Jesus and Eddie: someone has to say it

Evergreen85024 wrote:

I think Eddie stated his beliefs in a recent interview...

"Is there one book that you have read that has been life-changing for you?
Jennifer Coppertino, New York

One that jumps to mind is Cat’s Cradle by Kurt Vonnegut. He talks about being a humanist, about it being a little different from being an atheist, which had a profound effect on me. I ended up reading pretty much everything he wrote after that, two, three, four, five times. The only other author who’s had a similar effect has been Charles Bukowski, who opens your eyes to the fact that there’s beauty in everybody’s life. The life of someone on the lowest rung of the ladder is as colourful and meaningful, if not more, as some character in an F Scott Fitzgerald novel. So it makes you realize that we are all individuals and we all have something going on that is worthy of introspection and respect."

and


"You’ve been lined with David Lynch’s Transcendental Meditation movement; you’ve worn an Aleister Crowley t-shirt and you’ve stated that you’re an atheist. What do you personally believe in and how did you get there?
Stephan Rott, Germany

Well it changes! And I think we have to be flexible. Any belief system that is inflexible, closed off to other belief systems, is profoundly unhealthy. I also think that if you look at life as a long line of evolutionary changes that started billions of years ago, from little things crawling in the mud, and the you realise where we’ve got to now, that is a remarkable set of circumstances. There is more magic in that, for me, than someone creating the planet in six days and taking a day off. When you realize how long humanity has taken to get to this point, it makes you respect another person’s life in a deeper and broader sense. I wouldn’t’ think of killing anybody because their lineage goes back to the primordial seas, not because there’s some eye in the sky, looking out for how many commandments you’re going to break."

wow....good stuff!

fisttothejaw wrote:

Wow. I'm probably an idiot for entering this fray, but...

These are the kinds of discussions that really energize me. First off, I am a person who believes in God, and I am a follower of Jesus. Let's get that out of the way.

With that said, though, there are a number of areas where I find myself embarrassed and at odds with those who represent my faith. The belief in God is a very mysterious prospect, and most attempts to define it, or Him, fall very short. As has been said before, the central theme, though, where Christ is concerned, is love.

His followers, however, have been sidetracked by moral crusades, political involvement, and scientific debate. I can not understand why we would spend so much time trying to defend a literal 6-day creation theory, or the word "God" in the pledge of allegiance, when there is so much pain, poverty, crime, war and general injustice to battle against. I wish we would use our voices to comfort scared teenage mothers, rather than shouting judgements at them when they enter an abortion clinic. I wish we would focus our efforts on living peacefully with the Muslim world, rather than confusing military aggression with "taking the right side" in some bizarre holy war.

But we don't. And that's why the followers of Christ are viewed as small, narrow-minded people who are obsessed with a set of rules and precepts - not as a group of people who seek to better their world with acts and words of kindness. That's what we should be.

Childish? Maybe. But I had something when I was a child... and adulthood has been trying to take it from me, year by year. I wouldn't mind having it back.

And back to the topic of Pearl Jam, I know Ed and I don't see everything (maybe anything) the same way from a faith standpoint. But in so many ways, I find common ground in his lyrics. And I can't say the same thing about a lot of artists who DO profess belief in Jesus. My soul resonates with truth, and that's what I get from Pearl Jam. It may not always be MY truth, but I hear truth nonetheless. I feel the same way about P. Townshend, J. Lennon, and a host of others -

So, in closing... "leave your hatred on the cross," because "it can't be said enough, all you need is love."

Peace.

now heres someone who believes in god that i can agree with

about time two

the problem with religion is the people who are the face of them... I am a Catholic, but Im really ashamed of what the Pope did some years ago by covering what the founder of the Legionarios de Cristo was doing (while he wasnt a pope yet)... and im also ashamed and sad of what the church did during the inquisition... but it is my faith in Jesus what keeps me on this road... it is faith what matters... and I really hope Ed finds faith someday...

