scb is clearly baiting people in this thread, and posting non-disturbing images to prove her point. Since photos which may counter her "For all of you who think having an abortion necessarily kills a person, please identify the person in these photographs" post are not allowed on the board, it's a convenient way to stifle the discussion, since only photos which support her angle are allowed on the board. That's what I'm getting at. Sorry a few of you couldn't recognize the point.
i figured out long ago the scb does nothing but bait people!!! Thank you Godfather!!! for pointing that out. This is why i ignore her, she's not intrested in debate or your opinion, just in being right, typical scarred women. i don't know who hurt you scb, but not every man out there is responsible.
I thought I was going crazy for a moment. Ok... I'm outta this thread. Leaving the bait to the fish.
Cheers all.
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scb is clearly baiting people in this thread, and posting non-disturbing images to prove her point. Since photos which may counter her "For all of you who think having an abortion necessarily kills a person, please identify the person in these photographs" post are not allowed on the board, it's a convenient way to stifle the discussion, since only photos which support her angle are allowed on the board. That's what I'm getting at. Sorry a few of you couldn't recognize the point.
Yes, I am posting non-disturbing images of early abortions to prove my point. My point is that images of early abortions are not disturbing.
Do you agree with my point or would you like to explain why you disagree? Do you want me to say that I agree that images of late abortion are disturbing? Sure, I'll acknowledge that for you. (I thought I already had.) Here goes: Images of late abortions are (can be) disturbing (in many ways).
What's your point?? Did you find the people in the images of early abortions or not? Are you saying there are people in those photographs? Seriously, what's your point? :? Are you just still so upset from the old conversation we had about third-trimester fetuses that you can't let it go or something? :?
how often people forget that there are LIVING little swimmers made inside each man.
So men who jerk off are potential baby killers.
In essence, every man is a potential baby killer.
I like to think of that little bit Carlin did in one of his acts:
"Many people believe that life begins at conception....which is when the sperm fertilizes the egg. That fertilized egg travels through the fallopian tube and into the uterus but yet never becomes attatched to the uterine wall. It just get flushed out of a woman's body during those delightful few days she has. Yet these eggs that she passes ARE fertilized eggs. So what these Christian conservatives are trying to say is that any woman who has had more than one period is a serial killer.
Hey, I'm just looking for a little consistency in these abortion arguments."
i figured out long ago the scb does nothing but bait people!!! Thank you Godfather!!! for pointing that out. This is why i ignore her, she's not intrested in debate or your opinion, just in being right, typical scarred women. i don't know who hurt you scb, but not every man out there is responsible.
what the hell has happened to this place? why have people turned so damn mean?
that was totally uncalled for and added absolutely nothing to the debate.
scb is clearly baiting people in this thread, and posting non-disturbing images to prove her point. Since photos which may counter her "For all of you who think having an abortion necessarily kills a person, please identify the person in these photographs" post are not allowed on the board, it's a convenient way to stifle the discussion, since only photos which support her angle are allowed on the board. That's what I'm getting at. Sorry a few of you couldn't recognize the point.
i figured out long ago the scb does nothing but bait people!!! Thank you Godfather!!! for pointing that out. This is why i ignore her, she's not intrested in debate or your opinion, just in being right, typical scarred women. i don't know who hurt you scb, but not every man out there is responsible.
Your taking advise from Godfather? :roll:
I personally don't think scb was baiting, she made a statement and then clarified any misunderstandings- I think some of you might have a personal grudge against her or have wounds that haven't healed. Why else would you continue repeating the same comments on something that was address pages ago........
there's a link here that will show you many pictures of 1st trimester abortions. for an example you can click on a picture and it will show you what it looks like at 8 weeks. there are also pathologists medical authentications confirming the ages.
a warning though, it's not a pretty sight, so please don't click on the link if you feel it may upset you.
Ah, the old Center for Bio-Ethical Reform... founders of the Genocide Awareness Project, the people who bring you the billboard trucks with pictures of piles of "aborted" fetuses reaching out from pools of blood next to Holocaust victims and who say abortion causes cervical cancer... The people whose website, AbortionNO.org, says "CBR condemns all abortion related violence and will not associate with groups or individuals who fail to condemn such violence." What an unbiased, scientific source! :roll: I'm actually surprised and disappointed that you of all people would chose them as your source of medical information.
For one thing, the authenticity of their photographs is frequently called into question - but no one is allowed to say much publicly, in writing, because the group threatens to sue the shit out of anyone who tries to say anything against them. So all conversation is silenced, because even if you won the lawsuit you'd be out a shit ton of money. That's hardly what I'd call peer-reviewed scientific consensus.
Regardless, here's what you should know about these photographs, even if they really are aborted fetuses: As I said before, I'm not denying that fetuses develop and grow fingers and eyeballs and such things. They do at later stages of pregnancy. But these pictures are labeled so as to be intentionally deceitful. When a picture is labeled 7 weeks, it's really about 10 weeks. There are two reasons they're able to get away with this:
1) They label the pictures using "fetal age" (counting from fertilization) instead of gestational age coinciding with your last menstrual period (LMP), which fits with a 40-week pregnancy. The problem is that the medical community uses LMP. (Even when you get an ultrasound, it's calculated so as to use LMP dating for a 40-week scale.) The difference between fetal age and regular gestational dating by LMP is that ovulation and conception don't actually happen until about 2 weeks after your LMP. So fetal age is 2 weeks younger than the gestational age that your doctor said you are. So that means when your doctor tell your you're 7 weeks pregnant, the fetal age would be 5 weeks. So when the Center for Bio-Ethical Reform shows you a picture of what they call a 7-week fetus, it's really a 9-week fetus by all standard convention. (If you don't believe me, they say so right here: http://www.abortionno.org/pdf/LevatinoLetterMay08.pdf)
2) Except here's why it's really a 10-week fetus: Gestational age is measured in weeks and a week has 7 days in it. So you can be 7 weeks and 0 days, 7 weeks and 1 day, 7 weeks & 2, 7 & 3, and so on, up to 7 weeks & 6 days. Your doctor, when dating your pregnancy, will be specific. But if you're being sloppy about your dating and not noting the days, that entire span of a week can be considered 7 weeks, even though the end of it is just shy of a week older.
