- I'm still really trying to wrap my brain around what it means to involve the man in the decision when a woman already knows what she wants. What does it mean to "stand up for what you want"? If a woman who may or may not be your partner wants to have an abortion and you don't want her to, are you trying to convince her to do what you think is best rather than what she thinks is best? What is the objective? :?
there's really nothing to wrap your head around. Have you never changed your mind about anything after hearing another perspective?
And it's not even necessarily about changing her mind. It's about discussing it as adults. I think I'm owed that much. I don't get why it's too much to ask to be civil in an awkward and potentially life-changing situation.
Of course I've changed my mind before after hearing another perspective. But how is that relevant if it's not about changing her mind? :?
Again, it sounds like you just want to say your peace whether she makes your decisions or not, and I understand why you would feel that way - but if that's the case, I think it's more about you than the decision at hand. For lack of a better analogy, it seems kind of like when parents let their children believe they are part of the decision-making process just to make them feel good, when the child really doesn't get to make the decision.
Keep in mind that I'm not talking about women who are unsure of what to do and require your input to make their decision. There are plenty of women in that position who do consult their partners. I'm talking about women who already know what decision they think is best.
I'm happy that YOU have a situation where you can discuss things as adults and work as a team to make a decision and I think it's reasonable to want to be consulted. I just don't think your situation is generalizable and I don't think everyone who wants to be consulted should necessarily be consulted.
It's relevant because I generally don't go into conversations with anyone intent on changing their minds in any one direction. I go to information-gather so I can make an informed decision myself. Starting a conversation merely out of selfish need is just that, selfish. Who knows, maybe after speaking with her, I'd agree to getting it done.
Comparing what I'm saying to a parent-child relationship is insulting. As I said before, it's not about my ego being stroked or just wanting someone to hear me speak for the sake of hearing me speak.
re: your last sentence: And that's the point, isn't it? How does one adult know what's best for two adults and a potential child WITHOUT the conversation?
Anyway, at this point, I think we're beating a dead horse here.
Post edited by Hugh Freaking Dillon on
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
exactly. let's all keep in mind that it's not even "if a man has sex with a woman", it's "if a man and a woman have sex with each other". equal responsibility should carry through the whole process, IMO.
It's not a choice. If a man has sex with a woman and the woman becomes pregnant, the man has to know. The responsibility is equally his. My opinion.
I agree that men should take equal responsibility throughout the whole process (though I think both of you are living in some kind of fantasy land). But some men don't want to know and some women don't want to tell them, and I don't see how that's anyone else's business.
I know you didn't. I just wanted to point out a seeming inequality in the perception of this matter. Not by you. By some. I just think it's important to not lay blame, when people say "he got her pregnant", that insinuates blame if the pregnancy is not wanted. I prefer "they got pregnant". You know. I know it's splitting hairs to some, but just sayin'.
I wholeheartedly agree. And let's not forget that this goes both ways.
exactly. let's all keep in mind that it's not even "if a man has sex with a woman", it's "if a man and a woman have sex with each other". equal responsibility should carry through the whole process, IMO.
It's not a choice. If a man has sex with a woman and the woman becomes pregnant, the man has to know. The responsibility is equally his. My opinion.
I agree that men should take equal responsibility throughout the whole process (though I think both of you are living in some kind of fantasy land). But some men don't want to know and some women don't want to tell them, and I don't see how that's anyone else's business.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Of course I've changed my mind before after hearing another perspective. But how is that relevant if it's not about changing her mind? :?
Again, it sounds like you just want to say your peace whether she makes your decisions or not, and I understand why you would feel that way - but if that's the case, I think it's more about you than the decision at hand. For lack of a better analogy, it seems kind of like when parents let their children believe they are part of the decision-making process just to make them feel good, when the child really doesn't get to make the decision.
Keep in mind that I'm not talking about women who are unsure of what to do and require your input to make their decision. There are plenty of women in that position who do consult their partners. I'm talking about women who already know what decision they think is best.
I'm happy that YOU have a situation where you can discuss things as adults and work as a team to make a decision and I think it's reasonable to want to be consulted. I just don't think your situation is generalizable and I don't think everyone who wants to be consulted should necessarily be consulted.
It's relevant because I generally don't go into conversations with anyone intent on changing their minds in any one direction. I go to information-gather so I can make an informed decision myself. Starting a conversation merely out of selfish need is just that, selfish. Who knows, maybe after speaking with her, I'd agree to getting it done.
