On-line dating? I give up!

Ms. Haiku · October 2009

This is a little off topic, but a view of how my perception of the word "girl" has changed.
I remember a few + years ago I heard or read an interview with Eddie Vedder and it was mentioned that he was lost as sea with a couple people who he referred to as *girls* I was wondering what their parents were doing for the rescue. Later I found out that the people he referred to as girls were adults.

Up to that point I just didn't hear women being referred to as girls in my circle. However, it took about a year for me to realize that if I only *accept* the reference to women as women then I disregard a culture who uses the word girl to describe any woman, and it's not used maliciously. Quite a different way of thinking. I still get a little confused when women are referred to as girls, and I still refer to women as women, but I realize culturally it's not of malicious intent when women are referred to as girls as I used to think.

I had to rethink what I meant as girl particulary since I'm more comfortable calling a man a guy instead of a man. I thought I was a hypocrite, and yet I cast the first stone.

This isn't really a response to a previous post, but rather inspired by a couple posts.

soulsinging · October 2009

Ms. Haiku wrote:

This is a little off topic, but a view of how my perception of the word "girl" has changed.
I remember a few + years ago I heard or read an interview with Eddie Vedder and it was mentioned that he was lost as sea with a couple people who he referred to as *girls* I was wondering what their parents were doing for the rescue. Later I found out that the people he referred to as girls were adults.

Up to that point I just didn't hear women being referred to as girls in my circle. However, it took about a year for me to realize that if I only *accept* the reference to women as women then I disregard a culture who uses the word girl to describe any woman, and it's not used maliciously. Quite a different way of thinking. I still get a little confused when women are referred to as girls, and I still refer to women as women, but I realize culturally it's not of malicious intent when women are referred to as girls as I used to think.

This isn't really a response to a previous post, but rather inspired by a couple posts.

that's kinda what i was getting at. people key in on that word to an unreal extent. i feel like i need to censor myself in any discussion on this issue because the second you use the world 'girl' instead of 'woman', even though me and every guy i know uses them interchangeably to mean the exact same thing, people jump on that and suddenly nothing else you've said matters becos they've diagnosed your entire problems as being 'trying to date immature girls instead of grown up women.' it's absurd and it's why i mentioned semantics earlier. there is no difference in the meaning of the two words to an average guy. i feel like a guy in a victorian novel having to make sure i have to use the proper honorific lest i mortally insult the honor of the WOMEN around here

and it's just a lazy way to simplify and explain things that are by their very nature irrational and inexplicable... human emotions and behavior.

locked · October 2009

Hmmm... "I've got a feeling"... as PJ once sang...

(I know .. beatles cover but it works here)

dimitrispearljam · October 2009

locked wrote:

Hmmm... "I've got a feeling"... as PJ once sang...

(I know .. beatles cover but it works here)

decides2dream · October 2009

soulsinging wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

1. how are your comments even applicable here?

seems to me cate is focusing not on age, but on maturity? in either scenario, the woman is 35 so it's got nada to do with 40 year old women, or any such nonsense of women thinking men should always want a woman of that age. it has EVERYthing to do with following flagg's joke post and saying any woman that hung up on wanting that BS, wanting some guy to affect all that....well, that woman is far more girly-immature, than womanly-mature who wants a man for who he is. youth and beauty are awesome....all should enjoy, when/while they can. however, as it lasts for no one, it's good to enjoy the later years too.

btw - i read a LOT of projection in posts like these. i don't know of any woman who 'hates' young women, or girls, tho i know you like to think we all do. and 'real women' come at all ages, not just over 30....in fact, there are lots of 40+ year old 'girls' still running around. also, not all looks fade either. nor were/are all girls/women game players. just sayin'....tho i know you enjoy dealing in absolutes...

