10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer

dpmay · January 2010

i know there is a similar discussion going on in another thread, but i have not read all 30-some-odd pages, some i'm gonna keep posting here...

and besides, it was the video originally posted in this thread that got me interested in replying.

there seems to be sentiment in this thread (and the other one) that one of the things that bother some people about some christians is that they act very certain, sure of themselves, and act like the athiest or agnostic perspective is somehow immoral, and that it is their duty to convert non-believers.

i am here to point out that in fact some athiests do exactly the same thing - and it bothers me that their positions are considered rational, logical, reasonable, rather than just as judgemental as the christians they are attacking.

case in point: what if i believe the evidence for god's existense is completely overwhelming and say

"your non-religious beliefs hurt you personally and hurt us as a species becasue they are delusional. disbelief in any god is complete nonsense."

i think most nonbelievers would be either annoyed or offended. however, this is exactly what the guy in the original video said - just take out the "non-" and "dis". and no one has attacked his position as judgemental.

we have a lot of super-atheists like richard dawkins and christoher hitchens writing books, convincing intelligent people that belief in god in general and christianity in particular cannot be rational. but that is simply not so.

Gern Blansten · January 2010

Honestly the one thing that bothers me the most about christians is their arrogance

Not all christians certainly but I would say more than 50% have blinders on. Facebook is a good example....people constantly posting praises to god for their kids getting good grades, asking for prayers because they are sick, etc. (maybe they should have prayed to not get sick?)

It boils down to arrogance and ignorance and it's extremely annoying.

pandora · January 2010

lets just remember to feel for others and be kind whatever our beliefs

EddieLedBetter · January 2010

Ha why wont evolution just evolve a new arm or leg? Or maybe the amputees are just a result of natural selection, survival of the digits?

Gern Blansten · January 2010

EddieLedBetter wrote:

Ha why wont evolution just evolve a new arm or leg? Or maybe the amputees are just a result of natural selection, survival of the digits?

please tell me you are kidding

Beck.. · January 2010

EddieLedBetter wrote:

Ha why wont evolution just evolve a new arm or leg? Or maybe the amputees are just a result of natural selection, survival of the digits?

I think someone needs to tune into sanity Fm

EddieLedBetter · January 2010

Satirically speaking.

What is the "strange excuse" or "convoluted rationalizations" that science and or intelligent college answers creates for evolution breaking the 2nd law of thermodynamics aka the law of entropy?

CJMST3K · January 2010

Gern Blansten wrote:

10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer

EddieLedBetter wrote:

Ha why wont evolution just evolve a new arm or leg? Or maybe the amputees are just a result of natural selection, survival of the digits?

Hahahaha... I suppose my answer should be why start being logical now?!

I thought GB's post with 10 questions was valid, and yet, no one on the religious side dares to answer.

I'll answer your question though ELB, in hope you'll return the favor and answer GB's questions. Deal?

Evolution happens on a long term scale, either adapting to large-scale change, or as a mutation that coincidentally helps that one creature survive, and it's spawn keep the mutation, and continue on with the mutation/evolution. Evolution does not solve an individual creature losing an arm, leg, eyeball, etc - unless it's a problem that is so common with that species, that the creature evolves it's own defense, such as a lizard's tail which regenerates.

Ok... I answered your direct question. Will you answer maybe a few of the 10 questions?

(GB - would you please transcribe the 10 questions from the video to make it easier for someone who is actually willing to answer to do so?)

dpmay · January 2010

CJMST3K wrote:

I thought GB's post with 10 questions was valid, and yet, no one on the religious side dares to answer.

uhm, pardon me, but i have addressed nearly every one of these questions in this thread, most of them directly in my first post. i did this because i wanted to start a discussion about them - the actual questions the dude raises. they are good questions (well some of them anyway) and they are worth considering by both god-believers and god-non-believers as well.

and what is no one "dares" answer supposed to mean anyway?

dpmay · January 2010

Gern Blansten wrote:

Honestly the one thing that bothers me the most about christians is their arrogance

Not all christians certainly but I would say more than 50% have blinders on. Facebook is a good example....people constantly posting praises to god for their kids getting good grades, asking for prayers because they are sick, etc. (maybe they should have prayed to not get sick?)