So if I'm talking about a 7-week & 0-day-old fetus, this group will show you an image of a 9-week & 6-day old fetus and tell you it's the same thing. (And those are just two of their tricks.) So when you're looking at the pictures, just add 3 weeks to whatever gestational age they say it is and you'll have a better sense of reality. Then form your opinions based on that. (I'd also suggest removing the sensationalism of the hand reaching out from a pool of blood and such things.)
You know a couple of other things I find suspect while looking around their website, by the way? Their so-called certificate of authenticity has no name and is dated 2008. Yet they've been using these pictures for much longer than that. Hmm... Their only "proof" only recently showed up and there is no way of verifying it. Convenient.
Oh well, like I said just note the way they try to trick you with labeling and sensationalism. Then look at the picture 'til your heart's content. It doesn't change my beliefs one bit.
scb is clearly baiting people in this thread, and posting non-disturbing images to prove her point. Since photos which may counter her "For all of you who think having an abortion necessarily kills a person, please identify the person in these photographs" post are not allowed on the board, it's a convenient way to stifle the discussion, since only photos which support her angle are allowed on the board. That's what I'm getting at. Sorry a few of you couldn't recognize the point.
well i didn't post pictures, i put a link with a warning so i hope that's ok. i guess the mods will delete it if it's not ok.
one of the links i posted was for an abortion carried out at 8 weeks. as scb said in her original post that "The majority of abortions occur at less than 9 weeks of pregnancy (in the United States)." , i thought it was relevant.
again, i have absolutely no intention of offending anyone and if my links are not ok, the mods can delete them.
Please see my post above about how your 8-week picture is really an 11-week picture.
scb is clearly baiting people in this thread, and posting non-disturbing images to prove her point. Since photos which may counter her "For all of you who think having an abortion necessarily kills a person, please identify the person in these photographs" post are not allowed on the board, it's a convenient way to stifle the discussion, since only photos which support her angle are allowed on the board. That's what I'm getting at. Sorry a few of you couldn't recognize the point.
i figured out long ago the scb does nothing but bait people!!! Thank you Godfather!!! for pointing that out. This is why i ignore her, she's not intrested in debate or your opinion, just in being right, typical scarred women. i don't know who hurt you scb, but not every man out there is responsible.
Not what I got from SCB's post. Simply the inaccurate depictions of what an abortion looks like by anti-choice humans doesn't reflect reality. Whats not to understand? It may not meet your justification for your position but it is what it is.
As to a mans rights????!!!!!????? Are you kidding me? You bust a nut, if the womans lucky 15 minutes of effort. Then the womans body is stressed to the max with pregnacy for 9 months. She ultimately takes care of the baby 99.9999% of the time after birth.....my view is a man has NO right to tell a woman what to do with her body.
scb is clearly baiting people in this thread, and posting non-disturbing images to prove her point. Since photos which may counter her "For all of you who think having an abortion necessarily kills a person, please identify the person in these photographs" post are not allowed on the board, it's a convenient way to stifle the discussion, since only photos which support her angle are allowed on the board. That's what I'm getting at. Sorry a few of you couldn't recognize the point.
i figured out long ago the scb does nothing but bait people!!! Thank you Godfather!!! for pointing that out. This is why i ignore her, she's not intrested in debate or your opinion, just in being right, typical scarred women. i don't know who hurt you scb, but not every man out there is responsible.
THE scb?? I like it! Other that that, what the fuck are you talking about? :? I have no idea what your comment has to do with abortion and I'm sorry you don't feel like you are able to debate me. If it makes you feel any better, I agree.
Ah, the old Center for Bio-Ethical Reform... founders of the Genocide Awareness Project, the people who bring you the billboard trucks piles of "aborted" fetuses reaching out from pools of blood next to Holocaust victims and who say abortion causes cervical cancer... The people whose website, AbortionNO.org, says "CBR condemns all abortion related violence and will not associate with groups or individuals who fail to condemn such violence." What an unbiased, scientific source! :roll: I'm actually surprised and disappointed that you of all people would chose them as your source of medical information.
i was going to ask you to direct me to a site that that offers similar information that is unbiased then i figured i don't know enough to debate it properly so i'm going to opt out.
as a paramedic, i have lots of medical experience, but abortions are not something i deal with. i'm more about taking care of the living.
i am not pro-abortion. I am pro-choice. i believe that every woman should be able to decide what to do with her own body without restrictions placed on her by anybody else. i also believe that for the people that choose the option to abort, then we need good, experienced people like Dr George Tiller, hence the reason i was horrified by his death.
there are plenty of pics of embryos @ various stages of gestation in books and on the internets. i dont need to see a pic of an abortion(nice and clean or harrowing) to know what it is im aborting.
