it's sad ... some people on here will give the tea party folk credit for standing up to the gov't yet dismiss this movement ...
this movement has been a long time coming ... it has support from all aspects of society ... there are rich people, poor people, young, old, christians, atheists, black, white, etc ...
it shouldn't take much to recognize the game is rigged but some folks here are apologists till the end ... :(
i agree. it is the people who don't understand it that are dismissing it. it is so typical of america these days.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
it's sad ... some people on here will give the tea party folk credit for standing up to the gov't yet dismiss this movement ...
this movement has been a long time coming ... it has support from all aspects of society ... there are rich people, poor people, young, old, christians, atheists, black, white, etc ...
it shouldn't take much to recognize the game is rigged but some folks here are apologists till the end ... :(
Polaris I don't consider myself an apologist by any stretch of the imagination. i got very annoyed at this so-called movement this week when i saw a story on one of the news about a bunch of college graduates complaining that they had upwards of $90,000 of college loan debt and now they can't pay it and they have to live with mommy and daddy. uhhh excuse me? did you not know taking out loans that they were going to be come due at some point. wtf? and as bad as this generation thinks they have it i mean they aren't living on the streets (oh god they have to live with mommy and daddy the horror...), 95% i'm sure have $200+ phones with plans that are probably close to $100.00 a month, they aren't living without shoes or food - are their lives really so terrible?
and the 99% could make a difference if they voted which almost all don't. don't vote don't bitch.
it's sad ... some people on here will give the tea party folk credit for standing up to the gov't yet dismiss this movement ...
this movement has been a long time coming ... it has support from all aspects of society ... there are rich people, poor people, young, old, christians, atheists, black, white, etc ...
it shouldn't take much to recognize the game is rigged but some folks here are apologists till the end ... :(
and the 99% could make a difference if they voted which almost all don't. don't vote don't bitch.
You really think that the protesters dont vote? They would protest but not vote?
it's sad ... some people on here will give the tea party folk credit for standing up to the gov't yet dismiss this movement ...
this movement has been a long time coming ... it has support from all aspects of society ... there are rich people, poor people, young, old, christians, atheists, black, white, etc ...
it shouldn't take much to recognize the game is rigged but some folks here are apologists till the end ... :(
and the 99% could make a difference if they voted which almost all don't. don't vote don't bitch.
You really think that the protesters dont vote? They would protest but not vote?
absolutely. have you seen the low turnouts in this country? just because you vote in one presidential election every 4 years doesn't make you a voter. there are local elections every year. how many people vote in every general election (i'll even give people a pass on primaries)? i'd be willing to bet very few, even of those protestors, are out voting every november. and often local elections are more important than a presidential one since those elected officials have way more direct affect on you and your community.
edit: of course those that don't vote will use the excuse that they don't like the candidates. anyone can run especially in local elections so not an excuse either.
Polaris I don't consider myself an apologist by any stretch of the imagination. i got very annoyed at this so-called movement this week when i saw a story on one of the news about a bunch of college graduates complaining that they had upwards of $90,000 of college loan debt and now they can't pay it and they have to live with mommy and daddy. uhhh excuse me? did you not know taking out loans that they were going to be come due at some point. wtf? and as bad as this generation thinks they have it i mean they aren't living on the streets (oh god they have to live with mommy and daddy the horror...), 95% i'm sure have $200+ phones with plans that are probably close to $100.00 a month, they aren't living without shoes or food - are their lives really so terrible?
and the 99% could make a difference if they voted which almost all don't. don't vote don't bitch.
this is the problem ... you and others are fixated on the apparent sense of entitlement ... i completely agree there is a narcissistic epidemic sweeping america ... but that is not what OWS is all about ... you guys are hung up on notions that are not really at the heart of the problem ...
the game is rigged ... the playing field is unfair ... and the people are being exploited ... it should be pretty obvious that certain segments of society are favoured ... this isn't about redistributing wealth in some egalitarian way ... it's about making the game fair for all ...
Polaris I don't consider myself an apologist by any stretch of the imagination. i got very annoyed at this so-called movement this week when i saw a story on one of the news about a bunch of college graduates complaining that they had upwards of $90,000 of college loan debt and now they can't pay it and they have to live with mommy and daddy. uhhh excuse me? did you not know taking out loans that they were going to be come due at some point. wtf? and as bad as this generation thinks they have it i mean they aren't living on the streets (oh god they have to live with mommy and daddy the horror...), 95% i'm sure have $200+ phones with plans that are probably close to $100.00 a month, they aren't living without shoes or food - are their lives really so terrible?
and the 99% could make a difference if they voted which almost all don't. don't vote don't bitch.
this is the problem ... you and others are fixated on the apparent sense of entitlement ... i completely agree there is a narcissistic epidemic sweeping america ... but that is not what OWS is all about ... you guys are hung up on notions that are not really at the heart of the problem ...
the game is rigged ... the playing field is unfair ... and the people are being exploited ... it should be pretty obvious that certain segments of society are favoured ... this isn't about redistributing wealth in some egalitarian way ... it's about making the game fair for all ...
i'd love hear what you and others are being denied in america. maybe it's not all equal but this is not 3rd world country where you are being denied basic necessities. feel free to enlighten me on what you don't have the opportunity for here in this country.
absolutely. have you seen the low turnouts in this country? just because you vote in one presidential election every 4 years doesn't make you a voter. there are local elections every year. how many people vote in every general election (i'll even give people a pass on primaries)? i'd be willing to bet very few, even of those protestors, are out voting every november. and often local elections are more important than a presidential one since those elected officials have way more direct affect on you and your community.
