OCCUPY WALL STREET - Spreading

RW81233 wrote:

the point of the protests are that neoliberal capitalism is unfair, unsustainable, and that the $600 mill we gave bankers, and the hundreds of millions of dollars we give owners of sports teams to build stadiums (the $500 mill to rebuild the Superdome post-Katrina is the MOST egregious form of rich people handouts to date), the tax breaks, kick backs, etc. are all various nodes of evidence about how stupid this particular form of capitalism is.

dont even get me started on stadiums...f'n joke...

While I am all for ending government backed crony capitalism, I don't see an end to MNC's and the bottom line... So why not create a situation where they have little influence in the government...and since it was already decided that they "are people"(citizens united) why not take away power from their enabler (the government). Kind of like if I don't want you to drink, I can go to your house and take away your beer, but if I don't stop people from bringing it to you what was the point?

i agree that there are jobs out there, but if salaries are stagnating and schooling prices rise then somethings going to break. take me for example finished a PhD (2-years of community college (where only 23% of students graduate with a 4-years degree) and no debt, 3-years of private college (where mommy's and daddy's make rich kids dreams come true) $15k b/c of major scholarship help, and work on the side, 6-years of graduate school at UMD (lived for 3 years in my uncle's basement until I couldn't do it anymore) $57k more debt. So I come out with a PhD and get offered $55k to teach at a Research IA institution with $72k in school loans, plus looking to buy a home with my wife who luckily had rich parents put her through 6 years of private school for a Master's Degree. Additionally, I've earned Base+Merit increases each of my first 3 years at this University because of my hard work and the school hasn't granted those increases once. In fact, they've asked me to take furloughs each year instead. Even though professors aren't seeing the money, tuition is increasing so people coming through this behind me are getting FUCKED, and are expected to keep taking starting salaries like I have with tons more debt?

RW81233 wrote:

i guess my questions would be why are the people unqualified? not like the obvious part, but more why haven't they been able to get the schooling needed? as for the others what makes their salary expectations unreasonable? isn't this particular form of capitalism the science of exploitation? by that i mean don't you plan on making more from your worker than you pay them...and if you can get away with it won't you pay them as little as you possibly can and hope that the best qualified person (which it seems you lucked into) takes the job?

Actually, yes and no. Of course, we hope the company benefits financially from his work. As the company does with me. And I know the numbers - I'd be a millionaire if I got to keep all the money I made for my company, and no I am not kidding. But, I didn't take the risk. I didn't put up the capital. I don't know if I'd make the same money if I set this all up myself. So, the owner of my company has every right to keep that return on his investment (which is more than just money). And, the same goes for the folks I hire.

But, then, I need to keep such a person happy. You can characterize that as I pay him as little as possible. I'll even go with that premise. But, you know what? If someone else comes along and says he's worth more, I lose him. So, I have to be smart even under that premise. Of course, in a recession, leverage returns more to the employer. But in "good times" leverage goes the other way and folks hop around like mad. Neither is wrong. That's free enterprise. (And BTW, as a result, I like to compensate my folks at the high end. The difference is usually minimal, but the loyalty, hapiness, etc. is usually worth it).

Inherent in all this is I have to make myself of value to a company in the first place. And that's what this interviewee did by demonstrating that he is willing to learn and having a background and education he could leverage into a totally different industry than he originally intended (and having the foresight and initiative to do so).

And, if I ultimately think nobody thinks I'm worth what I do, I can go out on my own and make it. But, I better be prepared to pay the piper should that fail.

i agree with everything you just said, but isn't the game then rigged so that someone with more capital (oftentimes born into the situation and given free handout education by their parents) has more chances to invest and fuck up. Case in point, my uncle grew up very poor in upstate NY, now he is a partner is a business making high end AV things in rich people's houses in DC. If his business fails his family is fucked (luckily he's doing well), whereas his partner (who grew up wealthy) has three or four businesses so if this one goes under, it sucks, but it's just one less christmas present under the tree. How is that a just and equal system?

pjhawks wrote:

RW81233 wrote:

i agree that there are jobs out there, but if salaries are stagnating and schooling prices rise then somethings going to break. take me for example finished a PhD (2-years of community college (where only 23% of students graduate with a 4-years degree) and no debt, 3-years of private college (where mommy's and daddy's make rich kids dreams come true) $15k b/c of major scholarship help, and work on the side, 6-years of graduate school at UMD (lived for 3 years in my uncle's basement until I couldn't do it anymore) $57k more debt. So I come out with a PhD and get offered $55k to teach at a Research IA institution with $72k in school loans, plus looking to buy a home with my wife who luckily had rich parents put her through 6 years of private school for a Master's Degree. Additionally, I've earned Base+Merit increases each of my first 3 years at this University because of my hard work and the school hasn't granted those increases once. In fact, they've asked me to take furloughs each year instead. Even though professors aren't seeing the money, tuition is increasing so people coming through this behind me are getting FUCKED, and are expected to keep taking starting salaries like I have with tons more debt?