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As to a mans rights????!!!!!????? Are you kidding me? You bust a nut, if the womans lucky 15 minutes of effort. Then the womans body is stressed to the max with pregnacy for 9 months. She ultimately takes care of the baby 99.9999% of the time after birth.....my view is a man has NO right to tell a woman what to do with her body.
hello, angry woman!
You have NO idea what you are talking about. I am a father of two, and I take care of my girls just as much as my wife does. Your assessment is from the 50's, and has no basis in reality. If this is YOUR personal experience, then my sympathy is with you, but that is by no means the majority anymore.
If I got a woman pregnant, and she wanted to abort, your damn right she'd better fucking consult me. It's my kid too. Don't bring that "the woman has to carry it for 9 months" shit. That's not a choice any man can make. That's nature. You can't fault a man for that.
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As to a mans rights????!!!!!????? Are you kidding me? You bust a nut, if the womans lucky 15 minutes of effort. Then the womans body is stressed to the max with pregnacy for 9 months. She ultimately takes care of the baby 99.9999% of the time after birth.....my view is a man has NO right to tell a woman what to do with her body.
hello, angry woman!
You have NO idea what you are talking about. I am a father of two, and I take care of my girls just as much as my wife does. Your assessment is from the 50's, and has no basis in reality. If this is YOUR personal experience, then my sympathy is with you, but that is by no means the majority anymore.
If I got a woman pregnant, and she wanted to abort, your damn right she'd better fucking consult me. It's my kid too. Don't bring that "the woman has to carry it for 9 months" shit. That's not a choice any man can make. That's nature. You can't fault a man for that.
even if it was a one night stand youd want to be consulted???
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take a good look
this could be the day
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I think the point is that you presented an argument based in only partial fact. You said you were not posting any position on this, but you clearly did by even starting it and stating that if anyone can see a person in that picture they needed to speak up. You are obviously pro-choice, and you wanted people to tell you why you shouldn't be, based on the photos that you provided. And you are not "allowing" any argument based in anything beyond your position. Yes, the majority of abortions are done in the first several weeks of gestation. So?
I've already stated that I'm pro-choice, but I don't see your point, really. You say that there is no person in that picture so that it's not really murder, or whatever buzzword pro-lifers use these days.
Does it really matter what gimme calls "cellular goo" looks like to know that it's a living organism? We all know that there isn't a 6 foot person the moment conception happens, so again, I'll ask you what you were looking for with your presentation?
scb is clearly baiting people in this thread, and posting non-disturbing images to prove her point. Since photos which may counter her "For all of you who think having an abortion necessarily kills a person, please identify the person in these photographs" post are not allowed on the board, it's a convenient way to stifle the discussion, since only photos which support her angle are allowed on the board. That's what I'm getting at. Sorry a few of you couldn't recognize the point.
Yes, I am posting non-disturbing images of early abortions to prove my point. My point is that images of early abortions are not disturbing.
Do you agree with my point or would you like to explain why you disagree? Do you want me to say that I agree that images of late abortion are disturbing? Sure, I'll acknowledge that for you. (I thought I already had.) Here goes: Images of late abortions are (can be) disturbing (in many ways).
What's your point?? Did you find the people in the images of early abortions or not? Are you saying there are people in those photographs? Seriously, what's your point? :? Are you just still so upset from the old conversation we had about third-trimester fetuses that you can't let it go or something? :?
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even if it was a one night stand youd want to be consulted???
no question about it. why would that matter? my child is my child. my relationship to the mother doesn't make it any less so.
ok im gonna play devils advocate here. and please dont take this as me questioning your character.
what if it was just one drunken adulterous night? what if the woman knowing what this could do to your life, and having already chosen to abort due to her own circumstances, just went ahead and did so. youd be none the wiser. and yes i realise that the woman is making decisions for you re: your situation that clearly youve already stated she basically has no right to do. or are we just talking about a courtesy call where she informs you shes pregnant,if in fact you exchanged numbers and she knows where you can be contacted, she tells you what her plans are and you respect her enough to allow her to make that decision?
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
As to a mans rights????!!!!!????? Are you kidding me? You bust a nut, if the womans lucky 15 minutes of effort. Then the womans body is stressed to the max with pregnacy for 9 months. She ultimately takes care of the baby 99.9999% of the time after birth.....my view is a man has NO right to tell a woman what to do with her body.
hello, angry woman!
You have NO idea what you are talking about. I am a father of two, and I take care of my girls just as much as my wife does. Your assessment is from the 50's, and has no basis in reality. If this is YOUR personal experience, then my sympathy is with you, but that is by no means the majority anymore.
If I got a woman pregnant, and she wanted to abort, your damn right she'd better fucking consult me. It's my kid too. Don't bring that "the woman has to carry it for 9 months" shit. That's not a choice any man can make. That's nature. You can't fault a man for that.
I think it's great that you're a good partner and father. You have my respect for that. But I'd like to see some sort of data showing that most men are like you.
Also, you can't fault a woman for nature either, can you?
what bothers me is that people seem to feel that you should "respect the woman's decision", when it's not all hers to make, or it shouldn't be. I would respect her opinion, and I would try to decide with her on the best course of action. Would it be weird? Of course, especially if I met this woman one drunken night and then again at breakfast, and then 6 weeks later when she calls me about our "situation". But this is a major life decision. I don't care if I've known you 10 years or 10 days, when it affects me like that, I expect to be shown the same courtesy everyone seems to be showing only the woman in this situation.