edit: of course those that don't vote will use the excuse that they don't like the candidates. anyone can run especially in local elections so not an excuse either.
you gotta remember that 99% is just a figure of speech here ... this is a small segment of the population actually doing the protesting ... like i mention in other topics - until people realize what the problem is ... you can't fix it ...
too many people aren't interested in learning why this movement is important and are just looking for ways they can dismiss it ...
i'd love hear what you and others are being denied in america. maybe it's not all equal but this is not 3rd world country where you are being denied basic necessities. feel free to enlighten me on what you don't have the opportunity for here in this country.
honestly ... go learn more about the movement ... this isn't a problem that can by explained in a few typed paragraphs ... i'd love to be able to sit here and explain it but i would essentially be gleaming info from all the other topics in this forum from bail outs, israeli occupation, war, global warming, tax cuts, etc ... this is about a corporatized gov't that serves the interest of the corporation and not the people ...
but just to throw you a bone so you don't think i'm just avoiding the question - i say this ... firstly, i am canadian but i spend a good time of my time in the states ... i just got back from 2 weeks in california and i'm in NYC at least 1 a month ... we get similar tv shows that you guys get up here but this is the big difference ...
down in the states - the biggest advertisers outside of coke and nike are pharmaceutical companies and PR firms ... i saw a commercial the other day saying the body can't tell the difference between high fructose corn syrup and real sugar paid for by the corn growers association ... a blatant lie ... how a special interest group like that can be allowed to broadcast lies that directly relate to public health is a microcosm of what is wrong ...
No, I'm not saying "if you are poor you shouldn't get a PhD"! Where the fuck, pardon my language, did you get that from? I was fucking poor! I said that or should have. Yet, I got one! I also know plenty of "really, really poor" people.... PLENTY... who got their PhD.... guess where most of them where from? Give you a hint.... NOT THE U.S. Yet, they figured it out.... through DETERMINATION.
Difference between you and me:
I look at people who want something, and I see the world like they are "capable of attaining it if they stay focused".... your kind (from what I've read), at least in my opinion, look at the world and think "they are only capable if the government helps them". I say BULLSHIT to that.
Sorry, to be frank, but that's how I feel.
Inlet seems like you and I are on the same page here and I don't have a PhD and i make enough to live modestly and i'm ok with that because it's my choices that have lead me here.
I feel a good portion of this generation's entitlement comes from the notion that every child should play/participate and every child gets a trophy sentiment that started oh about 20 years or so ago.
fair playing field?
never going to happen......honestly, i do not want a fair playing field. i only appreciate the opportunity.
even the animal kingdom has this figured out. GO ANTS!
agreed.. capitalism isnt about fairness(though i would like a system that is about fairness and a level playing field).. its about the opportunity to compete... or as i read somewhere the pursuit of happiness, not guaranteed happiness. and we compete...to what level we compete is up to us... and how much of our soul were willing to sacrifice to do so.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
i'd love hear what you and others are being denied in america. maybe it's not all equal but this is not 3rd world country where you are being denied basic necessities. feel free to enlighten me on what you don't have the opportunity for here in this country.
honestly ... go learn more about the movement ... this isn't a problem that can by explained in a few typed paragraphs ... i'd love to be able to sit here and explain it but i would essentially be gleaming info from all the other topics in this forum from bail outs, israeli occupation, war, global warming, tax cuts, etc ... this is about a corporatized gov't that serves the interest of the corporation and not the people ...
but just to throw you a bone so you don't think i'm just avoiding the question - i say this ... firstly, i am canadian but i spend a good time of my time in the states ... i just got back from 2 weeks in california and i'm in NYC at least 1 a month ... we get similar tv shows that you guys get up here but this is the big difference ...
down in the states - the biggest advertisers outside of coke and nike are pharmaceutical companies and PR firms ... i saw a commercial the other day saying the body can't tell the difference between high fructose corn syrup and real sugar paid for by the corn growers association ... a blatant lie ... how a special interest group like that can be allowed to broadcast lies that directly relate to public health is a microcosm of what is wrong ...
so what do you want government control of tv and avertising???
and hey i got a 52-inch Hi-Def TV with 700 channels so i don't watch commercials because it's my choice not too. again not 3rd world country living here.
look i'm not saying things are perfect or even great at this point, but it's not 3rd world country and it's not close to being the worst time in this countries history. this generation and my generation are living high off the hog compared to our great-grandparents and grandparents. an example is when i see a large portion of the country paying $100-$200 a month for phone service with internet, apps, and texting (and i have much of this technology but at times i question myself about the need) well it leads me to believe that the economic status of most of those people isn't quite as bleak as they make it out to be. to quote our favorite singer "i don't question our existence, i just question our modern needs" - to me there seems to be a lack of perspective going on.
i'd love hear what you and others are being denied in america. maybe it's not all equal but this is not 3rd world country where you are being denied basic necessities. feel free to enlighten me on what you don't have the opportunity for here in this country.
honestly ... go learn more about the movement ... this isn't a problem that can by explained in a few typed paragraphs ... i'd love to be able to sit here and explain it but i would essentially be gleaming info from all the other topics in this forum from bail outs, israeli occupation, war, global warming, tax cuts, etc ... this is about a corporatized gov't that serves the interest of the corporation and not the people ...
but just to throw you a bone so you don't think i'm just avoiding the question - i say this ... firstly, i am canadian but i spend a good time of my time in the states ... i just got back from 2 weeks in california and i'm in NYC at least 1 a month ... we get similar tv shows that you guys get up here but this is the big difference ...
down in the states - the biggest advertisers outside of coke and nike are pharmaceutical companies and PR firms ... i saw a commercial the other day saying the body can't tell the difference between high fructose corn syrup and real sugar paid for by the corn growers association ... a blatant lie ... how a special interest group like that can be allowed to broadcast lies that directly relate to public health is a microcosm of what is wrong ...
