This is what an abortion looks like

Hugh Freaking Dillon · September 2010

I never said most men are like me. I said that the woman doing all the work is no longer the majority. I only know this through personal experience in life, knowing other fathers through work and personal acquaintances and the like. I don't think there can be any data to quantify that. At least none that I know of.

Of course you can't fault the woman for nature. My point is I can't stand the bullshit argument that some women resort to when they've run out of meaningful points: "I walked around like a penguin and shot a turkey through a straw and you want to be consulted on (insert whatever here)??". It's BS. It's a position that only women, in my experience, that have deadbeat men in their lives take.

scb wrote:

Paul David wrote:

callen wrote:

As to a mans rights????!!!!!????? Are you kidding me? You bust a nut, if the womans lucky 15 minutes of effort. Then the womans body is stressed to the max with pregnacy for 9 months. She ultimately takes care of the baby 99.9999% of the time after birth.....my view is a man has NO right to tell a woman what to do with her body.

hello, angry woman!

You have NO idea what you are talking about. I am a father of two, and I take care of my girls just as much as my wife does. Your assessment is from the 50's, and has no basis in reality. If this is YOUR personal experience, then my sympathy is with you, but that is by no means the majority anymore.

If I got a woman pregnant, and she wanted to abort, your damn right she'd better fucking consult me. It's my kid too. Don't bring that "the woman has to carry it for 9 months" shit. That's not a choice any man can make. That's nature. You can't fault a man for that.

I think it's great that you're a good partner and father. You have my respect for that. But I'd like to see some sort of data showing that most men are like you.

Also, you can't fault a woman for nature either, can you?

_ · September 2010

Paul David wrote:

I think the point is that you presented an argument based in only partial fact. You said you were not posting any position on this, but you clearly did by even starting it and stating that if anyone can see a person in that picture they needed to speak up. You are obviously pro-choice, and you wanted people to tell you why you shouldn't be, based on the photos that you provided. And you are not "allowing" any argument based in anything beyond your position. Yes, the majority of abortions are done in the first several weeks of gestation. So?

I've already stated that I'm pro-choice, but I don't see your point, really. You say that there is no person in that picture so that it's not really murder, or whatever buzzword pro-lifers use these days.

Does it really matter what gimme calls "cellular goo" looks like to know that it's a living organism? We all know that there isn't a 6 foot person the moment conception happens, so again, I'll ask you what you were looking for with your presentation?

I appreciate your perspective, but I think you're missing the narrow focus of the thread. That, and the fact that everyone here already knows my positions on all those things, so my point wasn't to rehash or re-prove them, nor did I "want people to tell me why I shouldn't be pro-choice".

I have also made no statements about murder, cellular goo, living organisms, or 6-foot people. I am happy to have those conversations elsewhere, but they are not relevant to this thread.

What I was looking for in my presentation was a realization that most abortions are not represented by the images with which we are constantly bombarded.

Perhaps I shouldn't have said, "For all of you who think having an abortion necessarily kills a person, please identify the person in these photographs" - but I think everyone has missed my use of the word "necessarily". I am not (in this thread or for this reason or in this way) suggesting that there is no person to be found in ANY abortion photo - I am saying there is not a person to be found in EVERY abortion photo. And I never took that further to say that abortion is okay or that everyone should be pro-choice. Some of you are just extrapolating.

Hugh Freaking Dillon · September 2010

no apology necessary. I thought you meant a stranger, not a female friend who I just happened to bang one night.

(yeah, I guess that's happened!

)

But the end result is the same for me. I would want to know, and I feel that I deserve that courtesy. But I guess maybe I can see the woman's perspective on it. "why bother? he's just going to be all weird and it's going to make this more difficult". I guess the stereotypical male has been shown to act this way, I just don't think it's the norm anymore, and more woman in these situations that many men would actually WANT to know.

catefrances wrote:

i apologise. i was thinking of a situation where they actually had a conversation before the drunken sex part kicked in. not one of those hey baby(hiccup) wanna fuck? situations.

Hugh Freaking Dillon · September 2010

very well then. thanks for explaining, and I obviously misunderstood your intentions.

scb wrote:

Paul David wrote:

I think the point is that you presented an argument based in only partial fact. You said you were not posting any position on this, but you clearly did by even starting it and stating that if anyone can see a person in that picture they needed to speak up. You are obviously pro-choice, and you wanted people to tell you why you shouldn't be, based on the photos that you provided. And you are not "allowing" any argument based in anything beyond your position. Yes, the majority of abortions are done in the first several weeks of gestation. So?