I don't view having kids as an inconvenience in life (not saying you are, obviously, doll ). So yeah, raising a kid with a stranger would present its complications, no doubt, but I'd like to be part of the decision.
Of course, there are no laws for the father's rights, so in the end I couldn't stop her from doing it if she really wanted to, but again, I'd appreciate the knowledge.
I'll ask you something........if I had random sex with this woman, how she could possibly KNOW what having this kid would do to my life without consulting me? That's the problem. That's why I deserve to be consulted.
That being said, with regards to your last point, if she was just calling me to say "I'm pregnant with your child, but I'm getting rid of it", I'd probably rather not know at all. If it's a done deal, there's no sense in the agony.
even if it was a one night stand youd want to be consulted???
no question about it. why would that matter? my child is my child. my relationship to the mother doesn't make it any less so.
ok im gonna play devils advocate here. and please dont take this as me questioning your character.
what if it was just one drunken adulterous night? what if the woman knowing what this could do to your life, and having already chosen to abort due to her own circumstances, just went ahead and did so. youd be none the wiser. and yes i realise that the woman is making decisions for you re: your situation that clearly youve already stated she basically has no right to do. or are we just talking about a courtesy call where she informs you shes pregnant,if in fact you exchanged numbers and she knows where you can be contacted, she tells you what her plans are and you respect her enough to allow her to make that decision?
Gimli 1993
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St. Paul 2014
what bothers me is that people seem to feel that you should "respect the woman's decision", when it's not all hers to make, or it shouldn't be. I would respect her opinion, and I would try to decide with her on the best course of action. Would it be weird? Of course, especially if I met this woman one drunken night and then again at breakfast, and then 6 weeks later when she calls me about our "situation". But this is a major life decision. I don't care if I've known you 10 years or 10 days, when it affects me like that, I expect to be shown the same courtesy everyone seems to be showing only the woman in this situation.
I don't view having kids as an inconvenience in life (not saying you are, obviously, doll ). So yeah, raising a kid with a stranger would present its complications, no doubt, but I'd like to be part of the decision.
Of course, there are no laws for the father's rights, so in the end I couldn't stop her from doing it if she really wanted to, but again, I'd appreciate the knowledge.
I'll ask you something........if I had random sex with this woman, how she could possibly KNOW what having this kid would do to my life without consulting me? That's the problem. That's why I deserve to be consulted.
That being said, with regards to your last point, if she was just calling me to say "I'm pregnant with your child, but I'm getting rid of it", I'd probably rather not know at all. If it's a done deal, there's no sense in the agony.
i apologise. i was thinking of a situation where they actually had a conversation before the drunken sex part kicked in. not one of those hey baby(hiccup) wanna fuck? situations.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I never said most men are like me. I said that the woman doing all the work is no longer the majority. I only know this through personal experience in life, knowing other fathers through work and personal acquaintances and the like. I don't think there can be any data to quantify that. At least none that I know of.
Of course you can't fault the woman for nature. My point is I can't stand the bullshit argument that some women resort to when they've run out of meaningful points: "I walked around like a penguin and shot a turkey through a straw and you want to be consulted on (insert whatever here)??". It's BS. It's a position that only women, in my experience, that have deadbeat men in their lives take.
As to a mans rights????!!!!!????? Are you kidding me? You bust a nut, if the womans lucky 15 minutes of effort. Then the womans body is stressed to the max with pregnacy for 9 months. She ultimately takes care of the baby 99.9999% of the time after birth.....my view is a man has NO right to tell a woman what to do with her body.
hello, angry woman!
You have NO idea what you are talking about. I am a father of two, and I take care of my girls just as much as my wife does. Your assessment is from the 50's, and has no basis in reality. If this is YOUR personal experience, then my sympathy is with you, but that is by no means the majority anymore.
If I got a woman pregnant, and she wanted to abort, your damn right she'd better fucking consult me. It's my kid too. Don't bring that "the woman has to carry it for 9 months" shit. That's not a choice any man can make. That's nature. You can't fault a man for that.
I think it's great that you're a good partner and father. You have my respect for that. But I'd like to see some sort of data showing that most men are like you.
Also, you can't fault a woman for nature either, can you?
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I think the point is that you presented an argument based in only partial fact. You said you were not posting any position on this, but you clearly did by even starting it and stating that if anyone can see a person in that picture they needed to speak up. You are obviously pro-choice, and you wanted people to tell you why you shouldn't be, based on the photos that you provided. And you are not "allowing" any argument based in anything beyond your position. Yes, the majority of abortions are done in the first several weeks of gestation. So?
I've already stated that I'm pro-choice, but I don't see your point, really. You say that there is no person in that picture so that it's not really murder, or whatever buzzword pro-lifers use these days.
Does it really matter what gimme calls "cellular goo" looks like to know that it's a living organism? We all know that there isn't a 6 foot person the moment conception happens, so again, I'll ask you what you were looking for with your presentation?
I appreciate your perspective, but I think you're missing the narrow focus of the thread. That, and the fact that everyone here already knows my positions on all those things, so my point wasn't to rehash or re-prove them, nor did I "want people to tell me why I shouldn't be pro-choice".
I have also made no statements about murder, cellular goo, living organisms, or 6-foot people. I am happy to have those conversations elsewhere, but they are not relevant to this thread.
What I was looking for in my presentation was a realization that most abortions are not represented by the images with which we are constantly bombarded.