It boils down to arrogance and ignorance and it's extremely annoying.

i agree - arrogance is annoying. but i would argue it is a generally human foible more than it is a specifically christian foible.

what is more arrogant - believing a god answers your prayers, or telling someone that they are hurting their species because of their religious beliefs? i think it's the second...

Hugh Freaking Dillon · January 2010

dpmay wrote:

essentially every culture that has ever existed believed in something. doesn't prove god's existence, of course not, but it is worth considering...

this is exactly the reason I believe man created god. man has a need for him. man feels despair and questions life's purpose, and creating a god that will save us in the afterlife and is all-knowing gives us peace of mind in this life. it's no coincidence that those who turn to god have some feeling of being lost or that they are missing something in life. the hunter then pounces on its prey.

someone said it best in the other thread: in ancient times, men of power telling his subjects that god speaks to him and he has the power of god was the perfect way of keeping everyone in line. man created god to instill fear in other men. the church, ancient and present, has been controlling humanity since the dawn of time.

and just to be clear: no, I'm not talking about the illuminati or other conspiracy theories.

Hugh Freaking Dillon · January 2010

dpmay wrote:

what is more arrogant - believing a god answers your prayers, or telling someone that they are hurting their species because of their religious beliefs? i think it's the second...

neither: religious folk that go around telling you they "know" that your life is not complete, and that they have all the answers you seek.

markin ball · January 2010

dpmay wrote:

i know there is a similar discussion going on in another thread, but i have not read all 30-some-odd pages, some i'm gonna keep posting here...

and besides, it was the video originally posted in this thread that got me interested in replying.

there seems to be sentiment in this thread (and the other one) that one of the things that bother some people about some christians is that they act very certain, sure of themselves, and act like the athiest or agnostic perspective is somehow immoral, and that it is their duty to convert non-believers.

i am here to point out that in fact some athiests do exactly the same thing - and it bothers me that their positions are considered rational, logical, reasonable, rather than just as judgemental as the christians they are attacking.

case in point: what if i believe the evidence for god's existense is completely overwhelming and say

"your non-religious beliefs hurt you personally and hurt us as a species becasue they are delusional. disbelief in any god is complete nonsense."

i think most nonbelievers would be either annoyed or offended. however, this is exactly what the guy in the original video said - just take out the "non-" and "dis". and no one has attacked his position as judgemental.

we have a lot of super-atheists like richard dawkins and christoher hitchens writing books, convincing intelligent people that belief in god in general and christianity in particular cannot be rational. but that is simply not so.

I prefer an agnostic point of view rather than "super-atheism" however I don't think belief in a god is rational. The existence of a god, or anything, is possible, but it is just one possibility, of which there is no detectable evidence for, among an infinite amount of possibilities, most of which humans may have not even thought of. There are many common arguments for the existence of a god, however are all undone by the same logic used to present them.

dpmay · January 2010

Johnny Sitar wrote:

dpmay wrote:

essentially every culture that has ever existed believed in something. doesn't prove god's existence, of course not, but it is worth considering...

this is exactly the reason I believe man created god. man has a need for him. man feels despair and questions life's purpose, and creating a god that will save us in the afterlife and is all-knowing gives us peace of mind in this life. it's no coincidence that those who turn to god have some feeling of being lost or that they are missing something in life. the hunter then pounces on its prey.

someone said it best in the other thread: in ancient times, men of power telling his subjects that god speaks to him and he has the power of god was the perfect way of keeping everyone in line. man created god to instill fear in other men. the church, ancient and present, has been controlling humanity since the dawn of time.

and just to be clear: no, I'm not talking about the illuminati or other conspiracy theories.

these are both good points. it is certainly possible that man created god in his image - i cannot prove god exists and will never tell you i can. however i do have some thoughts about this first issue:

first, either god exists or god does not exist, right? i mean we can't really have much compromise on that particular issue; some kind of half-existent god i guess makes no sense. so if god exists, god exists. it doesn't matter whether or not people wish it to be so. and, frankly, there are people who want god not to exist. does this make it more likely god does not exist, because some people wish it?