2. one can be attracted to anyone they like, but doesn't make you a hypocrite to point out how silly it is for a guy not to try being something he's not and/or a woman hung up soley on the superficials. however, fantasy is always fun...no matter your age.

i just see it as an incredibly lame avoidance technique that's used way too often around here. spot the word 'girl', whip up a post dismissing and ignoring anything the poster is actually dealing with and put all the problems down to them being "girls." i'm well aware it's a maturity thing, but it's still annoying. sometimes shit just doesn't work out. sometimes good people are shitty to people. sometimes great women just aren't attracted to you. and sometimes people stick to older notions of dating. to write off all the factors that go into two people connecting in favor of a token "well, you're just chasing girls and you need a real mature woman" is lame. none of the problems listed in here are unique to immature people... there are plenty of perfectly balanced and normal individuals that may engage in the behaviors discussed because it's what they're looking for in a mate or it's who they are. the things listed are perfectly normal and don't necessarily mean a given woman is immature. "oh god, she talks about herself." well, did you or did you not want to get to know her? maybe she was doing it because you're socially awkward and can't hold a comfortable convo. maybe she was nervous as hell. but no, we shall assume that all people who do not hold the classic pj fanbase values of being super independent and no nonsense in the best of the grunge sense are all just immature folks that haven't grown up to be as amazingly poised as us.

it's rather akin to the simple dismissive generalizations you often accuse me of making. and i find it hilarious how quick some people are to pounce on that 4-letter word like it's the clincher in any discussion of dating. i know i'm full of shit and most of what i do is devoted to making myself feel better... the problem isn't me and what i'm doing, it's that girls are bitches and don't appreciate what a catch i am. i see the girl/woman brigade the same way... like it's a pep talk being given to prop up their own self-image and boost their own confidence, rather than actually help the OP with the issues they're up against. it's not something specific to this thread or the people in it, i just see it all the time.

dating's a pain in the ass, and you're going to strike out way more often than you connect. the frustration is understandable, but let's not act like clearly any woman that does not like the OP just hasn't grown up yet. i guarantee that every one of us has done everything on that initial list at one time or other, because none of us is perfect and it's human behavior. it sucks for him now, but anytime i see a post about how 'women' are so much better than 'girls' i roll my eyes because it's a lazy statement and means nothing other than cheap cliched comfort to those trying to convince themselves that they're the latter and that's ok despite the fact that they're afraid the former is what other people really want.

and i know she's not a hypocrite for that, i was just teasing becos we'd had a conversation about it recently.

and none of it, again, is/was applicable to cat'es post, that's all. i think you possibly see it in one light, whereas the comments, here or elsewhere, aren't necessarily meant as you personally infer. it's a 'shorthand' if you will, and hey...reject it all you like. however, i think many of us, male and female alike...find the descriptor of woman not a girl...or a man, not a boy....perfectly reflects what one is trying to convey. you have assigned a lot more meaning to it.

perhaps make note of this post of yours when you go for the cheap, lazy stereotype comments in the future eh?

as to the part i bolded....no one has done that. it was ONe post, between flagg's joke and cate's comment, and none of it even remotely suggested that. again, i think you are choosing to see more there than there really is.

and if you truly want a girl over a woman, you obviously don't understand how the terms are being used in these conversation. a 'girl' can be a woman at 18-20....just like a 50 year old woman can be a 'girl.' THAT is what it's about; mindset....not age. if you want a selfish, immature, game-playing 'girl' over a mature, independent, knows herself and wants 'woman'...more power to ya. and no, i don't think anyone is afraid of that. any man who does desire that, well, he's a boy...... :P and he is certainly entitled to want it, and have it! you seem under some delusion that women are deluding themselves, are somehow jealous of younger women and make comments to build themselves up against that. perhaps there are women like that, of course...but the whole girl/woman thing is not about competition, and it certainly isn't ageist.

soulsinging · October 2009

decides2dream wrote:

and if you truly want a girl over a woman, you obviously don't understand how the terms are being used in these conversation. a 'girl' can be a woman at 18-20....just like a 50 year old woman can be a 'girl.' THAT is what it's about; mindset....not age. if you want a selfish, immature, game-playing 'girl' over a mature, independent, knows herself and wants 'woman'...more power to ya. and no, i don't think anyone is afraid of that. any man who does desire that, well, he's a boy...... :P and he is certainly entitled to want it, and have it! you seem under some delusion that women are deluding themselves, are somehow jealous of younger women and make comments to build themselves up against that. perhaps there are women like that, of course...but the whole girl/woman thing is not about competition, and it certainly isn't ageist.