Perhaps I shouldn't have said, "For all of you who think having an abortion necessarily kills a person, please identify the person in these photographs" - but I think everyone has missed my use of the word "necessarily". I am not (in this thread or for this reason or in this way) suggesting that there is no person to be found in ANY abortion photo - I am saying there is not a person to be found in EVERY abortion photo. And I never took that further to say that abortion is okay or that everyone should be pro-choice. Some of you are just extrapolating.
no apology necessary. I thought you meant a stranger, not a female friend who I just happened to bang one night. (yeah, I guess that's happened! )
But the end result is the same for me. I would want to know, and I feel that I deserve that courtesy. But I guess maybe I can see the woman's perspective on it. "why bother? he's just going to be all weird and it's going to make this more difficult". I guess the stereotypical male has been shown to act this way, I just don't think it's the norm anymore, and more woman in these situations that many men would actually WANT to know.
i apologise. i was thinking of a situation where they actually had a conversation before the drunken sex part kicked in. not one of those hey baby(hiccup) wanna fuck? situations.
Post edited by Hugh Freaking Dillon on
Gimli 1993
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I think the point is that you presented an argument based in only partial fact. You said you were not posting any position on this, but you clearly did by even starting it and stating that if anyone can see a person in that picture they needed to speak up. You are obviously pro-choice, and you wanted people to tell you why you shouldn't be, based on the photos that you provided. And you are not "allowing" any argument based in anything beyond your position. Yes, the majority of abortions are done in the first several weeks of gestation. So?
I've already stated that I'm pro-choice, but I don't see your point, really. You say that there is no person in that picture so that it's not really murder, or whatever buzzword pro-lifers use these days.
Does it really matter what gimme calls "cellular goo" looks like to know that it's a living organism? We all know that there isn't a 6 foot person the moment conception happens, so again, I'll ask you what you were looking for with your presentation?
I appreciate your perspective, but I think you're missing the narrow focus of the thread. That, and the fact that everyone here already knows my positions on all those things, so my point wasn't to rehash or re-prove them, nor did I "want people to tell me why I shouldn't be pro-choice".
I have also made no statements about murder, cellular goo, living organisms, or 6-foot people. I am happy to have those conversations elsewhere, but they are not relevant to this thread.
What I was looking for in my presentation was a realization that most abortions are not represented by the images with which we are constantly bombarded.
Perhaps I shouldn't have said, "For all of you who think having an abortion necessarily kills a person, please identify the person in these photographs" - but I think everyone has missed my use of the word "necessarily". I am not (in this thread or for this reason or in this way) suggesting that there is no person to be found in ANY abortion photo - I am saying there is not a person to be found in EVERY abortion photo. And I never took that further to say that abortion is okay or that everyone should be pro-choice. Some of you are just extrapolating.
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...That being said, with regards to your last point, if she was just calling me to say "I'm pregnant with your child, but I'm getting rid of it", I'd probably rather not know at all. If it's a done deal, there's no sense in the agony.
tbh that sounds like a powerplay to me. lording it over the guy that when it comes down to it he really has no say in it. i dont understand why she would do that.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
...That being said, with regards to your last point, if she was just calling me to say "I'm pregnant with your child, but I'm getting rid of it", I'd probably rather not know at all. If it's a done deal, there's no sense in the agony.
tbh that sounds like a powerplay to me. lording it over the guy that when it comes down to it he really has no say in it. i dont understand why she would do that.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
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St. Paul 2014
I never said most men are like me. I said that the woman doing all the work is no longer the majority. I only know this through personal experience in life, knowing other fathers through work and personal acquaintances and the like. I don't think there can be any data to quantify that. At least none that I know of.
Of course you can't fault the woman for nature. My point is I can't stand the bullshit argument that some women resort to when they've run out of meaningful points: "I walked around like a penguin and shot a turkey through a straw and you want to be consulted on (insert whatever here)??". It's BS. It's a position that only women, in my experience, that have deadbeat men in their lives take.
Whether women doing all the work is no longer in the majority is, as you said, a matter of perspective. Some people have a different perspective and different experiences. I'm not sure how you can say that callen has NO idea what she is talking about and her(?) perspective has no basis in reality. What makes your experience any more representative of reality than hers? :?
I understand that this whole fathers' rights issue is difficult and often heartbreaking for men. The problem is, there's really no good solution. There isn't really a middle ground. If the two of you disagree, ONE of you has to decide. Either you get to decide or she does. It's not fair, but it's life. And if only one of you gets to decide (and that's the fault of nature, not law), then it makes sense that it should be the person whose body the baby is a part of and who will (likely) ultimately have more responsibility for the child (if there's an imbalance of responsibility). There's really no other choice when it comes down to it. So, yeah, it would be nice to be in a situation where both partners could be a team and make the decision together, but that's not always the case. And I know you said you "deserve" to be consulted and would like to be shown the same "courtesy" as the woman - and that's true. But it's not really about whether the guy is deserving or him being shown courtesy. It's about the pregnancy and the best decision to make about it. So if it's ultimately the woman's decision and she already knows what she thinks is best, then talking about the courtesy the guy deserve kind of seems to be more about his feelings and ego than about the actual pregnancy, no? Not that men's feelings aren't important - but they're not necessarily related to the decision at hand.
I'm confused by your statement to cate though. You said
...That being said, with regards to your last point, if she was just calling me to say "I'm pregnant with your child, but I'm getting rid of it", I'd probably rather not know at all. If it's a done deal, there's no sense in the agony.
tbh that sounds like a powerplay to me. lording it over the guy that when it comes down to it he really has no say in it. i dont understand why she would do that.