Devote Myself wrote:

fisttothejaw wrote:

Wow. I'm probably an idiot for entering this fray, but...

These are the kinds of discussions that really energize me. First off, I am a person who believes in God, and I am a follower of Jesus. Let's get that out of the way.

With that said, though, there are a number of areas where I find myself embarrassed and at odds with those who represent my faith. The belief in God is a very mysterious prospect, and most attempts to define it, or Him, fall very short. As has been said before, the central theme, though, where Christ is concerned, is love.

His followers, however, have been sidetracked by moral crusades, political involvement, and scientific debate. I can not understand why we would spend so much time trying to defend a literal 6-day creation theory, or the word "God" in the pledge of allegiance, when there is so much pain, poverty, crime, war and general injustice to battle against. I wish we would use our voices to comfort scared teenage mothers, rather than shouting judgements at them when they enter an abortion clinic. I wish we would focus our efforts on living peacefully with the Muslim world, rather than confusing military aggression with "taking the right side" in some bizarre holy war.

But we don't. And that's why the followers of Christ are viewed as small, narrow-minded people who are obsessed with a set of rules and precepts - not as a group of people who seek to better their world with acts and words of kindness. That's what we should be.

Childish? Maybe. But I had something when I was a child... and adulthood has been trying to take it from me, year by year. I wouldn't mind having it back.

And back to the topic of Pearl Jam, I know Ed and I don't see everything (maybe anything) the same way from a faith standpoint. But in so many ways, I find common ground in his lyrics. And I can't say the same thing about a lot of artists who DO profess belief in Jesus. My soul resonates with truth, and that's what I get from Pearl Jam. It may not always be MY truth, but I hear truth nonetheless. I feel the same way about P. Townshend, J. Lennon, and a host of others -

So, in closing... "leave your hatred on the cross," because "it can't be said enough, all you need is love."

Peace.

I'm glad you did enter the fray!!!
Well said.

I just saw them in Chicago night 1(8/23/09) and Eddie made a remark about how Bad Religion was still great and religion was still bad. I still think he and they (meaning other PJ members) believe in Love and therefore believe in God (without realizing it maybe b/c God is love), but I think they are afraid of being labeled as belonging to a certain religion. And as someone else had posted, he stated himself that his views are always changing.

I love the Fixer. Again, I can hear God-like symbolism in the lyrics, but I guess I always look for it! Very positive. Can't wait to hear the rest of the album.

i dont think there afraid of anything like that i just think they dont believe, and you can be positive with out god, it works for me

october22 wrote:

might be slightly off topic and i'm not trying to be a dick but if ed believed in jesus ("christ", that is) i'd lose a lot of respect for him. i don't have time to get involved in this thread too deeply but i feel bad for guys like the o.p.

you seem like a decent dude who's not trying to use his religion to hurt anyone but it's sad to see an adult believe in children's stories for comfort in a confusing world.

if it brings you comfort, that's nice. i just hope there aren't any kids involved in or being subjected to this belief system because there is an entire universe of knowledge they won't be privy to. it is a sad thing for any human being to be born into such an exciting time of scientific discovery only to have it brainwashed away from them while they're still not of mind to see through it.

atheism is the only conclusion at this point and to deny that, is to deny the progress we've made as a species in the last few hundred years (or several million depending how you look at it).