Comparing what I'm saying to a parent-child relationship is insulting. As I said before, it's not about my ego being stroked or just wanting someone to hear me speak for the sake of hearing me speak.
re: your last sentence: And that's the point, isn't it? How does one adult know what's best for two adults and a potential child WITHOUT the conversation?
Anyway, at this point, I think we're beating a dead horse here.
Well I'm glad you're such a good and reasonable man. I wish all men could be like you.
Sorry to offend you and if I think of a better analogy I'll be sure to let you know. And, again, I wasn't necessarily referring to your situation.
When a woman gets pregnant, she has to decide what's best for her and her potential child, and her family as a whole. What's best for the the guy is, frankly, secondary. So I don't think she's really deciding what's best for the guy; she's deciding what's best for the potential child and her family - and telling the guy is not always best for the potential child and the family.
I'll give you some real-life examples from people I know:
- A 19-year-old woman was convinced by her boyfriend at 16 to continue "their" pregnancy. She didn't think she could handle it alone but he swore he would pull his weight, so she trusted him, took his opinion into consideration, and had the baby. Now they're married, but he doesn't help out in any way, the child in uncontrollable, and the woman appears to be on the verge of completing losing her mind. She was right that she couldn't handle a child alone. Now she's pregnant again and she knows he would want her to have this baby too - and do everything he could to coerce her into having it if he knew she was pregnant. She simply cannot handle a newborn and an uncontrollable toddler with no help. He cannot be trusted to help. She would like to be able to turn to him for support, but her experience tells her that he will not be supportive. The only thing she can count on from him is constant fighting and possible abuse and/or abandonment if he knows she's pregnant and having an abortion. Does she owe him the courtesy of having the conversation? Would that be best for her family?
- A 25-year-old woman slept with her drug dealer for free drugs. She is certain she will have an abortion, especially since she has been using drugs the whole time she was pregnant. Her relationship with the guy does not go beyond him exploiting her addiction to take advantage of her sexually and her depending on him for her next fix. Neither of them are in a position to be good parents. Does she owe him the courtesy of having the conversation? Would that be best for her situation?
- A 27-year-old woman is in a relationship with a man who has several kids he doesn't support from other women. They have one child together. He has been clear with her that he'd leave her if she ever got herself knocked up. Does she owe him the courtesy of having the conversation? Would that be best for her family?
- A 32-year-old woman is in the process of a divorce. She and her husband have 2-year-old twins. They had planned to abort the twins but changed their minds when they found out they were expecting twins. So she had the kids and then he left them, and she's having a hard time caring for them on her own. She just found out she's pregnant (from her husband). She knows she can't care for 3 small children and plans to have an abortion. Does she owe him the courtesy of having the conversation? Would that be best for her family?
I'm sure there are better examples than these, but these are the first ones I could recall. See, the thing is, not all men react well to the news of a pregnancy and not all of them work as a reasoned partnership to come to a good solution. Many men bail at the first mention of pregnancy and some women don't want to lose them, either for their own sake or the sake of their children. Many men are coercive - emotionally, mentally, & physically - and some women don't feel like they can deal with such opposition (whether he wants her to continue the pregnancy or is just pissed that she got knocked up) at such an already difficult time in their lives, and don't want to bring such turmoil into their families or relationships. Some men are just unfit, untrustworthy assholes, and their opinions don't matter to the women anyway so why would they want to invite them into the situation? Some girls are young and easily influenced, and their parents advise them that this should be their decision, since they will have to live with the consequences forever, not the decision of some punk-ass kid who will likely bail at the first dirty diaper. There are just SO many different circumstances! I could go on, but I'll try to refrain.
You're probably right that we're beating a dead horse. And this wasn't the topic of the thread anyway.
Well I'm glad you're such a good and reasonable man. I wish all men could be like you.
Sorry to offend you and if I think of a better analogy I'll be sure to let you know. And, again, I wasn't necessarily referring to your situation.
When a woman gets pregnant, she has to decide what's best for her and her potential child, and her family as a whole. What's best for the the guy is, frankly, secondary. So I don't think she's really deciding what's best for the guy; she's deciding what's best for the potential child and her family - and telling the guy is not always best for the potential child and the family.