My issue is this:
You said corporatized government. If you feel that way, fair enough. But, if that's the case, why do these protest focus only on just the corporation as the evil entity.... or more specifically, Wall Street? Why is there such focus on the top 1% of income earners at these protests?
Most importantly:
Where's the focus on the other half of the word you used: corporatized government?
Government is not focused on at all at these protests. The way to change this system is to change government. If you're honest, you'd admit that a lot of these people are basically regurgitating what the Obama administration wants them to (the top 1% stuff is a direct line of his). Do you not see any irony in that? Why is he not being called out at these protests if the issue really is corporatized government? I mean, he is the President of the USA. Yet, you see no anti-Obama signs at these protests. Ironic.
fair playing field?
never going to happen......honestly, i do not want a fair playing field. i only appreciate the opportunity.
even the animal kingdom has this figured out. GO ANTS!
agreed.. capitalism isnt about fairness(though i would like a system that is about fairness and a level playing field).. its about the opportunity to compete... or as i read somewhere the pursuit of happiness, not guaranteed happiness. and we compete...to what level we compete is up to us... and how much of our soul were willing to sacrifice to do so.
Oh, but that's the thing - they don't want fairness. Is it fair that someone seleted a major that does not have the same financial prospects that costs the same as another major that does? Is it fair if the latter persons perhaps sacrificed some of her "fun" to do so but the former person pursued whatever it was they liked? Is it fair then that the sacrificer is now being asked to give money to the other (via loan breaks, tax hikes, whatever)?
That's not fair. Fairness is everyone has the chance to do what they'd like AND face the consequences of those decisions. Fairness is NOT getting to do whatever the hell it is you want to do and then turn around and say - well the game was rigged all along. You rich people only hire who you want to hire, and I'm not one of them. So, give me money.
Post edited by EdsonNascimento on
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
...
and hey i got a 52-inch Hi-Def TV with 700 channels so i don't watch commercials because it's my choice not too. again not 3rd world country living here.
..
700???? :shock: holy crap. ive only got 5 and thats more than enough considering the quality of the shows available..
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
i'd love hear what you and others are being denied in america. maybe it's not all equal but this is not 3rd world country where you are being denied basic necessities. feel free to enlighten me on what you don't have the opportunity for here in this country.
i think it is pretty obvious that people are angry because they do not have jobs. also, they do not have things like health insurance, which should be an inalienable right. that is a start to beginning to understand the movement.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,428
fair playing field?
never going to happen......honestly, i do not want a fair playing field. i only appreciate the opportunity.
even the animal kingdom has this figured out. GO ANTS!
agreed.. capitalism isnt about fairness(though i would like a system that is about fairness and a level playing field).. its about the opportunity to compete... or as i read somewhere the pursuit of happiness, not guaranteed happiness. and we compete...to what level we compete is up to us... and how much of our soul were willing to sacrifice to do so.
Oh, but that's the thing - they don't want fairness. Is it fair that someone seleted a major that does not have the same financial prospects that costs the same as another major that does? Is it fair if the latter persons perhaps sacrificed some of her "fun" to do so but the former person pursued whatever it was they liked? Is it fair then that the sacrificer is now being asked to give money to the other (via loan breaks, tax hikes, whatever)?
That's not fair. Fairness is everyone has the chance to do what they'd like AND face the consequences of those decisions. Fairness is NOT getting to do whatever the hell it is you want to do and then turn around and say - well the game was rigged all along. You rich people only hire who you want to hire, and I'm not one of them. So, give me money.
"well the game was rigged all along"
I have to say, I think this is true.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
i'd love hear what you and others are being denied in america. maybe it's not all equal but this is not 3rd world country where you are being denied basic necessities. feel free to enlighten me on what you don't have the opportunity for here in this country.
i think it is pretty obvious that people are angry because they do not have jobs. also, they do not have things like health insurance, which should be an inalienable right. that is a start to beginning to understand the movement.
Everyone does have health insurance. Can we please stop that? If you go to the ER, it's covered. Either through Medicaid or indigent care (which is then covered by commercial insurance, in effect). If you want a well care visit, there are certain clinics that are available that do that sort of thing cheaply (or free).
And there are jobs. We have plenty of openings. Just have the right training (which is easy to get) and appropriate expectations of compensation. And best of all we give our employees their coverage for free!!!!
If these folks spent as much energy learning about what openings there are, and getting qualified, they'd have jobs by now (and yes, this might include moving to another state - the horror!).
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
i'd love hear what you and others are being denied in america. maybe it's not all equal but this is not 3rd world country where you are being denied basic necessities. feel free to enlighten me on what you don't have the opportunity for here in this country.
i think it is pretty obvious that people are angry because they do not have jobs. also, they do not have things like health insurance, which should be an inalienable right. that is a start to beginning to understand the movement.
Everyone does have health insurance. Can we please stop that? If you go to the ER, it's covered. Either through Medicaid or indigent care (which is then covered by commercial insurance, in effect). If you want a well care visit, there are certain clinics that are available that do that sort of thing cheaply (or free).