I've already stated that I'm pro-choice, but I don't see your point, really. You say that there is no person in that picture so that it's not really murder, or whatever buzzword pro-lifers use these days.

Does it really matter what gimme calls "cellular goo" looks like to know that it's a living organism? We all know that there isn't a 6 foot person the moment conception happens, so again, I'll ask you what you were looking for with your presentation?

I appreciate your perspective, but I think you're missing the narrow focus of the thread. That, and the fact that everyone here already knows my positions on all those things, so my point wasn't to rehash or re-prove them, nor did I "want people to tell me why I shouldn't be pro-choice".

I have also made no statements about murder, cellular goo, living organisms, or 6-foot people. I am happy to have those conversations elsewhere, but they are not relevant to this thread.

What I was looking for in my presentation was a realization that most abortions are not represented by the images with which we are constantly bombarded.

Perhaps I shouldn't have said, "For all of you who think having an abortion necessarily kills a person, please identify the person in these photographs" - but I think everyone has missed my use of the word "necessarily". I am not (in this thread or for this reason or in this way) suggesting that there is no person to be found in ANY abortion photo - I am saying there is not a person to be found in EVERY abortion photo. And I never took that further to say that abortion is okay or that everyone should be pro-choice. Some of you are just extrapolating.

catefrances · September 2010

Paul David wrote:

...That being said, with regards to your last point, if she was just calling me to say "I'm pregnant with your child, but I'm getting rid of it", I'd probably rather not know at all. If it's a done deal, there's no sense in the agony.

tbh that sounds like a powerplay to me. lording it over the guy that when it comes down to it he really has no say in it. i dont understand why she would do that.

Hugh Freaking Dillon · September 2010

well, it was just hypothetical. I don't know if women actually do that or not. I've never really known any man to go through this particular issue.

catefrances wrote:

Paul David wrote:

...That being said, with regards to your last point, if she was just calling me to say "I'm pregnant with your child, but I'm getting rid of it", I'd probably rather not know at all. If it's a done deal, there's no sense in the agony.

tbh that sounds like a powerplay to me. lording it over the guy that when it comes down to it he really has no say in it. i dont understand why she would do that.

_ · September 2010

Paul David wrote:

I never said most men are like me. I said that the woman doing all the work is no longer the majority. I only know this through personal experience in life, knowing other fathers through work and personal acquaintances and the like. I don't think there can be any data to quantify that. At least none that I know of.

Of course you can't fault the woman for nature. My point is I can't stand the bullshit argument that some women resort to when they've run out of meaningful points: "I walked around like a penguin and shot a turkey through a straw and you want to be consulted on (insert whatever here)??". It's BS. It's a position that only women, in my experience, that have deadbeat men in their lives take.

Whether women doing all the work is no longer in the majority is, as you said, a matter of perspective. Some people have a different perspective and different experiences. I'm not sure how you can say that callen has NO idea what she is talking about and her(?) perspective has no basis in reality. What makes your experience any more representative of reality than hers? :?

I understand that this whole fathers' rights issue is difficult and often heartbreaking for men. The problem is, there's really no good solution. There isn't really a middle ground. If the two of you disagree, ONE of you has to decide. Either you get to decide or she does. It's not fair, but it's life. And if only one of you gets to decide (and that's the fault of nature, not law), then it makes sense that it should be the person whose body the baby is a part of and who will (likely) ultimately have more responsibility for the child (if there's an imbalance of responsibility). There's really no other choice when it comes down to it. So, yeah, it would be nice to be in a situation where both partners could be a team and make the decision together, but that's not always the case. And I know you said you "deserve" to be consulted and would like to be shown the same "courtesy" as the woman - and that's true. But it's not really about whether the guy is deserving or him being shown courtesy. It's about the pregnancy and the best decision to make about it. So if it's ultimately the woman's decision and she already knows what she thinks is best, then talking about the courtesy the guy deserve kind of seems to be more about his feelings and ego than about the actual pregnancy, no? Not that men's feelings aren't important - but they're not necessarily related to the decision at hand.

I'm confused by your statement to cate though. You said

Paul David wrote:

in the end I couldn't stop her from doing it if she really wanted to, but again, I'd appreciate the knowledge.

and then

Paul David wrote:

if she was just calling me to say "I'm pregnant with your child, but I'm getting rid of it", I'd probably rather not know at all.

So which is it? :?