I'll give you some real-life examples from people I know:
- A 19-year-old woman was convinced by her boyfriend at 16 to continue "their" pregnancy. She didn't think she could handle it alone but he swore he would pull his weight, so she trusted him, took his opinion into consideration, and had the baby. Now they're married, but he doesn't help out in any way, the child in uncontrollable, and the woman appears to be on the verge of completing losing her mind. She was right that she couldn't handle a child alone. Now she's pregnant again and she knows he would want her to have this baby too - and do everything he could to coerce her into having it if he knew she was pregnant. She simply cannot handle a newborn and an uncontrollable toddler with no help. He cannot be trusted to help. She would like to be able to turn to him for support, but her experience tells her that he will not be supportive. The only thing she can count on from him is constant fighting and possible abuse and/or abandonment if he knows she's pregnant and having an abortion. Does she owe him the courtesy of having the conversation? Would that be best for her family?
- A 25-year-old woman slept with her drug dealer for free drugs. She is certain she will have an abortion, especially since she has been using drugs the whole time she was pregnant. Her relationship with the guy does not go beyond him exploiting her addiction to take advantage of her sexually and her depending on him for her next fix. Neither of them are in a position to be good parents. Does she owe him the courtesy of having the conversation? Would that be best for her situation?
- A 27-year-old woman is in a relationship with a man who has several kids he doesn't support from other women. They have one child together. He has been clear with her that he'd leave her if she ever got herself knocked up. Does she owe him the courtesy of having the conversation? Would that be best for her family?
- A 32-year-old woman is in the process of a divorce. She and her husband have 2-year-old twins. They had planned to abort the twins but changed their minds when they found out they were expecting twins. So she had the kids and then he left them, and she's having a hard time caring for them on her own. She just found out she's pregnant (from her husband). She knows she can't care for 3 small children and plans to have an abortion. Does she owe him the courtesy of having the conversation? Would that be best for her family?
I'm sure there are better examples than these, but these are the first ones I could recall. See, the thing is, not all men react well to the news of a pregnancy and not all of them work as a reasoned partnership to come to a good solution. Many men bail at the first mention of pregnancy and some women don't want to lose them, either for their own sake or the sake of their children. Many men are coercive - emotionally, mentally, & physically - and some women don't feel like they can deal with such opposition (whether he wants her to continue the pregnancy or is just pissed that she got knocked up) at such an already difficult time in their lives, and don't want to bring such turmoil into their families or relationships. Some men are just unfit, untrustworthy assholes, and their opinions don't matter to the women anyway so why would they want to invite them into the situation? Some girls are young and easily influenced, and their parents advise them that this should be their decision, since they will have to live with the consequences forever, not the decision of some punk-ass kid who will likely bail at the first dirty diaper. There are just SO many different circumstances! I could go on, but I'll try to refrain.
You're probably right that we're beating a dead horse. And this wasn't the topic of the thread anyway.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Well I'm glad you're such a good and reasonable man. I wish all men could be like you.
Sorry to offend you and if I think of a better analogy I'll be sure to let you know. And, again, I wasn't necessarily referring to your situation.
When a woman gets pregnant, she has to decide what's best for her and her potential child, and her family as a whole. What's best for the the guy is, frankly, secondary. So I don't think she's really deciding what's best for the guy; she's deciding what's best for the potential child and her family - and telling the guy is not always best for the potential child and the family.
I'll give you some real-life examples from people I know:
- A 19-year-old woman was convinced by her boyfriend at 16 to continue "their" pregnancy. She didn't think she could handle it alone but he swore he would pull his weight, so she trusted him, took his opinion into consideration, and had the baby. Now they're married, but he doesn't help out in any way, the child in uncontrollable, and the woman appears to be on the verge of completing losing her mind. She was right that she couldn't handle a child alone. Now she's pregnant again and she knows he would want her to have this baby too - and do everything he could to coerce her into having it if he knew she was pregnant. She simply cannot handle a newborn and an uncontrollable toddler with no help. He cannot be trusted to help. She would like to be able to turn to him for support, but her experience tells her that he will not be supportive. The only thing she can count on from him is constant fighting and possible abuse and/or abandonment if he knows she's pregnant and having an abortion. Does she owe him the courtesy of having the conversation? Would that be best for her family?
- A 25-year-old woman slept with her drug dealer for free drugs. She is certain she will have an abortion, especially since she has been using drugs the whole time she was pregnant. Her relationship with the guy does not go beyond him exploiting her addiction to take advantage of her sexually and her depending on him for her next fix. Neither of them are in a position to be good parents. Does she owe him the courtesy of having the conversation? Would that be best for her situation?
- A 27-year-old woman is in a relationship with a man who has several kids he doesn't support from other women. They have one child together. He has been clear with her that he'd leave her if she ever got herself knocked up. Does she owe him the courtesy of having the conversation? Would that be best for her family?