I've known many women to go through this particular issue and I can tell you that oftentimes it's the courtesy for the man and the sense of what he deserves (or doesn't deserve to have laid on him) and concern for his feelings that lead a woman to NOT tell him.
Whether women doing all the work is no longer in the majority is, as you said, a matter of perspective. Some people have a different perspective and different experiences. I'm not sure how you can say that callen has NO idea what she is talking about and her(?) perspective has no basis in reality. What makes your experience any more representative of reality than hers? :?
because hers is a blanket statement of the stereotypical asshole man, and I happen to know SEVERAL men that are not like that, which blows that claim out of the water.
I understand that this whole fathers' rights issue is difficult and often heartbreaking for men. The problem is, there's really no good solution. There isn't really a middle ground. If the two of you disagree, ONE of you has to decide. Either you get to decide or she does. It's not fair, but it's life. And if only one of you gets to decide (and that's the fault of nature, not law), then it makes sense that it should be the person whose body the baby is a part of and who will (likely) ultimately have more responsibility for the child (if there's an imbalance of responsibility). There's really no other choice when it comes down to it. So, yeah, it would be nice to be in a situation where both partners could be a team and make the decision together, but that's not always the case. And I know you said you "deserve" to be consulted and would like to be shown the same "courtesy" as the woman - and that's true. But it's not really about whether the guy is deserving or him being shown courtesy. It's about the pregnancy and the best decision to make about it. So if it's ultimately the woman's decision and she already knows what she thinks is best, then talking about the courtesy the guy deserve kind of seems to be more about his feelings and ego than about the actual pregnancy, no? Not that men's feelings aren't important - but they're not necessarily related to the decision at hand.
I'm confused by your statement to cate though. You said
if she was just calling me to say "I'm pregnant with your child, but I'm getting rid of it", I'd probably rather not know at all.
So which is it? :?
of course in the end it's the woman's decision. I made that clear already.
my two statements to cate were about two different situations. the first was in the case where the woman and I sat down and talked about it, not knowing where the conversation would lead us, but obviously knowing it's her body, the decision is ultimately hers. the second one was a hypothetical that if the woman in question had made up her mind entirely and was just calling to tell me she was going to do it, well, I honestly don't know how I'd feel about it. It's impossible for me to know for sure.
and actually, my feelings are entirely relevant to the decision. how are they not? it has nothing to do with ego, I should be involved in the decision. does she have the final say? absolutely, it's her body. but I'd like to state my case, if that's what I felt was right for that situation.
(just so you know, I'm hitting the hay, so if there are more responses, I'll catch them in the morning).
Gimli 1993
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St. Paul 2014
I've known many women to go through this particular issue and I can tell you that oftentimes it's the courtesy for the man and the sense of what he deserves (or doesn't deserve to have laid on him) and concern for his feelings that lead a woman to NOT tell him.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Comments
Cheers all.
*NYC 9/28/96 *NYC 9/29/96 *NJ 9/8/98 (front row "may i play drums with you")
*MSG 9/10/98 (backstage) *MSG 9/11/98 (backstage)
*Jones Beach 8/23/00 *Jones Beach 8/24/00 *Jones Beach 8/25/00
*Mansfield 8/29/00 *Mansfield 8/30/00 *Nassau 4/30/03 *Nissan VA 7/1/03
*Borgata 10/1/05 *Camden 5/27/06 *Camden 5/28/06 *DC 5/30/06
*VA Beach 6/17/08 *DC 6/22/08 *MSG 6/24/08 (backstage) *MSG 6/25/08
*EV DC 8/17/08 *EV Baltimore 6/15/09 *Philly 10/31/09
*Bristow VA 5/13/10 *MSG 5/20/10 *MSG 5/21/10
In essence, every man is a potential baby killer.
Yes, I am posting non-disturbing images of early abortions to prove my point. My point is that images of early abortions are not disturbing.
Do you agree with my point or would you like to explain why you disagree? Do you want me to say that I agree that images of late abortion are disturbing? Sure, I'll acknowledge that for you. (I thought I already had.) Here goes: Images of late abortions are (can be) disturbing (in many ways).
What's your point?? Did you find the people in the images of early abortions or not? Are you saying there are people in those photographs? Seriously, what's your point? :? Are you just still so upset from the old conversation we had about third-trimester fetuses that you can't let it go or something? :?
I like to think of that little bit Carlin did in one of his acts:
"Many people believe that life begins at conception....which is when the sperm fertilizes the egg. That fertilized egg travels through the fallopian tube and into the uterus but yet never becomes attatched to the uterine wall. It just get flushed out of a woman's body during those delightful few days she has. Yet these eggs that she passes ARE fertilized eggs. So what these Christian conservatives are trying to say is that any woman who has had more than one period is a serial killer.
Hey, I'm just looking for a little consistency in these abortion arguments."
9/29/04 Boston, 6/28/08 Mansfield, 8/23/09 Chicago, 5/15/10 Hartford
5/17/10 Boston, 10/15/13 Worcester, 10/16/13 Worcester, 10/25/13 Hartford
8/5/16 Fenway, 8/7/16 Fenway
EV Solo: 6/16/11 Boston, 6/18/11 Hartford,
what the hell has happened to this place? why have people turned so damn mean?
that was totally uncalled for and added absolutely nothing to the debate.