_ · September 2010

Paul David wrote:

well, it was just hypothetical. I don't know if women actually do that or not. I've never really known any man to go through this particular issue.

catefrances wrote:

Paul David wrote:

...That being said, with regards to your last point, if she was just calling me to say "I'm pregnant with your child, but I'm getting rid of it", I'd probably rather not know at all. If it's a done deal, there's no sense in the agony.

tbh that sounds like a powerplay to me. lording it over the guy that when it comes down to it he really has no say in it. i dont understand why she would do that.

I've known many women to go through this particular issue and I can tell you that oftentimes it's the courtesy for the man and the sense of what he deserves (or doesn't deserve to have laid on him) and concern for his feelings that lead a woman to NOT tell him.

Hugh Freaking Dillon · September 2010

scb wrote:

Whether women doing all the work is no longer in the majority is, as you said, a matter of perspective. Some people have a different perspective and different experiences. I'm not sure how you can say that callen has NO idea what she is talking about and her(?) perspective has no basis in reality. What makes your experience any more representative of reality than hers? :?

because hers is a blanket statement of the stereotypical asshole man, and I happen to know SEVERAL men that are not like that, which blows that claim out of the water.

scb wrote:

I understand that this whole fathers' rights issue is difficult and often heartbreaking for men. The problem is, there's really no good solution. There isn't really a middle ground. If the two of you disagree, ONE of you has to decide. Either you get to decide or she does. It's not fair, but it's life. And if only one of you gets to decide (and that's the fault of nature, not law), then it makes sense that it should be the person whose body the baby is a part of and who will (likely) ultimately have more responsibility for the child (if there's an imbalance of responsibility). There's really no other choice when it comes down to it. So, yeah, it would be nice to be in a situation where both partners could be a team and make the decision together, but that's not always the case. And I know you said you "deserve" to be consulted and would like to be shown the same "courtesy" as the woman - and that's true. But it's not really about whether the guy is deserving or him being shown courtesy. It's about the pregnancy and the best decision to make about it. So if it's ultimately the woman's decision and she already knows what she thinks is best, then talking about the courtesy the guy deserve kind of seems to be more about his feelings and ego than about the actual pregnancy, no? Not that men's feelings aren't important - but they're not necessarily related to the decision at hand.

I'm confused by your statement to cate though. You said

Paul David wrote:

in the end I couldn't stop her from doing it if she really wanted to, but again, I'd appreciate the knowledge.

and then

Paul David wrote:

if she was just calling me to say "I'm pregnant with your child, but I'm getting rid of it", I'd probably rather not know at all.

So which is it? :?

of course in the end it's the woman's decision. I made that clear already.

my two statements to cate were about two different situations. the first was in the case where the woman and I sat down and talked about it, not knowing where the conversation would lead us, but obviously knowing it's her body, the decision is ultimately hers. the second one was a hypothetical that if the woman in question had made up her mind entirely and was just calling to tell me she was going to do it, well, I honestly don't know how I'd feel about it. It's impossible for me to know for sure.

and actually, my feelings are entirely relevant to the decision. how are they not? it has nothing to do with ego, I should be involved in the decision. does she have the final say? absolutely, it's her body. but I'd like to state my case, if that's what I felt was right for that situation.

(just so you know, I'm hitting the hay, so if there are more responses, I'll catch them in the morning).

Hugh Freaking Dillon · September 2010

well, every person and situation is different. I'd prefer to know. Maybe many other men wouldn't. But I would. End of story.

scb wrote:

I've known many women to go through this particular issue and I can tell you that oftentimes it's the courtesy for the man and the sense of what he deserves (or doesn't deserve to have laid on him) and concern for his feelings that lead a woman to NOT tell him.

gimmesometruth27 · September 2010

Paul David wrote:

well, every person and situation is different. I'd prefer to know. Maybe many other men wouldn't. But I would. End of story.

scb wrote:

I've known many women to go through this particular issue and I can tell you that oftentimes it's the courtesy for the man and the sense of what he deserves (or doesn't deserve to have laid on him) and concern for his feelings that lead a woman to NOT tell him.

personally i would not want to know. but that is just me....in my past, i, like most men, have had one nighters like those that have been mentioned here, always with protection btw, but i would just not want to know....

_ · September 2010

Paul David wrote:

scb wrote:

Whether women doing all the work is no longer in the majority is, as you said, a matter of perspective. Some people have a different perspective and different experiences. I'm not sure how you can say that callen has NO idea what she is talking about and her(?) perspective has no basis in reality. What makes your experience any more representative of reality than hers? :?

because hers is a blanket statement of the stereotypical asshole man, and I happen to know SEVERAL men that are not like that, which blows that claim out of the water.