- A 32-year-old woman is in the process of a divorce. She and her husband have 2-year-old twins. They had planned to abort the twins but changed their minds when they found out they were expecting twins. So she had the kids and then he left them, and she's having a hard time caring for them on her own. She just found out she's pregnant (from her husband). She knows she can't care for 3 small children and plans to have an abortion. Does she owe him the courtesy of having the conversation? Would that be best for her family?
I'm sure there are better examples than these, but these are the first ones I could recall. See, the thing is, not all men react well to the news of a pregnancy and not all of them work as a reasoned partnership to come to a good solution. Many men bail at the first mention of pregnancy and some women don't want to lose them, either for their own sake or the sake of their children. Many men are coercive - emotionally, mentally, & physically - and some women don't feel like they can deal with such opposition (whether he wants her to continue the pregnancy or is just pissed that she got knocked up) at such an already difficult time in their lives, and don't want to bring such turmoil into their families or relationships. Some men are just unfit, untrustworthy assholes, and their opinions don't matter to the women anyway so why would they want to invite them into the situation? Some girls are young and easily influenced, and their parents advise them that this should be their decision, since they will have to live with the consequences forever, not the decision of some punk-ass kid who will likely bail at the first dirty diaper. There are just SO many different circumstances! I could go on, but I'll try to refrain.
You're probably right that we're beating a dead horse. And this wasn't the topic of the thread anyway.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Day 1: Conception: Of the 200,000,000 sperm that try to penetrate the mother’s egg cell, only one succeeds.2 At that very moment, a new and unique individual is formed. All of the inherited features of this new person are already set – whether it’s a boy or girl, the color of the eyes, the color of the hair, the dimples of the cheeks and the cleft of the chin. He or she is smaller than a grain of sugar, but the instructions are present for all that this person will ever become.
The first cell soon divides in two. Each of these new cells divides again and again as they travel toward the womb in search of a protected place to grow.3
Day 6-14:The new individual at first attaches loosely to the wall of the womb, then burrows deeply and attaches securely to it over the next week. Sensitive pregnancy tests can now show positive, but this depends on the level of hormone produced by the new life. By the end of the second week, the mother’s menstrual period is suppressed by this hormone (hCG) which is produced by her child.4
Day 17:Blood vessels begin to form.4 Remarkably, the future sex cells that will give rise to sperm or eggs for a new generation begin to group together - only 17 days after this new life is alive itself.5
Day 18-20:The foundations of the brain, spinal cord, and nervous system are laid.6
Day 21:The heart begins to beat,7 unsurely at first, gaining strength day by day. The heart beats 70 times per minute at first, reaching a maximum of 170-190 at seven weeks, and slowing a bit to 160-180 at 9 weeks.8 A day later the eyes begin to develop. The earliest stages of the ears are now present.9
Day 26-27:The lungs now begin to form.10
Day 28-32:Two tiny arms make their appearance and budding legs follow two days later.11 The beginnings of the mouth take shape.12 The nose starts to develop.13 The thyroid gland begins to grow. Blood flows in the baby’s veins but stays separate from the mother’s blood. The tongue now begins to form. The face now makes its first appearance.14
Day 36:The baby’s eyes develop their first color in the retina (see photo above, right).15
Day 40:The baby makes her first reflex movements. Touching around the mouth with a fine bristle causes her to flex her neck.16
Day 41:The fingers begin to form, followed by the toes a few days later.17
Day 42:The baby develops nerve connections that will lead to a sense of smell. The brain is now divided into 3 parts – one to experience emotion and understand language, one for hearing and one for seeing. 18 Joints begin to form.19 Mother now misses second period.