this is exactly what i'm talking about, and haiku nailed it. there is NO difference between girl and woman when a guy uses them. i don't say 'girl' meaning i want a young girl or having it refer to anything to do with their mindset. if you're talking about the mindset, then talk about the mindset. but girl and woman refer to the same thing and it doesn't have a damn thing to do with their mindset or behaviors. it has to do with certain anatomical parts i appreciate getting close to... nothing more. so i find it so bizarre that women place such importance on making sure you use the right term, like you do here. i say girl meaning "human being with the sex characteristics of females of the species" and you and all the other women on here read it as "selfish, immature, game-playing" when that has nothing to do with what i'm talking about. when i say woman i mean "human being with the sex characteristics of females of the species." you read it "mature, independent, knows herself and wants" which also has nothing to do with what i'm talking about.

you can use 'guys' as a generic catch all to refer to men. that's how we use the word 'girls.' i have never in my life heard a guy friend counsel a girl that "you've been dating boys, you need to find a MAN" like the choice of word meant a damn thing. THAT is what annoys me... the attaching of significance to the choice of word and all the bizarre connotations you and other women project onto it (since you brought up projection earlier). it's baffling and annoying when im trying to make a point and say girl meaning 'she has a vagina' and suddenly im in a debate on aging and maturity and shallowness and other nonsense. and it transcends this thread and cate's reply. we can't use 'chicks' anymore becos it's considered demeaning or dismissive, and we can't use bitches or hoes or anything else, so all we have left is girl and woman and now you're reading so damn much into those words it's impossible to have a conversation anymore

i mean, when i say i have a girlfriend, does that mean i'm somehow implying whoever i am dating is childish and shallow and selfish, becos i used girl instead of womanfriend? no, of course not. yet yuo and others here have very specific traits you associate with one word over the other and i've never understood where the hell that came from? it's something that always drove me nuts and cate's joke just reminded me of it.

decides2dream · October 2009

soulsinging wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

and if you truly want a girl over a woman, you obviously don't understand how the terms are being used in these conversation. a 'girl' can be a woman at 18-20....just like a 50 year old woman can be a 'girl.' THAT is what it's about; mindset....not age. if you want a selfish, immature, game-playing 'girl' over a mature, independent, knows herself and wants 'woman'...more power to ya. and no, i don't think anyone is afraid of that. any man who does desire that, well, he's a boy...... :P and he is certainly entitled to want it, and have it! you seem under some delusion that women are deluding themselves, are somehow jealous of younger women and make comments to build themselves up against that. perhaps there are women like that, of course...but the whole girl/woman thing is not about competition, and it certainly isn't ageist.

this is exactly what i'm talking about, and haiku nailed it. there is NO difference between girl and woman when a guy uses them. i don't say 'girl' meaning i want a young girl or having it refer to anything to do with their mindset. if you're talking about the mindset, then talk about the mindset. but girl and woman refer to the same thing and it doesn't have a damn thing to do with their mindset or behaviors. it has to do with certain anatomical parts i appreciate getting close to... nothing more. so i find it so bizarre that women place such importance on making sure you use the right term, like you do here. i say girl meaning "human being with the sex characteristics of females of the species" and you and all the other women on here read it as "selfish, immature, game-playing" when that has nothing to do with what i'm talking about. when i say woman i mean "human being with the sex characteristics of females of the species." you read it "mature, independent, knows herself and wants" which also has nothing to do with what i'm talking about.

you can use 'guys' as a generic catch all to refer to men. that's how we use the word 'girls.' i have never in my life heard a guy friend counsel a girl that "you've been dating boys, you need to find a MAN" like the choice of word meant a damn thing. THAT is what annoys me... the attaching of significance to the choice of word and all the bizarre connotations you and other women project onto it (since you brought up projection earlier). it's baffling and annoying when im trying to make a point and say girl meaning 'she has a vagina' and suddenly im in a debate on aging and maturity and shallowness and other nonsense. and it transcends this thread and cate's reply. we can't use 'chicks' anymore becos it's considered demeaning or dismissive, and we can't use bitches or hoes or anything else, so all we have left is girl and woman and now you're reading so damn much into those words it's impossible to have a conversation anymore

i mean, when i say i have a girlfriend, does that mean i'm somehow implying whoever i am dating is childish and shallow and selfish, becos i used girl instead of womanfriend? no, of course not. yet yuo and others here have very specific traits you associate with one word over the other and i've never understood where the hell that came from? it's something that always drove me nuts and cate's joke just reminded me of it.