as to the despair and questioning of life's purpose, well, everybody feels that, right? you, me, super-fundamentalist right wing christian whackos and vitriolic anti-god crusaders. in fact, i think the despair and questioning is one of the more universal things we humans share. i do not claim this proves the existence of god (clearly it doesn't) but it could be interpreted as indicating that we are meant to, well, seek, god. could be, right? that's my opinion.

the whole idea about religion being used as a tool to subert independent thought, you know, keep people in line, i agree wholeheartedly, this has happened. in fact (as you know) it still happens today. it pisses me off like nothing else to see people misinterpret what i view as a pretty simple message and use it to keep others down, in any way. but again, this does not mean the essential belief is either false or true. i mentioned those guys who falsified the climate change data (or whatever) above, and i think it might be a fair comparison - just becasue some scientists did unethical things to promote their agenda doesn't mean their underlying beliefs are false. (quite the contrary in this case i think...) and one last point on this topic: the actual message of jesus that the gospels contain is definitely not one of subservience to men of power or the church. quite the contrary, jesus kind of told people to upset the current social and religious order - and was killed for it. churches trying to wring subservience out of believers to follow a particular, rigid religious order is, i believe, a gross misinterpretation.

Johnny Sitar wrote:

dpmay wrote:

what is more arrogant - believing a god answers your prayers, or telling someone that they are hurting their species because of their religious beliefs? i think it's the second...

neither: religious folk that go around telling you they "know" that your life is not complete, and that they have all the answers you seek.

yes, that is extremely fucking arrogant. i do not know your life is incomplete. if i were to assume, i would guess parts of your life are very rewarding and parts are difficult, exactly like my own life. i believe in god, and i am a christian, but i definitely do not have all the answers you seek - hell, i don't have all the answers i seek (maybe i'm not doing it right, haha).

i am in this thread because i want to learn. i want to have intellectually honest conversations about faith and god - with both people who think like me, and people who think i am completely full of shit. that is sometimes a very hard thing to do - gets really emotional, or whatever. oh, and i also want to refute the initial claim, evident in the original video in this thread, that belief in god cannot be rational.

phew!

dpmay · January 2010

markin ball wrote:

dpmay wrote:

i know there is a similar discussion going on in another thread, but i have not read all 30-some-odd pages, some i'm gonna keep posting here...

and besides, it was the video originally posted in this thread that got me interested in replying.

there seems to be sentiment in this thread (and the other one) that one of the things that bother some people about some christians is that they act very certain, sure of themselves, and act like the athiest or agnostic perspective is somehow immoral, and that it is their duty to convert non-believers.

i am here to point out that in fact some athiests do exactly the same thing - and it bothers me that their positions are considered rational, logical, reasonable, rather than just as judgemental as the christians they are attacking.

case in point: what if i believe the evidence for god's existense is completely overwhelming and say

"your non-religious beliefs hurt you personally and hurt us as a species becasue they are delusional. disbelief in any god is complete nonsense."

i think most nonbelievers would be either annoyed or offended. however, this is exactly what the guy in the original video said - just take out the "non-" and "dis". and no one has attacked his position as judgemental.

we have a lot of super-atheists like richard dawkins and christoher hitchens writing books, convincing intelligent people that belief in god in general and christianity in particular cannot be rational. but that is simply not so.

I prefer an agnostic point of view rather than "super-atheism" however I don't think belief in a god is rational. The existence of a god, or anything, is possible, but it is just one possibility, of which there is no detectable evidence for, among an infinite amount of possibilities, most of which humans may have not even thought of. There are many common arguments for the existence of a god, however are all undone by the same logic used to present them.

good. i like to see an agnostic point of view because that means that you, like me, aren't completely sure about what's what. i think we can have much more intersting conversations in the grey area...

and when i said "suppose i believe the evidence for god's existense is completely overwhelming" i was just framing my point in the terms the guy with the video used. i in fact don't believe the evidence for god is "overwhelming." personally, i think there is a lot of circumstantial evidence that indicates god does exist. but my faith is (on my good-faith days) more than the sum of these indicators.

as such, i would never try to prove to you that god does exist using only logic. however, i believe i can use logic as one tool among many to lead me to the conclusion that god is real. and this isn't so off base, is it? i mean a lot of what we tiny humans hold most dear is a weird, sometimes screwed up jumble of logic, emotion, evidence, hope, empiricism and faith.