Day 44:Buds of milk teeth appear. Facial muscles develop.20 Eyelids begin to form, protecting the developing eyes.21 Elbows take shape. Internal organs are present, but immature. 99% of muscles are present; each with its own nerve supply.22 Electrical activity is detectable in brain.23
Day 52:Spontaneous movement begins. The baby then develops a whole collection of moves over the next 4 weeks including hiccupping, frowning, squinting, furrowing the brow, pursing the lips, moving individual arms and legs, head turning, touching the face, breathing (without air), stretching, opening the mouth, yawning, and sucking.24
8 Weeks:The baby is now well-proportioned, and about the size of a thumb. Every organ is present. The liver is making blood, the kidneys function, and the heart beats steadily. The skull, elbows, and knees are forming. Of the 4500 structures in the adult body, 4000 are already present.25 The skeleton of the arms and legs and the spine begins to stiffen as bone cells are added.26
9 Weeks9 If prodded, the baby’s eyelids and hands close. Genitalia that were forming in the 7th week now become visible, indicating whether it’s a boy or girl. However, the doctor won’t be able to tell by ultrasound until the 12th to 20th week. Early muscular movements begin. The thyroid gland turns on.27
10 Weeks10 Fingerprints begin their 7 week long formation. The fingernails begin to develop. The eyelids now fuse together until month 7, protecting the delicate eyes.28 The number of connections between nerves and muscles has tripled since last week.29
11 Weeks11 The baby now "practices" breathing, since she will have to breathe air immediately after birth. The baby urinates. Her stomach muscles can now contract.30 Vocal chords and taste buds form.31 She can make complex facial expressions and even smile.32
12 Weeks12 Fine hair begins to grow on the upper lip and chin and eyebrows.33 The baby swallows and responds to skin stimulation.32
13 Weeks13 The face is prettier, and facial expressions may resemble the parents’. The baby is active, but mom doesn’t feel anything yet.34
15 Weeks15 A wild production of nerve cells begins and continues for a month. A second surge will occur at 25 weeks.35
4 MonthsNostrils and toenails become visible. The baby may suck her thumb, turn somersaults and has a firm grip. The ovaries of girls contain beginnings of eggs. She begins to develop sleeping habits.32 At about 4 ½ months she is able to experience pain.36, 37
5 MonthsThe testes descend in boys. Mom may feel the baby kick, turn or hiccup and may be able to identify a bulge as an elbow or head.38 Each side of the brain has a billion nerve cells now.36
6 MonthsThe baby will be able to hear by next week.39 The child sleeps and wakes, nestling in her favorite positions to sleep, and stretches upon waking up.40
7 MonthsThe eyelids begin to reopen, preparing to see the outside world.41 Eyelashes have now become well developed.42
8 MonthsSkin becomes pink and smooth. The pupils of eye respond to light. Fingernails reach to the tip of the finger.42 The baby is really getting cramped now.
9.5 MonthsThe child triggers labor and birth occurs, an average of 264-270 days after conception.43
And not until the baby has gone through all these events on the inside can we see the new child on the outside.
I don't have time to read all that right now, though I would recommend getting your fetal development info from medical websites instead of anti-abortion websites.
I just want to point out real quick, though, that this (like the Center for Bio-Ethical Reform) is also not counting gestation like it is counted by doctors. (Just note that it says conception occurs on day 1.) So everyone should just add at least 2 weeks to every date it gives.
Also note that the pictures, whether real or not, are viewed from a microscope.
I don't have time to read all that right now, though I would recommend getting your fetal development info from medical websites instead of anti-abortion websites.
I just want to point out real quick, though, that this (like the Center for Bio-Ethical Reform) is also not counting gestation like it is counted by doctors. (Just note that it says conception occurs on day 1.) So everyone should just add at least 2 weeks to every date it gives.
Also note that the pictures, whether real or not, are viewed from a microscope.[/quote
For cryin out loud scb. :? :roll: it's not like planned parent hood have this info. You can try to paint a pretty picture about geting an abortion but facts are facts. You are destroying a future life. Also your comment about whether the pics are real are not strikes me as you could care less about what other people think. and who cares if it's viewed from a microscope ?
and guess what ? I survived Roe vs. Wade
I don't have time to read all that right now, though I would recommend getting your fetal development info from medical websites instead of anti-abortion websites.
I just want to point out real quick, though, that this (like the Center for Bio-Ethical Reform) is also not counting gestation like it is counted by doctors. (Just note that it says conception occurs on day 1.) So everyone should just add at least 2 weeks to every date it gives.
Also note that the pictures, whether real or not, are viewed from a microscope.
was the first picture you put up also seen via a microscope scb?
I don't have time to read all that right now, though I would recommend getting your fetal development info from medical websites instead of anti-abortion websites.
I just want to point out real quick, though, that this (like the Center for Bio-Ethical Reform) is also not counting gestation like it is counted by doctors. (Just note that it says conception occurs on day 1.) So everyone should just add at least 2 weeks to every date it gives.
Also note that the pictures, whether real or not, are viewed from a microscope.