Its not sad to be subjected to the designated teachings of a Christian upbringing...it is child abuse. To tell a kid not to question; to tell a kid that it is a virtue to suspend critical thinking and to suspend the process of seeking truth through evidence is literally child abuse. A child's brain, for evolutionary need and process, is so impressionable that it believes everything that is taught to it. This malleability of what the brain will retain shows up in obvious ways.....like the belief that to sacrifice a goat will allow a great crop yield...a young brain cannot tell the difference between good advice and bad advice until it can test it. So, this manifests itself with the arrogance and deep seeded belief in the 'gut feeling' that causes so much hatred in this country. Faith.....faith.....faith.....it is the complete opposite of truth. It is the lack of need to back anything up or question anything. If the person designated as the head of the clan says it is true, it has to be....and that is extremism at the purist level. Religious Extremism is and always has been the most destructive force on this planet....whether Christian or Islamic or any other religion. If you believe God is guiding you and that you are fulfilling god's will, you have an license to ignorance and a license to cause as much death and suffering as we have witnessed over the history of man. Extreme religion is just one of many sicknesses that cause this, but it is the most consistent and the one still handled with white gloves. You can't touch it! I am a huge fan of Richard Dawkins and intelligence. The quest of the scientist is to move closer and closer to the truth of the physical world.....Religion has a quest to defend the monopoly they have on what they claim is the entire truth, already figured out. Religion is racism, it has infected our nation, it has been a catalyst for ignorance and you cannot seperate the extremists from the people who have the best intentions and who do live honorable, beautiful lives. This is a weakest link theory/thought, and the people that manipulate and seize power and wealth are protected by the entire system...you cannot seperate them...the symptoms or illnesses are all stemming from a system that is the sickness. The people that cause all the suffering are all of those associated, not just those giving commands; because anyone in that system protects those that "give religion a bad name" by their own the lack of questioning and self-inspection. Funny that evolution (a scientific theory - and the mere fact that some people will say its not proven and called a theory is amazing and a whole other topic) is brought up as something that has been forced down some peoples throats.....Christianity has evolved along the same exact lines as the theory extends. Christianity has only survived through its own incredible evolution that has a timeline, a history line and a purpose to the changes. Anyway...Ill step off my soap box for a while. Just consider how quickly some of you want to react and say that I am being abusive or attacking, but when you break down what is said on the two sides, the religion foundational side gets to say basically the same things, but are just not used to ever experiencing a pushback. That is why so many reactions to what I right is usually "you are part of the problem". It is almost as if the mere fact of me questioning what they believe is an offense, let alone the content...the content is pure blasphemy! And if you have followed this at all, you will get what I mean.

You dont have to worry about Eddie believing in god or Jesus. I am shocked that anyone can take his lyrics for anything other than disdainful expressions for the pain and abuse caused by a cancerous system....and if you think the lyrics are open to interpretation, then dont use them for your evidence.....just look to his direct quotes on the subject. I have heard him probably 5-6 times in concerts say "I dont believe in god"..........the last time in nashville. (I was in the front row and I heard it as clear as day...plus I keep replaying my "memory" of the show and hear it loud and clear each time) Even on the Live at the Garden show, Eddie says something like "belief in something bigger" He later comes back and tries to clarify it and stumbles by saying (non-verbatum) "I said belief is something bigger...I meant that it will all work out"

Fisttothejaw, again, you've said all that I've thought but would never be able to put into words as clearly or as well. Thanks so much. Too add anything else would be redundant!

I don't think he fixes anything...it seems to me that a lot of things are fucked up and he doesn't do a damn thing about it

It's nice that you have such a positive view I guess but damned dude if you think jesus has anything to do with anything you're nuts

oh and just because YOU believe in god doesn't prove his existence....ya know?

thanks for the recommendation...looks like a good book

If you haven't read "Losing Faith in Faith" or "Godless" by Dan Barker I would recommend those to you....he was an evangelist turned atheist and now heads the Freedom from Religion Foundation www.ffrf.org

Ed's lyrics contain all kinds of those references

Sad
Faithful
Marker in the Sand

just to name a few

fisttothejaw wrote:

Well, again - I'm probably an idiot for continuing to stay within the fray... ha ha... but I felt the need to respond to this last post -

One of the things I hear time and time again is that we (believers) are intolerant, and that we don't allow for anyone else to have a belief system. And you know what? By and large, I think the religious community has, unfortunately, earned that tag. And vedderwt, I do agree with you that extremism can a very dangerous thing. Fundamentalists often feel so driven to be completely air-tight in their doctrine, and it causes them to ignore the grey area that humanity generally occupies. And when you follow someone who taught in stories, parables, and symbols, there's quite a bit of grey area that must be accounted for!