And there are jobs. We have plenty of openings. Just have the right training (which is easy to get) and appropriate expectations of compensation. And best of all we give our employees their coverage for free!!!!
If these folks spent as much energy learning about what openings there are, and getting qualified, they'd have jobs by now (and yes, this might include moving to another state - the horror!).
they don't just want jobs they want jobs making a certain amount of money.
i'd love hear what you and others are being denied in america. maybe it's not all equal but this is not 3rd world country where you are being denied basic necessities. feel free to enlighten me on what you don't have the opportunity for here in this country.
i think it is pretty obvious that people are angry because they do not have jobs. also, they do not have things like health insurance, which should be an inalienable right. that is a start to beginning to understand the movement.
So, let's just say do not have jobs, it's who's fault that they have no jobs?
I've seen jobs out there, it's just below what these people (most likely) want to make.
"well the game was rigged all along"
I have to say, I think this is true.
Explain. How did I get my job? I don't know any of the proverbial 1% (Well, I do now, but I didn't when I got this job).
Was I just lucky? Was it because I came from a Middle Class family?
It's easy to sit back and say it's rigged. That's a great rationalization for failure. Instead of picking yourself back up, blame someone else. Our parents suck. We are the children of the children of the 60's. And it shows.
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
fair playing field?
never going to happen......honestly, i do not want a fair playing field. i only appreciate the opportunity.
even the animal kingdom has this figured out. GO ANTS!
agreed.. capitalism isnt about fairness(though i would like a system that is about fairness and a level playing field).. its about the opportunity to compete... or as i read somewhere the pursuit of happiness, not guaranteed happiness. and we compete...to what level we compete is up to us... and how much of our soul were willing to sacrifice to do so.
Oh, but that's the thing - they don't want fairness. Is it fair that someone seleted a major that does not have the same financial prospects that costs the same as another major that does? Is it fair if the latter persons perhaps sacrificed some of her "fun" to do so but the former person pursued whatever it was they liked? Is it fair then that the sacrificer is now being asked to give money to the other (via loan breaks, tax hikes, whatever)?
That's not fair. Fairness is everyone has the chance to do what they'd like AND face the consequences of those decisions. Fairness is NOT getting to do whatever the hell it is you want to do and then turn around and say - well the game was rigged all along. You rich people only higher who you want to higher, and I'm not one of them. So, give me money.
fair? who said life is meant to be fair? why do people expect fairness? the system we live in is about profit.. theres no fairness there.. its irrelevant.
i chose a major, not for its financial prospects but because i knew it was something id excel in and something that i had a great interest in. it also set me up for my postgrad. how much id profit financially from my decision at the other end never entered my mind. its just not what im about. people need to stop thinking the current system owes them anything.. if they want a system where 'fairness' is a major factor then they need to disengage from this current one and pursue an alternate. it was their choice to play the game.. and if they did not know the implications of that then they cant turn around now and blame the system they chose to engage with. but i do agree the sytem is geared towards a certain demographic... and it isnt the working class.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,428
"well the game was rigged all along"
I have to say, I think this is true.
Explain. How did I get my job? I don't know any of the proverbial 1% (Well, I do now, but I didn't when I got this job).
Was I just lucky? Was it because I came from a Middle Class family?
It's easy to sit back and say it's rigged. That's a great rationalization for failure. Instead of picking yourself back up, blame someone else. Our parents suck. We are the children of the children of the 60's. And it shows.
To tell you the truth, I think I've just lived long enough to learn how to play the game when I need to and invent my own when I can (there are advantages to being an old fart ). But I'm glad I'm not 24 living in todays world because I really do believe that today game is set up for only the very luckiest or the very wiliest to win- more so now than in 1969 when we could enter our adulthood with a "who gives a flying fuck, we can do whatever we want attitude" and still do ok later on.
I also think it's more difficult to pick oneself up from failure today. I had to pick myself up from a failed life (not of my own doing, but anyone can be injured or lose their job or have a run of bad luck and thus "fail") ten years ago before the economy tanked. I had to work very hard to do so, had some help along the way, had a lot of luck and the world was an easier place- even just 10 years ago. I know a few people today in similar positions and they're sweating bullets. I do what I can... but I'm not Warren Buffett, I can only do so much, so I support the OWS movement.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
so what do you want government control of tv and avertising???
and hey i got a 52-inch Hi-Def TV with 700 channels so i don't watch commercials because it's my choice not too. again not 3rd world country living here.
look i'm not saying things are perfect or even great at this point, but it's not 3rd world country and it's not close to being the worst time in this countries history. this generation and my generation are living high off the hog compared to our great-grandparents and grandparents. an example is when i see a large portion of the country paying $100-$200 a month for phone service with internet, apps, and texting (and i have much of this technology but at times i question myself about the need) well it leads me to believe that the economic status of most of those people isn't quite as bleak as they make it out to be. to quote our favorite singer "i don't question our existence, i just question our modern needs" - to me there seems to be a lack of perspective going on.
absolutely ... it's called fraud ... it's born from the same principles that allow your gov't to send kids to a war that has killed many innocent people all in the interests of corporate greed ... it's much easier to exploit when the truth is not a requirement ...
again - i don't disagree with what you are saying about people in general ... let's face it - most people are stupid ... a lot of their debt is self-inflicted but think about it ... this country runs on these people ... imagine if people didn't carry the debt they did ... that means they aren't spending ... guess what happens then?
but again - that is separate from this ... it's about how the rules of the game favours the rich and powerful ... and how the public interest is not even a consideration ... it's fucked up - take the prison system ... laws are passed that have ridiculous prison terms for relatively minor offenses so that they ensure a thriving prison population ... look at the incarceration rate by country ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... ation_rate
the US is #1 ... how is that remotely reasonable for such a supposed wealthy and prosperous country? ... this is what i'm talking about ... everything is done in the interests of corporations ...