For cryin out loud scb. :? :roll: it's not like planned parent hood have this info. You can try to paint a pretty picture about geting an abortion but facts are facts. You are destroying a future life. Also your comment about whether the pics are real are not strikes me as you could care less about what other people think. and who cares if it's viewed from a microscope ?
and guess what ? I survived Roe vs. Wade [/quote]
I'm not trying to paint a pretty picture and I have never said it wouldn't be a future life. I'm just trying to present some previously unavailable information to shed some more light on the subject. I'm trying to paint an ACCURATE picture and I can't understand why you would have a problem with that. If you believe in your position so much, why should a few facts bother you? Whether the pictures are real are not has absolutely nothing to do with what other people think. Either they're real or they're not. It's not a matter of opinion. As for the microscope, it presents a view of things that is altered from what it would be if you looked at it yourself. I think that's important to note. I didn't say it changed anything. Again, why are you so bothered by my desire to accurately and precisely identify things? Why are you so bothered by facts?? :?
I don't have time to read all that right now, though I would recommend getting your fetal development info from medical websites instead of anti-abortion websites.
I just want to point out real quick, though, that this (like the Center for Bio-Ethical Reform) is also not counting gestation like it is counted by doctors. (Just note that it says conception occurs on day 1.) So everyone should just add at least 2 weeks to every date it gives.
Also note that the pictures, whether real or not, are viewed from a microscope.
was the first picture you put up also seen via a microscope scb?
Comments
It's relevant because I generally don't go into conversations with anyone intent on changing their minds in any one direction. I go to information-gather so I can make an informed decision myself. Starting a conversation merely out of selfish need is just that, selfish. Who knows, maybe after speaking with her, I'd agree to getting it done.
Comparing what I'm saying to a parent-child relationship is insulting. As I said before, it's not about my ego being stroked or just wanting someone to hear me speak for the sake of hearing me speak.
re: your last sentence: And that's the point, isn't it? How does one adult know what's best for two adults and a potential child WITHOUT the conversation?
Anyway, at this point, I think we're beating a dead horse here.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I agree that men should take equal responsibility throughout the whole process (though I think both of you are living in some kind of fantasy land). But some men don't want to know and some women don't want to tell them, and I don't see how that's anyone else's business.
I wholeheartedly agree. And let's not forget that this goes both ways.
Saying "should" is not living in a fantasy world. If I said "does", that might be a different story.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Well I'm glad you're such a good and reasonable man. I wish all men could be like you.
Sorry to offend you and if I think of a better analogy I'll be sure to let you know. And, again, I wasn't necessarily referring to your situation.
When a woman gets pregnant, she has to decide what's best for her and her potential child, and her family as a whole. What's best for the the guy is, frankly, secondary. So I don't think she's really deciding what's best for the guy; she's deciding what's best for the potential child and her family - and telling the guy is not always best for the potential child and the family.
I'll give you some real-life examples from people I know:
- A 19-year-old woman was convinced by her boyfriend at 16 to continue "their" pregnancy. She didn't think she could handle it alone but he swore he would pull his weight, so she trusted him, took his opinion into consideration, and had the baby. Now they're married, but he doesn't help out in any way, the child in uncontrollable, and the woman appears to be on the verge of completing losing her mind. She was right that she couldn't handle a child alone. Now she's pregnant again and she knows he would want her to have this baby too - and do everything he could to coerce her into having it if he knew she was pregnant. She simply cannot handle a newborn and an uncontrollable toddler with no help. He cannot be trusted to help. She would like to be able to turn to him for support, but her experience tells her that he will not be supportive. The only thing she can count on from him is constant fighting and possible abuse and/or abandonment if he knows she's pregnant and having an abortion. Does she owe him the courtesy of having the conversation? Would that be best for her family?
- A 25-year-old woman slept with her drug dealer for free drugs. She is certain she will have an abortion, especially since she has been using drugs the whole time she was pregnant. Her relationship with the guy does not go beyond him exploiting her addiction to take advantage of her sexually and her depending on him for her next fix. Neither of them are in a position to be good parents. Does she owe him the courtesy of having the conversation? Would that be best for her situation?
- A 27-year-old woman is in a relationship with a man who has several kids he doesn't support from other women. They have one child together. He has been clear with her that he'd leave her if she ever got herself knocked up. Does she owe him the courtesy of having the conversation? Would that be best for her family?
- A 32-year-old woman is in the process of a divorce. She and her husband have 2-year-old twins. They had planned to abort the twins but changed their minds when they found out they were expecting twins. So she had the kids and then he left them, and she's having a hard time caring for them on her own. She just found out she's pregnant (from her husband). She knows she can't care for 3 small children and plans to have an abortion. Does she owe him the courtesy of having the conversation? Would that be best for her family?