But, Vedderwt, you seem to be cautioning against labeling your own post as an "attack," and I have to admit that it's hard not to. When you refer to raising a child in a Christian upbringing as "child abuse," call faith the "complete opposite of truth," and indicate that belief in God is a "license to ignorance and... to cause...death and suffering," then you are laboring under an extremism of your own. While I understand that many generations of Christians have done and spoken hideous things, often in the name of their faith, surely you can dig deeply enough to understand that abuse, pain, avarice, torture - those things are not our core values. And when you point your guns at extremism, I'm right there with you. But when you label all people of faith as ignorant, abusive, manipulative, etc, then your bullets are hitting me. I kept reading your post thinking, "well, vedderwt is not necessarily talking about ME. These are extremists." But then I read this line: "you cannot seperate (sic) the extremists from the people who have the best intentions and who do live honorable, beautiful lives. This is a weakest link theory/thought, and the people that manipulate and seize power and wealth are protected by the entire system...you cannot seperate (sic) them." And then I realized, "shit, vedderwt is talking about me!"

As with anyone who is going to voice an opinion with great passion, you must consider the sweep of your generalizations. To assume that, because I am a believer who was raised by Christian parents, I have never experienced "questioning or self-inspection" - well, you couldn't be more wrong!! I am an extremely introspective, questioning person, and I've held my own belief system up to a harsh light, time and time again. I have had seasons (long ones!) where I've wondered whether there even is a God at all, and if I'm nuts for basing my life's decisions on such a mad concept. I've been embarrassed and offended by the positions taken by many high-profile Christians, and I've often wondered if I wanted to be associated with them. And not to be dramatic, but I've stood at the mass grave inside a concentration camp, filled mainly with the bodies of Jews and homosexuals, and deeply lamented the intolerance my fellow Christians have shown both those people groups. But at the end of my questions, fights, discussions, tears, and whiskey bottles, I have decided to believe in God and follow Jesus. Because I have read his teachings, I have studied his life, and I realize that he is not a fat, suit-wearing, Republican preacher with a wallet full of money and his hand on the ass of a congressman. He is the embodiment of love and understanding. I do not follow the "Christian right" like a lemming, mind you. I believe in God, and I follow Jesus. And I have to say, knowing what it's taken me, knowing the tremendous "pushback" I've experienced (both inside and outside of my own soul and mind), and then to be lumped into the category of the ignorant and the arrogant - well, it's hard not to find that a little insulting, frankly. I truly don't mind you questioning what I believe. I've done that myself time and time again!

With all of that said, fight on. Continue to express your dissatisfaction with the current status quo, as far as extremism is concerned. I think people of faith need to hear and absorb criticism, as the "pushback" is a vital part of their own refinement. And we must seek to heal the wounds our cause has caused. But all I ask is that you find a place in your heart to respect those who have passionately sought, passionately questioned, but who passionately believe.

Peace.

MS7509 wrote:

I am so okay with not knowing why we are here, how we got here or where we might go. I am so okay with thinking that when I die, I'm dead, that's it. I do not know that I have a soul, and I am so okay with that. We have only scratched the surface with human thought and technology and I'm sure that our scientific thinking about some of these big questions will develop and change significantly over time. Humans may never know the real answers and I find that beautiful. There is no logical explanation for the existence of a god or intelligent designer that cannot be overturned by the same logic. And if you find comfort, peace, solace or warmth in god or spiritualty, I am okay with that, too, as long as it is respectful, understanding and loving.

agreed but your last sentence is where the problem lies...I think it is well proven that many religious people can't live within those parameters....I used to just keep my mouth shut but I'm convinced that we need to get rid of religion before we will ever have world peace

Gotta say it now
Better loud
Than too late