Your taking advise from Godfather? :roll:
I personally don't think scb was baiting, she made a statement and then clarified any misunderstandings- I think some of you might have a personal grudge against her or have wounds that haven't healed. Why else would you continue repeating the same comments on something that was address pages ago........
cut the spam.... :arrow:
Ah, the old Center for Bio-Ethical Reform... founders of the Genocide Awareness Project, the people who bring you the billboard trucks with pictures of piles of "aborted" fetuses reaching out from pools of blood next to Holocaust victims and who say abortion causes cervical cancer... The people whose website, AbortionNO.org, says "CBR condemns all abortion related violence and will not associate with groups or individuals who fail to condemn such violence." What an unbiased, scientific source! :roll: I'm actually surprised and disappointed that you of all people would chose them as your source of medical information.
For one thing, the authenticity of their photographs is frequently called into question - but no one is allowed to say much publicly, in writing, because the group threatens to sue the shit out of anyone who tries to say anything against them. So all conversation is silenced, because even if you won the lawsuit you'd be out a shit ton of money. That's hardly what I'd call peer-reviewed scientific consensus.
Regardless, here's what you should know about these photographs, even if they really are aborted fetuses: As I said before, I'm not denying that fetuses develop and grow fingers and eyeballs and such things. They do at later stages of pregnancy. But these pictures are labeled so as to be intentionally deceitful. When a picture is labeled 7 weeks, it's really about 10 weeks. There are two reasons they're able to get away with this:
1) They label the pictures using "fetal age" (counting from fertilization) instead of gestational age coinciding with your last menstrual period (LMP), which fits with a 40-week pregnancy. The problem is that the medical community uses LMP. (Even when you get an ultrasound, it's calculated so as to use LMP dating for a 40-week scale.) The difference between fetal age and regular gestational dating by LMP is that ovulation and conception don't actually happen until about 2 weeks after your LMP. So fetal age is 2 weeks younger than the gestational age that your doctor said you are. So that means when your doctor tell your you're 7 weeks pregnant, the fetal age would be 5 weeks. So when the Center for Bio-Ethical Reform shows you a picture of what they call a 7-week fetus, it's really a 9-week fetus by all standard convention. (If you don't believe me, they say so right here: http://www.abortionno.org/pdf/LevatinoLetterMay08.pdf)
2) Except here's why it's really a 10-week fetus: Gestational age is measured in weeks and a week has 7 days in it. So you can be 7 weeks and 0 days, 7 weeks and 1 day, 7 weeks & 2, 7 & 3, and so on, up to 7 weeks & 6 days. Your doctor, when dating your pregnancy, will be specific. But if you're being sloppy about your dating and not noting the days, that entire span of a week can be considered 7 weeks, even though the end of it is just shy of a week older.
So if I'm talking about a 7-week & 0-day-old fetus, this group will show you an image of a 9-week & 6-day old fetus and tell you it's the same thing. (And those are just two of their tricks.) So when you're looking at the pictures, just add 3 weeks to whatever gestational age they say it is and you'll have a better sense of reality. Then form your opinions based on that. (I'd also suggest removing the sensationalism of the hand reaching out from a pool of blood and such things.)
You know a couple of other things I find suspect while looking around their website, by the way? Their so-called certificate of authenticity has no name and is dated 2008. Yet they've been using these pictures for much longer than that. Hmm... Their only "proof" only recently showed up and there is no way of verifying it. Convenient.
Oh well, like I said just note the way they try to trick you with labeling and sensationalism. Then look at the picture 'til your heart's content. It doesn't change my beliefs one bit.
Please see my post above about how your 8-week picture is really an 11-week picture.
Not what I got from SCB's post. Simply the inaccurate depictions of what an abortion looks like by anti-choice humans doesn't reflect reality. Whats not to understand? It may not meet your justification for your position but it is what it is.
As to a mans rights????!!!!!????? Are you kidding me? You bust a nut, if the womans lucky 15 minutes of effort. Then the womans body is stressed to the max with pregnacy for 9 months. She ultimately takes care of the baby 99.9999% of the time after birth.....my view is a man has NO right to tell a woman what to do with her body.
as a paramedic, i have lots of medical experience, but abortions are not something i deal with. i'm more about taking care of the living.
i am not pro-abortion. I am pro-choice. i believe that every woman should be able to decide what to do with her own body without restrictions placed on her by anybody else. i also believe that for the people that choose the option to abort, then we need good, experienced people like Dr George Tiller, hence the reason i was horrified by his death.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
hello, angry woman!
You have NO idea what you are talking about. I am a father of two, and I take care of my girls just as much as my wife does. Your assessment is from the 50's, and has no basis in reality. If this is YOUR personal experience, then my sympathy is with you, but that is by no means the majority anymore.
If I got a woman pregnant, and she wanted to abort, your damn right she'd better fucking consult me. It's my kid too. Don't bring that "the woman has to carry it for 9 months" shit. That's not a choice any man can make. That's nature. You can't fault a man for that.
Fargo 2003
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St. Paul 2014
even if it was a one night stand youd want to be consulted???
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I've already stated that I'm pro-choice, but I don't see your point, really. You say that there is no person in that picture so that it's not really murder, or whatever buzzword pro-lifers use these days.
Does it really matter what gimme calls "cellular goo" looks like to know that it's a living organism? We all know that there isn't a 6 foot person the moment conception happens, so again, I'll ask you what you were looking for with your presentation?
Fargo 2003
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no question about it. why would that matter? my child is my child. my relationship to the mother doesn't make it any less so.