You said corporatized government. If you feel that way, fair enough. But, if that's the case, why do these protest focus only on just the corporation as the evil entity.... or more specifically, Wall Street? Why is there such focus on the top 1% of income earners at these protests?
Most importantly:
Where's the focus on the other half of the word you used: corporatized government?
Government is not focused on at all at these protests. The way to change this system is to change government. If you're honest, you'd admit that a lot of these people are basically regurgitating what the Obama administration wants them to (the top 1% stuff is a direct line of his). Do you not see any irony in that? Why is he not being called out at these protests if the issue really is corporatized government? I mean, he is the President of the USA. Yet, you see no anti-Obama signs at these protests. Ironic.
well ... that's a very valid point ... but the movement has to start somewhere ...
right now, the movement is very early in its infancy and the message is obviously not very clear ... but the simple fact is that the so called "1%" are the ones who are profiting from their unwillingness to pay what this movement argues is their "fair" share of taxes ... because of loopholes and the such, these folks don't pay the taxes many feel they should and in return the gov't has to borrow money to sustain itself and who are they borrowing money from? ... the 1%!! ...
yes ... the gov't is complicit in allowing corporations to take over but the movement needs to first establish the role of these powerful interests ...
You said corporatized government. If you feel that way, fair enough. But, if that's the case, why do these protest focus only on just the corporation as the evil entity.... or more specifically, Wall Street? Why is there such focus on the top 1% of income earners at these protests?
Most importantly:
Where's the focus on the other half of the word you used: corporatized government?
Government is not focused on at all at these protests. The way to change this system is to change government. If you're honest, you'd admit that a lot of these people are basically regurgitating what the Obama administration wants them to (the top 1% stuff is a direct line of his). Do you not see any irony in that? Why is he not being called out at these protests if the issue really is corporatized government? I mean, he is the President of the USA. Yet, you see no anti-Obama signs at these protests. Ironic.
well ... that's a very valid point ... but the movement has to start somewhere ...
right now, the movement is very early in its infancy and the message is obviously not very clear ... but the simple fact is that the so called "1%" are the ones who are profiting from their unwillingness to pay what this movement argues is their "fair" share of taxes ... because of loopholes and the such, these folks don't pay the taxes many feel they should and in return the gov't has to borrow money to sustain itself and who are they borrowing money from? ... the 1%!! ...
yes ... the gov't is complicit in allowing corporations to take over but the movement needs to first establish the role of these powerful interests ...
the movement doesn't want the 1% to pay their 'fair share' they want them to pay more because they have more. a fair share would be the same income tax rate for every american but it reality a flat tax is way more unfair to the poor than the rich...so don't tell me it is about fair share because it's not. it's about making those with more pay more than their fair share because they have more to give. call it what it is - pay more beause you have more because calling it 'fair' share is just bogus.
the movement doesn't want the 1% to pay their 'fair share' they want them to pay more because they have more. a fair share would be the same income tax rate for every american but it reality a flat tax is way more unfair to the poor than the rich...so don't tell me it is about fair share because it's not. it's about making those with more pay more than their fair share because they have more to give. call it what it is - pay more beause you have more because calling it 'fair' share is just bogus.
fair is subjective for sure ... back in war times ... the tax rate for the wealthy (as agreed to by republicans) was like 94% ... one could argue that we are in war times now ... seeing as that's where most of the money is spent on these days ...
i spoke of this with inlet13 in some other thread ... when you have such a disparity and inequal distribution of wealth - this is what happens ... the question is what has caused this prosperity gap and whether or not one thinks its a good thing ...
the movement doesn't want the 1% to pay their 'fair share' they want them to pay more because they have more. a fair share would be the same income tax rate for every american but it reality a flat tax is way more unfair to the poor than the rich...so don't tell me it is about fair share because it's not. it's about making those with more pay more than their fair share because they have more to give. call it what it is - pay more beause you have more because calling it 'fair' share is just bogus.
fair is subjective for sure ... back in war times ... the tax rate for the wealthy (as agreed to by republicans) was like 94% ... one could argue that we are in war times now ... seeing as that's where most of the money is spent on these days ...
i spoke of this with inlet13 in some other thread ... when you have such a disparity and inequal distribution of wealth - this is what happens ... the question is what has caused this prosperity gap and whether or not one thinks its a good thing ...
i think we agree they should pay more...i'm just saying don't call it a fair tax. i'd respect the movement more if they came out and said they want those fuckers to pay more because they have more.
also it's a slippery slope to complain about executives getting paid at such a higher rate. can you really tell a private corporation what to pay it's employees? and should the government? i said in this thread before the only way to hurt a corporation is to hurt their bottom line. marching or camping will have no effect if we continue to use their products and services.
and i know the argument is going to be used about the bailouts and how much they make on wall street but the fact is we had to bailout the banks or our economy would be in much much worse shape than it currently is. however we had gotten to that point wasn't important, it needed to be done at the time.
