much??

    There are so many anti-religious people on this board that really have no clue what religion is. It's pretty closed minded, really. Sure - there are SOME religions that do some of the things you say, but there are plenty of others that do not.
    ...
    That the deal with religion... there isn't just one religion. If there was, it'd be simple... believe or not believe.
    But, to sing the praises of religion (or to curse their imperfections) means you should consider ALL Religions in the same, equal light, shouldn't you. Simply, if you go on and on about how great Christianity... shouldn't you go on and on about the greatness of Islam? Judaism? Scientology?
    And there is the problem. Religions, more specifically, people whom follow a religion, will only praise their own religion, whilst cursing the others.
    That is not open-mindedness, is it?
    ...
    This goes from the massive organized religions to the tiniest cult or person that believes in their own personal religion.
    The only truth we know about God is... we simply don't know. We believe through some conduit, such as a religion... but, the truth is... we just don't know.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    Cosmo wrote:

    The only truth we know about God is... we simply don't know. We believe through some conduit, such as a religion... but, the truth is... we just don't know.

    I must say there are an awful lot knowing what can not be known then.
    I would say it is more of a feeling factor.

    To start we must ask ourselves what do we have faith in?

    Faith is needed to achieve anything and everything we do.
    It is the basis to determination, vision, dedication.

    Do some only have faith with proof? With tangibles? in themselves? in others?
    in fact?

    While others have faith with feeling? an encompassing belief ... a knowing.

    Thought this lovely quote, I keep close, fits here ...
    it explains the knowing of Faith.

    "Faith is the bird that feels the light when the dawn is still dark."

    Rabindranath Tagore

    In deep thought we see that is our nature, what each of us brought with us.
    Feeling is believing is knowing.

    I have been wondering in the decades to come if there will be a massive return
    to God because it will appear the prophecies of religions are indeed coming true.
    Unfortunately that might be based in fear not feeling.

    Letting go of fear is the path to feeling.
  • hedonist
    hedonist Posts: 24,524
    Cosmo wrote:
    The only truth we know about God is... we simply don't know. We believe through some conduit, such as a religion... but, the truth is... we just don't know.

    Worth quoting - yet again. For my own pleasure.

    Why MUST we know, anyway?

    Reminds me of the line from the Simon & Garfunkel song - "the only truth I know is you".

    Yeah.
  • mikepegg44
    mikepegg44 Posts: 3,353
    pandora wrote:
    Cosmo wrote:

    The only truth we know about God is... we simply don't know. We believe through some conduit, such as a religion... but, the truth is... we just don't know.

    I must say there are an awful lot knowing what can not be known then.
    I would say it is more of a feeling factor.

    To start we must ask ourselves what do we have faith in?

    Faith is needed to achieve anything and everything we do.
    It is the basis to determination, vision, dedication.

    Do some only have faith with proof? With tangibles? in themselves? in others?
    in fact?

    While others have faith with feeling? an encompassing belief ... a knowing.

    Thought this lovely quote, I keep close, fits here ...
    it explains the knowing of Faith.

    "Faith is the bird that feels the light when the dawn is still dark."

    Rabindranath Tagore

    In deep thought we see that is our nature, what each of us brought with us.
    Feeling is believing is knowing.

    I have been wondering in the decades to come if there will be a massive return
    to God because it will appear the prophecies of religions are indeed coming true.
    Unfortunately that might be based in fear not feeling.

    Letting go of fear is the path to feeling.


    I don't really want to get in an argument about semantics with you, but you cannot know something without proof by definition. Proof is not located through looking at miracles and assigning a deity as the reason they occurred. feeling is believing maybe...but neither needed to know something. Facts either are or aren't...not believing them doesn't make them any less true. knowledge isn't based on faith. not trying to down play your belief system...I think belief systems are very important to individuals. But you cannot know the unknown through faith...you can believe something, you can feel something is true, but that doesn't necessarily make it so...that is the essence of faith to begin with...if the judeo-christian God revealed itself to all through fact it defeats the purpose of the free will granted to us to believe or not believe. Faith is believing in the absence of proof by definition. Philosophically, I think it actually demeans a person such as yourselves' faith to equate it to fact or "knowing."
    that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
    It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
    - Joe Rogan
  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    hedonist wrote:
    Cosmo wrote:
    The only truth we know about God is... we simply don't know. We believe through some conduit, such as a religion... but, the truth is... we just don't know.
    Worth quoting - yet again. For my own pleasure.

    Why MUST we know, anyway?

    Reminds me of the line from the Simon & Garfunkel song - "the only truth I know is you".