Fargo 2003
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ok im gonna play devils advocate here. and please dont take this as me questioning your character.
what if it was just one drunken adulterous night? what if the woman knowing what this could do to your life, and having already chosen to abort due to her own circumstances, just went ahead and did so. youd be none the wiser. and yes i realise that the woman is making decisions for you re: your situation that clearly youve already stated she basically has no right to do. or are we just talking about a courtesy call where she informs you shes pregnant,if in fact you exchanged numbers and she knows where you can be contacted, she tells you what her plans are and you respect her enough to allow her to make that decision?
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I think it's great that you're a good partner and father. You have my respect for that. But I'd like to see some sort of data showing that most men are like you.
Also, you can't fault a woman for nature either, can you?
I don't view having kids as an inconvenience in life (not saying you are, obviously, doll
Of course, there are no laws for the father's rights, so in the end I couldn't stop her from doing it if she really wanted to, but again, I'd appreciate the knowledge.
I'll ask you something........if I had random sex with this woman, how she could possibly KNOW what having this kid would do to my life without consulting me? That's the problem. That's why I deserve to be consulted.
That being said, with regards to your last point, if she was just calling me to say "I'm pregnant with your child, but I'm getting rid of it", I'd probably rather not know at all. If it's a done deal, there's no sense in the agony.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
i apologise. i was thinking of a situation where they actually had a conversation before the drunken sex part kicked in. not one of those hey baby(hiccup) wanna fuck? situations.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Of course you can't fault the woman for nature. My point is I can't stand the bullshit argument that some women resort to when they've run out of meaningful points: "I walked around like a penguin and shot a turkey through a straw and you want to be consulted on (insert whatever here)??". It's BS. It's a position that only women, in my experience, that have deadbeat men in their lives take.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I appreciate your perspective, but I think you're missing the narrow focus of the thread. That, and the fact that everyone here already knows my positions on all those things, so my point wasn't to rehash or re-prove them, nor did I "want people to tell me why I shouldn't be pro-choice".
I have also made no statements about murder, cellular goo, living organisms, or 6-foot people. I am happy to have those conversations elsewhere, but they are not relevant to this thread.
What I was looking for in my presentation was a realization that most abortions are not represented by the images with which we are constantly bombarded.
Perhaps I shouldn't have said, "For all of you who think having an abortion necessarily kills a person, please identify the person in these photographs" - but I think everyone has missed my use of the word "necessarily". I am not (in this thread or for this reason or in this way) suggesting that there is no person to be found in ANY abortion photo - I am saying there is not a person to be found in EVERY abortion photo. And I never took that further to say that abortion is okay or that everyone should be pro-choice. Some of you are just extrapolating.
But the end result is the same for me. I would want to know, and I feel that I deserve that courtesy. But I guess maybe I can see the woman's perspective on it. "why bother? he's just going to be all weird and it's going to make this more difficult". I guess the stereotypical male has been shown to act this way, I just don't think it's the norm anymore, and more woman in these situations that many men would actually WANT to know.
Fargo 2003
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Fargo 2003
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tbh that sounds like a powerplay to me. lording it over the guy that when it comes down to it he really has no say in it. i dont understand why she would do that.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Whether women doing all the work is no longer in the majority is, as you said, a matter of perspective. Some people have a different perspective and different experiences. I'm not sure how you can say that callen has NO idea what she is talking about and her(?) perspective has no basis in reality. What makes your experience any more representative of reality than hers? :?
I understand that this whole fathers' rights issue is difficult and often heartbreaking for men. The problem is, there's really no good solution. There isn't really a middle ground. If the two of you disagree, ONE of you has to decide. Either you get to decide or she does. It's not fair, but it's life. And if only one of you gets to decide (and that's the fault of nature, not law), then it makes sense that it should be the person whose body the baby is a part of and who will (likely) ultimately have more responsibility for the child (if there's an imbalance of responsibility). There's really no other choice when it comes down to it. So, yeah, it would be nice to be in a situation where both partners could be a team and make the decision together, but that's not always the case. And I know you said you "deserve" to be consulted and would like to be shown the same "courtesy" as the woman - and that's true. But it's not really about whether the guy is deserving or him being shown courtesy. It's about the pregnancy and the best decision to make about it. So if it's ultimately the woman's decision and she already knows what she thinks is best, then talking about the courtesy the guy deserve kind of seems to be more about his feelings and ego than about the actual pregnancy, no? Not that men's feelings aren't important - but they're not necessarily related to the decision at hand.
I'm confused by your statement to cate though. You said and then
So which is it? :?
I've known many women to go through this particular issue and I can tell you that oftentimes it's the courtesy for the man and the sense of what he deserves (or doesn't deserve to have laid on him) and concern for his feelings that lead a woman to NOT tell him.
because hers is a blanket statement of the stereotypical asshole man, and I happen to know SEVERAL men that are not like that, which blows that claim out of the water.
of course in the end it's the woman's decision. I made that clear already.
my two statements to cate were about two different situations. the first was in the case where the woman and I sat down and talked about it, not knowing where the conversation would lead us, but obviously knowing it's her body, the decision is ultimately hers. the second one was a hypothetical that if the woman in question had made up her mind entirely and was just calling to tell me she was going to do it, well, I honestly don't know how I'd feel about it. It's impossible for me to know for sure.
and actually, my feelings are entirely relevant to the decision. how are they not? it has nothing to do with ego, I should be involved in the decision. does she have the final say? absolutely, it's her body. but I'd like to state my case, if that's what I felt was right for that situation.
(just so you know, I'm hitting the hay, so if there are more responses, I'll catch them in the morning).
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014