I've missed a few pages, but looking back people are making trophy analogies, and claims of entitlement, and all that kind of stuff...so let's get real with this. First, I do acknowledge that there is a set of people out there that just want handouts and that's NOT cool, but I believe they are in the minority. Anyway if we want to talk about entitlements lets think about this in a few different ways:
1. I know 204 chords and Mike knows 200, but Mike grew up in a wealthy family and has 8 guitars. I grew up poor and have 1, and it broke. The way taxes used to work would have allowed me to buy a second one, or I would receive enough social welfare to get that second one. However, that time is over and I am fucked. Now Mike doesn't pay taxes (or very little since most of his loot is stashed overseas) owns 400 guitars (reflective of the shift in CEO to worker pay gap), and I own that same broken one, and he bitches that it's entitlement for ME to ask for the money to get that one guitar. Who's entitled?
2. My wife and in-laws live in a wealthy part of Mass., got to go to the best public (and private for a time) high schools in the area, that prepared them for success once they graduated high school. They got the best teachers, the best training for SATs, and were provided a comfortable living situation. All three went to private colleges for a combined 14-years, costing upwards of $700k, and not a one owes for a school loan. Two of them work in the financial industry getting jobs because their dad is a big name and because of where they went to school. I told you my school history, and what I did to get through a PhD "only" owing $72k for my efforts. Who's entitled?
3. Inlet you talked about living at home for 6 years while you pursued your PhD...did you pay your parents rent? What about the fact that you were lucky enough to have parents living close to your University, with room in their house to take you in? Like I said I lived in my Uncle's basement paying cut-rate rent, and cooking dinners to make up for it. Lucky as shit to do so. We did sacrifice to get PhD's but we were both entitled and lucky.
Finally someone asked the question about whether Steve Jobs children should have to go to public school, and I am saying yes, if you are against entitlements and free handouts, then what gives those kids the right to segregate themselves with other rich kids? Of course this is absurd, but maybe now you get how absurd it is to call one thing entitlement, and the other capitalism.
You said corporatized government. If you feel that way, fair enough. But, if that's the case, why do these protest focus only on just the corporation as the evil entity.... or more specifically, Wall Street? Why is there such focus on the top 1% of income earners at these protests?
Most importantly:
Where's the focus on the other half of the word you used: corporatized government?
Government is not focused on at all at these protests. The way to change this system is to change government. If you're honest, you'd admit that a lot of these people are basically regurgitating what the Obama administration wants them to (the top 1% stuff is a direct line of his). Do you not see any irony in that? Why is he not being called out at these protests if the issue really is corporatized government? I mean, he is the President of the USA. Yet, you see no anti-Obama signs at these protests. Ironic.
well ... that's a very valid point ... but the movement has to start somewhere ...
right now, the movement is very early in its infancy and the message is obviously not very clear ... but the simple fact is that the so called "1%" are the ones who are profiting from their unwillingness to pay what this movement argues is their "fair" share of taxes ... because of loopholes and the such, these folks don't pay the taxes many feel they should and in return the gov't has to borrow money to sustain itself and who are they borrowing money from? ... the 1%!! ...
yes ... the gov't is complicit in allowing corporations to take over but the movement needs to first establish the role of these powerful interests ...
Your second paragraph is a complete contradiction on what you said these protest boil down to. Complaining about who's taxed what is....
...a government issue.
Yet, government isn't really taking any heat at these things. It's a contradiction.
Comments
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Polaris I don't consider myself an apologist by any stretch of the imagination. i got very annoyed at this so-called movement this week when i saw a story on one of the news about a bunch of college graduates complaining that they had upwards of $90,000 of college loan debt and now they can't pay it and they have to live with mommy and daddy. uhhh excuse me? did you not know taking out loans that they were going to be come due at some point. wtf? and as bad as this generation thinks they have it i mean they aren't living on the streets (oh god they have to live with mommy and daddy the horror...), 95% i'm sure have $200+ phones with plans that are probably close to $100.00 a month, they aren't living without shoes or food - are their lives really so terrible?
and the 99% could make a difference if they voted which almost all don't. don't vote don't bitch.
You really think that the protesters dont vote? They would protest but not vote?
absolutely. have you seen the low turnouts in this country? just because you vote in one presidential election every 4 years doesn't make you a voter. there are local elections every year. how many people vote in every general election (i'll even give people a pass on primaries)? i'd be willing to bet very few, even of those protestors, are out voting every november. and often local elections are more important than a presidential one since those elected officials have way more direct affect on you and your community.
edit: of course those that don't vote will use the excuse that they don't like the candidates. anyone can run especially in local elections so not an excuse either.
this is the problem ... you and others are fixated on the apparent sense of entitlement ... i completely agree there is a narcissistic epidemic sweeping america ... but that is not what OWS is all about ... you guys are hung up on notions that are not really at the heart of the problem ...
the game is rigged ... the playing field is unfair ... and the people are being exploited ... it should be pretty obvious that certain segments of society are favoured ... this isn't about redistributing wealth in some egalitarian way ... it's about making the game fair for all ...
i'd love hear what you and others are being denied in america. maybe it's not all equal but this is not 3rd world country where you are being denied basic necessities. feel free to enlighten me on what you don't have the opportunity for here in this country.
you gotta remember that 99% is just a figure of speech here ... this is a small segment of the population actually doing the protesting ... like i mention in other topics - until people realize what the problem is ... you can't fix it ...
too many people aren't interested in learning why this movement is important and are just looking for ways they can dismiss it ...
never going to happen......honestly, i do not want a fair playing field. i only appreciate the opportunity.
even the animal kingdom has this figured out. GO ANTS!