    Yeah.
    Hey, Hedo...
    And you are correct, there isn't a need to know... it is a want to know.
    People will seek out answers to questions which have no answers. For those questions, the only truthful answer is, 'I don't know'. Anyone can come up with any answer they want... which becomes 'truth' to them. But, if we all take a step out of ourselves and look at the answers in an objective light, we find... we just don't know.
    With religion, knowledge is mixed up into belief and regurgitaed out as 'truth'. Knowledge and belief are two completely different thing. But, one can lead to the other. But, it still does not mean it is true.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    I don't really want to get in an argument about semantics with you, but you cannot know something without proof by definition. Proof is not located through looking at miracles and assigning a deity as the reason they occurred. feeling is believing maybe...but neither needed to know something. Facts either are or aren't...not believing them doesn't make them any less true. knowledge isn't based on faith. not trying to down play your belief system...I think belief systems are very important to individuals. But you cannot know the unknown through faith...you can believe something, you can feel something is true, but that doesn't necessarily make it so...that is the essence of faith to begin with...if the judeo-christian God revealed itself to all through fact it defeats the purpose of the free will granted to us to believe or not believe. Faith is believing in the absence of proof by definition. Philosophically, I think it actually demeans a person such as yourselves' faith to equate it to fact or "knowing."
    ...
    You cut right to the essence of the matter. Belief is belief, knowledge is knowledge and cannot be substituted.
    Example: If I truly believe I can fly and I jump off a cliff. Does that mean I can fly?
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    hedonist wrote:
    Cosmo wrote:
    The only truth we know about God is... we simply don't know. We believe through some conduit, such as a religion... but, the truth is... we just don't know.

    Worth quoting - yet again. For my own pleasure.

    Why MUST we know, anyway?

    Reminds me of the line from the Simon & Garfunkel song - "the only truth I know is you".

    Yeah.
    it is not a must it is an IS

    no control over what you know
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,759
    pandora wrote:
    hedonist wrote:
    Cosmo wrote:
    The only truth we know about God is... we simply don't know. We believe through some conduit, such as a religion... but, the truth is... we just don't know.

    Worth quoting - yet again. For my own pleasure.

    Why MUST we know, anyway?

    Reminds me of the line from the Simon & Garfunkel song - "the only truth I know is you".

    Yeah.
    it is not a must it is an IS

    no control over what you know
    :roll:
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    Cosmo wrote:

    The only truth we know about God is... we simply don't know. We believe through some conduit, such as a religion... but, the truth is... we just don't know.

    I must say there are an awful lot knowing what can not be known then.
    I would say it is more of a feeling factor.

    To start we must ask ourselves what do we have faith in?

    Faith is needed to achieve anything and everything we do.
    It is the basis to determination, vision, dedication.

    Do some only have faith with proof? With tangibles? in themselves? in others?
    in fact?

    While others have faith with feeling? an encompassing belief ... a knowing.

    Thought this lovely quote, I keep close, fits here ...
    it explains the knowing of Faith.

    "Faith is the bird that feels the light when the dawn is still dark."

    Rabindranath Tagore

    In deep thought we see that is our nature, what each of us brought with us.
    Feeling is believing is knowing.

    I have been wondering in the decades to come if there will be a massive return
    to God because it will appear the prophecies of religions are indeed coming true.
    Unfortunately that might be based in fear not feeling.

    Letting go of fear is the path to feeling.


    I don't really want to get in an argument about semantics with you, but you cannot know something without proof by definition. Proof is not located through looking at miracles and assigning a deity as the reason they occurred. feeling is believing maybe...but neither needed to know something. Facts either are or aren't...not believing them doesn't make them any less true. knowledge isn't based on faith. not trying to down play your belief system...I think belief systems are very important to individuals. But you cannot know the unknown through faith...you can believe something, you can feel something is true, but that doesn't necessarily make it so...that is the essence of faith to begin with...if the judeo-christian God revealed itself to all through fact it defeats the purpose of the free will granted to us to believe or not believe. Faith is believing in the absence of proof by definition. Philosophically, I think it actually demeans a person such as yourselves' faith to equate it to fact or "knowing."
    I know I love my husband, I know that he loves me ... I feel this.
    I know I have two children ... I see this. I have lived childbirth.
    I know my loved ones left this world to journey on .... I feel this.
    I know there is a God ... I see, I feel, I have lived this.

    Those who do not believe can not believe that anyone knows God
    for the extremely simple fact, they do not believe.

    But they still have faith in something so they can understand then what it is to know.

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