since when was it mandated that IF you graduate college you are supposed to get a high paying job and should be able to immediately afford a nice house in a nice neighborhood. seems like you are aiming to be the same people you are supposedly protesting against.

and hey i understand being in debt sucks balls but living in your parents house/or uncle's basement in this country is still a lot better off than a hell of a lot of people in the world. let's not make it out to be 3rd world living that these graduates are living in.

that's not what my point was...it was basically saying how can you get mad about kids wanting higher pay out of college when their tuitions are increasing. I was also pointing out how super freaking lucky I was to ONLY have 72k in debt after getting a PhD...most people I know are crossing the 100k barrier after 4 years of college. There's no rule that says you get a high paying job by going to school, but jesus where is this money they are paying to school going, and why isn't it reflected in someone's pay somewhere?

RW81233 wrote:

i agree with everything you just said, but isn't the game then rigged so that someone with more capital (oftentimes born into the situation and given free handout education by their parents) has more chances to invest and fuck up. Case in point, my uncle grew up very poor in upstate NY, now he is a partner is a business making high end AV things in rich people's houses in DC. If his business fails his family is fucked (luckily he's doing well), whereas his partner (who grew up wealthy) has three or four businesses so if this one goes under, it sucks, but it's just one less christmas present under the tree. How is that a just and equal system?

You are right. Where you start out from does make a big difference in life.

What do you want to do about that? That begin to sound like jealousy. Nobody said life is fair. However, your uncle had the same right to life, liberty and the pursuit of hapiness as his partner (notice that does not say hapiness, but PURSUIT of happiness).

So, we should tax his partner because he has more wealth to begin with? Or should your Uncle make more in the business they share even if they do the same work and/or have equal investment b/c his partner has something else to make money on?

You seem to be proving the fact that folks think this OSW is all about folks worried about what the other guy has. You should be celebrating your Uncle's success. Sounds like a real American Dream Story.

i haven't read this entire thread ... but like i've been saying ... the whole thing needs to be blown up ... the game is rigged ... not everyone knows everything but everyone's foundation that big corporations and the gov't are complicit in this fraud is spot on ...

pjhawks wrote:

RW81233 wrote:

i agree with everything you just said, but isn't the game then rigged so that someone with more capital (oftentimes born into the situation and given free handout education by their parents) has more chances to invest and fuck up. Case in point, my uncle grew up very poor in upstate NY, now he is a partner is a business making high end AV things in rich people's houses in DC. If his business fails his family is fucked (luckily he's doing well), whereas his partner (who grew up wealthy) has three or four businesses so if this one goes under, it sucks, but it's just one less christmas present under the tree. How is that a just and equal system?

why does everything have to be equal? should Steve Job's kid have to go to a public school because you think it's not fair he can start his own business and fail because his daddy was successful? i really don't get that argument at all. just seems like this generation and this movement has this notion that everyone should earn $100k+ and have no bills, no debt, and no concerns. that's not really reality. there have been many generations who have lived paycheck-to-paycheck and survived and thrived. not sure why this generation thinks they are entitled to more than that.

If everything doesn't need to be equal, then the majority should force their hand and tax the stuffing out of the wealthy minority.

Why is it okay for somebody to be born into a bad situation, or to be extremely educated yet unable to find meaningful work because they lack connections, but it's not okay to tax one group that has enjoyed a massive advantage over the rest of the population?

And lets be honest, this generation doesn't earn anything close to $100k. I have three degrees and I barely hit the $50k mark. I don't have a problem with that. What I have a problem with is wealthy individuals telling me that I need to earn even less, give up on any basic social security and be prepared to be laid off so that governments can continue to pump large corporate turkeys full of taxpayer money they don't need; money which will inevitably be paid in bonuses to individuals who didn't earn them.

If you keep kicking down the middle class they might start to kick back.

RW81233 wrote:

pjhawks wrote:

RW81233 wrote:

i agree that there are jobs out there, but if salaries are stagnating and schooling prices rise then somethings going to break. take me for example finished a PhD (2-years of community college (where only 23% of students graduate with a 4-years degree) and no debt, 3-years of private college (where mommy's and daddy's make rich kids dreams come true) $15k b/c of major scholarship help, and work on the side, 6-years of graduate school at UMD (lived for 3 years in my uncle's basement until I couldn't do it anymore) $57k more debt. So I come out with a PhD and get offered $55k to teach at a Research IA institution with $72k in school loans, plus looking to buy a home with my wife who luckily had rich parents put her through 6 years of private school for a Master's Degree. Additionally, I've earned Base+Merit increases each of my first 3 years at this University because of my hard work and the school hasn't granted those increases once. In fact, they've asked me to take furloughs each year instead. Even though professors aren't seeing the money, tuition is increasing so people coming through this behind me are getting FUCKED, and are expected to keep taking starting salaries like I have with tons more debt?