honestly ... go learn more about the movement ... this isn't a problem that can by explained in a few typed paragraphs ... i'd love to be able to sit here and explain it but i would essentially be gleaming info from all the other topics in this forum from bail outs, israeli occupation, war, global warming, tax cuts, etc ... this is about a corporatized gov't that serves the interest of the corporation and not the people ...
but just to throw you a bone so you don't think i'm just avoiding the question - i say this ... firstly, i am canadian but i spend a good time of my time in the states ... i just got back from 2 weeks in california and i'm in NYC at least 1 a month ... we get similar tv shows that you guys get up here but this is the big difference ...
down in the states - the biggest advertisers outside of coke and nike are pharmaceutical companies and PR firms ... i saw a commercial the other day saying the body can't tell the difference between high fructose corn syrup and real sugar paid for by the corn growers association ... a blatant lie ... how a special interest group like that can be allowed to broadcast lies that directly relate to public health is a microcosm of what is wrong ...
Agreed.
<object height="81" width="100%"> <param name="movie" value="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869"></param> <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param> <embed allowscriptaccess="always" height="81" src="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="100%"></embed> </object> <span><a href=" - In the Fire (demo)</a> by <a href="
agreed.. capitalism isnt about fairness(though i would like a system that is about fairness and a level playing field).. its about the opportunity to compete... or as i read somewhere the pursuit of happiness, not guaranteed happiness. and we compete...to what level we compete is up to us... and how much of our soul were willing to sacrifice to do so.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
so what do you want government control of tv and avertising???
and hey i got a 52-inch Hi-Def TV with 700 channels so i don't watch commercials because it's my choice not too. again not 3rd world country living here.
look i'm not saying things are perfect or even great at this point, but it's not 3rd world country and it's not close to being the worst time in this countries history. this generation and my generation are living high off the hog compared to our great-grandparents and grandparents. an example is when i see a large portion of the country paying $100-$200 a month for phone service with internet, apps, and texting (and i have much of this technology but at times i question myself about the need) well it leads me to believe that the economic status of most of those people isn't quite as bleak as they make it out to be. to quote our favorite singer "i don't question our existence, i just question our modern needs" - to me there seems to be a lack of perspective going on.
My issue is this:
You said corporatized government. If you feel that way, fair enough. But, if that's the case, why do these protest focus only on just the corporation as the evil entity.... or more specifically, Wall Street? Why is there such focus on the top 1% of income earners at these protests?
Most importantly:
Where's the focus on the other half of the word you used: corporatized government?
Government is not focused on at all at these protests. The way to change this system is to change government. If you're honest, you'd admit that a lot of these people are basically regurgitating what the Obama administration wants them to (the top 1% stuff is a direct line of his). Do you not see any irony in that? Why is he not being called out at these protests if the issue really is corporatized government? I mean, he is the President of the USA. Yet, you see no anti-Obama signs at these protests. Ironic.
<object height="81" width="100%"> <param name="movie" value="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869"></param> <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param> <embed allowscriptaccess="always" height="81" src="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="100%"></embed> </object> <span><a href=" - In the Fire (demo)</a> by <a href="
Oh, but that's the thing - they don't want fairness. Is it fair that someone seleted a major that does not have the same financial prospects that costs the same as another major that does? Is it fair if the latter persons perhaps sacrificed some of her "fun" to do so but the former person pursued whatever it was they liked? Is it fair then that the sacrificer is now being asked to give money to the other (via loan breaks, tax hikes, whatever)?
That's not fair. Fairness is everyone has the chance to do what they'd like AND face the consequences of those decisions. Fairness is NOT getting to do whatever the hell it is you want to do and then turn around and say - well the game was rigged all along. You rich people only hire who you want to hire, and I'm not one of them. So, give me money.
700???? :shock: holy crap. ive only got 5 and thats more than enough considering the quality of the shows available..
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
"well the game was rigged all along"
I have to say, I think this is true.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Everyone does have health insurance. Can we please stop that? If you go to the ER, it's covered. Either through Medicaid or indigent care (which is then covered by commercial insurance, in effect). If you want a well care visit, there are certain clinics that are available that do that sort of thing cheaply (or free).
And there are jobs. We have plenty of openings. Just have the right training (which is easy to get) and appropriate expectations of compensation. And best of all we give our employees their coverage for free!!!!
If these folks spent as much energy learning about what openings there are, and getting qualified, they'd have jobs by now (and yes, this might include moving to another state - the horror!).
they don't just want jobs they want jobs making a certain amount of money.
So, let's just say do not have jobs, it's who's fault that they have no jobs?
I've seen jobs out there, it's just below what these people (most likely) want to make.
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Explain. How did I get my job? I don't know any of the proverbial 1% (Well, I do now, but I didn't when I got this job).
Was I just lucky? Was it because I came from a Middle Class family?