I'm sure there are better examples than these, but these are the first ones I could recall. See, the thing is, not all men react well to the news of a pregnancy and not all of them work as a reasoned partnership to come to a good solution. Many men bail at the first mention of pregnancy and some women don't want to lose them, either for their own sake or the sake of their children. Many men are coercive - emotionally, mentally, & physically - and some women don't feel like they can deal with such opposition (whether he wants her to continue the pregnancy or is just pissed that she got knocked up) at such an already difficult time in their lives, and don't want to bring such turmoil into their families or relationships. Some men are just unfit, untrustworthy assholes, and their opinions don't matter to the women anyway so why would they want to invite them into the situation? Some girls are young and easily influenced, and their parents advise them that this should be their decision, since they will have to live with the consequences forever, not the decision of some punk-ass kid who will likely bail at the first dirty diaper. There are just SO many different circumstances! I could go on, but I'll try to refrain.
You're probably right that we're beating a dead horse. And this wasn't the topic of the thread anyway.
This is me being done with this thread.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
You asking for the law or opinions?
http://www.abortionfacts.com/literature ... .asp#day21
Day 1: Conception: Of the 200,000,000 sperm that try to penetrate the mother’s egg cell, only one succeeds.2 At that very moment, a new and unique individual is formed. All of the inherited features of this new person are already set – whether it’s a boy or girl, the color of the eyes, the color of the hair, the dimples of the cheeks and the cleft of the chin. He or she is smaller than a grain of sugar, but the instructions are present for all that this person will ever become.
The first cell soon divides in two. Each of these new cells divides again and again as they travel toward the womb in search of a protected place to grow.3
Day 6-14:The new individual at first attaches loosely to the wall of the womb, then burrows deeply and attaches securely to it over the next week. Sensitive pregnancy tests can now show positive, but this depends on the level of hormone produced by the new life. By the end of the second week, the mother’s menstrual period is suppressed by this hormone (hCG) which is produced by her child.4
Day 17:Blood vessels begin to form.4 Remarkably, the future sex cells that will give rise to sperm or eggs for a new generation begin to group together - only 17 days after this new life is alive itself.5
Day 18-20:The foundations of the brain, spinal cord, and nervous system are laid.6
Day 21:The heart begins to beat,7 unsurely at first, gaining strength day by day. The heart beats 70 times per minute at first, reaching a maximum of 170-190 at seven weeks, and slowing a bit to 160-180 at 9 weeks.8 A day later the eyes begin to develop. The earliest stages of the ears are now present.9
Day 26-27:The lungs now begin to form.10
Day 28-32:Two tiny arms make their appearance and budding legs follow two days later.11 The beginnings of the mouth take shape.12 The nose starts to develop.13 The thyroid gland begins to grow. Blood flows in the baby’s veins but stays separate from the mother’s blood. The tongue now begins to form. The face now makes its first appearance.14
Day 36:The baby’s eyes develop their first color in the retina (see photo above, right).15
Day 40:The baby makes her first reflex movements. Touching around the mouth with a fine bristle causes her to flex her neck.16
Day 41:The fingers begin to form, followed by the toes a few days later.17
Day 42:The baby develops nerve connections that will lead to a sense of smell. The brain is now divided into 3 parts – one to experience emotion and understand language, one for hearing and one for seeing. 18 Joints begin to form.19 Mother now misses second period.