since when was it mandated that IF you graduate college you are supposed to get a high paying job and should be able to immediately afford a nice house in a nice neighborhood. seems like you are aiming to be the same people you are supposedly protesting against.

and hey i understand being in debt sucks balls but living in your parents house/or uncle's basement in this country is still a lot better off than a hell of a lot of people in the world. let's not make it out to be 3rd world living that these graduates are living in.

that's not what my point was...it was basically saying how can you get mad about kids wanting higher pay out of college when their tuitions are increasing. I was also pointing out how super freaking lucky I was to ONLY have 72k in debt after getting a PhD...most people I know are crossing the 100k barrier after 4 years of college. There's no rule that says you get a high paying job by going to school, but jesus where is this money they are paying to school going, and why isn't it reflected in someone's pay somewhere?

Seriously, I really recommend you take an economics class. Just cause something is high in demand (which raises prices) does not mean that product (in this case - higher education) has a great value as an investment. Particularly, when lots of people have that product (higher education) already. It's simple supply and demand. Seriously, digest that for a moment. What you are saying here is very much, ridiculous.

Since you keep going to the PhD thing, I'll respond. I have a PhD and have ZERO loan debt. I decided to get my PhD because I weighed the cost vs benefit. I realized it would cost me a lot, but I was offered a grant and stipend, which helped "slightly" as an immediate benefit. If I hadn't gotten that, I may not have gone through with it (because I understood it's an investment and never thought the government would or should "bail me out"). Even with that though, I would be very poor in the immediate term for 5 to 6 years. Basically, I lost a lot of the "fun" I could have had in my 20s studying and living with my parents, while my friends went out and spent the money they made while working. Yet, I sacrificed and worked while I went to school to do the best I could to end school with limited debt.

Once I got my PhD, I only had so much debt, that I immediately paid off within a year. My point in mentioning this is not to brag, it's to say if this wasn't the case, I most likely wouldn't have gone back for a PhD. I'm not a moron, I thought it through. I looked at school as an investment. Sure, this investment could have gone sour. Who knows, maybe down the line it still will. But, to act as though the government.... the fucking government.... should be there to bail out my bad decisions is laughable. I hate that thought. Who the fuck is the government to be bailing out my poor decisions? should I count on that? Fuck no. Who the fuck is the government to be bailing out corporations bad decisions? That's why I hate the bailouts, it's the same story. Who the fuck is the government to be bailing out anyone's dumb decisions?... including yours.

When I got out of school for good and wasn't making quite as much as I wanted.... guess what I did? I realized that the job I had was "cake" compared to my friends. The reason it was cake: I had a PhD. And the truth: PhDs typically do very little real "hard" labor-intensive work. So, guess what I did.... I got ANOTHER job. OMG. Yes, two. So, I'm teaching college and working in research. I'm making money.... why?.... because I worked on it and didn't bitch at a protest in center city. Right now, I have two jobs and my wife is home with our child. That was important to me, and I worked on making it a reality.... with no help.

I'll end on this... When are we going to be responsible for our own fucking decisions? I'm so sick of this "woah is me"... I got a PhD and I can't find a job that pays enough... bullshit. Go to Africa and cry to them. Go to China and cry to them. They want what you have. And guess what, they won't stop until they get it. Go fucking work for it and stop bitching.

RW81233 wrote:

I'm understand this system isn't fair, and never was, but I'm not down with making that unfairness even more unfair. I don't think that in a country of innovators, dreamers, and whatever else we are told we are that we should live in a country that would not want to house, feed, educate, nurture, and raise our/my child/ren should something go wrong. Why don't we care and respect each other in a way that speaks to all of us in ways that all of us can understand?

inlet are you saying that if you are poor you shouldn't go get a PhD? If it's financially feasible only for the wealthy where is the equity in that? I've worked so many jobs I can't tell you, but I also got a second job to help us prepare for a child, and have chosen to teach winter and summer (when @ my institution I should either be on vacation or doing research) so that my child can grow up a lot more comfortably. I have worked really hard to get here, but when I look back at where I came from so did a lot of people who didn't get as lucky as me. Maybe it was luck and I should be happy, but I know I was not the smartest, best, or brightest kid in the school and I think it sucks that I get this and others couldn't fathom it.

No, I'm not saying "if you are poor you shouldn't get a PhD"! Where the fuck, pardon my language, did you get that from? I was fucking poor! I said that or should have. Yet, I got one! I also know plenty of "really, really poor" people.... PLENTY... who got their PhD.... guess where most of them where from? Give you a hint.... NOT THE U.S. Yet, they figured it out.... through DETERMINATION.

Difference between you and me:

I look at people who want something, and I see the world like they are "capable of attaining it if they stay focused".... your kind (from what I've read), at least in my opinion, look at the world and think "they are only capable if the government helps them". I say BULLSHIT to that.

Sorry, to be frank, but that's how I feel.