(and sorry for saying "super-atheist" - i guess that could come across as kind of offensive to some...)

know1 · January 2010

Are there 10 questions the dumb Christian must answer?

Gern Blansten · January 2010

dpmay wrote:

Gern Blansten wrote:

Honestly the one thing that bothers me the most about christians is their arrogance

Not all christians certainly but I would say more than 50% have blinders on. Facebook is a good example....people constantly posting praises to god for their kids getting good grades, asking for prayers because they are sick, etc. (maybe they should have prayed to not get sick?)

It boils down to arrogance and ignorance and it's extremely annoying.

i agree - arrogance is annoying. but i would argue it is a generally human foible more than it is a specifically christian foible.

what is more arrogant - believing a god answers your prayers, or telling someone that they are hurting their species because of their religious beliefs? i think it's the second...

honestly I would say the former because we all can agree that god does not answer prayers

EddieLedBetter · January 2010

CJMST3K wrote:

Gern Blansten wrote:

10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer

Evolution happens on a long term scale, either adapting to large-scale change, or as a mutation that coincidentally helps that one creature survive, and it's spawn keep the mutation, and continue on with the mutation/evolution. Evolution does not solve an individual creature losing an arm, leg, eyeball, etc - unless it's a problem that is so common with that species, that the creature evolves it's own defense, such as a lizard's tail which regenerates.

Ok... I answered your direct question. Will you answer maybe a few of the 10 questions?

(GB - would you please transcribe the 10 questions from the video to make it easier for someone who is actually willing to answer to do so?)

So if men are capable of evil and evolution changes things to fix problems common with species why havent we seen this take place? Men have gotten progressively worse.

No one has ever actually witnessed evolution take place within species yet people put faith in it. Granted there is evidence that it took place but there is also evidence for a creative God.

What is the opposing view of why amputees are the way they are? How does one come to be an amputee in the first place? Is that Gods fault? They chose to fight in a war. Someone chose to drink and drive or talk on their cell phone instead of paying attention and got into a wreck. Maybe the person didnt want to go to the doctor to take care of an infection and lost a limb. Bad things happen all the time. You wouldnt learn not to touch the stove if it didnt leave you burned for life.

and no Gerny ole boy we dont agree that God doesnt answer prayers.

redrock · January 2010

EddieLedBetter wrote:

No one has ever actually witnessed evolution take place within species yet people put faith in it. Granted there is evidence that it took place but there is also evidence for a creative God. .

There is hard evidence of evolution of a species. What hard evidence is there of a creative god if you do not have 'faith'? None. It's all based on beliefs.

Gern Blansten · January 2010

CJMST3K wrote:

(GB - would you please transcribe the 10 questions from the video to make it easier for someone who is actually willing to answer to do so?)

Here you go...

1. Why won't god heal amputees? (1:22)

2. Why are there so many starving people in our world? (2:27)

3. Why does god demand the death of so many innocent people in the bible? (3:10)

4. Why does the bible contain so much anti-scientific nonsense? (4:00)

5. Why is god such a huge proponent of slavery in the bible? (5:10)

6. Why do bad things happen to good people? (5:26)

7. Why is there no evidence of Jesus' miracles? (5:33)

8. How do we explain the fact that Jesus has never appeared to you? (5:43)

9. Why would Jesus want you to eat his body and drink his blood? (5:59)

10. Why to christians get divorced at the same rate of non-Christians? (6:17)

To believe in god you must make all sorts of strange rationalizations and excuses....to those that do not believe in god all the answers make complete sense.

10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer

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