It's easy to sit back and say it's rigged. That's a great rationalization for failure. Instead of picking yourself back up, blame someone else. Our parents suck. We are the children of the children of the 60's. And it shows.
fair? who said life is meant to be fair? why do people expect fairness? the system we live in is about profit.. theres no fairness there.. its irrelevant.
i chose a major, not for its financial prospects but because i knew it was something id excel in and something that i had a great interest in. it also set me up for my postgrad. how much id profit financially from my decision at the other end never entered my mind. its just not what im about. people need to stop thinking the current system owes them anything.. if they want a system where 'fairness' is a major factor then they need to disengage from this current one and pursue an alternate. it was their choice to play the game.. and if they did not know the implications of that then they cant turn around now and blame the system they chose to engage with. but i do agree the sytem is geared towards a certain demographic... and it isnt the working class.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I also think it's more difficult to pick oneself up from failure today. I had to pick myself up from a failed life (not of my own doing, but anyone can be injured or lose their job or have a run of bad luck and thus "fail") ten years ago before the economy tanked. I had to work very hard to do so, had some help along the way, had a lot of luck and the world was an easier place- even just 10 years ago. I know a few people today in similar positions and they're sweating bullets. I do what I can... but I'm not Warren Buffett, I can only do so much, so I support the OWS movement.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
absolutely ... it's called fraud ... it's born from the same principles that allow your gov't to send kids to a war that has killed many innocent people all in the interests of corporate greed ... it's much easier to exploit when the truth is not a requirement ...
again - i don't disagree with what you are saying about people in general ... let's face it - most people are stupid ... a lot of their debt is self-inflicted but think about it ... this country runs on these people ... imagine if people didn't carry the debt they did ... that means they aren't spending ... guess what happens then?
but again - that is separate from this ... it's about how the rules of the game favours the rich and powerful ... and how the public interest is not even a consideration ... it's fucked up - take the prison system ... laws are passed that have ridiculous prison terms for relatively minor offenses so that they ensure a thriving prison population ... look at the incarceration rate by country ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... ation_rate
the US is #1 ... how is that remotely reasonable for such a supposed wealthy and prosperous country? ... this is what i'm talking about ... everything is done in the interests of corporations ...
well ... that's a very valid point ... but the movement has to start somewhere ...
right now, the movement is very early in its infancy and the message is obviously not very clear ... but the simple fact is that the so called "1%" are the ones who are profiting from their unwillingness to pay what this movement argues is their "fair" share of taxes ... because of loopholes and the such, these folks don't pay the taxes many feel they should and in return the gov't has to borrow money to sustain itself and who are they borrowing money from? ... the 1%!! ...
yes ... the gov't is complicit in allowing corporations to take over but the movement needs to first establish the role of these powerful interests ...
the movement doesn't want the 1% to pay their 'fair share' they want them to pay more because they have more. a fair share would be the same income tax rate for every american but it reality a flat tax is way more unfair to the poor than the rich...so don't tell me it is about fair share because it's not. it's about making those with more pay more than their fair share because they have more to give. call it what it is - pay more beause you have more because calling it 'fair' share is just bogus.
fair is subjective for sure ... back in war times ... the tax rate for the wealthy (as agreed to by republicans) was like 94% ... one could argue that we are in war times now ... seeing as that's where most of the money is spent on these days ...
i spoke of this with inlet13 in some other thread ... when you have such a disparity and inequal distribution of wealth - this is what happens ... the question is what has caused this prosperity gap and whether or not one thinks its a good thing ...
i think we agree they should pay more...i'm just saying don't call it a fair tax. i'd respect the movement more if they came out and said they want those fuckers to pay more because they have more.
also it's a slippery slope to complain about executives getting paid at such a higher rate. can you really tell a private corporation what to pay it's employees? and should the government? i said in this thread before the only way to hurt a corporation is to hurt their bottom line. marching or camping will have no effect if we continue to use their products and services.
and i know the argument is going to be used about the bailouts and how much they make on wall street but the fact is we had to bailout the banks or our economy would be in much much worse shape than it currently is. however we had gotten to that point wasn't important, it needed to be done at the time.
1. I know 204 chords and Mike knows 200, but Mike grew up in a wealthy family and has 8 guitars. I grew up poor and have 1, and it broke. The way taxes used to work would have allowed me to buy a second one, or I would receive enough social welfare to get that second one. However, that time is over and I am fucked. Now Mike doesn't pay taxes (or very little since most of his loot is stashed overseas) owns 400 guitars (reflective of the shift in CEO to worker pay gap), and I own that same broken one, and he bitches that it's entitlement for ME to ask for the money to get that one guitar. Who's entitled?
2. My wife and in-laws live in a wealthy part of Mass., got to go to the best public (and private for a time) high schools in the area, that prepared them for success once they graduated high school. They got the best teachers, the best training for SATs, and were provided a comfortable living situation. All three went to private colleges for a combined 14-years, costing upwards of $700k, and not a one owes for a school loan. Two of them work in the financial industry getting jobs because their dad is a big name and because of where they went to school. I told you my school history, and what I did to get through a PhD "only" owing $72k for my efforts. Who's entitled?
3. Inlet you talked about living at home for 6 years while you pursued your PhD...did you pay your parents rent? What about the fact that you were lucky enough to have parents living close to your University, with room in their house to take you in? Like I said I lived in my Uncle's basement paying cut-rate rent, and cooking dinners to make up for it. Lucky as shit to do so. We did sacrifice to get PhD's but we were both entitled and lucky.
Finally someone asked the question about whether Steve Jobs children should have to go to public school, and I am saying yes, if you are against entitlements and free handouts, then what gives those kids the right to segregate themselves with other rich kids? Of course this is absurd, but maybe now you get how absurd it is to call one thing entitlement, and the other capitalism.
Your second paragraph is a complete contradiction on what you said these protest boil down to. Complaining about who's taxed what is....
...a government issue.
Yet, government isn't really taking any heat at these things. It's a contradiction.
<object height="81" width="100%"> <param name="movie" value="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869"></param> <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param> <embed allowscriptaccess="always" height="81" src="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="100%"></embed> </object> <span><a href=" - In the Fire (demo)</a> by <a href="