ahhhhh....as a former english major, i would've thought the idea of context would have some bearing. again, that is what it is about. i am not 'reading' anything into the word, at all. i am reading it in the context in which it is used, and thus it makes a handy descriptor imo.

btw - i use the term chicks ALL the time!
and yes, i refer to my female friends as girlfriends often, and once again...it's all context. obviously, in cate's post, a faaarrrrrr different - and i would've thought - obvious context. it can be used as both ya know, life is rarely black and white, only one way....myriad choices, and contexts, exist.

anyhooo...sure, be annoyed! no one, least of all me, was trying to take away your 'right' to be annoyed. i merely questioned your response to cate, and i still stand by my assessment that your over-reactions to her post really are not applicable. obviously, we don't have to agree on any of this...:D

locked · October 2009

give up man..

you cannot outlast D2D..

trust me..

decides2dream · October 2009

locked wrote:

give up man..

you cannot outlast D2D..

trust me..

hahahahahahahahahaha.
i love ya my friend!
me on the road, on crutches, at concerts.....give ya a tip-off?

btw - i well imagine you falling hard for a woman, who happens to have all the physical attributes of a girl. win-win eh?

and hey, i think most of us women would feel the same for men. it does indeed go both ways....

soulsinging · October 2009

decides2dream wrote:

ahhhhh....as a former english major, i would've thought the idea of context would have some bearing. again, that is what it is about. i am not 'reading' anything into the word, at all. i am reading it in the context in which it is used, and thus it makes a handy descriptor imo.

btw - i use the term chicks ALL the time!
and yes, i refer to my female friends as girlfriends often, and once again...it's all context. obviously, in cate's post, a faaarrrrrr different - and i would've thought - obvious context. it can be used as both ya know, life is rarely black and white, only one way....myriad choices, and contexts, exist.

anyhooo...sure, be annoyed! no one, least of all me, was trying to take away your 'right' to be annoyed. i merely questioned your response to cate, and i still stand by my assessment that your over-reactions to her post really are not applicable. obviously, we don't have to agree on any of this...:D

yeah, but i was a guy long before i was an english major. and as an english major that went to law school, i am so tired of fine print

i'm in a job where using the wrong word among 2 synonyms can cost someone their entire livelihood, so it flips my lid when i am blowing off steam and have to use the same verbal precision in something as casually absurd as a thread about internet dating on an internet forum. cate's post didn't cause it, it's just a pet peeve of mine that she reminded me of and i felt like posting about at great length becos it's 5 minutes where i don't have to think about whether something is devised, granted, gifted, delegated, or bestowed.

girls and women are the same damn thing! :twisted: but i'll use chicks from now on if that will clarify matters. so start taking bets on how long before someone gets offended by me doing that, hehe.

soulsinging · October 2009

locked wrote:

give up man..

you cannot outlast D2D..

trust me..

don't worry, i'm a masochist.

Ms. Haiku · October 2009

Speaking of the cougar role . . . is it a verb - to cougar.

For instance, do you say I would like to be your cougar or;
Today we go cougaring
I've cougared you
Let's stop by the soda fountain and cougar
I was going to cougar him, but I'm too young etc etc etc . . .

It's quite the loaded verb, eh?

decides2dream · October 2009

soulsinging wrote:

locked wrote:

give up man..

you cannot outlast D2D..

trust me..

don't worry, i'm a masochist.

see, i knew there was something i liked about you....;)

and my only point in all of this was simply, NO one was giving shit as to how you or any man may use woman or girl interchangeably. again, it is usually obvious by the context if it is meant simply as the same, or as a slag.

catefrances wrote:

Flagg wrote:

Hey locked - First off, get really skinny if you aren't already. I mean really skinny. We should be able to count your ribs. Then, avoid the sun for months until you are pasty white. Then, grow your hair out a little. If it isn't black, dye it. Then wear just a touch of makeup. Not so much as to notice it, but just enough to keep people guessing. Start listening to Muse and familiarize yourself with all things Twilight. Get a slight British tinge to your accent and walk around looking all sensitive and depressed.

You won't be able to beat back all of the 35 year old women that will come knocking your door down.

hey! locked.