Your knowledge that not all men are assholes proves that not all men are assholes (which I'm not sure is what she was saying anyway). But it doesn't give you the authority to then turn around and make 3 blanket statements back to her:
1. She has no idea what she's talking about.
2. Her perspective has no basis in reality.
3. The situation she spoke of does not represent the majority.

All either of you know is that a lot of situations are like the one she described and a lot are like the one you described. Either could be in the majority, really, and it seems like each of you might (since we can't really speak for her) think the one you have experienced represents the majority but we don't really have any way of knowing since neither of you know most of the men in the world.

(Really, though? You think MORE THAN 50% of the men in society do a FULL 50% of the CHILDCARE work?? Think outside your several like-minded friends for a moment. Really?? :? Would the wives of these majority of men agree that they do fully half the work or is that just their perspective?? Because in all honesty, I know some men who think they do half the childcare work - which does include pregnancy, childbirth, and breastfeeding but doesn't include going to work to earn an income - and maybe a couple who actually do, but the majority of men I know don't even claim that they really do half the work. And that's just counting the good guys.)

Paul David wrote:

scb wrote:

I understand that this whole fathers' rights issue is difficult and often heartbreaking for men. The problem is, there's really no good solution. There isn't really a middle ground. If the two of you disagree, ONE of you has to decide. Either you get to decide or she does. It's not fair, but it's life. And if only one of you gets to decide (and that's the fault of nature, not law), then it makes sense that it should be the person whose body the baby is a part of and who will (likely) ultimately have more responsibility for the child (if there's an imbalance of responsibility). There's really no other choice when it comes down to it. So, yeah, it would be nice to be in a situation where both partners could be a team and make the decision together, but that's not always the case. And I know you said you "deserve" to be consulted and would like to be shown the same "courtesy" as the woman - and that's true. But it's not really about whether the guy is deserving or him being shown courtesy. It's about the pregnancy and the best decision to make about it. So if it's ultimately the woman's decision and she already knows what she thinks is best, then talking about the courtesy the guy deserve kind of seems to be more about his feelings and ego than about the actual pregnancy, no? Not that men's feelings aren't important - but they're not necessarily related to the decision at hand.

I'm confused by your statement to cate though. You said

Paul David wrote:

in the end I couldn't stop her from doing it if she really wanted to, but again, I'd appreciate the knowledge.

and then

Paul David wrote:

if she was just calling me to say "I'm pregnant with your child, but I'm getting rid of it", I'd probably rather not know at all.

So which is it? :?

of course in the end it's the woman's decision. I made that clear already.

my two statements to cate were about two different situations. the first was in the case where the woman and I sat down and talked about it, not knowing where the conversation would lead us, but obviously knowing it's her body, the decision is ultimately hers. the second one was a hypothetical that if the woman in question had made up her mind entirely and was just calling to tell me she was going to do it, well, I honestly don't know how I'd feel about it. It's impossible for me to know for sure.

and actually, my feelings are entirely relevant to the decision. how are they not? it has nothing to do with ego, I should be involved in the decision. does she have the final say? absolutely, it's her body. but I'd like to state my case, if that's what I felt was right for that situation.

(just so you know, I'm hitting the hay, so if there are more responses, I'll catch them in the morning).

Your feelings are really only relevant to the decision if you are making the decision together. But otherwise it just doesn't make sense to say you should be "involved" in the decision but she should have the final say. I mean, what does that mean and how would that work? You say, "I want you to have the baby" and she says, "No" and then that means you were involved in the decision? I mean, do you think the man's opinion should necessarily influence the woman's decision? Like, let's say your 14-year-old daughter got pregnant and was going to have an abortion. Do you think just because her boyfriend came along and said she should have the baby that she should change her mind or something? (Or vice versa. Should your little girl have an abortion just because some kid she slept with wants her to?) I'm just not getting how someone can be "involved" in a decision that has absolutely no room for compromise. I just don't think that's possible unless the woman is unsure what to do AND the man's feelings would change the outcome of the whole situation. That's not to say that there is never any room for a man's feelings on the subject - just, again that there is not necessarily always a place for them. And I'm not saying it wouldn't be ideal to let you state your case - just that it's kind of just all for show so your feelings don't get hurt to let you state your case if she knows it won't change her mind.

Also, do you feel the exact same way about the influence the man should have in the decision-making process if it's the other way around and the man wants the woman to have an abortion?

_ · September 2010

Paul David wrote:

well, every person and situation is different. I'd prefer to know. Maybe many other men wouldn't. But I would. End of story.

scb wrote:

I've known many women to go through this particular issue and I can tell you that oftentimes it's the courtesy for the man and the sense of what he deserves (or doesn't deserve to have laid on him) and concern for his feelings that lead a woman to NOT tell him.