Day 44:Buds of milk teeth appear. Facial muscles develop.20 Eyelids begin to form, protecting the developing eyes.21 Elbows take shape. Internal organs are present, but immature. 99% of muscles are present; each with its own nerve supply.22 Electrical activity is detectable in brain.23
Day 52:Spontaneous movement begins. The baby then develops a whole collection of moves over the next 4 weeks including hiccupping, frowning, squinting, furrowing the brow, pursing the lips, moving individual arms and legs, head turning, touching the face, breathing (without air), stretching, opening the mouth, yawning, and sucking.24
8 Weeks:The baby is now well-proportioned, and about the size of a thumb. Every organ is present. The liver is making blood, the kidneys function, and the heart beats steadily. The skull, elbows, and knees are forming. Of the 4500 structures in the adult body, 4000 are already present.25 The skeleton of the arms and legs and the spine begins to stiffen as bone cells are added.26
9 Weeks9 If prodded, the baby’s eyelids and hands close. Genitalia that were forming in the 7th week now become visible, indicating whether it’s a boy or girl. However, the doctor won’t be able to tell by ultrasound until the 12th to 20th week. Early muscular movements begin. The thyroid gland turns on.27
10 Weeks10 Fingerprints begin their 7 week long formation. The fingernails begin to develop. The eyelids now fuse together until month 7, protecting the delicate eyes.28 The number of connections between nerves and muscles has tripled since last week.29
11 Weeks11 The baby now "practices" breathing, since she will have to breathe air immediately after birth. The baby urinates. Her stomach muscles can now contract.30 Vocal chords and taste buds form.31 She can make complex facial expressions and even smile.32
12 Weeks12 Fine hair begins to grow on the upper lip and chin and eyebrows.33 The baby swallows and responds to skin stimulation.32
13 Weeks13 The face is prettier, and facial expressions may resemble the parents’. The baby is active, but mom doesn’t feel anything yet.34
15 Weeks15 A wild production of nerve cells begins and continues for a month. A second surge will occur at 25 weeks.35
4 MonthsNostrils and toenails become visible. The baby may suck her thumb, turn somersaults and has a firm grip. The ovaries of girls contain beginnings of eggs. She begins to develop sleeping habits.32 At about 4 ½ months she is able to experience pain.36, 37
5 MonthsThe testes descend in boys. Mom may feel the baby kick, turn or hiccup and may be able to identify a bulge as an elbow or head.38 Each side of the brain has a billion nerve cells now.36
6 MonthsThe baby will be able to hear by next week.39 The child sleeps and wakes, nestling in her favorite positions to sleep, and stretches upon waking up.40
7 MonthsThe eyelids begin to reopen, preparing to see the outside world.41 Eyelashes have now become well developed.42
8 MonthsSkin becomes pink and smooth. The pupils of eye respond to light. Fingernails reach to the tip of the finger.42 The baby is really getting cramped now.
9.5 MonthsThe child triggers labor and birth occurs, an average of 264-270 days after conception.43
And not until the baby has gone through all these events on the inside can we see the new child on the outside.
I don't have time to read all that right now, though I would recommend getting your fetal development info from medical websites instead of anti-abortion websites.
I just want to point out real quick, though, that this (like the Center for Bio-Ethical Reform) is also not counting gestation like it is counted by doctors. (Just note that it says conception occurs on day 1.) So everyone should just add at least 2 weeks to every date it gives.
Also note that the pictures, whether real or not, are viewed from a microscope.
either. both.
My opinion only...
I think that if the individual doing the killing knows the woman was pregnant (perhaps part of the motive), then yes.
Otherwise I think it should be a manslaughter charge tack onto the murder charge.
I don't have time to read all that right now, though I would recommend getting your fetal development info from medical websites instead of anti-abortion websites.
I just want to point out real quick, though, that this (like the Center for Bio-Ethical Reform) is also not counting gestation like it is counted by doctors. (Just note that it says conception occurs on day 1.) So everyone should just add at least 2 weeks to every date it gives.
Also note that the pictures, whether real or not, are viewed from a microscope.[/quote
For cryin out loud scb. :? :roll: it's not like planned parent hood have this info. You can try to paint a pretty picture about geting an abortion but facts are facts. You are destroying a future life. Also your comment about whether the pics are real are not strikes me as you could care less about what other people think. and who cares if it's viewed from a microscope ?
and guess what ? I survived Roe vs. Wade
was the first picture you put up also seen via a microscope scb?
Size matters?
For cryin out loud scb. :? :roll: it's not like planned parent hood have this info. You can try to paint a pretty picture about geting an abortion but facts are facts. You are destroying a future life. Also your comment about whether the pics are real are not strikes me as you could care less about what other people think. and who cares if it's viewed from a microscope ?
and guess what ? I survived Roe vs. Wade [/quote]
I'm not trying to paint a pretty picture and I have never said it wouldn't be a future life. I'm just trying to present some previously unavailable information to shed some more light on the subject. I'm trying to paint an ACCURATE picture and I can't understand why you would have a problem with that. If you believe in your position so much, why should a few facts bother you? Whether the pictures are real are not has absolutely nothing to do with what other people think. Either they're real or they're not. It's not a matter of opinion. As for the microscope, it presents a view of things that is altered from what it would be if you looked at it yourself. I think that's important to note. I didn't say it changed anything. Again, why are you so bothered by my desire to accurately and precisely identify things? Why are you so bothered by facts?? :?
No. :?
It does to some people.