DO NOT follow this advice. unless you want a 35 year old girl and not a 35 year old woman.

YOU seemed to take the offense for cate choosing to illustrate her point by using the girl/woman thing. flagg DID use the term woman, so no bashing there. and personally, i thought cate's point was WELL illustrated (and appropriately used in context) by such a simple statement.

but go ahead and be annoyed by it, but many of us find it illustrative. that is all.

locked m'dear...mea culpa from trampling on your fine online dating thread. :oops: ya know i love ya, and i have given you some good plugs in here! just got side-tracked, as quite often happens, with language discussion.....

soulsinging · October 2009

decides2dream wrote:

YOU seemed to take the offense for cate choosing to illustrate her point by using the girl/woman thing. flagg DID use the term woman, so no bashing there. and personally, i thought cate's point was WELL illustrated (and appropriately used in context) by such a simple statement.

but go ahead and be annoyed by it, but many of us find it illustrative. that is all.

there's a world of difference between offense and annoyance. like i said, it's just a pet peeve of mine. i knew exactly what she was doing, i just think it's a tired cliche. what's stranger, me being bothered by it, or how much it seems to bother you that i'm bothered by it?

CHANGEinWAVES · October 2009

I don't remember if I've posted in this thread or not, but I found the guy I'm currently seeing on a dating site. I was a bit embarrassed about it at first but I don't go to bars to hunt for men so this worked out better for me. He's a sweetie, though not a huge Pearl Jam fan (yet

). I figured I'd get him to be full blown after the Halloween show but he's on call and can't make the show. He used to follow the Black Crowes so I know it's just a matter of time till I sway him

I did have a bunch of duds for dates though before him and I met up.

A satellite forever orbiting · October 2009

locked wrote:

- Constantly talk about nothing but themsleves.

- Expect to be provided for (money, gifts,
- Have an overblown opinion of their own attractiveness level.
- Have a very little sense of humor..

thats true of most of the women that i've encountered online and off.

Whizbang · October 2009

mrvedderson wrote:

Whizbang wrote:

But you can say the same for a lot of people who are unhappily married/in a relationship. There is some deep seeded reason as to why they don't leave. Most of the time, people are too afraid to be alone with themselves, afraid of what they might see. So they either stick it out unhappily to avoid being alone or they constantly jump from one relationship to the next to avoid being alone.

As for me, I've tried the on-line thing. A bit too much work for something I am content not having. I've talked with quite a few, been on a few dates....some good, some not so good. I've had just as much "luck", so to speak, by meeting people through friends and family. Didn't seem to be a great use of my time.

I agree, if you want it to work, you have to weed through a lot of BS...including men who love to hear themselves talk and constantly interrupt you to change the subject to where they worked or how much they hate their mother, claim to be Sir Lancelot looking for his Queen (asking if I was willing to be said Queen), men who ask if a girlfriend in one of my photos was available if I wasn't interested, men who claim to want an independent woman but are indignant when you offer to pay your own way for dinner (quite possibly the same men who then complain women only want men to pay for everything). Even better is the man who is suddenly insulted that, if it gets to the point of a physical relationship, you are actually responsible enough to have condoms. I find that though some men claim to be attracted to a woman who is quite capable of living on her own without "needing" a man are threatened by that and seek to change it.

That could very well be my deep seeded reason - I love my independence, love who I am. I rebel against anyone who threatens that. and no, I am not kidding on the Sir Lancelot thing. I do hate mowing my lawn though....

i'll mow your lawn, but dont ask me any questions.

I shall provide lawn mower & gas....and your beer of preference. Be sure to mow on Sundays because I like being a football sloth and ignoring everyone. I'll leave the beer on the porch.

PearlOfAGirl · October 2009

So is this what I've got to look forward to after my divorce? :shock:

Gary Carter · October 2009

i once dated a board member who lived in seattle. it was fun times. a few days ago i was looking through the pm's under my other name just for fun and some of them were from her and i just read them and smiled. it's nice to finally be at peace with certain things in life.

ZiggyStar · October 2009

metsfan wrote:

i once dated a board member who lived in seattle. it was fun times. a few days ago i was looking through the pm's under my other name just for fun and some of them were from her and i just read them and smiled. it's nice to finally be at peace with certain things in life.

Under your other name? :?

On-line dating? I give up!

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