Yeah, sure, end of story on what you would want (in some situations, though it's different in others). But my point was that I don't think your use of language like "courtesy" and "deserve" is unique to your point of view. Some people deserve to be told; some people deserve to not be told - but a belief that you're deserving doesn't dictate what you're deserving of. And courtesy means different things to different people as well. So just because a woman doesn't tell a man, it doesn't' mean she's not being courteous, as I think has been implied.

I guess my whole point (with this tangential conversation) is that I think you make this whole "father's rights" thing out to be much more simple than it really is (as does the term "father's rights"). Every situation is unique, so I don't think there's any room for "should"s.

cincybearcat · September 2010

scb wrote:

Please see my post above about how your 8-week picture is really an 11-week picture.

And this is why this argument is so ridiculous. You are arguing over weeks. It's not about a week here or there, it is about what that life will develop into. Unless that chance is taken from it.

cincybearcat · September 2010

Paul David wrote:

catefrances wrote:

even if it was a one night stand youd want to be consulted???

no question about it. why would that matter? my child is my child. my relationship to the mother doesn't make it any less so.

Well put.

Hugh Freaking Dillon · September 2010

scb:
-your 14 year old daughter scenario isn't relevant to what I am talking about, as that includes minors. that's a whole different ball of wax.
-yes, I do believe I deserve the courtesy of being told I created life. I believe every man deserves that courtesy.
-I KNOW I do half the rearing of our daughters, and also most of the housework and yardwork. No, I'm not including going to work everyday in that. My wife and I are a team, and we help each other out as much as we can.
-fine, I made a blanket statement after hers. Let's let that one go. It was just an emotional response to someone who (I gather) hates men, or at least has some sort of problem with them, and those women bother me. get therapy or get over it. case closed.
-yes, of course my feelings are relevant if the decision is being made together. that's what I've been saying. I would HOPE we are making the decision together. Just because she might be leaning towards abortion, does that just mean I should throw in the towel and say "ah,it's no use", or should I tell her how I feel and stand up for what I want in life? I vote the latter.
-yes, I do think the man should be able to voice his influence if he's the one that wants the abortion, but as in the reverse scenario, as I stated clearly, it is the woman's decision in the end.

Hugh Freaking Dillon · September 2010

what if a woman from your past called you up and said "you have a 10 year old son/daughter", would you be happy, or would you wish she never called?

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

Paul David wrote:

well, every person and situation is different. I'd prefer to know. Maybe many other men wouldn't. But I would. End of story.

scb wrote:

I've known many women to go through this particular issue and I can tell you that oftentimes it's the courtesy for the man and the sense of what he deserves (or doesn't deserve to have laid on him) and concern for his feelings that lead a woman to NOT tell him.

personally i would not want to know. but that is just me....in my past, i, like most men, have had one nighters like those that have been mentioned here, always with protection btw, but i would just not want to know....

gimmesometruth27 · September 2010

Paul David wrote:

what if a woman from your past called you up and said "you have a 10 year old son/daughter", would you be happy, or would you wish she never called?

i would be angry that she never told me before. that is 10 years of not helping out with raising my child. what are you getting at???

Hugh Freaking Dillon · September 2010

ok, maybe I misunderstood your previous post. You said you wouldn't want to know. Let me clarify.....you wouldn't't want to know if she had an abortion, or you wouldn't want to know if she was pregnant, regardless what she was going to do?

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

Paul David wrote:

what if a woman from your past called you up and said "you have a 10 year old son/daughter", would you be happy, or would you wish she never called?

i would be angry that she never told me before. that is 10 years of not helping out with raising my child. what are you getting at???

Hugh Freaking Dillon · September 2010

I just went back and read it again. You were responding scb's point of not telling the guy if she was going to have an abortion, the first time I read it I read it as you not wanting to know either way. my bad.

sorry, gimme, I wasn't calling your character into question. I was just trying to clarify a point. my apologies if it offended you.

Paul David wrote:

ok, maybe I misunderstood your previous post. You said you wouldn't want to know. Let me clarify.....you wouldn't't want to know if she had an abortion, or you wouldn't want to know if she was pregnant, regardless what she was going to do?

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

Paul David wrote:

what if a woman from your past called you up and said "you have a 10 year old son/daughter", would you be happy, or would you wish she never called?

i would be angry that she never told me before. that is 10 years of not helping out with raising my child. what are you getting at???

This is what an abortion looks like

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